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Thread: Analysis of Cognitive Processes

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Analysis of Cognitive Processes

    I'm going to analyse the cognitive processes (i.e. the functions used in MBTT) and compare them with their socionical counterparts. For the descriptions of the CPs, I used this site, which I believe adequately describes them. The reason for this exercise is to show how like or unlike MBTT functions are, thus aiding future attempts to correlate, or transfer one's MBTT type to one's socionics type if they are in a state of confusion about their type.

    Te

    Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.

    Analysis: I've bolded what is essentially half of Extraverted Thinking in MBTT, for the simple reason that in socionics, it is not Te, but Ti. Augusta will illustrate this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Augusta
    When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to logically evaluate interrelations of objective static reality, or the world of objects. He also the ability to change according to his desires the interrelations between the characteristics of various objects and hence influence the objects themselves that carry these characteristics. Correct evaluation of one's interrelations with other objects helps the individual know which objects should be avoided, and which can be "hunted." Such an individual is able to set his logic — or his knowledge of objectifiable reality, patterns, laws, and correlations of the objective world — in opposition to others' knowledge. He has the ability to mould and perfect not only his own knowledge of objectifiable reality, but also that of other people. This creates a feeling of power when clashing with other people's logic or lack thereof.
    However, if you look at Augusta's Te, you will see that it may well correspond to the Te cognitive process to some degree:

    Quote Originally Posted by Augusta
    When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to [...] understand the logicalness and illogicalness of processes [...]. And the ability to apply personally and convey to others the most rational ways of doing things.
    Generally though, I believe it corresponds more to Ti.

    Ti

    Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed.

    Analysis: this is practically the same as Ti in socionics. It's what Phaedrus uses. He was clearly an INTP in MBTT, and then thought this could be transferrable to socionics, which is why he currently thinks he's an ILI.

    Fe

    The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.

    Analysis: again, this is a spitting image of Fe in socionics.

    Fi

    It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.

    Analysis: while I think this is the same as socionics Fi, I think it's a poor quality description, and doesn't adequately express many of the things related to Fi in socionical terms.

    Se

    Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.

    Analysis: with the exception of the bolded part (I don't really understand what is trying to be said here, but I don't think it's related to Se as we know it), I'd say this was socionics Se. Not in its entirety however, and this is important to note. It completely dismisses the idea of power mobilisation and awareness, will and external qualities (e.g. strength) of something. This is key - I repeat, key - to understanding socionics Se. This is what makes, for example, the ESTP so different to the SLE in MBTT.

    Si

    Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information*, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn’t taste the same or is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen**. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.

    Analysis: this, to me, appears to be a mishmash of a few different socionics functions, Si included.

    *Te or Ti
    **Perhaps Ni

    However, like Fi and Se, I don't think it adequately expresses the point of Si from a socionical point of view.

    Ne

    Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.

    Analysis: this is Ne as it is in socionics. The only thing it might need to place more emphasis on is an aptitude for noticing the hidden potential of people.

    Ni

    Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

    Analysis: I think this, too, is Ni. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but the bolded bits appear a bit like Ne to me.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Default Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes

    First off, let me extend ze kudos for an excellent topic. I'm less certain about how the outcome may turn out, but it sounds like an exceptional exercise (particularly for beginners such as me). I am however going to constrain my responses only to the few functions I understand and humbly listen to what everyone else has to say qua the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Fi

    It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.

    Analysis: while I think this is the same as socionics Fi, I think it's a poor quality description, and doesn't adequately express many of the things related to Fi in socionical terms.
    I think the Fi description is roughly analogous, though it does throw me off that (even as subjective as it may be) there isn't more emphasis on the function as a rational enterprise. Maybe that's an inadequate expression of what I'm trying to convey. It does express the sort of holism and coherency that's there between values. Perhaps it's putting it in terms of 'gut' feelings. I can kind of relate in that this is sort of how things begin, though IME these can be richly developed into principles or rules of thumb that guide action (yet also accepting that these are only 'rough', that there is always something essential that can't be captured). In that respect, I do think that the focus on Fi as it is expressed is the right direction. I'm not saying that this is the natural or inevitable path of things, but I'd be refuting myself if I denied even the possibility. The assessment of others part I think is good. Returning to the rational POV, this is the 'making sense' of another human being, of trying to vicariously experience their own world and fit all the disparate pieces into a coherent, understandable whole, in the sense of how one feels and what one desires or holds dear affects one's thinking and action.
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    machintruc's Avatar
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    Here are simplified definitions of Myersian function-attitudes (NOT "cognitive processes") that I used when I compared Socionics with 10 other typologies such as the Myersian thing.

    Se perception of present concrete data
    Si perception of past concrete data, as an experience
    Ne perception of possibilities
    Ni perception of ideas
    Te judgment according to the logic of external world
    Ti judgment according to the ideas of internal world
    Fe judgment according to social criteria of external world
    Fi judgment according to personal criteria of internal world

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    I haven't read all the definitions with care, I will, but it's a good topic.

    I think part of the confusion is this -- when you look at (say) a Te dominant's behavior, or even their approach to ideas and solving problems, there will be some Ti there as well -- and vice-versa for Ti dominants. That is why it's difficulto to differentiate descriptions of "Te types, and how they think and behave" from Te as a function, the same going for Ti types and Te.
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    Default Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes

    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2
    First off, let me extend ze kudos for an excellent topic. I'm less certain about how the outcome may turn out, but it sounds like an exceptional exercise (particularly for beginners such as me). I am however going to constrain my responses only to the few functions I understand and humbly listen to what everyone else has to say qua the rest.
    You take +Fe/-Fi to a new level. Maybe you're INTp? I'm really curious to know your type; because your politeness is vomit inducing.
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    Which I can promise you that I'm not Beta; so that rules that out.
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    and they may be
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Which I can promise you that I'm not Beta; so that rules that out.
    you may be more sure that you aren't beta than munenori is sure that he isn't INTp.

    but there are men in hospitals who seem even surer they are Napoleon.

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    Well, I'd have to actually meet munenori in person to actually know his type. In conversation the difference between +Fe and -Fe is very distinct. +Fe has more of a playful way about them. -Fe is more withdrawn, quiet, and shy. This can easily be seen when comparing ESFjs to ISFjs; or INFjs to ENFjs. ESFjs and INFjs are sort of the quiet; compassionate types. ESFps and ENFjs on the other hand tend to be playful and expressive; though they tend to go through bouts of depressive stages, and often find things that they don't like in their relationships and break them off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    -Fe is more withdrawn, quiet, and shy.
    !!!??? Have you ever encountered any real-life ESE's or what ?!

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    Reading cognitive processes descriptions helped me understand socionics functions when I started. I read them many times. They are just better written than the horrible beginner paraphrasations of bad automated text from russian websites. There are some adequate function descriptions now, but I still respect cognitive processes for helping me understand functions.
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    Default Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes

    .

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    Default Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2
    First off, let me extend ze kudos for an excellent topic. I'm less certain about how the outcome may turn out, but it sounds like an exceptional exercise (particularly for beginners such as me). I am however going to constrain my responses only to the few functions I understand and humbly listen to what everyone else has to say qua the rest.
    You take +Fe/-Fi to a new level. Maybe you're INTp? I'm really curious to know your type; because your politeness is vomit inducing.
    He's INFj. Barring that, he's creative Fe. I don't see any other possibilities than that, and Ne subtype INFj is the most likely.
    totally agree. totally reminds me of my infj dad. even looks like my did when he was young.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    -Fe is more withdrawn, quiet, and shy.
    !!!??? Have you ever encountered any real-life ESE's or what ?!
    I think people have this stereotype about how ESFjs are, and its the most inaccurate thing I've encountered from people in the socionics community(especially here). ESFjs are extremely aggressive people, but in a way a loner. ESFjs have an extremely strong need for perfection in themselves and in their loved ones. They yells and scream at people when they make messes of things or make mistakes(which is usually out of love). ISFps and ESFjs tend to like to take charge of things. Also, another defining characteristic of ESFjs(as well as all alphas) is they have a hard time admitting that they are imperfect or have made a mistake. ESFjs usually always go about their business with things; they usually dress neatly but not over expressively. Alphas have a hard time feeling true hatred for anyone(also Deltas). Alphas are capable of taking up for someone that others would have considered to commit the most heinous acts. Also to note, I live with an ESFj. I know a bunch of ESFjs, and they all fit this mold.
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    On another note, Betas and Gammas have a hard time staying in relationships. They often rush into relationships for the sheer enjoyment of being playful and physically intimate with someone. They believe that they can make the relationships work. Eventually though the Beta/Gamma will notice flaws that they dislike with their mates and will start to distance themselves from them.
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    Rings a bell... ^

    Are these the kind of ESFj's you're talking about, Hitta? (body language and intonation will tell you enough)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH3KHqHtXCo

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    On another note, Betas and Gammas have a hard time staying in relationships. They often rush into relationships for the sheer enjoyment of being playful and physically intimate with someone. They believe that they can make the relationships work. Eventually though the Beta/Gamma will notice flaws that they dislike with their mates and will start to distance themselves from them.
    I'm sorry, do you think then that Beta-Gamma don't tend to get married, or tend to get married less than Delta-Alpha? What you mention seems just the normal pattern of a relationship that doesn't go well, regardless of quadra preferences.

    Yet I also see your point that being that beta-gammas are "resolute" they're probably more likely to yes, rush, and maybe that doesn't necessarly go well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    -Fe is more withdrawn, quiet, and shy.
    !!!??? Have you ever encountered any real-life ESE's or what ?!
    I think people have this stereotype about how ESFjs are, and its the most inaccurate thing I've encountered from people in the socionics community(especially here). ESFjs are extremely aggressive people, but in a way a loner. ESFjs have an extremely strong need for perfection in themselves and in their loved ones. They yells and scream at people when they make messes of things or make mistakes(which is usually out of love). ISFps and ESFjs tend to like to take charge of things. Also, another defining characteristic of ESFjs(as well as all alphas) is they have a hard time admitting that they are imperfect or have made a mistake. ESFjs usually always go about their business with things; they usually dress neatly but not over expressively. Alphas have a hard time feeling true hatred for anyone(also Deltas). Alphas are capable of taking up for someone that others would have considered to commit the most heinous acts. Also to note, I live with an ESFj. I know a bunch of ESFjs, and they all fit this mold.
    This is an ESI description.

    mhh... wait a minute... NO. This is NOT even an ESI description, it's a caricature.

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    If I had to put a type to that description, the closest would be SLE. Not ESI.
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    Default Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    You take +Fe/-Fi to a new level. Maybe you're INTp? I'm really curious to know your type; because your politeness is vomit inducing.
    :wink:

    You mean like that Family Guy scene where they all drink epikak?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I think part of the confusion is this -- when you look at (say) a Te dominant's behavior, or even their approach to ideas and solving problems, there will be some Ti there as well -- and vice-versa for Ti dominants. That is why it's difficulto to differentiate descriptions of "Te types, and how they think and behave" from Te as a function, the same going for Ti types and Te.
    That's why it's important to distinguish between function descriptions and descriptions of the personality i.e. ones that relate to an Ego block as opposed to a lone function.

    hitta, when are you going to write about the SLE and the LSE? Those are the descriptions I'm interested in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    On another note, Betas and Gammas have a hard time staying in relationships.
    Are you aware that ESIs belong to Gamma? Are you also aware that an ESI is one of the most devoted and moral personality in socionics?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    Rings a bell... ^

    Are these the kind of ESFj's you're talking about, Hitta? (body language and intonation will tell you enough)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH3KHqHtXCo
    Yea thats a decent depiction of ESFjs I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I think part of the confusion is this -- when you look at (say) a Te dominant's behavior, or even their approach to ideas and solving problems, there will be some Ti there as well -- and vice-versa for Ti dominants. That is why it's difficulto to differentiate descriptions of "Te types, and how they think and behave" from Te as a function, the same going for Ti types and Te.
    That's why it's important to distinguish between function descriptions and descriptions of the personality i.e. ones that relate to an Ego block as opposed to a lone function.

    hitta, when are you going to write about the SLE and the LSE? Those are the descriptions I'm interested in.
    I haven't continued writing descriptions because I see a flaw in the descriptions of my thinking functions that I'm trying to work out. I once stated that +Ti was organization and -Ti was disorganization; this is true in a certain context, but not the external context. +Te should be organization on the external level; and -Te should be disorganization on the external level. -Ti is about looking at things for what they really are; unsystematic logic. +Ti is about looking at things as guided by regulations, i.e. common sense, systematic logic. To note, INTjs are organized when they have the willpower to be organized.
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    Also, to note, I think that -Ti/+Te is about the facts; the problem is for INTjs they have +Ne/-Ni which sees infinite possibilities. This in turn causes INTjs to feel that nothing can be proven.
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    So now if you were to use, for the sake of argument, -Ti/-Te, what would that be?

    OK, now that seems a little more cogent: "-Ti sees things for what they are."

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    Default Re: Analysis of Cognitive Processes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Te

    Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively. Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone’s ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else’s thought process. In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else’s logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.

    Analysis: I've bolded what is essentially half of Extraverted Thinking in MBTT, for the simple reason that in socionics, it is not Te, but Ti. Augusta will illustrate this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Augusta
    When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to logically evaluate interrelations of objective static reality, or the world of objects. He also the ability to change according to his desires the interrelations between the characteristics of various objects and hence influence the objects themselves that carry these characteristics. Correct evaluation of one's interrelations with other objects helps the individual know which objects should be avoided, and which can be "hunted." Such an individual is able to set his logic — or his knowledge of objectifiable reality, patterns, laws, and correlations of the objective world — in opposition to others' knowledge. He has the ability to mould and perfect not only his own knowledge of objectifiable reality, but also that of other people. This creates a feeling of power when clashing with other people's logic or lack thereof.
    However, if you look at Augusta's Te, you will see that it may well correspond to the Te cognitive process to some degree:

    Quote Originally Posted by Augusta
    When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to [...] understand the logicalness and illogicalness of processes [...]. And the ability to apply personally and convey to others the most rational ways of doing things.
    Generally though, I believe it corresponds more to Ti.
    It is more Ti, but Te dominants (or even Te-ego) will identify to it to a large extent. It speaks of "abilities", which is not helpful when trying to set Te and Ti apart.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Ti

    Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed.

    Analysis: this is practically the same as Ti in socionics. It's what Phaedrus uses. He was clearly an INTP in MBTT, and then thought this could be transferrable to socionics, which is why he currently thinks he's an ILI.
    It is close to Ti in socionics, but it's not complete, I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Fe

    The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.

    Analysis: again, this is a spitting image of Fe in socionics.
    NO. This is a source of a great deal of confusion, and lots of mistypings. This is very skewed towards Fe + Si, that is, Alpha Fe, and Betas would not identify easily with it, if at all.

    The above is incomplete, it's at best a description of half the aspects of Fe. To be complete, it would have to include references to "being passionate" etc. A Beta NF type may very well read that and go "no way".


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Fi

    It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.

    Analysis: while I think this is the same as socionics Fi, I think it's a poor quality description, and doesn't adequately express many of the things related to Fi in socionical terms.
    Yes, I agree with your analysis.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Se

    Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.

    Analysis: with the exception of the bolded part (I don't really understand what is trying to be said here, but I don't think it's related to Se as we know it), I'd say this was socionics Se. Not in its entirety however, and this is important to note. It completely dismisses the idea of power mobilisation and awareness, will and external qualities (e.g. strength) of something. This is key - I repeat, key - to understanding socionics Se. This is what makes, for example, the ESTP so different to the SLE in MBTT.
    No, I disagree. That's not Se as such. It's a similar problem to the "Te" description above. This "Se" description is something that both Si dominants and Se dominants could agree on. As you said, it ignores the "power statics" aspect, so I'd say is far more relevent for Si than for Se. You relate well to it because you also have strong Si.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Si

    Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information*, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences, and we register a similarity or a difference—for example, noticing that some food doesn’t taste the same or is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when we see someone who reminds us of someone else. Sometimes a feeling associated with the recalled image comes into our awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, our body responds as if reliving the experience. The process also involves reviewing the past to draw on the lessons of history, hindsight, and experience. With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen**. There can be a oneness with ageless customs that help sustain civilization and culture and protect what is known and long-lasting, even while what is reliable changes.

    Analysis: this, to me, appears to be a mishmash of a few different socionics functions, Si included.
    I fully agree with your analysis. An interesting question is why the author thought that all of that was Introverted Sensing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Ne

    Extraverted iNtuiting involves noticing hidden meanings and interpreting them, often entertaining a wealth of possible interpretations from just one idea or interpreting what someone’s behavior really means. It also involves seeing things “as if,” with various possible representations of reality. Using this process, we can juggle many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our mind at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and threads together. We don’t know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction of thoughts, often brought in from other contexts. Thus a strategy or concept often emerges from the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Using this process we can really appreciate brainstorming and trust what emerges, enjoying imaginative play with scenarios and combining possibilities, using a kind of cross-contextual thinking. Extraverted iNtuiting also can involve catalyzing people and extemporaneously shaping situations, spreading an atmosphere of change through emergent leadership.

    Analysis: this is Ne as it is in socionics. The only thing it might need to place more emphasis on is an aptitude for noticing the hidden potential of people.
    Not quite. There is much Ne there, yes, but apart from what you noticed, the last sentence it's actually ENFj, Fe + Ni. Not Ne as such. Which of course doesn't mean that Ne dominants can't do it; as always, that's not the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Ni

    Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

    Analysis: I think this, too, is Ni. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but the bolded bits appear a bit like Ne to me.
    That's Ni-as-glorified-by-Ashton . It's Beta Ni, that is, Ni without Te. And no, the bolded bits are not particularly Ne.
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    Perhaps ironically, I think that Myers-Briggs functional descriptions are often - or mostly - "truer" to Jung's definitions than socionics; one exception is Introverted Intuition, which in Jung is the "crackpot" function: the example Jung himself chose to illustrate it in an interview was a woman who told him, "I have a snake in my stomach".

    The achievement of Augusta and her early collaborators was precisely to use Jung's functions merely as the starting point, they did not shirk from deviating from his definitions if they thought their observations, and the model they were putting together, warrented it.

    From the socionics point of view, one of the most confusing descriptions is precisely that of the Introverted Sensing type. Reading it, I don't get an impression of any specific socionics function; rather, to me it seems like it's more the absence of a function. It's a description of introverts who lack Ne, that is, a mix of LSIs, SEIs, SLIs and ESIs who are in an "inactive" phase in their lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Perhaps ironically, I think that Myers-Briggs functional descriptions are often - or mostly - "truer" to Jung's definitions than socionics; one exception is Introverted Intuition, which in Jung is the "crackpot" function: the example Jung himself chose to illustrate it in an interview was a woman who told him, "I have a snake in my stomach".

    The achievement of Augusta and her early collaborators was precisely to use Jung's functions merely as the starting point, they did not shirk from deviating from his definitions if they thought their observations, and the model they were putting together, warrented it.
    YES, and this is exactly why Myers-Briggs is more flawed than socionics. It used an EIE (god forbid, this type should never try to create a system - they should leave it down to the LSI) as its foundations, and remained more faithful to it. Socionics also used it as its foundation, but deviated. I believe they were correct to do so, because using the evidence around me (like the fact that intuiters need sensers just as much as sensers need intuiters, and that different types compliment each other), I feel that it is more practical as a theory; it works better. And who wants a theory that doesn't work or explain something well? Okay, I'll admit that I like discussing MBTT as much as perhaps even the Enneagram, but in terms of practicality, it's not as useful as socionics for relationships or even for the individual (despite the fact that MBTT is an individual-based theory). I use it merely as a hobby; a spare-time interest.

    Jung made some stupid assumptions, and I've heard he based his system of functions on astrology. Typical.
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    I've been told that he based his system of functions on experience with his patients.

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    this is a very useful thread... nice one Ezra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    +Te should be organization on the external level; and -Te should be disorganization on the external level. -Ti is about looking at things for what they really are; unsystematic logic. +Ti is about looking at things as guided by regulations, i.e. common sense, systematic logic. To note, INTjs are organized when they have the willpower to be organized.
    so, is an INTp, who has +Ti in creative, +Se dual, along with the "absolute" -Ne in their base, more organized than the disjuntive -Ti base, 'relative' +Ne creative, and routine-prone +Se polr of the INTj?

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    Well the thing is, that though INTjs are typically disorganized due to the +Se POLR, they use the Te of organization. What this means is that the INTj is organized when he actually does the little bit that he/she does. INTjs typically don't bother with things because they feel as if they can't make them perfect(+Se Polr working with +Te). INTjs are perfectionists, but they lose their course so quickly that things beccome disorganized because of the +Se POLR.

    -Ti and +Ti basically reduction logic v.s. holistic logic; or logic of analysis(disjunctive) v.s. common sense logic.

    Also another note, I've came to the conclusion that the extraverted functions are what is responsible for our physical expressions. Notice the similarities between an ESTj and an INTj. They both have that sort of stern look about them; like they are pissed or something. This is +Te expression.
    Last edited by Hitta; 12-23-2007 at 04:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I've been told that he based his system of functions on experience with his patients.
    Well, it's a logical assumption that most of the people he observed to create his types were his patients; I don't know that he makes this point explicitly, but it's a fair assumption. I would just caution against further assuming that he based types only on his patients; since he meant them to apply it to everyone, I would hope that he also confirmed them by observing other people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitta
    Well the thing is, that though INTjs are typically disorganized due to the +Se POLR, they use the Te of organization. What this means is that the INTj is organized when he actually does the little bit that he/she does. INTjs typically don't bother with things because they feel as if they can't make them perfect(+Se Polr working with +Te). INTjs are perfectionists, but they lose their course so quickly that things beccome disorganized because of the +Se POLR.

    -Ti and +Ti basically reduction logic v.s. holistic logic; or logic of analysis(disjunctive) v.s. common sense logic.

    Also another note, I've came to the conclusion that the extraverted functions are what is responsible for our physical expressions. Notice the similarities between an ESTj and an INTj. They both have that sort of stern look about them; like they are pissed or something. This is +Te expression.
    The interpretation of the Te+ and Ni- functions in the INTj that I currently uphold is that they form a 'secundary' personality that is used only when it strictly has to be used, and therefore less obvious in the behavior of a person. Is this in line with your conclusions?

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    thats one theory, but I believe that the +Te and -Ti function in INTjs for example are the same function. +Te is the expression -Ti is the substance. As I have said before, physical appearances are resultant of extraverted functions. INFp and ENTp both have a spaced out like look; INTj and ESTj both look cold
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