Is functional use inherent or conditioned?

[Ezra]

Here's a questioned I've recently been pondering.

Are functions a product of who we live with i.e. they are instilled within us, or are they something we're born with?

What does Augusta say about this?

What do you think about it?

Personally, I think they're based entirely on our environment. Street kids who get leathered daily don't grow up as IEIs. A mystic who has been taught to fulfill the same practice every day is not an SLE.

[machintruc]

As far as I know, Augusta said that types were inborn. (please tell me if this is wrong)

[machintruc]

I think type development should have this scheme :

1. Brain Chemistry - serotonin, dopamin, norepinephrin levels are set by genetics. This prepares the brain to percieve things in a certain manner, and set a pattern of thinking.

This explains why Extrotims are mostly enneagram types 2367, and Introtims are mostly 14589.

2. Pattern of thinking - in a few months, pattern of thinking sets. The little child will habituate himself (unconsciously or semi-consciously) to perceive the world in a certain manner. This is called INDIVIDUATION.

3. Then socionic type is here. It is likely to be inborn, like enneagram types, or almost inborn.

[Joy]

I believe functional arrangement is inborn, but functional use can be conditioned. That's why some people focus too much on their role, PoLR, etc.

[snegledmaca]

Here's a questioned I've recently been pondering.

Are functions a product of who we live with i.e. they are instilled within us, or are they something we're born with?

Hah, funny, I've been pondering the exact same thing. What if environmental conditions influence the usage of the elements? How would that reflect on a person's type?

Personally, I've been wondering because I've noticed that the environment I grew up in is beta. Excessively. Everybody acts like the beta description on the wiki page all the time. Regardless of their actual type. I am wondering how this is posible. For integral type to be so influential in people's behavior to the point where it conceals their real type (I've recently realized that the reason everybody I know seems to be beta or alpha is just that, they only seem to be beta or alpha) makes no sense to me.

[Slacker]

Why do you think street kids wouldn't grow up as IEIs? I'd think an SLE raised by mystics would reject the mysticism.

I think people are born with whatever type they are, or you wouldn't have an ENTj born to ESFj and ISFp parents, as Expat and my mom both were.

[machintruc]

I believe functional arrangement is inborn, but functional use can be conditioned. That's why some people focus too much on their role, PoLR, etc.

so what's the difference ? (between functional arrangment and functional use)

[Ezra]

1. Brain Chemistry - serotonin, dopamin, norepinephrin levels are set by genetics. This prepares the brain to percieve things in a certain manner, and set a pattern of thinking.

Then explain to me why I am an 8, my mother is a 7 and my father is a 4.

Personally, I've been wondering because I've noticed that the environment I grew up in is beta. Excessively. Everybody acts like the beta description on the wiki page all the time. Regardless of their actual type. I am wondering how this is posible. For integral type to be so influential in people's behavior to the point where it conceals their real type (I've recently realized that the reason everybody I know seems to be beta or alpha is just that, they only seem to be beta or alpha) makes no sense to me.

I agree. Throughout high school, it was Beta-dominated. My homelife is obscure in terms of quadra behaviour. Most recently, Alpha is the most dominant. Throughout my entire life I've seen an (horrible) excess of Fe from everyone I've met.

Why do you think street kids wouldn't grow up as IEIs?

Have you ever met one? Have you ever heard of one? How was your upbringing?

[Joy]

I believe functional arrangement is inborn, but functional use can be conditioned. That's why some people focus too much on their role, PoLR, etc.

so what's the difference ? (between functional arrangment and functional use)

Functional arrangement is determined by their type as defined within model A. (Even if an LIE is very focused on Si, it's still their PoLR.)

[Ezra]

How can types be both in genetic make up i.e. you're born with a type, and have your parents as something like your conflictors? It doesn't make logical sense. Surely genetics explain that you'd be roughly like your parents, not their complete opposite.

[Joy]

I don't think we can use the punnett square in socionics.

[Ezra]

Then how is it genetic?

[machintruc]

Then how is it genetic?

Let's suppose you're E8 :

There's some genes that set you those brain chemical levels :

Serotonin : low
Norepinephrin : low
Dopamin : high

There's also some genes that may contribute to mentally focus on , AND to have -like physical traits : usually, it would be flat nose, round face, and rectangular eyes. There may be genes of E8, or . It's pretty obscure for us now.

Possibly, VERY early on your life, you could have unconsciously chosen to be an LSI or an LSE, or even an LIE.

[Slacker]

Why do you think street kids wouldn't grow up as IEIs?

Have you ever met one? Have you ever heard of one? How was your upbringing?

I went to high school 20 years ago. I honestly don't remember what types "street kids" might have been. I see no reason to believe they wouldn't be of all 16 types.

[Slacker]

Then how is it genetic?

It could be biological and not be genetic.

[Ezra]

How?

[Slacker]

Mother's hormones during gestation. I'm not a doctor but there could be many things that could influence a baby other than genetics. I've read that the mother's hormones are one thing that can influence a fetus' gestation.

[Ezra]

But that's genetical. The amount of hormones are determined by one's DNA.

[Slacker]

I don't know if what hormones a mother emits during gestation is completely genetic. I'm not a doctor. It seems like outside things like diet could influence that. And there could be an element of chance involved in what type someone is too.

[Joy]

Then how is it genetic?

Not all genes are dominant or recessive.

[liveandletlive]

if it's genetic i would love to see how my family came about

me: SEE
younger sister by 2 years: LSE
dad: LII
mom: EIE

[aestrivex]

socionics type is determined by the amount of cream cheese ingested by the mother during the first trimester.

[liveandletlive]

genetic doesn't mean al family is of the same type, it's just means that ... say you and your sister are not identical looking, same with type, people get genetic make up with the type coming about through some random or not gene mixing.

i no but still it is odd that we are from the 4 quadras

[Animal]

It's both, and it's impossible to tell to what degree. Our environment can determine how and which of our genes are expressed. For example, all of us have all the genes to be either male or female - their degree of expression is determined largely by prenatal hormones as SlackerMom mentioned, and also to some extent by diet and exercise later in life (endocrin function). Similarly, assuming all functions work the same way (which we can't tell if they do or not), then all of us have the genetic potential to be any type, but the outcome was determined by environmental influences. I'm highly simplifying, here, but that's the gist of it.

[web:d44e4d1123]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics[/web:d44e4d1123]

Here's a somewhat less complex article: http://www.mcgill.ca/headway/fall2006/indepth1/

[munenori2]

If there is a significant genetic component, could we expect to see higher correlation between the types of identical twins (or even fraternal)? That's hard to picture, since it contains so very many factors. I can definitely see in the sense of being raised in the same environment and being treated fairly much the same. If they were identical, but separated at birth, hmm...

My brother and I are fraternal twins and we are INTj and INFj respectively. That's only a single datum, but there ya go. Anyway, I don't think either component (nature or nurture) can be ignored here. What a question though! It's really got my wheels spinning.

[FDG]

I know 3 pairs of identical twins, and they're all identical in psychological type - even though their behavior is different.

[Phaedrus]

I know 3 pairs of identical twins, and they're all identical in psychological type - even though their behavior is different.

If we would ever find a clear and indisputable example of a pair identical twins of two different psychological types, I would consider Socionics to be falsified.

[FDG]

I know 3 pairs of identical twins, and they're all identical in psychological type - even though their behavior is different.

If we would ever find a clear and indisputable example of a pair identical twins of two different psychological types, I would consider Socionics to be falsified.

For me, it would be required different temperament.

[Slacker]

I know 3 pairs of identical twins, and they're all identical in psychological type - even though their behavior is different.

If we would ever find a clear and indisputable example of a pair identical twins of two different psychological types, I would consider Socionics to be falsified.

Damn. I wish I knew some identical twins.

[hellothere]

It's both, and it's impossible to tell to what degree. Our environment can determine how and which of our genes are expressed. For example, all of us have all the genes to be either male or female - their degree of expression is determined largely by prenatal hormones as SlackerMom mentioned, and also to some extent by diet and exercise later in life (endocrin function). Similarly, assuming all functions work the same way (which we can't tell if they do or not), then all of us have the genetic potential to be any type, but the outcome was determined by environmental influences. I'm highly simplifying, here, but that's the gist of it.

I strongly agree with this.

regarding the hormones during gestation thing - the effect on the child would be an environmental effect, even though genetics may have played some part in determining the hormones produced by the mother's body. Though to the extent that the mother and child shared the same genes, there could be some indirect genetic relationship between the mother's hormone production during gestation and the child's personality (right?)

[Slacker]

It could be genes. It could be prenatal hormones or some other environmental thing. It could be random. It could be some combination of genes, hormones, and chance.

[Expat]

I know 3 pairs of identical twins, and they're all identical in psychological type - even though their behavior is different.

If we would ever find a clear and indisputable example of a pair identical twins of two different psychological types, I would consider Socionics to be falsified.

Damn. I wish I knew some identical twins.

The only pair of identical twins I've had any kind of interaction with, ages ago, also seemed of the same psychological type - I mean, identical twins of different psychological types would seem a bit weird perhaps, like very different people who just "happen" to look identical; such twins would be easy to differentiate, I think. Yet the usual observations about identical twins is that they're very difficult to tell apart.

[Joy]

I know 3 pairs of identical twins, and they're all identical in psychological type - even though their behavior is different.

If we would ever find a clear and indisputable example of a pair identical twins of two different psychological types, I would consider Socionics to be falsified.

Damn. I wish I knew some identical twins.

The only pair of identical twins I've had any kind of interaction with, ages ago, also seemed of the same psychological type - I mean, identical twins of different psychological types would seem a bit weird perhaps, like very different people who just "happen" to look identical; such twins would be easy to differentiate, I think. Yet the usual observations about identical twins is that they're very difficult to tell apart.

I grew up with some identical twins. When they were in kindergarten, they were identical identical, but one was noticeably more shy and sensitive, and the other was more like... I dunno, an ExFx of sorts. Interestingly, as time when by, they looked less and less similar. The more sensitive one had a rounder "baby" face, and the more outgoing one had a sleeker, more alert and dynamic face.

There was another set of identical twins that I knew as a teenager. Most people couldn't tell them apart, but one's face was a little thinner than the others. I could tell which was which just by the way they carried themselves, so even if they were on the other side of a big room I knew which it was. They had someone similar personalities, but different temperaments. The one with the thinner face is was probably ESI (and an extra shy one at that, though his brother was good at drawing him out), and the other a loud extrovert of sorts. I could dig up pictures of them if I felt so inclined, but I don't believe that I do right now.