Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Beta STs match to MBTI ESTJ type

  1. #1
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Beta STs match to MBTI ESTJ type

    LSIs and SLEs are most suited to the ESTJ, but only to some extent. I'm thinking along the lines of E8 ESTJ, as opposed to say the E1 ESTJ, which is certainly more likened to the LSE. Perhaps LSI is also similar to the ESTJ E1.

    Essentially though, ESTJ is one of the most common types for the 8w7 (along with ENTJ). This is because 8w7s are essentially all Extraverts and Thinking. I'd say around 70% are Judging. Sensing and Intuition are interchangeable, simply because the 8 has an innate sense of vision and potential (N) but is more likely to be focused on that which is concrete (S) than that which is abstract; something an ENTJ 6w5, for example, is more likely to focus on. Anyway, if you look at the ST club in socionics, it would make sense for the majority of MBTT STs. And the ESTJ has a strong sense of order, and is most likely a principled person. This resonates with the LSI. On top of this, there is a huge myth that the SLE is the ESTP. Wrong. The ESTP is the epitome of fun-loving (bar the ESFP), non-academic, chaotic but adept at getting people out of sticky situations. A 7w8, basically. This is what's wrong with MB type descriptions. They're too rigid. Rick made a pretty good point about how in socionics, it doesn't matter if the SLE is head of a street gang or a professor at Oxford; how he or she uses his or her Se and Ti is what makes him or her an SLE. SLEs are not non-academic, they're not always fun-loving, and they're certainly not chaotic. They can easily be ESTJs. Like me for example. Okay, perhaps some ESTPs are SLEs, and that would make sense. But not all of them are. Some are ENTJs, ENTPs and even INTJs. It comes down to a flawed system. And since I believe socionics is the more logical and consistent, I prefer it.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  2. #2
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,827
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    These correlations seem arbitrary - why are you putting so much work into them? I don't get the point of what you are getting at.

    What are you trying to prove?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  3. #3
    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    SLE
    Posts
    5,098
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Okay, perhaps some ESTPs are SLEs, and that would make sense.
    Yeah, and I'm one of them.

    Honestly, I doubt you're actually going to find many Socionics SLEs that test as ESTJ through MBTI. It seems quite unlikely that any SLE would mistakingly think of themselves as a "SJ" as MBTI calls it. In fact, I'd say that if a Socionics SLE is going to mistype themselves in MBTI, they're much more likely to call themselves an ISTP. (I thought that I was one back in the day, as well as Mustachio and user ESTP.)
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa
    I think the LSI is more like the ESTJ, actually (but I'm going by memory at this moment).
    And what MBTT type would the LSE be most like?

  5. #5
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think LSE is quite like ESTJ in MBTT.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  6. #6
    zenbrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tex-ass
    Posts
    232
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    [deep breath]

    Ezra, you are an E1; not an E8. Wing 9.

    I will agree that it's difficult to differentiate ESTp from ESTj in the literature (especially if you're doing a functional comparison) but the difference between Beta and Delta is palpable. It is easy to spot.

    The thread where someone threw out random images and jokes, and your reaction to them, was Delta ESTj all the way. I can introduce you (virtually) to a 1w9 ESTj if you wanted to get a feel for that stacking.

    Typical Beta quadra group behavior:
    Lengthy, theatrical monologues. Loud, hearty laughter. Importance given to group rituals such as those related to food and drink. Displays of great generosity and inclusion, but with the demand of emotional involvement in group. Rowdiness. Generally theatrical atmosphere, but with periodic moments of "dead seriousness."

    Typical Delta quadra group behavior:
    Discussion of interesting facts about people and places. Enjoy group outdoor activities. "Live and let live" attitude. Engage only in "productive" activities and discussions. Prefer smaller groups. Emotionally subdued; generally serious, but with periodic funny moments.

    http://www.socionics.us/theory/quadras.shtml

  7. #7
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I have contemplated 1w9, quite recently too. Alas, I am too comfortable with expressing my anger to be a 1.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  8. #8
    zenbrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tex-ass
    Posts
    232
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    1's are quite angry. That is a hallmark of the type.

  9. #9
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yeah, but they don't express it like the 8 does. They try to control it all the time, until it becomes an unhealthy build up. Also, when they do lose their control, they don't have the force of the 8.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  10. #10
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Beta ST is MBTT ESTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    On top of this, there is a huge myth that the SLE is the ESTP. Wrong. The ESTP is the epitome of fun-loving (bar the ESFP), non-academic, chaotic but adept at getting people out of sticky situations.
    Yep. A direct descendant of Jung's Extraverted Sensing type - which is little like a SLE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Rick made a pretty good point about how in socionics, it doesn't matter if the SLE is head of a street gang or a professor at Oxford; how he or she uses his or her Se and Ti is what makes him or her an SLE. SLEs are not non-academic, they're not always fun-loving, and they're certainly not chaotic.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    They can easily be ESTJs. Like me for example. Okay, perhaps some ESTPs are SLEs, and that would make sense. But not all of them are. Some are ENTJs, ENTPs and even INTJs. It comes down to a flawed system. And since I believe socionics is the more logical and consistent, I prefer it.
    Which is why it makes little sense to try to find any sort of correlation between the two.

    Having said that, I think that's another source of confusion -- I think that someone used to MB typing will tend to type real-life LSIs as ESTJs rather than as ISTJs - or perhaps as often.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  11. #11
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Beta ST is MBTT ESTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Having said that, I think that's another source of confusion -- I think that someone used to MB typing will tend to type real-life LSIs as ESTJs rather than as ISTJs - or perhaps as often.
    I do think LSIs are closer to ESTJs than ISTJs. Descriptively, at least.

    Also, I find interesting the fact that people are stupid enough to correlate the ISTJ with an LSI when the ISTP is much closer to the LSI in terms of functional usage. Nonetheless, what is the reason they don't do this? Simple. The descriptions. ISTPs are fun-loving, adventurous risk-takers; almost the opposite of LSIs. And yet the supposed LSI MBTT counterparts, the ISTJs, fit very well, description-wise. The difference is that while many E8s would identify best with LSI, ISTJ is not a common type for an 8 at all.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Beta ST is MBTT ESTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Also, I find interesting the fact that people are stupid enough to correlate the ISTJ with an LSI when the ISTP is much closer to the LSI in terms of functional usage.
    It certainly isn't. The functions are different in the two models, and you cannot compare them 1-1 that way. Especially Si and are two totally different functions.

  13. #13
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Re: Beta ST is MBTT ESTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I do think LSIs are closer to ESTJs than ISTJs. Descriptively, at least.

    Also, I find interesting the fact that people are stupid enough to correlate the ISTJ with an LSI when the ISTP is much closer to the LSI in terms of functional usage. Nonetheless, what is the reason they don't do this? Simple. The descriptions. ISTPs are fun-loving, adventurous risk-takers; almost the opposite of LSIs. And yet the supposed LSI MBTT counterparts, the ISTJs, fit very well, description-wise. The difference is that while many E8s would identify best with LSI, ISTJ is not a common type for an 8 at all.
    You're mixing up too many things here - functions, descriptions, and the enneagram.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,578
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    İnsan anatomisinde el bileği önkol ile el arasında bulunan esnek ve daha dar bir bağdır. El bileği temel olarak karpallar denilen ve birbiri üzerine sarılarak şekil verilebilir bir menteşe oluşturan, çift sıra kısa kemiklerden oluşur. El bileği eklemi (articulatio radiocarpea) oval eklemdirk onu başlıkları.

    Eklem yapısı eklemi oluşturan yapılar yukarıda radiusun distal ucu ve eklem diskinin alt yüzeyi; aşağıda skafoideum, lunatum ve triquetrum kemikleridir. Radiusun eklem yüzeyi ve eklem diskinin alt yüzeyi birlikte enine oval konkav bir yüzey oluşturur. Skafoideum, lunatum ve triquetrumun superior eklem yüzeyleri de düz konveks bir yüzey oluşturur. Bu konveks yapı, konkav yüzeyin içine oturarak eklemi oluşturur patoloji.

    Karmaşık yapısından dolayı el bileği incinmeleri ve fonksiyon bozukluklarının tedavisi zordur. Bilgisayar çağının getirileriyle beraber el ve bilek ağrıları, en yaygın üst ekstremite şikayetlerinden biri haline gelmiştir ligamentleri. Eklem, kapsülle çevrilidir ve aşağıda belirtilen ligamentlerce de kuvvetlendirilir:

    * Palmar radiokalpar ligament
    * Dorsal radiokalpar ligament
    * Ulnar kollateral ligament (başparmak)
    * Radial kollateral ligament (başparmak)

    Belirtilen ligamentlerin derin yüzeyini, radiusun distal ucunun kenarından ve eklem diskinden karpal kemiklerin eklem yüzeylerinin kenarına kadar sinoviyal zar kaplar. Gevşek, serbest durur ve sayısız kıvrım oluşturur, özellikle de arka tarafta hareketleri. Bu eklemin izin verdiği hareketler fleksiyon (bükme), ekstensiyon (germe), addüksiyon (orta hata yaklaştırma) ve abdüksiyondur (orta hattan uzaklaştırma). Birleşmiş karpal kemikleri sayesinde bu hareketler gerçekleşir resimler. Sağ posterior distal radius, ulna, karpallar ağ anterior distal radius, ulna, karpallar karpal kemikleri el bileğinin ligamentleri, anterior, el bileğinin ligamentleri, posterior. Erkek çocuk elinin röntgeni.

  15. #15
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm going to show how an ESTJ is very similar to an SLE and an LSI, both functionally and descriptively.

    Quote Originally Posted by TypeLogic
    ESTJs thrive on order and continuity. Being extraverted, their focus involves organization of people [this is textbook Se, and ESTJs in MBTT don't even have Se as a function, rendering Phaedrus' idea that Se is the same in both theories void)] which translates into supervision. While ENTJs enjoy organizing and mobilizing people according to their own theories and tactically based agendas [related to Se in both the SLE and the LSI], ESTJs are content to enforce "the rules," often dictated by tradition or handed down from a higher authority. [this is very much an LSI thing]

    ESTJs are joiners. They seek out like-minded companions in clubs, civic groups, churches and other service organizations. The need for belonging is woven into the fiber of SJs. The family likewise is a central focus for ESTJs, and attendance at such events as weddings, funerals and family reunions is obligatory. [there is less focus on this idea in socionics]

    Tradition is important to the ESTJ. Holidays, birthdays and other annual celebrations are remembered and observed often religiously by this type. The ESTJ is inclined to seek out his roots, to trace the family heritage back to honored ancestors both for a sense of family respectability and for a sense of security and belonging. [as is this]

    Service, the tangible expression of responsibility, is another key focus for ESTJs. They love to provide and to receive good service. The ESTJ merchant who provides dependable service has done much to enhance her self image. [this is actually one of the few things which is more related to an LSE]

    ESTJs have an acute sense for orthodoxy. Much of their evaluation of persons and activities reflects their strong sense of what is "normal" and what isn't. ESTJ humor is frequently centered around something or someone being off center or behaving abnormally.

    ESTJs promote the work ethic. Power, position and prestige should be worked for and earned. Laziness is rarely viewed with ambivalence nor benevolence by this type. [this is also attributable to an LSE]

    The ESTJ is outspoken, a person of principles, which are readily expressed. The ESTJ is not afraid to stand up for what she believes is right even in the face of overwhelming odds. ESTJs are able to make the tough calls. [relates to Beta ST as well as, in part, the LSE]

    Occupations attracting ESTJs include teaching, coaching, banking, political office, and management at all levels.

    Functional Analysis:

    Extraverted Thinking

    ESTJs are very good at making impersonal decisions quickly, and standing by those decisions. [this is, again, texbook Se in socionics] They live in their Extraverted Thinking functioning, thus, their prime directive is in discovering that which is true and logical in the events of the real world [related to socionics Ti]. Circumstances calling for product invite the ESTJ to supervise or direct other individuals toward production and productivity [this is something which is more relevant to socionics Te as opposed to Ti or Se]. Extraverts are attracted to the "object," the external things and people in observable reality. This bent translates into a natural interest in goods and material objects. [perhaps a Se thing]

    Introverted Sensing

    The secondary Introverted Sensing is like that of the ISTJ, but not as strong. Si provides practical form and concept data to the Te head, however, form is not the overriding principle, especially if Thinking has already decided. In times of need, ESTJs are tempted to overlook even necessary information if its absence impedes closure. Secondary sensing sometimes translates into interest in sports. The persistence of primary Thinking gives many ESTJs a desire for discipline and regimen which can be beneficial in skills development in the arena. [this actually makes Si seem weaker in the ESTJ than it is in the LSE]

    Extraverted iNtuition

    As the ESTJ matures, and as situations arise which call for suspension of criticism, Extraverted iNtuition is allowed to play. Under the leadership of the Te function, iNtuition gravitates toward the discovery of broad categories which at worst amount to stereotypes. Those ESTJs who hone their Ne abilities may find success in academia. (I've encountered ESTJs whose Ne overshadows the auxiliary Si function--for whatever reason--to the extent that there is an appearance of NT radical geekism.) [this is a really awful description to be honest]

    Introverted Feeling

    This function may rarely be expressed. ESTJs who have cultivated, or have been blessed with, a "natural indirect expression of good will by inference," have great prospects of developing genuine friendships (as opposed to ESTJs who merely act out the behavior of Extraverted Feeling). Such a weak, introverted function is best observed in facial expression, eye contact, body language, and verbally only by implication. [again, hard to analyse]
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •