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Thread: Negativism v Positivism - reinforcement

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    Default Negativism v Positivism - reinforcement

    Simple question:

    being positivist or negativist, do you find that style of reinforcement works best on you?


    Like, for a negativist, is thinking about what you "don't want to have happen" or "don't want to miss" or "don't want to pass up"
    more motivating than just thinking about what you do want?


    Just curious.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    It's hitta's idea, so...

    But in practice, yeah that seems right on the money. I definitely think about things based on the profit to be gained, so wouldn't that mean that you engage in profitable deals and transactions based on your observations of divisions/negative-cause effect correlation? I remember that your fellow ESTj Donald Trump came out swinging when there was discussion of a credit collapse earlier this year, saying that whatever happened there would be money to be made. Maybe it went like this: A does not cause B, therefore the potential for B still exists.

    Honestly I'm not too clear on ESTj logic, and I would like to your insights. Interestingly, the same principles may hold for pathological INTjs also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    ESTj Donald Trump
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    ?


    Anyways, for me it seems like "I want to get better" is different from "I don't want to lose where I, I don't want to get soft."
    Now, please, disregard saying that the first sounds more confident, because it is not a matter of confidence at all. It is what perspective really offers motivation.


    Like, for example:


    "I want a 4.0 because that is the best mark there is to get"
    "I want a 4.0 because anything less would be not putting in enough effort / would be not doing as well as I could do"

    Do you notice a difference in which one is more appealing to you?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    It's hitta's idea, so...
    Actually, I think UDP is referring to the Reinin dichotomy, which I don't think corresponds with the +/- thing, although hitta's definitions for +/- are similar to the positivist/negativist thing in Reinin.

    For example, ILI's 1st function would be "+N" if you use the +/- thing but is supposed to be "negativist" in Reinin, whereas IEI's 1st function would be "-N" but is supposed to be "positivist" in Reinin. Maybe there's another mathematical connection that I'm not seeing at the moment though.

    At any rate, if you type people based on their predominating IM elements, I don't think the Reinin dichotomy observations necessarily apply....or at least not in a clear, black-and-white way. They seem to work better with some people than with others. (that's just my observation)

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    Default Re: Negativism v Positiveis - reinforcement

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Like, for a negativist, is thinking about what you "don't want to have happen" or "don't want to miss" or "don't want to pass up"
    more motivating than just thinking about what you do want?
    If that was the case than I sure am a negativist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    It's hitta's idea, so...
    Actually, I think UDP is referring to the Reinin dichotomy
    Yes. I am not referring to hitta's works.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I don't think I understand the positivism/negativism thing at all. I have noticed I often tend to know what I don't want, and can't figure out what I do want. If that is positivism vs. negativism it would point away from Beta. I doubt it is though.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Like, for a negativist, is thinking about what you "don't want to have happen" or "don't want to miss" or "don't want to pass up"
    I've noticed this sort of thing doesn't seem to work with me if it comes from others. If they say, "you wouldn't want to pass up this opportunity," or "you're going to miss out," or that sort of thing... I feel like it comes with a sort of "threat" or implied doom (though I know it doesn't). It's sort of like saying "this bad thing will happen to you if you don't do this." I don't like that at all. It's like closing off the future. I know it isn't (or isn't always), but this can feel kind of manipulative... I think my own thoughts work to open up the future.

    Also if I think like that I may start to subconsciously fulfill the negative "prophesy" of it... which is why I try to avoid that sort of thinking.

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    I'm not sure if this is quite what you are talking about, but it seems to fit so I'll post it.

    NLP has a section on "Motivation Direction" which is used for determining if someone's motivation is to prevent/avoid a problem(s) vs moving towards a goal. I'll list some of the stuff in one of my books about this. (Note: one of the things I like about NLP over Socionics is that NLP considers this things to be situational or context dependent, while Socionics views people as fitting into types, regardless of differing situation/context.)

    What triggers you into doing something, such as setting goals?

    the Carrot (Towards) vs the Stick (Away From)

    Toward
    • Focused on goals
    • Think in terms of goals to be achieved
    • Motivated to have, get, achieve, attain, etc
    • Tend to be good at managing priorities.
    • Excited and energized by goals
    • Have trouble recognizing what should be avoided
    • Have trouble identifying problems
    • Often fail to take into consideration potential obstacles

    Away From
    • Notice what should be avoided
    • What should be gotten rid of
    • What should not happen
    • Motivated to solve problems or move away from something
    • Energized by threats ("if I don't get out there and sell, I won't be able to pay my bills at the end of the month.")
    • Deadlines
    • Good at troubleshooting
    • Good at solving problems
    • Good at pinpointing possible obstacles during planning
    • Pick up on what is or could be going wrong
    • Have trouble maintaining focus on goals
    • Easily distracted by negative situations
    • Compelled to respond to negative situations
    • Often drop everything to fix something
    • Often forget what the priorities are
    • Often only concentrate on treating crises
    • Often perceived as jaded or cynical (particularly by Toward people)

    Recognizing the patterns (Questions to ask)
    • Why is having that (their criteria) important?
    • What will having that (their criteria) do for you?
    • What's the point?
    • Why bother?
    • What's in that for you?
    • (often best if asked 2-3 times to get to the nitty gritty)

    Toward Sentence structures:
    • Talks about what they gain, achieve, get, have, etc
    • Inclusion
    • What they want, goals
    • Body language includes pointing towards something, head nodding, gestures of inclusion

    Away From Sentence Structures:
    • Will mention situations to be avoided, gotten rid of
    • Exclusion of unwanted situations, things
    • Problems
    • Body language includes gestures of exclusion, shaking head, arms indicating that something is to be avoided, gotten rid of

    Examples of spoken languages
    • Toward: "I would get personal satisfaction and a promotion."
    • Mainly Toward: "I would get a promotion, personal satisfaction, make more money, and not have to go on the road."
    • Equally Toward and Away From: "I would get personal satisfaction and not have to go on the road."
    • Mainly Away From: I would not have all this routine work, or be away from my family often, plus I would get a promotion."
    • Away From: "I would get away from this boring work, all the deadlines, and my boss who keeps looking over my shoulder."

    Language to influence Toward:
    Attain; obtain; have; get; include; achieve; enable you to; benefits; advantages; here's what you would accomplish
    Language to influence Away From:
    Won't have to; solve; prevent; avoid; fix; prevent; not have to deal with; get rid of; it's not perfect; let's find out what's wrong; there'll be no problems

    Away From people may need to ask themselves questions like "What am I trying to do?" and "How does this activity fit in with what I want to accomplish?"

    Toward people may need to ask themselves questions like "Are my plans going to work? What else do I need to predict? What haven't I thought of yet that may go wrong?"
    (Above info taken from "Words That Change Minds: Mastering the Language of Influence" by Shelle Rose Charvet)
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    Default Re: Negativism v Positiveis - reinforcement

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Simple question:

    being positivist or negativist, do you find that style of reinforcement works best on you?


    Like, for a negativist, is thinking about what you "don't want to have happen" or "don't want to miss" or "don't want to pass up"
    more motivating than just thinking about what you do want?

    if i don't want to get hit by a car, i will move out of the way. but if i am looking at the ice cream store across the street, i will miss the trucking approaching, and get hit.

    so, i guess it is more motivating in many cases.
    whenever the dog and i see each other we both stop where we are. we regard each other with a mixture of sadness and suspicion and then we feign indifference.

    Jerry, The Zoo Story by Edward Albee

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    Well, you have to compare them with other similar types. LSI are more trusting socially and intellectually than ESIs, but not more than ESEs, for example. I understand how from a theoretical point of view this doesn't make any sense, but it matches completely my experiences with LSIs. They approach you very easy without any qualms, strike conversation even if they barely know you, like to learn new things that might not necessarily be useful, etc.
    Last edited by glam; 04-07-2011 at 12:23 AM. Reason: removing my quote ;)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ;273428
    Simple question:

    being positivist or negativist, do you find that style of reinforcement works best on you?


    Like, for a negativist, is thinking about what you "don't want to have happen" or "don't want to miss" or "don't want to pass up"
    more motivating than just thinking about what you do want?


    Just curious.
    How valid do think this is in detecting the positivist/negativist dichotomy. According to this I'm clearly negativist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrior-librarian View Post
    How valid do think this is in detecting the positivist/negativist dichotomy. According to this I'm clearly negativist.
    I'm definitely a negativist as well, which matches the theory as LIIs are negativists.

    I've been reading (and trying to clean up the awful, awful machine translation from Russian) Gulenko's article on Forms of Thinking, which goes into this positivism/negativism thing quite a bit, along with other things. Fascinating reading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I'm not sure if this is quite what you are talking about, but it seems to fit so I'll post it.

    NLP has a section on "Motivation Direction" which is used for determining if someone's motivation is to prevent/avoid a problem(s) vs moving towards a goal. I'll list some of the stuff in one of my books about this. (Note: one of the things I like about NLP over Socionics is that NLP considers this things to be situational or context dependent, while Socionics views people as fitting into types, regardless of differing situation/context.)



    (Above info taken from "Words That Change Minds: Mastering the Language of Influence" by Shelle Rose Charvet)
    that reminds me of karen horney talking about neurotics that they move away from people, against people, and towards them and I've always thought of that as correlating to 5, 8, and 2 in enneagram.

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    The other day I noticed that, when I thought of some options, I was looking at the negative side. For example:

    "I can miss out on cake or I can miss out on cookies" vs. "I can have cake or I can have cookies."

    Getting goodies is too happy-go-lucky, something a decision isn't necessary for. A decision is for preventing something bad, like not getting something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Oh cool, a thread that nobody started.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Oh cool, a thread that nobody started.
    Lol. It was one of those creepy guests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    that's interesting. I'm definitely a "towards" person. However, I can see I would be a negativist also. I avoid the worst case scenario, while focusing on towards. Like 'in order to not starve to death, I will get out there and do X, Y an Z! I will then have tons of money and more free time."

    I always consider what could go wrong and have a plan to address that, but think of it in more of a towards way. Like, "If it rains and we can't go to the park, I will take the group to the store next door and we can shop, chat and maybe see a movie, which will be fun!"
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