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Thread: Alpha Centauri Leaders

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    Default Alpha Centauri Leaders

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    Last edited by xerx; 08-11-2008 at 06:34 PM. Reason: poster will discontinue to post inflammatory material

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    Default Re: Alpha Centauri Leaders

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes
    Hi, nice forum. I'm relatively new to socionics and this is my first post here.

    Has anyone played the game Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri? I've tried to type the seven original faction leaders. What do you think? I've included some quotes from each character so this thread isn't completely wasted on those who haven't played the game.

    Comments?

    i'm not going to read the material here; it's all tech data or talk or whatever. i might review it, because these seven leaders are brilliantly differentiated and make a wonderful case study (at least for the original).

    going over all of them briefly:

    deidre- delta NF
    yang- SLE
    zakharov- ILE is possible, but i was thinking LII. maybe gamma NT. seems like a very stereotypical NT.
    morgan- LIE?
    santiago- clearly Se.
    miriam- ESE
    lal- EII sounds good.

    from smax-

    aki-zeta-5- no real type. maybe ILI, but has elements of all the N and T functions, as well as the appearance of Fi. particularly Ne.
    svensgaard- SLE
    cha dawn- IEI
    domai- no idea. maybe SEE??
    roze- gamma NT.

    any progenitor - LSI.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    I was much more of a fan of Civilization myself, but I did play it very briefly as the Spartan Federation, who came across to me as LSI, as any Spartan should do.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ---
    Last edited by xerx; 04-30-2010 at 07:47 AM.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Smile

    Thanks for all the input over the years..

    Zakharov is LII. Worldview based solely on logic and inability to understand emotion suggests Ti dominant much more so than ILE. Makes absolute statements throughout the game; e.g. that all Mind Worms must be eradicated. His ability to work in a team also points away from Fi PoLR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prokhor Zakharov Psych Profile
    Cognitive ability exceedingly high; genius level. Worldview driven almost exclusively through logic. Poor ethical judgment and inability to weigh in emotional factors; moderate deficiency in social functioning. Puts strong reliance on tools and his ability to use and adapt them; this, over human values, represents ultimate good. Ability to work as part of a team towards definable goals invaluable to mission, but poorly defined sense of ethics and tendency toward self- aggrandizement must be closely monitored by ranking superior.
    Roze is the ILE; typical behavior that's destructive of existing systems. Doesn't judge other faction leaders using a set of values or care very much about ideology (except perhaps anarchy, implicitly).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinder Roze Psych Profile
    Roze makes little effort to hide her fondness for wreaking havoc on established information infrastructures, and her superiors should expect this behavior and make allowances accordingly. Although not a true anarchist, she gains a great deal of satisfaction from causing chaos and observing the aftermath. Her followers consist of a motley collection of hackers, free-thinkers, and drop-outs, whose creativity and talents are welcomed and utilized. Roze holds few ideological scruples, and so can get along with virtually anyone willing to put up with her behavior. Should she incur an enmity, however, she possesses the capability to efficiently and ruthlessly smash the foundations of an information economy.
    Svensgaard seems like a typical SEE. Se dominance makes him flexible and driven at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulrik Svensgaard Psych Profile
    Svensgaard has the rugged determination and self-reliance of a man who has repeatedly conquered the elements on their own terms. He can be sensitive to his lowly origins, and seems to take pleasure in humbling those who believe they possess more impressive pedigrees or credentials. Svensgaard ascribes to no known ideological beliefs, distrusting inflexible dogma and rhetoric, but instead chooses to wield his influence and power in the service of his own advancement and those who choose to follow him. He prefers to remain connected to the ocean when he can, despising the soft life led by 'landlubbers'. Although not truly malicious, Svensgaard will remove those individuals who stand in his way without a second thought. Anyone venturing into the ocean would do well to avoid or befriend this unique human.
    Source: Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri: The Factions

    Aki-Zeta-5 is ILI. Algorithmic logic is Te.

    Super Final 100% Sure Typings:
    Roze: ILE
    Zakharov: LII

    Santiago: SLE
    Yang: LSI
    Cha Dawn: IEI
    Miriam: EIE

    Svensgaard: SEE
    Morgan: LIE
    Aki-Zeta-5: ILI

    Dierdre: IEE
    Lal: EII
    Domai: LSE
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Zakharov as ENTp was right the first time imo.

    Yang is intuitive as hell. Spouting all that buddhist mumbo jumbo. INTj > ISTj.

    Some Yang quotes; almost all have a major intuitive bent:

    We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?

    I maintain nonetheless that yin-yang dualism can be overcome. With sufficient enlightenment we can give substance to any distinction: mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Remember, enlightenment is a function of willpower, not of physical strength.

    Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.

    Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.

    If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself.

    Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.

    What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.

    Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment.

    It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks and become one with all the people.
    Last edited by krieger; 04-30-2010 at 01:06 PM.

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    Why ILE for Zak?

    Intuitive is what I thought for Yang when I first joined this forum but I switched it to LSI upon reading this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheng Ji Yang
    Psych Profile: Protectionist
    Exceedingly deep and powerful mind; near flawless visual and kinesthetic recall. Somewhat antisocial, security minded to the extreme, with elaborate psychological defense mechanisms against emotional entreaties. High stability and loyalty to mission indicated.Driven primarily by need for security and control. Powerful will; leadership potential high but strong tendency to control and manipulate followers can result in almost cultlike following. Tolerance for pain exceedingly high; .96 on Atherholt Trauma Function Test.

    CAUTION: Earlier psych tests show suspiciously near perfect normals along all axes. Subject may use strong will and extensive knowledge of psychiatric indicators to manipulate test results in his favor.
    -near flawless visual and kinesthetic recall
    -security minded to the extreme
    -High stability and loyalty to mission indicated
    -Driven primarily by need for security and control. Powerful will
    -leadership potential high but strong tendency to control and manipulate followers
    -Tolerance for pain exceedingly high; .96 on Atherholt Trauma Function Test

    All suggest strong Se, not Se PoLR. The fact that his faction is entirely modeled after China's Cultural Revolution (Mao was beta ST) suggests LSI more readily than LII.

    Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.
    Could argue that this is a total rejection of spontaneous innovation (Ne).

    If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself.
    Sensors can readily adopt highly atheistic positions too; in fact, many do so quite easily and naturally because they see little point in speculating beyond what can be known directly.

    Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.
    Reducing human beings entirely to "chemical processes" isn't something an intuitive function would do. Intuition would like to offer up possibilities and paint a more interesting picture.

    It is possible, however, that this quote suggests an LII who reasoned himself into that position, much like Zakharov. As Krig says, Alpha NTs can reason themselves into almost any position.

    We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?

    I maintain nonetheless that yin-yang dualism can be overcome. With sufficient enlightenment we can give substance to any distinction: mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Remember, enlightenment is a function of willpower, not of physical strength.

    What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.
    This is all about control of information, which is Ti. It has nothing to do with intuition.

    Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment.
    This is the most intuitive statement he made, and all the talk of transcendence and embracing the rest of humanity seems mystical overall; definitely Ni. Embracing the rest of one's group seems like a rather beta philosophy.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    -near flawless visual and kinesthetic recall
    -security minded to the extreme
    -High stability and loyalty to mission indicated
    -Driven primarily by need for security and control. Powerful will
    -leadership potential high but strong tendency to control and manipulate followers
    -Tolerance for pain exceedingly high; .96 on Atherholt Trauma Function Test

    All suggest strong Se, not Se PoLR. The fact that his faction is entirely modeled after China's Cultural Revolution (Mao was beta ST) suggests LSI more readily than LII.
    What gives you that idea? None of that hints at anything involving an awkwardness with physicality and use of raw force. People like Adolf Hitler have no difficulty whatsoever manipulating and controlling people despite that their S functions are weak. One could easily argue that the ability to successfully manipulate and control others is a result from overarching insight, which is a skill related to N functions, not S.

    Could argue that this is a total rejection of spontaneous innovation (Ne).
    I dont see how the quote could be interpreted that way. There is nothing spontaneously innovative about producing a dataprobe out of sand. It is, like he says, simply impossible. He is stating an essential fact about the abstract process of technological advancement.

    Sensors can readily adopt highly atheistic positions too; in fact, many do so quite easily and naturally because they see little point in speculating beyond what can be known directly.
    But look at the concepts being mentioned in the statement. Not one of them is a particular. Every word the guy uses is an abstract class of things.

    Reducing human beings entirely to "chemical processes" isn't something an intuitive function would do. Intuition would like to offer up possibilities and paint a more interesting picture.
    What? It's the other way around. An S function would never break down something from reality into it's abstract properties to such an extent.

    Intuition would like to offer up possibilities and paint a more interesting picture.
    The picture he paints is provocative, controversial and true. How could it be more intesting that this?

    This is all about control of information, which is Ti. It has nothing to do with intuition.
    Again, the abstractness of the writing is what makes it intuitive. ISTjs aren't apt to write about "life", "enlightenment", "ying-yang dualism", much less to establish their connection with real situation like he does, time after time again.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Why ILE for Zak?
    That one is a vibe-typing. It's mainly in the way he casually observes things and isn't primarily concerned with using the science to control society, in contrast to the J leaders like Morgan and Yang.

    Morgan has some ENFj-ish moments, by the way. He's very charismatic and has extremely good orator skills. Imo one should not immediately jump to conclusions on him being gamma just because he is a crony capitalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    What gives you that idea? None of that hints at anything involving an awkwardness with physicality and use of raw force. People like Adolf Hitler have no difficulty whatsoever manipulating and controlling people despite that their S functions are weak. One could easily argue that the ability to successfully manipulate and control others is a result from overarching insight, which is a skill related to N functions, not S.
    **Near flawless visual and kinesthetic recall
    **Tolerance for pain exceedingly high; .96 on Atherholt Trauma Function Test

    Both suggest a strong physical awareness and comfort with physicality.

    **Leadership potential high but strong tendency to control and manipulate followers

    Se isn't just about using raw force. Se involves the ability to interact with an element through its useful and practical components (this isn't Te). Se types are able to manifest as much or as little control as they desire on someone by directly attacking his components that jut out in reality. This could include threat of pain, threat of taking something away, having a dominating presence, other forms of direct coercion and so on.

    Stalin and Putin are perfect examples of men who were able to intimidate and enforce their will on others. Adolph Hitler had strong ethics functions, which let him manipulate people emotionally. Totally different kind of manipulation. LIIs can do neither one of those very well; understanding others' thought processes with Ne might let you misdirect and trick them, but controlling them is difficult.

    **Driven primarily by need for security and control. Powerful will

    Powerful will is textbook Se.

    **High stability and loyalty to mission indicated
    **Security minded to the extreme

    Extreme loyalty and security mindedness are cardinal LSI traits (think Worf from Star Trek: TNG). The need to remain vigilant is related to weak intuition because of the inability to anticipate events ahead of time.

    I dont see how the quote could be interpreted that way. There is nothing spontaneously innovative about producing a dataprobe out of sand. It is, like he says, simply impossible. He is stating an essential fact about the abstract process of technological advancement.
    The process of technological advancement he talks about isn't that abstract; it's basic causality. And I find it ridiculous that a sensor (with a high IQ no less) would be too stupid to grasp it. What he's doing in that quote is setting up the logical rules and constraints by which technology is guided, which is Ti again.

    When he says all steps must be taken is what I believed was Ne devaluing. Here's a quote from Zakharov that's in the same vein but acknowledges Ne:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak
    There are two kinds of scientific progress: the methodical experimentation and categorization which gradually extend the boundaries of knowledge, and the revolutionary leap of genius which redefines and transcends those boundaries. Acknowledging our debt to the former, we yearn, nonetheless, for the latter.
    So at least in relation to Zak, he has very little Ne.

    But look at the concepts being mentioned in the statement. Not one of them is a particular. Every word the guy uses is an abstract class of things.
    I don't follow you. Why can't sensors use abstract terminology they've learned before? Christopher Langan certainly uses abstract classes of things.

    IMO, if Ni has an abstract vector (mysticism / peering into the supra-temporal reality) and a practical vector (applying predictive trends) then so can any other function.

    Ne has an abstract vector (theory) and a practical vector (anticipating opportunities).
    Si has an abstract vector (refined art) and a practical vector (basic sensations).

    What? It's the other way around. An S function would never break down something from reality into it's abstract properties to such an extent.

    The picture he paints is provocative, controversial and true. How could it be more intesting that this?
    I don't see it as something very abstract. It may have been 200 years ago, but it's common knowledge by now that people are composed of chemical processes. The fact that he can confidently reduce (Ti) all human motivation to some material substrate in the face of the complex dynamics of a human mind interacting with reality (i.e. nurture) suggests weak and/or devalued Ne.

    Again, it's possible that he has arrived there by way of some reasoning, but we don't see it in-game.

    Again, the abstractness of the writing is what makes it intuitive. ISTjs aren't apt to write about "life", "enlightenment", "ying-yang dualism", much less to establish their connection with real situation like he does, time after time again.
    On the flip side, we see a different side of him that's devoted to spiritual and soteriological pursuits that's far removed from what was just written about his materialism.

    Since there is no connection between them, it means he does not apply his materialistic metaphysical notions to the rest of his beliefs. This is very common for Ni valuers ime, to section off information without generalizing it into a single system. This is what leads betas to have contradictory ideological beliefs.

    Contradictory notions are practical, because reality is not a perfect theoretical system. Ni/Se values are designed to find whatever works and to apply it. This may also be an aristocratic trait.

    It's also very clearly the case of an ST (double external = materialistic, practical) using NF functions (double internal = metaphysical, etheric).
    Last edited by xerx; 04-30-2010 at 10:35 PM.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    That one is a vibe-typing. It's mainly in the way he casually observes things and isn't primarily concerned with using the science to control society, in contrast to the J leaders like Morgan and Yang.
    I'm not totally sure what you mean by controlling society. The University of Planets does practice genetic engineering if Zak's voice being on the Human Genome Project means anything.

    Morgan has some ENFj-ish moments, by the way. He's very charismatic and has extremely good orator skills. Imo one should not immediately jump to conclusions on him being gamma just because he is a crony capitalist.
    Possibly. But I favor LIE bz his charisma is much less than Miriam's, whose oratorial skills are amazing.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    **Near flawless visual and kinesthetic recall
    Intuition helps no less at this than sensing. Recalling a situation is in large part a matter of filling up gaps in one's recollections. This is intuition's primary function.

    **Tolerance for pain exceedingly high; .96 on Atherholt Trauma Function Test
    Tolerance for pain signifies an ability to abstract oneself from one's body, doing exactly what he describes in this passage:

    What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.
    Identifying pain for what it is. Removing it from it's raw, sensory context. The way he describes it himself, it's a wholly intuitive process.

    Se isn't just about using raw force. Se involves the ability to interact with an element through its useful and practical components (this isn't Te). Se types are able to manifest as much or as little control as they desire on someone by directly attacking his components that jut out in reality. This could include threat of pain, threat of taking something away, having a dominating presence, other forms of direct coercion and so on.
    It is most of those things in an immediate, direct, here-and-now kind of context. On a more global scale, the kind of scale Yang operates on, the intuitive functions provide a far better basis for such control. Like I said in a thread about Saruman: there is nothing about the Se PoLR that keeps an INTj from controlling entities when they are to him/her like pieces in a game of chess.

    Stalin and Putin are perfect examples of people who were able to limit the actions of others and to intimidate them. Adolph Hitler had strong ethics functions, which let him manipulate people emotionally. Totally different kind of manipulation. LIIs can do neither one of those very well; understanding others' thought processes with Ne might let you misdirect and trick them, but controlling them is difficult.
    INTjs have strong logic functions, which let them manipulate people pragmatically. Where Hitler experienced no difficulty from having weak S functions, neither would an INTj.

    **Driven primarily by need for security and control. Powerful will

    Powerful will is textbook Se.
    Try xxTj. Security hints at negativism. Control is also xxTj. The obsession with security is his way of protecting his PoLR: it requires him to shut out very direct, material kinds of threat.

    **High stability and loyalty to mission indicated
    **Security minded to the extreme

    Extreme loyalty and security mindedness are cardinal LSI traits (think Worf from Star Trek: TNG). The need to remain vigilant is related to weak intuition because of the inability to anticipate events ahead of time.
    None of these traits are to any lesser degree manifest in INTjs. Worf is ISFj, by the way. To suggest that guy has any control over his emotions is a huge misrepresentation of his behavior.

    The process of technological advancement he talks about isn't that abstract; it's basic causality. And I find it ridiculous that a sensor (with a high IQ no less) would be too stupid to grasp it. What he's doing in that quote is setting up the logical rules and constraints by which technology is guided, which is Ti again.

    When he says all steps must be taken is what I believed was Ne devaluing. Here's a quote from Zakharov that's in the same vein but acknowledges Ne:
    Zakharov would agree with him that all steps must be taken. The two aren't even in disagreement.

    The question is not whether Yang could understand it, but whether he would write about it in favor of documenting more concrete issues. The statement has no relevance of meaning apart from a philosophical one that is hopelessly irrelevant to anything an Se type likes to focus on.

    I don't follow you. Why can't sensors use abstract terminology they've learned before? Christopher Langan certainly uses abstract classes of things.
    Langan isn't a good example of what a sensor is like. Also, again, the question is not whether they can, but whether they would if given the choice to. Yang just does it so often and with such confidence and conviction that it stops being a secundary or unimportant trait of his.

    I don't see it as something very abstract. It may have been 200 years ago, but it's common knowledge by now that people are composed of chemical processes. The fact that he can confidently reduce (Ti) all human motivation to some material substrate in the face of the complex dynamics of a human mind interacting with reality (i.e. nurture) suggests weak and/or devalued Ne.

    Again, it's possible that he has arrived there by way of some reasoning, but we don't see it in-game.
    The other leaders, particularly Lal and Godwynson, still speak about humans in much the same way as we do today. Yang proves in several of his writings that he is perfectly well capable of understanding the more complex dynamics of human existance. In fact, he focusses on them extensively and describes them in abnormally sophisticated terms. He simply choses this way of representing things in order to make a point.

    It's also very clearly the case of an ST (double external = materialistic, practical) using NF functions (double internal = metaphysical, etheric).
    ST use of NF functions is primitive and sporadic. Yang's usage of either is not.

    I'm not totally sure what you mean by controlling society. The University of Planets does practice genetic engineering if Zak's voice being on the Human Genome Project means anything.
    The UoP is not Zakharov alone. What you describe is not what Zakharov subjectively focusses on. It's not what he primarily writes about. To him, science is all about passive observation and wonder. If we follow your line of argumentation we can also discredit the claim that Lal is INFj by pointing out that his faction has a military.

    Possibly. But I favor LIE bz his charisma is much less than Miriam's, whose oratorial skills are amazing.
    Not sure. She might be Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Intuition helps no less at this than sensing. Recalling a situation is in large part a matter of filling up gaps in one's recollections. This is intuition's primary function.
    I beg to differ. SxEs have the best and most vivid situational recall of any type. Intuition would generalize a situation so that most of it doesn't need to be remembered.

    Tolerance for pain signifies an ability to abstract oneself from one's body, doing exactly what he describes in this passage:

    Identifying pain for what it is. Removing it from it's raw, sensory context. The way he describes it himself, it's a wholly intuitive process.
    Not in my understanding. Tolerance of pain is related to Se ego. Raw, unmodified sensory content is Si.

    Asceticism and forgoing pleasure is almost universally related to Ni valuing and Si devaluing. The opposite is true too, Se valuers (esp. betas) are the most hedonistic quadras. Si valuing implies an acceptance of a golden mean, neither to splurge or to deny pleasure altogether.

    Deltas regulate pleasure thoroughly and gravitate to a highly clean and ecologically safe lifestyle (-Si). Alphas seek to maximize pleasure but within the regulatory framework they set up; they go to a few more extremes than Deltas (+Si).

    It is most of those things in an immediate, direct, here-and-now kind of context. On a more global scale, the kind of scale Yang operates on, the intuitive functions provide a far better basis for such control. Like I said in a thread about Saruman: there is nothing about the Se PoLR that keeps an INTj from controlling entities when they are to him/her like pieces in a game of chess.
    That's the source of the confusion. Real people are not Chess pieces. They usually resist being controlled.

    INTjs have strong logic functions, which let them manipulate people pragmatically. Where Hitler experienced no difficulty from having weak S functions, neither would an INTj.
    To maintain control of people like that requires an extroverted function. You can't directly control people with an introverted function like Ti; all you can do is understand how to control them in theory.

    Try xxTj. Security hints at negativism. Control is also xxTj. The obsession with security is his way of protecting his PoLR: it requires him to shut out very direct, material kinds of threat.
    I was under the impression that it was the ship's security he was obsessed with, not his own. LSIs are quite thorough and perfectionistic in performing their mission.

    None of these traits are to any lesser degree manifest in INTjs. Worf is ISFj, by the way. To suggest that guy has any control over his emotions is a huge misrepresentation of his behavior.
    Actually, ESI might be correct for Worf. I had him as ESI before. But I think the actor is SLE (?) so that threw me off.

    But LSIs are still more vigilant than LIIs are. They're the inspector after all.

    Zakharov would agree with him that all steps must be taken. The two aren't even in disagreement.
    Zakharov includes the role of revolutionary, unanticipated innovation.

    The question is not whether Yang could understand it, but whether he would write about it in favor of documenting more concrete issues. The statement has no relevance of meaning apart from a philosophical one that is hopelessly irrelevant to anything an Se type likes to focus on.
    I don't think sensors are incapable of generating philosophy. Ti and Te are associated with the ability to generate explanations.

    Langan isn't a good example of what a sensor is like. Also, again, the question is not whether they can, but whether they would if given the choice to. Yang just does it so often and with such confidence and conviction that it stops being a secundary or unimportant trait of his.
    Why isn't Langan a good example?

    The other leaders, particularly Lal and Godwynson, still speak about humans in much the same way as we do today. Yang proves in several of his writings that he is perfectly well capable of understanding the more complex dynamics of human existance. In fact, he focusses on them extensively and describes them in abnormally sophisticated terms. He simply choses this way of representing things in order to make a point.
    Which writings, I don't see it in all the ones you quoted. There is only this other one that I found, which is eerily similar to what an SLE once told me:

    My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?

    The Hive seems like the worst aspects of Aldous Huxley's and George Orwell's (both Deltas) dystopias rolled into one.

    ST use of NF functions is primitive and sporadic. Yang's usage of either is not.
    LIIs don't use NF functions like that at all. They don't define human society through a mystical or ultra-metaphysical conception (Fe+Ni). These two functions are not blocked together in them.

    Yang may be self-dualized. Most of what he says in this area isn't even new and he may be reading from his favorite authors. Transcendence isn't exactly a novel concept.

    The UoP is not Zakharov alone. What you describe is not what Zakharov subjectively focusses on. It's not what he primarily writes about. To him, science is all about passive observation and wonder. If we follow your line of argumentation we can also discredit the claim that Lal is INFj by pointing out that his faction has a military.
    It was my impression that the leaders had significant power within each faction, hence why they're never deposed even with the democracy engineering social choice. Plus his voice is on the genetic engineering project, so I thought it was a reasonable implication. I've made my argument for LII earlier in this thread -- no IxE would find a world view ruled through pure logic very interesting for very long.

    I don't think having a military or being able to stand up for yourself are inconsistent with Se PoLR.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Not in my understanding. Tolerance of pain is related to Se ego. Raw, unmodified sensory content is Si.
    To hammer this point in, here is Santiago's profile:

    Psych Profile: Survivalist
    Subject possesses strong discipline and ability to suppress own needs and comforts for greater goal. Physical skills and abilities top-notch; subject shows great pride in physical conditioning and disdains weakness. Mental agility and will to survive are superior; highly tenacious.Possible danger of explosive physical violence with subject due to deep wounds suffered as a child, but subject's exemplary ability to control and channel these responses has made her a model soldier.
    In spite of reservations, subject comes with exemplary references, and subject's unshakable will to survive could prove beneficial in difficult missions. Recommend subordinate position in security force
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    I beg to differ. SxEs have the best and most vivid situational recall of any type. Intuition would generalize a situation so that most of it doesn't need to be remembered.
    Funny. My ISTj brother tells me that he is terrible at remembering configurations of any kind. He can't remember the details of stories he's heard or places he's been. This is a fact and you can only deny it by doubting my integrity.

    Not in my understanding. Tolerance of pain is related to Se ego. Raw, unmodified sensory content is Si.

    Asceticism and forgoing pleasure is almost universally related to Ni valuing and Si devaluing.
    Wrooooong......

    INTjs are stereotypically known for being ascetic. It's the most ascetic type in the socion. Remember those passages about INTjs training for the cold and forgetting to eat when not reminded of the need. You're helping my position by pointing out his asceticism.

    The opposite is true too, Se valuers (esp. betas) are the most hedonistic quadras. Si valuing implies an acceptance of a golden mean, neither to splurge or to deny pleasure altogether.
    A rather strange opinion to lump together asceticism and hedonism. It simply doesn't make sense when scrutinized.

    Deltas regulate pleasure thoroughly and gravitate to a highly clean and ecologically safe lifestyle (-Si). Alphas seek to maximize pleasure but within the regulatory framework they set up; they go to a few more extremes than Deltas (+Si).
    If you want my personal input on this, I can (and do) go without pleasure and comfort very well and often choose to.

    That's the source of the confusion. Real people are not Chess pieces. They usually resist being controlled.
    Once the leader as accrued a sufficient amount of trust, they are very much like chess pieces. They were definitely chess pieces to adolf hitler.

    To maintain control of people like that requires an extroverted function. You can't directly control people with an introverted function like Ti; all you can do is understand how to control them in theory.
    Lol. You're telling me I can't do something I have first hand experience doing on a daily basis.

    I was under the impression that it was the ship's security he was obsessed with, not his own. LSIs are quite thorough and perfectionistic in performing their mission.
    The PoLR defense manifests on all levels. Protecing himself on a large scale scene means protecting whatever vessel he is on.

    Actually, ESI might be correct for Worf. I had him as ESI before. But I think the actor is SLE (?) so that threw me off.

    But LSIs are still more vigilant than LIIs are. They're the inspector after all.
    The initial topic was self-security, which INTjs are actually known for obsessing with. An ISTj doesn't have as much of an awkward awareness of his own frailness than an INTj does.

    Zakharov includes the role of revolutionary, unanticipated innovation.
    Nothing in Yang's writing precluded such.

    I don't think sensors are incapable of generating philosophy. Ti and Te are associated with the ability to generate explanations.
    Again, the question is in what volume and quantity they generate it. Yang is a philosopher full-time and that makes him intuitive. It isn't some project on the side to him.

    Why isn't Langan a good example?
    He is in a general sense abnormal.

    Which writings, I don't see it in all the ones you quoted. There is only this other one that I found, which is eerily similar to what an SLE once told me:

    My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?

    The Hive seems like the worst aspects of Aldous Huxley's and George Orwell's (both Deltas) dystopias rolled into one.
    Try the parts about collective oneness and personal trancendence. The point is that he observed humans from far more points of view than the one expressed in the quote we initially discussed, and most of them were abstract and philosophical to the max.

    BTW: the quote in your quote is the only one with any S content in it.

    LIIs don't use NF functions like that at all. They don't define human society through a mystical or ultra-metaphysical conception (Fe+Ni). These two functions are not blocked together in them.
    They use N functions and to a lesser degree F functions, so that makes them a lot more comfortable with NF like topics than ST types, which use neither.

    Yang may be self-dualized. Most of what he says in this area isn't even new and he may be reading from his favorite authors. Transcendence isn't exactly a novel concept.
    It's all far too extraordinary for it to be "just something he picked up". It's so well attuned to his political situation he can only have designed it all himself.

    It was my impression that the leaders had significant power within each faction, hence why they're never deposed even with the democracy engineering social choice. Plus his voice is on the genetic engineering project, so I thought it was a reasonable implication. I've made my argument for LII earlier in this thread -- no IxE would find a world view ruled through pure logic very interesting for very long.
    How is his view any more reflective of logic than of the scientific intuition?

    If your views on him being un-ENTp is based on some personal assesment of him not being similar enough to be your type, I counter that by making the same assesment in regard to him being INTj.

    I don't think having a military or being able to stand up for yourself are inconsistent with Se PoLR.
    They would be indicative of not being INFj if interpreted in the absurd way you did in regard to Zakharov's genetic engineering consent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Funny. My ISTj brother tells me that he is terrible at remembering configurations of any kind. He can't remember the details of stories he's heard or places he's been. This is a fact and you can only deny it by doubting my integrity.
    Technical details of stories or names and such is related to Te, I would think (?).

    Se is hugely associated with visual recall. There are threads on the forum where people talk about SLEs' stupendous situational awareness and memory. There are socionists who mention that an Se dominant is the kind of person who walks into a room and notices (and remembers) every detail: the expressions on everyone's faces, the amount of lights, the color of the lampshades, etc.

    As for kinesthetic recall, Gulenko specifically mentions that muscular sensations are involved in Se thinking.

    Wrooooong......

    INTjs are stereotypically known for being ascetic. It's the most ascetic type in the socion. Remember those passages about INTjs training for the cold and forgetting to eat when not reminded of the need. You're helping my position by pointing out his asceticism.

    If you want my personal input on this, I can (and do) go without pleasure and comfort very well and often choose to.
    There is a difference between forgoing pleasure and having the strict discipline to endure ridiculous amounts of pain. That is what I meant by asceticism because that's what Yang means. You forgoing daily pleasure is nothing compared to the pain and stress that soldiers in boot camps have to endure every day. And it makes perfect sense that a small percentage of Ne egos is in the army.

    It's also nothing compared to what you would face inside a punishment sphere.

    Se is related to discipline. That's pretty much classical socionics. Colonel Corazon Santiago is SLE.

    A rather strange opinion to lump together asceticism and hedonism. It simply doesn't make sense when scrutinized.
    It seems wrong, but it's a valid observation ime. Se valuers run the whole range from robotically disciplined to shockingly hedonistic. Si valuers gravitate to a smaller range down the middle, with some being more disciplined and some more hedonistic, since Si is about being in harmony with the environment and avoiding the mentioned extremes.

    Once the leader as accrued a sufficient amount of trust, they are very much like chess pieces. They were definitely chess pieces to adolf hitler.

    Lol. You're telling me I can't do something I have first hand experience doing on a daily basis.
    Are you telling me that you invasively control and manipulate people working under you?

    I presume they accept your authority because of mutual respect. If you ever did try to dictatorially curtail their freedoms or assumed some leadership position greater than the mandate they've given you, they would probably walk out on you and you'd need force to keep them in line.

    The initial topic was self-security, which INTjs are actually known for obsessing with. An ISTj doesn't have as much of an awkward awareness of his own frailness than an INTj does.
    I don't remember mentioning self-security. He's listed as the Ship's Chief Security Officer in the site I linked to.

    The PoLR defense manifests on all levels. Protecing himself on a large scale scene means protecting whatever vessel he is on.
    So? Couldn't he be protecting his Ne PoLR by inspecting all the contents of the ship (to avoid unexpected circumstances)?

    He is in a general sense abnormal.
    In what sense is he socionically abnormal? He seems very LSI to me.

    Try the parts about collective oneness and personal trancendence. The point is that he observed humans from far more points of view than the one expressed in the quote we initially discussed, and most of them were abstract and philosophical to the max.

    BTW: the quote in your quote is the only one with any S content in it.
    I addressed those already. Sacrificing one's individuality for the group or the greater cause is stereotypically Beta. The Nazis had similar beliefs that the state was supreme to the individual.

    Again, the question is in what volume and quantity they generate it. Yang is a philosopher full-time and that makes him intuitive. It isn't some project on the side to him.
    They use N functions and to a lesser degree F functions, so that makes them a lot more comfortable with NF like topics than ST types, which use neither.
    My experience is that when speaking normatively, people tend to stick to their valued functions and don't engage unvalued functions, unless they are criticizing themselves.

    It's all far too extraordinary for it to be "just something he picked up". It's so well attuned to his political situation he can only have designed it all himself.
    Whether it was or wasn't something he picked up, I disagree with the notion that a sensor couldn't manufacture such a perfect system.

    How is his view any more reflective of logic than of the scientific intuition?

    If your views on him being un-ENTp is based on some personal assesment of him not being similar enough to be your type, I counter that by making the same assesment in regard to him being INTj.
    His psych profile reads more like a Ti dominant. World-view driven exclusively by logic, inability to weigh emotional factors, puts extreme value in tools, good ability to work in a team. A sense of wonder at the world isn't inconsistent with any Alpha type and not the exclusive domain of ILEs.

    Look at Roze's profile. Few ideological scruples (no logically driven world view), can get along with anyone as long as they put up with her behavior (Fi PoLR). She's the ILE in the game.

    Zak could still be ILE, of course; there is nothing to rule out a very rational subtype, but if I have to resort to subtypes then it's a sloppy typing, so I favor LII. Actually, I do relate a lot to both him and Roze, and Yang to a small extent, so that's not a factor.

    They would be indicative of not being INFj if interpreted in the absurd way you did in regard to Zakharov's genetic engineering consent.
    No. Defending oneself from attacks (by building a defense force) is very much an Se PoLR theme, as you pointed out when you said that Se PoLRs are very mindful of their security.

    One more thing. The Peacekeeping Forces is a social democracy, so it's unlikely that Lal has as much say in the affairs of the faction as other leaders. The UoP is a university, and Zak is the Provost that inspects all the curriculum.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Se is hugely associated with visual recall. There are threads on the forum where people talk about SLEs' stupendous situational awareness and memory. There are socionists who mention that an Se dominant is the kind of person who walks into a room and notices (and remembers) every detail: the expressions on everyone's faces, the amount of lights, the color of the lampshades, etc.

    As for kinesthetic recall, Gulenko specifically mentions that muscular sensations are involved in Se thinking.
    Why do I not have problems in this area, being an Se PoLR type? The question is rethorical.

    There is a difference between forgoing pleasure and having the strict discipline to endure ridiculous amounts of pain. That is what I meant by asceticism because that's what Yang means. You forgoing daily pleasure is nothing compared to the pain and stress that soldiers in boot camps have to endure every day. And it makes perfect sense that a small percentage of Ne egos is in the army.
    Do you have evidence of the claim that there are few INTjs in the army?

    Se is related to discipline. That's pretty much classical socionics. Colonel Corazon Santiago is SLE.
    It doesn't make any sense that physical confidence and direct awareness would be tied 1 on 1 to discipline like that. The view that the discipline is related to logic functions and being J doesn't suffer from such an incongruence.

    It seems wrong, but it's a valid observation ime. Se valuers run the whole range from robotically disciplined to shockingly hedonistic. Si valuers gravitate to a smaller range down the middle, with some being more disciplined and some more hedonistic, since Si is about being in harmony with the environment and avoiding the mentioned extremes.
    Why? ISFp is the most hedonistic type in the socion. INTj the most ascetic, with ESTj as a close second.

    Are you telling me that you invasively control and manipulate people working under you?

    I presume they accept your authority because of mutual respect. If you ever did try to dictatorially curtail their freedoms or assumed some leadership position greater than the mandate they've given you, they would probably walk out on you and you'd need force to keep them in line.
    The skill mostly requires the ability to make up a clever way to reconcile the person's personal wishes with your goals. Using force is counteractive to it. It's a fully intuitive process.

    I don't remember mentioning self-security. He's listed as the Ship's Chief Security Officer in the site I linked to.
    He practiced the skill on himself, found out he was good on it, and extended the job to a proffession.

    So? Couldn't he be protecting his Ne PoLR by inspecting all the contents of the ship (to avoid unexpected circumstances)?
    To be in the position of an inspector comes with tremendous assets towards maintaining one's own security. Also, like I said, there was plenty reason for him to equate the safety of the ship with his own.

    In what sense is he socionically abnormal? He seems very LSI to me.
    Try ESxp. I think the answer to the question of what is abnormal about "the best intelligence test performer on earth" is self-evident.

    My experience is that when speaking normatively, people tend to stick to their valued functions and don't engage unvalued functions, unless they are criticizing themselves.
    The point is that people generally focus far less on their weak functions than on their strong ones. If they didn't, we'd have to throw all of socionics out of the window. The claim is of central importance to the theory and everything else hinges on it.

    Whether it was or wasn't something he picked up, I disagree with the notion that a sensor couldn't manufacture such a perfect system.
    It's not the perfection that matters; it's the abstractness and philosophical vagueness of it all.

    His psych profile reads more like a Ti dominant. World-view driven exclusively by logic, inability to weigh emotional factors, puts extreme value in tools, good ability to work in a team. A sense of wonder at the world isn't inconsistent with any Alpha type and not the exclusive domain of ILEs.
    Same goes for the focus on logic. If he was INTj, there would also be a passage on his being reclusive and lacking social incentive. Zakharov must have been relatively normal in that regard, but INTjs never are.

    Look at Roze's profile. Few ideological scruples (no logically driven world view), can get along with anyone as long as they put up with her behavior (Fi PoLR). She's the ILE in the game.
    There is room for variety within a single type.

    Defending oneself from attacks (by building a defense force) is very much an Se PoLR theme
    Of course it isn't. You think that I don't use military units when I play a strategy game? That's an absurd view of the issue. (as a remark on the side, I'm actually a fan of rush- and military mass production approaches)

    as you pointed out when you said that Se PoLRs are very mindful of their security.
    You can't agree and disagree with this depending on how well it helps your case...

    One more thing. The Peacekeeping Forces is a social democracy, so it's unlikely that Lal has as much say in the affairs of the faction as other leaders. The UoP is a university, and Zak is the Provost that inspects all the curriculum.
    Both factions had to pay a balanced amount of attention to the various tasks involved in running a planetary society. They weren't different in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Why do I not have problems in this area, being an Se PoLR type? The question is rethorical.
    Have you ever encountered an energized extroverted sensor? Do you realize how quickly and decisively they can act on information about anything going on in their immediate environment? Physical confidence is the result of confidence in sense perception.

    Do you have evidence of the claim that there are few INTjs in the army?
    I don't really, except common sense. I wasn't using it as evidence, just as a corollary derived from what I believe.

    It doesn't make any sense that physical confidence and direct awareness would be tied 1 on 1 to discipline like that. The view that the discipline is related to logic functions and being J doesn't suffer from such an incongruence.
    First, there are different kinds of discipline.

    Second, direct awareness is about a full correspondence between you and the object's external properties. There is no room for lack of confidence because the senses are the most basic unit of human perception.

    Why? ISFp is the most hedonistic type in the socion. INTj the most ascetic, with ESTj as a close second.
    I mentioned that +Si tries to maximize sensual pleasure gained. Hedonism is also a relative term. In the case of LIIs, I imagine they're quite ascetic because they can temporarily ignore the effects of their hidden agenda. I imagine the same thing applies to EIIs.

    The skill mostly requires the ability to make up a clever way to reconcile the person's personal wishes with your goals. Using force is counteractive to it. It's a fully intuitive process.
    Can you explain this? How do you reconcile a person's wishes with your goals?

    He practiced the skill on himself, found out he was good on it, and extended the job to a proffession.

    To be in the position of an inspector comes with tremendous assets towards maintaining one's own security. Also, like I said, there was plenty reason for him to equate the safety of the ship with his own.
    It's a compelling back story. Is it true?

    Try ESxp. I think the answer to the question of what is abnormal about "the best intelligence test performer on earth" is self-evident.
    Why isn't Yang abnormal in a similar respect? Couldn't he be some kind of genius? The level of mental discipline he shows isn't exactly common among humans, and is probably higher than most Ti dominants.

    The point is that people generally focus far less on their weak functions than on their strong ones. If they didn't, we'd have to throw all of socionics out of the window. The claim is of central importance to the theory and everything else hinges on it.

    It's not the perfection that matters; it's the abstractness and philosophical vagueness of it all.
    What about the more central claim that people focus mostly on their valued functions? Ni is something an LII technically could do, and does in small localized firings, but he would need a pretty big incentive to base his whole existence and that of millions of others around it.

    Same goes for the focus on logic. If he was INTj, there would also be a passage on his being reclusive and lacking social incentive. Zakharov must have been relatively normal in that regard, but INTjs never are.

    There is room for variety within a single type.
    There isn't a sentence about him being Si seeking either; does that mean we can rule out ILE?

    Of course it isn't. You think that I don't use military units when I play a strategy game? That's an absurd view of the issue. (as a remark on the side, I'm actually a fan of rush- and military mass production approaches)

    You can't agree and disagree with this depending on how well it helps your case...
    No. I don't think that because I don't think Se PoLR is related to the inability to manipulate a chess board. Show me where my case contradicts this claim.

    Both factions had to pay a balanced amount of attention to the various tasks involved in running a planetary society. They weren't different in that regard.
    This is a video game and we know the factions through the leaders. The leaders impart their personality to their factions and vice versa. Separating them is getting nit-picky.

    Besides, it wasn't always a planetary society. Each started with 1 base.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Have you ever encountered an energized extroverted sensor? Do you realize how quickly and decisively they can act on information about anything going on in their immediate environment? Physical confidence is the result of confidence in sense perception.
    There are other ways in which these traits can be reasoned to come about.

    Second, direct awareness is about a full correspondence between you and the object's external properties. There is no room for lack of confidence because the senses are the most basic unit of human perception.
    Yes, which is why Se is irrelevant when applied to a scale as large as the one Yang typically operates on.

    Can you explain this? How do you reconcile a person's wishes with your goals?
    Find compromises and describe your plans in a positive way. It is all about understand the situation and having full knowledge of it. As the scale of the operations grows, N becomes more useful in it than S.

    It's a compelling back story. Is it true?
    It's a story that applies to pretty much every person's life. First we practice on a small scale, than the scale gets bigger.

    Why isn't Yang abnormal in a similar respect? Couldn't he be some kind of genius? The level of mental discipline he shows isn't exactly common among humans, and is probably higher than most Ti dominants.
    Calling him N is the simpler explanation.

    There isn't a sentence about him being Si seeking either; does that mean we can rule out ILE?
    It's a less noticable trait of theirs than the INTjs' social disinclinations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    There are other ways in which these traits can be reasoned to come about.
    Well then there isn't much left to discuss because we have a fundamental disagreement. I'll keep your opinion in mind as I make more socionics observations.

    Find compromises and describe your plans in a positive way. It is all about understand the situation and having full knowledge of it. As the scale of the operations grows, N becomes more useful in it than S.
    That doesn't sound as severe as the type of control and manipulation he was accused of. It assumes the other person is well-off and reasonable, and sounds more like something Lal or Deirdre would do.

    Yes, which is why Se is irrelevant when applied to a scale as large as the one Yang typically operates on.

    It's a story that applies to pretty much every person's life. First we practice on a small scale, than the scale gets bigger.
    Likewise, Yang had to start with 0 manipulated followers and a small scale at one point.

    It's a less noticable trait of theirs than the INTjs' social disinclinations.
    I don't think all LIIs are socially disinclined. Many seek Fe on a quasi-regular basis.
    All logical types tend to social disinclination to some extent (and varying individual degrees), so it's hardly a distinctive trait.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    That doesn't sound as severe as the type of control and manipulation he was accused of. It assumes the other person is well-off and reasonable, and sounds more like something Lal or Deirdre would do.
    Witholding information and lying is perfectly compatible with the mindset. Lal and Deidre would do neither.

    Likewise, Yang had to start with 0 manipulated followers and a small scale at one point.
    He would have had trouble at some point. And he didn't stay at a small scale level. He isn't known for his small scale accomplishments.

    I don't think all LIIs are socially disinclined. Many seek Fe on a quasi-regular basis.
    All logical types tend to social disinclination to some extent (and varying individual degrees), so it's hardly a distinctive trait.
    Introvert and the social closure of the NT club contribute to it also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Witholding information and lying is perfectly compatible with the mindset. Lal and Deidre would do neither.
    If Lal and Deirdre do neither, doesn't that make lying and withholding information not Ne traits? But as Ti/Fe traits they're looking rather good.

    He would have had trouble at some point. And he didn't stay at a small scale level. He isn't known for his small scale accomplishments.
    Neither are Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Rommel, Hannibal or Alexander the Great.

    Introvert and the social closure of the NT club contribute to it also.
    It's possible. They did mention he was socially awkward, but that can just as easily apply to either Alpha NT.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Neither are Stalin, Mao, Lenin, Rommel, Hannibal or Alexander the Great.
    They're also not known for writing at his level of abstraction, but apparently I can't convince you of this obvious fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    They're also not known for writing at his level of abstraction, but apparently I can't convince you of this obvious fact.
    Chris Langan.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Chris Langan.
    He isn't that great either. He seems to do that kind of thing because it's expected of him. Never did any of it as a bouncer. His type isn't exactly certain either.

    Besides, there are exceptions to every rule, but this does not mean that the rule can't be used as an argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    He isn't that great either.
    Irrelevant. Subjective opinion.

    He seems to do that kind of thing because it's expected of him.
    You know this how?

    Never did any of it as a bouncer. His type isn't exactly certain either.
    Why? he isn't N. That's certain enough.

    Besides, there are exceptions to every rule, but this does not mean that the rule can't be used as an argument.
    Only if you want a hollow victory using a rule I don't agree with in the first place.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    You know this how?
    Because he started doing it after he got famous.

    Why? he isn't N. That's certain enough.
    Why do we say N types are more mental than S types in socionics, and then say there is nothing wrong when one of the most mental types on earth is S? It would just prove my earlier assertion that he abnormal in a certain way.

    Only if you want a hollow victory using a rule I don't agree with in the first place.
    1 out 6 of the people you mention defies the rule. That's not a hollow victory, it close to extreme statistical significance. If you don't agree with the "rule" than N types are more mental than S types, you reject socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Because he started doing it after he got famous.

    Why do we say N types are more mental than S types in socionics, and then say there is nothing wrong when one of the most mental types on earth is S? It would just prove my earlier assertion that he abnormal in a certain way.

    1 out 6 of the people you mention defies the rule. That's not a hollow victory, it close to extreme statistical significance. If you don't agree with the "rule" than N types are more mental than S types, you reject socionics.
    It's not mentioned anywhere that N types are more intelligent than S types. That's an MBTI-ism. In fact Rick specifically mentions that intelligence (I take it he means something roughly correlated to IQ) isn't type related.

    What I find to be true though is that intuitors usually react to a situation based on their conceptual ideas, whereas sensors base their reactions on what is quantifiable or immediately tangible -- since they're not always able to justify a concept in the face of an overwhelmingly visible contradiction. Similarly, an intuitor would find it hard to react to the immediate world around him without some conceptual guidance.

    But the suggestion they can't use concepts is just ridiculous. Let's look at it another way. If sensors always base their reactions on what is tangible, does that mean intuitives never base their decisions on anything tangible? Would they think so abstractly that they wouldn't be able to defend themselves? Would anyone who wants to physically exploit them be able to? Some intuitives are like that, but I'd hate to be one of them.

    If intuitives can achieve a measure of success in physical activities like sports, even win awards, then it's not a low probability that sensors can achieve a measure of success in the sciences or philosophy. Nothing Yang has written is so mind-blowingly abstract that he *must* be an intuitive type.

    I wish the Wiki hadn't crashed because thehotelambush wrote a pretty convincing case for Buddhism as a phenomenon. Anyway, what little I recall from it is the Buddhist belief that one's mind is a prison that restricts you from examining the deeper reality, which is ultimately a form of seeking.

    Whatever the case, it's not beyond belief for me that a thoughtful sensor could meditate on his intellectual program, understand his abilities and limitations and produce (or accept from someone) a philosophy centered on satisfying his spiritual needs.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    But the suggestion they can't use concepts is just ridiculous.
    It's not what I'm saying. I'm making the general point that all this crap about ying-yang dualism and enlightenment is intuitive writing. The overwhelming tendency is away from particulars and towards extremely abstract classes of objects. Anyone on the forum would pick up on the argument so I don't see why you have to be as dogmatic as to feign failing to comprehend it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    It's not what I'm saying. I'm making the general point that all this crap about ying-yang dualism and enlightenment is intuitive writing. The overwhelming tendency is away from particulars and towards extremely abstract classes of objects. Anyone on the forum would pick up on the argument so I don't see why you have to be as dogmatic as to feign failing to comprehend it.
    By the same logic, this quote make Deirdre a sensor.

    As we approached we were confronted by the ruined splendor of Sparta Command. The true immensity of the place became instantly apparent as our Quantum Tank crunched over the rubble and parked next to a shattered bunker, but the extent of the destruction took weeks to assess. The shielded datacore had sustained several massive breaches and smoke still billowed from the numerous cannon ports. There were few signs of human life.
    The tendency is towards extreme focus on particulars.


    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    By the same logic, this quote make Deirdre a sensor.
    ISFp sounds good.

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    I changed my mind, she's intuitive.

    Symbols are the key to telepathy. The mind wraps its secrets in symbols; when we discover the symbols that shape our enemy's thought, we can penetrate the vault of his mind.
    I believe Planet will talk to us if we are willing to listen. These fungal stalks behave as multistate relays: taken together, the neural net connectivity must be staggering. Can a planet be said to have achieved sentience?
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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