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Thread: Enneagram help

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    Default Enneagram help

    Ok, I had taken the Enneagram before, but it was a few years ago. I'm not too familiar with it at the moment, but I am slowly learning more about it.

    Anyways, I took three different test variations today to reevaluate my type. One from 9types.com, and two others from eclecticenergies.com

    So, I'm trying to make sense of these results and which tests are actually worth considering. I have gone through a few of the MBTI/Enneagram correlation threads and skimmed a few others on this forum as well, so I'm just trying to gather everything up at once.

    All of these results are from one take of each test.

    From 9types: The highest score I had was Type 4 (score of 7), and then there was a tie between Type 2, 6 and 9 (score of 5)

    This was the first test I had taken, and the results nor the test felt comprehensive, so I wanted to corroborate it with other tests.

    From eclecticenergies.com:

    Test 1 (test with instinctual variants)

    The order went like this: Type 6 SO, Type 4 SO, Type 9 SO, Type 2 SP in that order

    Test 2 (the most comprehensive of the three tests):
    Type 9 - 11
    Type 6 - 8.7
    Type 4 - 8.3
    Type 2 - 7.3
    Type 7 - 7
    Type 5 - 7
    Type 1 - 6.7
    Type 3 - 6.3
    Type 8 - 0.3

    Wing 9w1 - 14.3
    Wing 1w9 - 12.2
    Wing 6w5 - 12.2
    Wing 6w7 - 12.2
    Wing 4w5 - 11.8
    Wing 4w3 - 11.5
    Wing 5w6 - 11.3
    Wing 7w6 - 11.3
    Wing 9w8 - 11.2
    Wing 5w4 - 11.2
    Wing 2w1 - 10.7
    Wing 3w4 - 10.4
    Wing 2w3 - 10.4
    Wing 1w2 - 10.3
    Wing 3w2 - 9.9
    Wing 7w8 - 7.2
    Wing 8w9 - 5.8
    Wing 8w7 - 3.8
    Really what I want to know before I aimlessly or fruitlessly dig further is what tests/sites are worth my time taking/reading and what should I just completely disregard?

    What can be ascertained from these test results (if anything)?

    Thanks
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    That is hard and annoying.

    Try the similarminds one.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    First I took the advanced Enneagram test.

    Here are the results:

    Type 1 Perfectionism 62%
    Type 2 Helpfulness 77%
    Type 3 Image Focus 52%
    Type 4 Hypersensitivity 64%
    Type 5 Detachment 47%
    Type 6 Anxiety 67%
    Type 7 Adventurousness 27%
    Type 8 Aggressiveness 15%
    Type 9 Calmness 47%

    score motivation
    Type 2 54 I must be helpful and caring to be happy.
    Type 6 47 I must be secure and safe to be happy.
    Type 4 45 I must avoid painful feelings to be happy.
    Type 1 44 I must be perfect and good to be happy.
    Type 3 37 I must be impressive and attractive to be happy.
    Type 5 33 I must be knowledgable and independent to be happy.
    Type 9 33 I must be peaceful and easy to get along with to be happy.
    Type 7 19 I must be high and entertained to be happy.
    Type 8 11 I must be strong and in control to be happy.

    Type 2 so/sp/sx
    Now that I see the motivations all laid out like this, I thought about calmness issue. As I was taking the test, I kept thinking about inner volatility and turmoil. I generally see myself as an anxious person (so my state is not one of actually being calm). For instance, when it asks if I have a very relaxed personality, when I'm at my best I am, but I think most of the time I don't convey a relaxed personality. Anyways, I think that I'm happiest when things are fluid and working together and are harmonious (Is that perfectionism mixed in with this thought?). Yes, I do enjoy helping others and caring, and the other motivations that are near the top are not contradictory. But I would say that it is not the most important thing for me to be happy.

    So, I also took the short test (which I know contains the same questions as the advanced test)

    Here are those results:

    Type 1 Perfectionism 66%
    Type 2 Helpfulness 74%
    Type 3 Image Focus 30%
    Type 4 Hypersensitivity 62%
    Type 5 Detachment 54%
    Type 6 Anxiety 74%
    Type 7 Adventurousness 10%
    Type 8 Aggressiveness 14%
    Type 9 Calmness 58%

    score motivation
    Type 2 18 I must be helpful and caring to be happy.
    Type 6 18 I must be secure and safe to be happy.
    Type 1 16 I must be perfect and good to be happy.
    Type 4 15 I must avoid painful feelings to be happy.
    Type 9 14 I must be peaceful and easy to get along with to be happy.
    Type 5 13 I must be knowledgable and independent to be happy.
    Type 3 7 I must be impressive and attractive to be happy.
    Type 8 3 I must be strong and in control to be happy.
    Type 7 2 I must be high and entertained to be happy.

    Type 2 so/sp/sx
    So even with the peacefulness thing in mind, my results came out the same, which I find interesting.

    I remember one question said "I frequently put the needs of others over my own" which I think is absolutely true for me. Mainly because I frequently neglect my own needs, and I sometimes overextend myself to get something done for someone else.

    So, I'm not sure what to make of all of this.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Default Re: Enneagram help

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg
    From 9types: The highest score I had was Type 4 (score of 7), and then there was a tie between Type 2, 6 and 9 (score of 5)
    Given everything else we know about you, that result proves beyond reasonable doubt that you are an introverted ethical type.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg
    Type 6 SO, Type 4 SO, Type 9 SO, Type 2 SP in that order
    In line with the result of the first test. The two types SEI and ESI are the most unlikely based on those two test.

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg
    Test 2 (the most comprehensive of the three tests):
    Type 9 - 11
    Type 6 - 8.7
    Type 4 - 8.3
    Type 2 - 7.3
    Type 7 - 7
    Type 5 - 7
    Type 1 - 6.7
    Type 3 - 6.3
    Type 8 - 0.3

    Wing 9w1 - 14.3
    Wing 1w9 - 12.2
    Wing 6w5 - 12.2
    Wing 6w7 - 12.2
    Wing 4w5 - 11.8
    Wing 4w3 - 11.5
    Wing 5w6 - 11.3
    Wing 7w6 - 11.3
    Wing 9w8 - 11.2
    Wing 5w4 - 11.2
    Wing 2w1 - 10.7
    Wing 3w4 - 10.4
    Wing 2w3 - 10.4
    Wing 1w2 - 10.3
    Wing 3w2 - 9.9
    Wing 7w8 - 7.2
    Wing 8w9 - 5.8
    Wing 8w7 - 3.8
    But the picture becomes more muddled if we add this result, because both type 9 and type 6 are predominantly sensory types. From the tests we don't get a clear indication of whether you are a rational or an irrational type either. If we could rule out SEI and ESI, I would say that it is roughly a tie between EII and IEI based on these tests.

    Since the Enneagram is a false theory with lots of true statements that can provide valuable insight, I think that it should primarily be used as a complement to the understanding the socionic types. The Enneagram cannot stand on its own, because it does not deserve that respect. If a person knows his or her socionic type, the Enneagram type can often be inferred from that. If the person are absolutely sure that they can be only one type in the Enneagram, that means that most of the types in socionics can be ruled out as impossible and that only one or two need to be investigated further in order to determine the correct socionic type.

    Here is a site with good type descriptions and comparisons between different Enneagram types: http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=32:32

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    What are your thoughts about the tests I took from similarminds?
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by tereg
    What are your thoughts about the tests I took from similarminds?
    If I include the results from that test and compare them all together, I would say that your relatively high scores on type 6 and 1 are more important than your relatively high scores on type 9, and that your relatively low score on Adventurousness speaks against ENFp -- a type that was suggested by some people in your type thread.

    Your most likely type based on your test results and everything you have said about yourself in your type thread is without doubt EII. The only argument against that conclusion that perhaps deserves some further consideration is V.I., but V.I. is not yet an exact science, and most of the other pieces of evidence rather strongly suggest INFj. Your type in the Enneagram is most likely 4 or 6. There is only one EII IRL whose Enneagram type I am sure of, and she is a 4. Most 6s are ESIs, but since the temperaments coincide, I can accept the possibility that EIIs can be 6s too.

    By natural temperament and preference you are an early bird rather than a night owl, aren't you tereg?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    By natural temperament and preference you are an early bird rather than a night owl, aren't you tereg?
    Naturally, I would say no. Historically, I have struggled in the morning and been able to stay awake long hours in the night. My job now and when I was in school dictated whether or not I was an early bird. I wake up early out of necessity, but it does not come naturally to me.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Haha, I think we know you're not an 8 (15%!? Not even my lowest score was that low).

    Right, I'd like to think you were a 2w1. That would explain the 4 link. Maybe 6 is in the trifix. At the moment, which of the motivations do you most strongly see in yourself?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Haha, I think we know you're not an 8 (15%!? Not even my lowest score was that low).

    Right, I'd like to think you were a 2w1. That would explain the 4 link. Maybe 6 is in the trifix. At the moment, which of the motivations do you most strongly see in yourself?
    If I had to choose one and only one motivation that I most strongly see in myself at the moment, honestly I would say "I must be secure and safe to be happy." The motivation sounds a bit too cynical to me though, like I somehow need to padlock my door with six locks and a chain with an alarm system in order to feel secure and safe. I don't need to go to those ends to feel physically secure and safe. I identify most with that statement from an emotional and relational standpoint. I feel very strongly about feeling safe in my interpersonal relationships which is how I'm taking this statement. I feel the most happy when I'm in good relations with the people that I know and things are harmonious from that standpoint. Also, I am the most turbulent when I perceive my relationships are not on the best of grounds (and there have been times when I perceived incorrectly and looked like an ass for acting like things were in a crisis)

    Having said that, I would like to expand on this with a statement that I would like to quote from the moonshine site:

    But Sixes tend to suffer much more from ambivalence than do Twos who tend to know exactly how they feel and what they want. Sixes suffer from self-doubt; Twos tend to be self-assured. Sixes, even very competent Sixes, often question whether they are up to the task at hand. Twos, even those who are less than competent, tend to be sure that they can solve their problems, and yours as well.
    I would say that I am definitely aware and able to identify what I'm feeling and what I should be doing, but I most definitely relate more to feelings of ambivalence, self-doubt, and being unsure of my ability. Those feelings are tempered when I get into a rhythm at a job or a task and things are working. But I do experience the above statement quite frequently and very strongly.

    The question is, is the quotation above a valid statement about a difference between Twos and Sixes?

    About the statement "I must be helpful and caring to be happy", again, I do enjoy giving of myself to assist others, and I sometimes stretch myself very thin to achieve that, but I don't necessarily NEED to do that in order to feel happy.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    I guess what I construed as "I must be secure and safe to be happy." can also be seen in the statement "I must be peaceful and easy to get along with to be happy."
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    My knowledge of the 2 is very limited.

    Read this.

    Quote Originally Posted by R&H
    Misidentifying Twos and Sixes

    This is a fairly common mistype because these two types share a number of key traits. Both are warm and engaging and want to be liked–although, more precisely, Sixes want to have the approval and support of others, whereas Twos want to be loved and to be important to others. Both ingratiate themselves with people, although Sixes do so by being playful and silly, by bantering and teasing those they want to elicit an emotional (protective) response from. Average Twos also ingratiate themselves, but more from an implied position of superiority–they are warm and friendly, although the implication is that they are offering their love and friendship, their approval and advice, rather than that they are seeking it from the other, at least at first.

    In short, the feeling-tone of both types is completely different: Sixes warily invite selected others into their lives, whereas Twos throw out the net of their feelings with more abandon and see whom they can sweep into the fold. Sixes want to create partnerships with others that will support them in their bid to be more independent, but start to feel anxious if the relationship becomes too merged or "mushy." Twos want to be close with others, and the more intimacy and merging they have with their loved ones, the better.

    Both types are emotional, corresponding to the Jungian feeling types–the Two is the extroverted feeling type (PT, 62-63), and the Six, the introverted feeling type (PT, 222-223). Twos "wear their hearts on their sleeves" and are openly warm and demonstrative about how they feel toward others. Sixes, by contrast, are often ambivalent about their feelings, frequently sending ambiguous, mixed signals to other people. As they deteriorate, average to unhealthy Twos become increasingly covert in their dealings with people, ultimately becoming manipulative while concealing their true motives even from themselves. By contrast, average to unhealthy Sixes become wildly reactive (overreacting) and consciously confused about their feelings, ultimately becoming paranoid.

    Indeed, Sixes are consciously assailed by anxiety, indecision, and doubts–and they look to trusted others (especially some kind of authority-figure) to reassure them and help them build their confidence and independence. Twos are also sometimes anxious, of course, as all human beings are; however, they are not as indecisive or assailed with doubts, nor do Twos consult an authority figure for answers. On the contrary, as they grow in self-importance, average Twos usually make themselves into authority figures, dispensing advice on all life issues to the people within their spheres of influence. In short, average to unhealthy Twos believe they will only get love by having others depend on them, whereas average to unhealthy Sixes increasingly fear becoming dependent on others, while actually becoming more dependent. At the end of the Continuum, the differences can be seen most starkly between the unhealthy Two's psychosomatic suffering and romantic obsession and the unhealthy Six's paranoia and volatile lashing out. Contrast Twos such as Merv Griffin and Sammy Davis, Jr., with Sixes such as Johnny Carson and Mel Gibson.
    Spend some time reading about the 2, the 4, the 6 and the 9, and see if you can eliminate one or two of the types from your consideration. When you look into it more, you'll see that possibilities vastly decrease. You'll be thinking "why did I think I was a n? What a stupid thought". If you feel you're stuck on just two types, I can help you through using the misidentification pages at the EI website, as we have done just now.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Cliff's Notes: I mostly identify with an average-to-unhealthy fluctuation of a 9w1, followed by 4. I eliminated 2. I might need more clarification between 4 and 9. The 6 I feel can be explained in my state of "health" within 9.

    After doing some reading, here are my longwinded thoughts:

    Of the four types, the one I felt described me the least was Two.

    I feel this way because fundamentally, I don't feel like I'm entitled to gratitude. I do appreciate gratitude from others genuinely, but I don't expect or demand others to do things for me or demand gratitude as an entitlement. I don't remind people about debts or things that one might owe me; in fact, many times I'll forget about them without ever mentioning it. At unhealthy levels when I feel needy, it feels wrong to bring other people down with me, so I don't point out dependencies in other people to bring them down to my level. That just does not feel right to me. Mostly in unhealthy situations, my focus is on me and not on other people.

    There are things about Two I identify with, but I just felt like it described me the worst of the four.

    I think the one I most identify with is Nine with a One wing fluctuating between average and unhealthy levels.

    The description for Nine I found here http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=36:36

    I think this description very beautifully explains different dynamics and fundamentals of myself and I think reveals a lot of hard truth about what I actually do.

    The central problem for Nines revolves around the fact that their desire to maintain peace and to avoid conflict is compulsive. As the potential for conflict in life is virtually ubiquitous, the Nine's inability to confront it forcefully and deal with it effectively, leaves the Nine at a serious disadvantage when it comes to living a full, satisfying and honest life. This deeply rooted tendency to avoid discord plays itself out both internally and in the realm of external action, but generally manifests most centrally in close personal relationships, as intimate reltionships more than anything else tend to trigger core defenses.
    Virtually all Nines tend to see what they wish to see, to idealize those they love and to ignore whatever would disturb their comfort and peace of mind. These tendencies are not left behind until a Nine is truly healthy. The problem with this approach, of course, is that problems do not cease to exist, simply because the Nine ignores them. They have consequences, often deleterious one, both for the Nine and for those in the Nine's life.
    They are "home bodies" who are generally devoted to their families, especially to their children. They enjoy their hobbies and appreciate some time to themselves. They generally value simplicity and cultivate the virtue of patience. They are frequently creative in a modest and unassuming way. They adopt an attitude of acceptance towards life. They don't ask for too much; sometimes they ask for too little. At a very deep level, at a level which seldom breaks through to conscious awareness, most Nines simply feel that they don't deserve too much. Nines would do well to develop a certain kind of healthy selfishness, as many of their difficulties turn on the fact that they are too selfless.
    ^ This is so true, and yet while I know that having a bit of "healthy selfishness" would be good, it makes me chuckle a little bit at the uneasy feeling I get from just hearing myself say that.

    As mentioned above, the Nine's core issues tend to manifest most profoundly in the context of intimate relationships. It is here that the Nine's need to avoid conflict bears its most obvious fruit. Many Nines seem to find it excruciatingly difficult to assert themselves against those they love, even when it comes to trivial matters. They would rather defer to their partner than assert their own preferences. Their preference is not very strong, they reason, whereas the partner is willing to put up a fight. It seems only reasonable to "give in." In that manner, the Nine gets to avoid the unpleasantness of a conflict and vicariously enjoy the pleasure that the partner feels. Nines tend to merge with their partners and to empathetically take on the partner's feelings and desires. This naturally makes it difficult for the Nine to cause hurt or frustration to those they love. On any individual occasion, this policy of appeasement might indeed be reasonable, but as a general policy it does not bode well for either the Nine or the partner of the Nine.
    ^ Guilty.

    The problems generated from this policy follow a few predictable patterns. The Nine's partner might actually begin to resent the passivity of the Nine. It can be difficult to respect someone who will not defend boundaries, who will not take a well defined position. Other individuals gladly accept the willingness of the Nine to adopt their agenda and become overtly dominating and, in some cases, even abusive. The Nine might even appear to accept such aggressions against them, although resentment invariably builds beneath the calm and placid surface. Nine's have a difficult time accessing their anger, as anger is the emotion which, in its pure form, signals to us that one of our boundaries has been violated. As Nines tend to have a diffuse sense of their boundaries, they tend also to fall asleep to their anger. The anger exists however and will manifest itself, perhaps in passive-aggressive foot dragging or "checking out" from important engagements. For some Nines, unprocessed anger manifests itself through the development of psychosomatic illnesses. Other Nines experience instances in which pent up anger expresses itself inappropriately and unexpectedly with such a fury that it shocks those on the receiving end. All of these manifestations of anger are naturally a good deal more harmful to the Nine and to the Nine's relationships than expressing it in a way which is appropriate to the needs of the situation. The ability of a Nine to acknowledge anger and recognize and deal with its causes is a pretty good measure of the Nine's general level of health.
    ^ All of it, 100% true. Resentment of my passivity is something I'm actively concerned about others having, because I keenly know that, as it says above, it's difficult to respect someone who will not defend boundaries or a well-defined position. As a result, I have been taken advantage of by others while I have been naive and forcefully oblivious to their true intent.

    The really crucial problem for type Nine individuals is that they tend to have an inadequate sense of self. This leads to a tendency on the part of Nines to both downplay their own significance and to borrow a sense of significance from others. There is, in fact, a sort of paradox at the heart of the type Nine fixation. At a largely subconscious level, Nines intuitively grasp that the constructed personality, the personality with which most of us identify, is not the true self; it is not who they are.

    ...

    Without a well developed personality, without a firm sense of self and adequately defined boundaries, the Nine is left in a state of permeability to forces both outside the ego and to those subterranean forces that reside beneath it. Understanding this essential porousness of the ego of enneatype Nine is absolutely essential to an understanding of all of the basic manifestations of the Nine's specific problems and challenges. It is the difficulty that type Nine individuals have in addressing this core issue which is called in the traditional enneagram, the vice of indolence. As already indicated, indolence does not here refer to laziness in the traditional sense, although it can manifest in that manner in some individuals, but to the lack of attention to the most important matter at hand, the lack of attention to what constitutes true work, i.e. the development of a solid sense of self from which the Nine can be truly effective in the world.

    True love does involve openness to others and permeability of ego boundaries; it does involve acceptance and forgiveness; it does involve a sense of the interconnectedness of all things, just as Nines have known all along. Like all of the fixations, the type Nine fixation can be viewed as a sort of failed short cut; it can be viewed as the personality's flawed attempt to achieve the true virtue. As type Nine individuals learn to love and honor their own integrity, they are able to extend that love to others in a truly effective and beneficial manner. As they heal themselves, they heal their relationships with others and actively work towards healing the wounds of our ailing planet. Nines are sometimes called "the peacemakers" but they are not really worthy of that name until they leave behind the idea that peace is synonomous with the absence of conflict. Making peace requires the Nine to develop a truly active nature, the nature that Nines are able to manifest when they shed the passivity associated with their fixation.
    ^ And that is one of my greatest flaws; I do often see "peace" as the absence of conflict. And therefore, I find myself frequently as an average-to-unhealthy Nine. I very rarely achieve a "healthy" state, but I have experienced it in very small doses.

    A deeply entranced Nine simply dissociates from whatever is unpleasant or unpalatable, from whatever disturbs his preferred view of the world. Such comfortably numb Nines simply fail to process any information which would be a cause of discomfort or disturbance. About this phenomenon, Naranjo comments, "Not wanting to see, not wanting to be in touch with one's experience is something akin to cognitive laziness, an eclipse of the experiencer or inner witnessing in the person." Unhealthy Nines, even as they take on roles of leadership, which would seem to involve self-assertion, are often actually deeply entrenched in a peculiar form of self-abnegation. Hence we encounter the portrait of the "nice guy," the one who is affable to even the lowliest employee. He has a ready smile and a genial manner. He means no one any harm.
    ^ And I think this is where in terms of positions of leadership I can keenly remember resisting positions of high leadership. I start to get very skeptical of my intents... basically this next description spells out exactly what I try to avoid but could never quite express:

    Less healthy Nines who take on leadership roles however, tend to adopt a strategy of "muffling" from awareness the likely negative consequences of their actions. Often they surround themselves with like-minded others who reinforce their sense of security and who serve as a buffer from all forms of dissent, thus enabling the Nine to remain insulated. Most of the unhealthy Nine's insulating buffers against reality, however, are actually internal to the psyche.

    ...

    But he has just busted the union, slashed the benefits to the school lunch program, or authorized the bombing of Iraq. He heads for his private sanctuary, he mindlessly kisses his wife, he watches the TV. He sleeps well. His conscience is clear. He never assumes any responsibility for the evil he has wrought.

    It is an almost universal rule that those leaders who rise to power in spite of, or even by virtue of their unconsciousness, have managed to do so because they have unwittingly embodied and reflected back the irresponsibility and lack of consciousness of those who brought them to power. About such rulers, it would be fair to say that, even as they rule, they follow those they lead.
    Honestly, I get really scared when I put myself in scenarios where I have an authoritative position. Because I have seen my own danger of putting people around me to reassure myself. Throughout my life, I would often foresee myself making the same mistakes some leaders would make if I was in the same position. And that really scares me about holding positions of leadership.

    And then this process of rising through the ranks:

    Many Nines are "successful" when it comes to their interactions with the world. They are frequently productive and often manage to rise through the ranks on the basis of their likability and reliability without having to engage too forcefully in direct competition. Thus, even in a capitalist economic system, many Nines manage to "succeed" while maintaining an attitude of forbearance and cooperation
    I feel is spot on for me personally. In places of little or no competition, I flourish. More competition pushes me, but historically, I don't seem to rise to the occasion when it counts.


    And so I think this explains why I scored so highly as a Six in all of the tests. Because most of what I have known for most of my life can be seen in many of its core principles. However, I don't believe that I am fully a Six in the fact that I'm not naturally existential and cynical unless a trust or boundary has been abused in some way. I believe I'm 9w1 more than 9w8 because I do tend to withdraw under stress instead of being grounded and assertive. The different levels as described on EI just makes a lot of sense to me.

    Now, as for Four, I think this is very interesting. I identify with a LOT of what Four has to say and identify with the levels of health on EI's site.

    http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=31:31

    I don't want to get into a lot of detail about this unless needed, but I would say the only thing that I would take issue with for Four is about a sense of unrestraint as described here:

    When unbalanced, the Four’s envy can take a nasty turn, as unhealthy Fours tend to project their self-loathing outward. At such times, the previously sensitive Four can become spiteful and vindictive, feeling justified in being so because they have been misunderstood, and because they have suffered so terribly. As Fours have a well developed emotional intelligence, they know how to wound with words, and, when they are unbalanced, feel incapable of restraining themselves. They tend to lash out at the very ones who have been most supportive and who might be trying to help them. If this causes the Four's intimates to withdraw, the Four's abandonment issues are likely to be triggered, resulting in a frantic attempt to re-ignite the relationship. This can become a recurring pattern in the life of an unhealthy Four.
    I feel very uncomfortable about being unrestrained in this manner, instead opting to boil inwardly without going full out to express my discontent. BUT, I do sense a pretty strongly that I would know HOW to hurt someone if I really did "let myself go". I don't feel any sense of justification for lashing out in this manner because people might misunderstand me. If I do lash out like this, I have a very strong sense of guilt about it.

    One other point that I'm having a hard time deciding is the notion of uniqueness. Whenever people tell me something like "You're not alone! Join the club!" I have this really sour feeling. I always end up saying "I know that!" but I seem to be very defensive when it comes to these unhealthy situations I find myself in. I am fully aware that I am not the only person in the world who goes through the problems I go through. But I think I'm conveying somehow to people a sense that they feel like I feel that I am alone/unique in my problems. It's really weird. And as I was going through the Four description, I kept looking at myself honestly and really being like, "You know what? If I look at this honestly, I think that maybe deep down I do try to convey a persona that reflects my "true" identity or self, despite a resentment of people suggesting to me that I'm not alone.

    So, I really do identify pretty fully with Four, though I would say not as much as Nine.

    I might need some clarification to straighten this out, but at the moment, I am most confident in 9w1.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    I'm still not sure of your type, tereg. Based on these results, the IEI hypothesis cannot be totally dismissed, regardless of what other people might have to say about that. It is sufficiently clear that a person who identifies most with both 4 and 9 is more likely and IEI than any other type, and that is something that we must explain somehow -- and take seriously.

    One thing is now perfectly clear, however, and that is that you are definitely not an ESI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    I'm still not sure of your type, tereg. Based on these results, the IEI hypothesis cannot be totally dismissed, regardless of what other people might have to say about that. It is sufficiently clear that a person who identifies most with both 4 and 9 is more likely and IEI than any other type, and that is something that we must explain somehow -- and take seriously.
    Fair enough. I'm willing to consider that.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Yeah, I could imagine this. Both are withdrawn, both can easily be IEIs.

    Quote Originally Posted by EI
    Misidentifying Fours and Nines

    Some average Nines think that they are Fours because they have artistic talents and creative inclinations of one kind or another. As in the case of love not being the sole domain of Twos, artistic capacity is not the sole province of Fours. Other types can be, and often are, artists.

    Even so, the artistry of Fours is much more personal and self-revealing than that of Nines. The art of Nines often expresses idealized, mythological, and archetypal worlds–usually the real world glossed into something fantastic and wondrous. Nines are often gifted storytellers in which "...and they all lived happily ever after" is assured. (There are no unhappy endings in the Nine's world of make-believe.) By contrast, the art of Fours is generally more personal and realistic, the expression of the Four's (and of everyone's) deep longing for love, wholeness, and meaning. Fours often deal in the tragic, finding redemption in self-transcendence; Nines deal in the commonplace, finding comfort in ordinary lives and simple situations.

    The principal reason these types may be confused is that they are both withdrawn types. (PT, 433-36). Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nines, on the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them, disengaging themselves emotionally so that they will not be anxious or upset. They cut off their identification with others (or never identify with them in the first place), identifying instead with a private idealized version of reality. Average to unhealthy Nines tune out any unpleasantness by dissociating from whatever upsets them, whereas Fours do just the opposite, brooding over their anxieties in an attempt to come to terms with them. Fours are certainly not detached from their emotions–just the reverse, they are keenly aware of them, perhaps too much so.

    Both types can therefore be shy, absent-minded, confused, and detached from the real world. The difference is that Nines are detached both from the external world and from their emotions, whereas Fours withdraw from whatever has caused them pain. (In the end, that may add up to quite a lot.) Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting, whereas Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life. Contrast the personalities of Mahler (a Four) and Aaron Copland (a Nine), Saul Steinberg (a Four) and Norman Rockwell (a Nine).
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=309210#309210 - this is an INFj here talking about some problems that are E9 related. Not sure if he is E9 himself or not, but they are common things I've seen.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EI
    Misidentifying Fours and Nines

    Some average Nines think that they are Fours because they have artistic talents and creative inclinations of one kind or another. As in the case of love not being the sole domain of Twos, artistic capacity is not the sole province of Fours. Other types can be, and often are, artists.

    Even so, the artistry of Fours is much more personal and self-revealing than that of Nines. The art of Nines often expresses idealized, mythological, and archetypal worlds–usually the real world glossed into something fantastic and wondrous. Nines are often gifted storytellers in which "...and they all lived happily ever after" is assured. (There are no unhappy endings in the Nine's world of make-believe.) By contrast, the art of Fours is generally more personal and realistic, the expression of the Four's (and of everyone's) deep longing for love, wholeness, and meaning. Fours often deal in the tragic, finding redemption in self-transcendence; Nines deal in the commonplace, finding comfort in ordinary lives and simple situations.

    The principal reason these types may be confused is that they are both withdrawn types. (PT, 433-36). Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nines, on the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them, disengaging themselves emotionally so that they will not be anxious or upset. They cut off their identification with others (or never identify with them in the first place), identifying instead with a private idealized version of reality. Average to unhealthy Nines tune out any unpleasantness by dissociating from whatever upsets them, whereas Fours do just the opposite, brooding over their anxieties in an attempt to come to terms with them. Fours are certainly not detached from their emotions–just the reverse, they are keenly aware of them, perhaps too much so.

    Both types can therefore be shy, absent-minded, confused, and detached from the real world. The difference is that Nines are detached both from the external world and from their emotions, whereas Fours withdraw from whatever has caused them pain. (In the end, that may add up to quite a lot.) Nines see the world through rose-colored glasses, and their view of it is comforting, whereas Fours see the world from a garret window as outsiders and are not comforted: everyone else seems to be living a happier, more normal life. Contrast the personalities of Mahler (a Four) and Aaron Copland (a Nine), Saul Steinberg (a Four) and Norman Rockwell (a Nine).
    I think this is going to be very difficult for me to convey properly, but I will do my best.

    I'm trying to rack my brains about what I express when I have an artistic itch. The only thing I can come up with (that is a recent example) at the moment are my video blogs. I mean I can think back to specific pieces of art that I created years ago, things I drew, things I sculpted, anything I created. And I can see both Four and Nine aspects of my art. I don't consider myself an "artist" per se, but every once in a while, I'll have a drive to create something. I do, however, like doing things that are unique and are my own. For instance, my video blogs. The way I create them is I record a normal audio track of my voice talking about something normal or mundane, but I place overly expressive facial expressions of myself over the audio track. I time the transitions for maxiumum comedic effect. I was influenced by a cartoon that uses the same style, but I wanted to do my own unique interpretation of the style. I would imagine that is a Nine's version of art. But then I can recall doing very loose hand drawn sketches of me sitting alone on a hill next to a tree while the sun is setting. A lonely, introspective setting. So, I don't really know how to view myself in this light as either Four or Nine.

    Fours withdraw from others so that they can protect themselves and give themselves time to deal with their emotions. Nines, on the other hand, are withdrawn in the sense that they remove their attention from people or situations that threaten them, disengaging themselves emotionally so that they will not be anxious or upset. They cut off their identification with others (or never identify with them in the first place), identifying instead with a private idealized version of reality. Average to unhealthy Nines tune out any unpleasantness by dissociating from whatever upsets them, whereas Fours do just the opposite, brooding over their anxieties in an attempt to come to terms with them. Fours are certainly not detached from their emotions–just the reverse, they are keenly aware of them, perhaps too much so.
    ^ Here I see things very interestingly. When I read this, I tried to remember specific instances in which I actually withdrew from others and what I was thinking during that time period.

    I wrote this in an email to a friend of mine recently. This might shed some light on how I feel:

    I greatly fear the moment in which the very sight of me brings back bad memories. I'm terrified of that possibility. Because there is absolutely nothing I can do to prevent it or at least slow it down, except I guess in my my mind to take responsibility for it and just disappear. I've done it before with the church I went to. It always feels like it's my only option with no chance of reconciliation. Because I screwed it all up. And that pains me more than most things I have ever felt... because it's my fault and there's nothing I can do to fix it.
    I wrote this email about a week ago in an unhealthy state while I was under a lot of stress. But even in that state, I think a lot of truth comes out. The instance I'm referencing here was from 4 years ago. There was a girl who went to my church whom I had dated for 4 months, she broke up with me, and as the months went by after the breakup, I got the impression that anytime she talked to me or saw me that she didn't look happy or comfortable or genial. I feel like I need to say a disclaimer here, but I think I'm just going to continue, but I'm going to be careful in how I say what I want to say. I distinctly remember feeling and concluding at the time that it had to be because of me. I felt that the sight of me reminded her of things that bothered her about me because she acted differently around me than she did around others. And knowing that tore me up inside because I knew there was nothing I could do about it; nothing I could do or say could alleviate that discomfort. Reconciliation did not seem likely to me, and I felt that I was doing more damage to her by "grinding it out" and being there than I would if I disappeared. I felt at the time that the best thing to do "for her sake" was to leave my church so she didn't have to be reminded any more.

    Now, having said that, I need to emphasize that I understand how ridiculous and selfish it was for me to do that. I understand how unhealthy it is to do that. But, I think it needed to be said to illustrate the point about how I handle withdrawl.

    Ok, so, because I had other friends at my church, naturally they were worried about me. And I didn't want to have to explain to them the selfish decision that I made. Most of the time I ignored everyone else. If I was pressed to answer to someone, I did the stock answer about how I just "needed some time to myself to think".


    ...

    Sorry, this is really difficult to talk about because I can plainly see (and have for years) how frustrating it is for other people to see me needlessly go through this. It's still frustrating and challenging because I still fall into the same pits, but I'm not giving up though.

    ...

    Anyways, I think that truthfully, what I was doing was a Nine process in withdrawl, but giving a Four answer when pressed to avoid the inevitable "Why are you doing this?" question.

    However, I do feel like I focus too much attention on my negative emotional states, and constantly feel like I'm just repeating the same shitty mistakes because I can't learn from my past.

    It's almost like when I'm pressed to confront these issues, I use a Four's process and think and say things like a Four would. In the absence of the challenge, I use a Nine's process of detaching so I don't have to feel anxiety.

    I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but that's the only way I can explain it at the moment.

    As far as the issue of how I see the world. I can't think of specific instances to illustrate how I see it. I think that I do a little of both at times. It seems to fluctuate between periods of optimism and periods of feeling like an outsider. So, I don't really know what to say about that.

    If I think examples I will use them.

    I'm going to use the next post to respond to UDP, because there are some very interesting things I found in the linked post.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    I can see that. I worry about that sometimes when I talk to people and try to avoid it. I don't open up to many people, so when I do have an audience sometimes it can be a lot. I have been known to talk about myself.

    I always try to tell people to let me know though - so I suggest you learn how to indicate that you are tired of being talked at. Usually ESEs are more gabby and talk and talk about nothing that matters, so make sure you're not misidentifying the person. But ESTjs can be very talkative too, some of them. But yeah, learn how to tell them you've had enough - INFjs have a tendency of enabling other people's bad habits and going into "*sigh* I'll deal with it" / "martyr mode", which bothers me sometimes.

    What you are experiencing is likely something that can happen to any type (especially sensors, Si types, or extraverts in general) - it is a form of sort of droning talking about things. Sometimes I just think out loud with someone, but I try to catch myself as to when they have lost interest in the conversation.

    IF the ESTj (or anyone else you are talking to) is worth their salt, then they will want you to tell them when you are getting bored or they are going overboard with talking, and not listening to you, etc. INFjs seem to have problems indicating to people that they are talking too much IME, but that doesn't mean that just because you are INFj you ought to enable this kind of behavior. Maybe approach it like you are ultimately doing them a favor, and, like I said - if they are really worth your time, the person will appreciate you letting them know they were talking too much. If they respond positively to your indication, that shows that the person cares about you, and is not just using you to vent on or verbally get off on. If they respond positively to you pointing out they are droning on and on, then that means you have value to them beyond a talk receiving advice - and therefore you ultimately are doing them a favor by letting them know.
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    I'm getting so tired of trying not to hurt other people, that I'm not really caring as much about it. It's not that I'm out to insult people, it's just that why go through all that trouble if you are just telling the truth...
    See, this is something that I am constantly educating INFjs about:

    Sticking up for yourself is not rude.

    First and foremost, you have to realize that your lack of assertiveness is somewhat of a cowardice on your part. I know this hurts your polr, but the truth is the truth - and you have to deal with it. The fact that you are not asserting yourself, and so wrapped up in not hurting other people's feelings - it is giving you the right to get passive-aggressively angry. See, now yo have all this angst at the person and he doesn't know about it because YOU never say anything. So realize your involvement in this situation - it is NOT just this guy talking on and on and on, it is You not expressing yourself. Whether you like it or not you are involved in the situation in that way.
    I need to say first that I need to hear the truth no matter how much it might "hurt". Yes, it does hit my weak , but it still needs to be said imo. Yes, naturally, I don't like hearing it, and it reminds me of my shortcomings when it is mentioned, but it still needs to be said to knock some sense into me.

    I am guilty of the above two quotes, and I continue to struggle with it. And I'm going to tell you why I personally struggle with it. I think it's because deep down, I have trust issues. For me to be engaged in conversation and being able to tell a friend when they've said too much requires that I trust that their reaction will not be to react negatively to my comments. This trust does not come naturally to me, and I constantly have to remind myself forcefully to trust that my friends will not overreact for sticking up for myself. It's all rooted in fear. And I think that what the fear is, is believing there's always a chance (however small it is) that my friend might overreact to my assertiveness, thereby negating any effort I've made to maintain my own sense of harmony.

    It's sick. It's a frustrating cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    As part of a person involved in conversation - that is what you want, right, a conversation? - you have to actually interact, and indicate what is good or not good. Just receiving data and making a small comment here and there is only so much. And yes, there is being ethical or whatever - but don't use being ethical as an excuse for being a wuss about stating your mind or standing up for yourself. Conversation is supposed to be an exchange between two people - and if you never converse back or indicate things back, then you are acting like you don't really care. Which isn't true, because, obviously you do. So yeah, don't let your 'ethical feelings' get in the way, and realize when you are getting pent up or frustrated. That means that you ought to be telling the person that you've had enough, or you just don't want to talk right now, or whatever.
    And it comes down to one simple thing: I have to make that decision. I have to choose to let go and trust.

    The above statement really hits a core within me that is scary and has been very frustrating to make progress. I'm saying that because, yes, what I want is engagement in conversation, and I'm doing the exact opposite. I recognize the statement's truth and I'm aware of my embarrassing shortcomings in this issue. The thing that is the most challenging, I'm going to tell you right now, is being able to recognize in the moment when the fear creeps in and actively shoving it aside. That moment when I want to say something assertive and I pause... that moment. Because I can talk all I want here on this board or this post about what I should decide to do in that moment. But the moment of truth is when the decisions become rushed and I struggle to think clearly. I need some sort of trigger to remind myself in that moment so that I can start to move in the assertive direction. So I can say in that moment "ok, I paused... wait... yeah... this is ok to say, I'm going to say it and trust they're going to be ok." It sounds like I can translate that easily into everyday conversations with people, but for people like me, it is so easy for that to get swallowed up and forgotten in those critical moments.

    In any case, it remains a frustrating hurdle because on one hand I'm aware of what my disposition is doing in preventing conversation, and on the other hand I want and desire that connection.

    So, I completely agree with your assessment. The truth resonates within me very clearly about what you're saying.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    I know that they don't approve of "talking back" and people saying nasty things for its own sake, so I'll never feel comfortable in letting out my sarcastic remarks to them.
    I would like to add that if I perceive that a person does not take sarcasm well or some sort of assertiveness makes them react in some sort of volatile way, then I am also never comfortable about being assertive or sarcastic. It just gets shut off, and no amount of pep talking would persuade me to be assertive. I'm just saying this because this is my natural reaction. I keep coming back to this, trying to talk myself into thinking about this differently and move towards changing this mindset.

    So frustrating, yet so necessary to do though.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

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