Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Dual-type theory: Exerted/Slave Information Elements

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Dual-type theory: Exerted/Slave Information Elements

    So I've been thinking about slave/exertion/object Ne for a while, and it seems to me like something very difficult to quantify except in relation to its partner, Si. While you might call a declaration of war, or being in the state of one master Si (negative), the actual pursuit of war and the activity of conflict is slave Si. To understand the relationship between slave Si and slave Ne, consider the case of the atom bomb. In 1923 a student approached Einstein about the possibility of using his special theory of relativity as the basis for an atomic fission weapon. Einstein disparaged the possibility then. Yet in 1939 he wrote a letter to FDR stating that the creation of such a weapon was indeed possible. For two decades, perhaps longer, the possibility of a super-weapon had floated about the subconscious of the physics community, ever present and ever repressed save in the minds of a few. At the very least, there were some German physicists who understood the possibility of such a weapon, or else the S.S. would not have embarked upon its creation. It was this very act which spurned Einstein, in concert with the physics community at large, to action. The presence of war had allowed the realization of the possibility of an atom bomb: negative Si set into practice proved the proper grounds for the emergence of negative Ne into the real world.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Dual-type theory: Te and Fi as Slave

    Strong Te slave types have confidence in their relationships with others, and build new relationships easily.

    Weak Te slave types are anxious about the state of their relationships with others; they need affirmation that their relationships are stable.

    Strong Fi slave types have confidence that others like them; they know how to make themselves liked by others.

    Weak Fi slave types are anxious about whether they are liked or not, nor do they know how to be liked.

  3. #3
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    - When you say "strong Fi" do you mean "strong and valued" Fi, or strong Fi regardless of wether Fi is valued? In the latter case, why not say "strong feeling" instead?

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I was just trying to be specific.

    Just strong in general, no values emphasis.

  5. #5
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I do think what you have written is accurate. Bit straight forward though.

    Do you think there is a difference between the way slave accepting Te and slave creating Te handle relations?

  6. #6
    misutii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,234
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    According to this I have a strong Te-slave and weak Fi-slave as I'm confident of my relations but overly self-aware of how others see me.

    Could you expand this to account for what a strong Ti-slave vs. Fe-slave type would have?
    INFp-Ni

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Fe as Slave

    The extroverted feeling slave element is the most nebulous function as regards its expression in dialogue. Slave Fe is so utterly implicit that it need not be expressed in words: the context of the discussion is itself sufficient to infer a specific psychological reaction. Slave Fe induces frames of reference: it presents information in such manner as to instantly induce the recall of remembered master Fe content, thus creating a unified framework of perception essentially from nothing. This framework exists at the behest of the strong slave Fe person and is contingent on their continued justification for it. (although it should be noted that ALL slave Fe strong people contribute to its creation, therefore half of the population is creating the "reference frame" for our self-ascription at any moment.) Weak slave Fe individuals have weak understanding of context and consider it a variable and unreliable quality; instead they argue for hard fact and a concrete structure that is context independent.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Dual-type theory: Slave Ni

    Slave Ni manifests as the influence of the master element on the further progression of a system. It observes how IM elements deliniate choice and enforce opportunity cost.

    To fully apprehend Slave Ni, you must consider it at successive moments from the moment of first consideration. Then you can observe how the primary situation influences successive situations. ("evolution")

    With Ne:
    This is the capacity to observe behavioral ranges as integral to an object. (in Augusta's words, its program) The simple fact that the object's characteristics are "static" implies that the behavioral scope of the object is restrained to its static traits. The chosen behavioral act (the one that offers the most harmonious interaction while not constraining one's existing will) can be expected chosen again in similar situations. Thus relative to one's awareness of potential, behavior may be anticipated before it occurs. The more one's awareness of anothers' behavioral range, the more accurate these expectations will be.

    With Ni:
    The capacity to observe the influence choices made have on the paths further available. This is like meta-Ne/Ex-Ni except the object is observed as having an actual choice. (due to Se as a property of independent will) Ne has no authentic choice because it is seeking Si (harmony): at any given moment there is one choice that is more harmonious than the others given one's situation (I say this relative to the moment, not to the future.), and Ne will always pursue that choice. Ni, on the other hand, will take the path that allows greater will and therefore, more choice.

    This is the capacity to observe how one timeline splinters off into other timelines, multiple dimensions and the like. ("many worlds" paradox) Any single plan of events offers a variety of branches at any given point in the sequence; however, accepting any one of these branches incurrs the opportunity cost of the other branches: when you walk your path, you must continue on that path like as not, and learn to accept the choices you have made and the opportunities you have lost. Ultimately your choices are made on behalf of the opportunity to expand your will into the future. (this is the relationship between Ex-Ni and acceleration/accumulation: as the path is followed from moment to moment, will incurrs a net expansion.)

    With Te: This is classic economic opportunity cost. You make a deal with X, you don't get the deal with B. You marry Eliza, you don't get to marry Euridyce. If A bonds with C, it can't bond with D. On the other hand, commitment in marriage may offer you the opportunity to have children, to get to know them, and to have a relationship with them. Had you not earlier chosen the path of marriage, you might not have had the opportunity to have the virtues of a family lifestyle.

    Reflections: All Ni paths are chosen with the intent to increase one's will. We can thus make an assertion with regards to socionics itself, as the behavioral aspect of type is meta-Ne/Ex-Ni in nature: behavior in inacted for the purpose of enacting will, and competition between competing behavioral choices is decided on basis of how much will is expected to be cumulatively gained from the choice. Every choice incurrs cost of opportunity, therefore one should behave in such way as to maximize one's return for a given choice.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 02-16-2008 at 02:21 AM.

  9. #9
    lefty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    NY, NY
    Posts
    586
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Slave Ni manifests as the influence of the master element on the further progression of a system. It observes how IM elements deliniate choice and enforce opportunity cost.

    To fully apprehend Slave Ni, you must consider it at successive moments from the moment of first consideration. Then you can observe how the primary situation influences successive situations. ("evolution")

    With Ne:
    This is the capacity to observe behavioral ranges as integral to an object. (in Augusta's words, its program) The simple fact that the object's characteristics are "static" implies that the behavioral scope of the object is restrained to its static traits. The chosen behavioral act (the one that offers the most harmonious interaction while not constraining one's existing will) can be expected chosen again in similar situations. Thus relative to one's awareness of potential, behavior may be anticipated before it occurs. The more one's awareness of anothers' behavioral range, the more accurate these expectations will be.

    With Ni:
    The capacity to observe the influence choices made have on the paths further available. This is like meta-Ne/Ex-Ni except the object is observed as having an actual choice. (due to Se as a property of independent will) Ne has no authentic choice because it is seeking Si (harmony): at any given moment there is one choice that is more harmonious than the others given one's situation (I say this relative to the moment, not to the future.), and Ne will always pursue that choice. Ni, on the other hand, will take the path that allows greater will and therefore, more choice.

    This is the capacity to observe how one timeline splinters off into other timelines, multiple dimensions and the like. ("many worlds" paradox) Any single plan of events offers a variety of branches at any given point in the sequence; however, accepting any one of these branches incurrs the opportunity cost of the other branches: when you walk your path, you must continue on that path like as not, and learn to accept the choices you have made and the opportunities you have lost. Ultimately your choices are made on behalf of the opportunity to expand your will into the future. (this is the relationship between Ex-Ni and acceleration/accumulation: as the path is followed from moment to moment, will incurrs a net expansion.)

    [more to come]

    Reflections: All Ni paths are chosen with the intent to increase one's will. We can thus make an assertion with regards to socionics itself, as the behavioral aspect of type is meta-Ne/Ex-Ni in nature: behavior in inacted for the purpose of enacting will, and competition between competing behavioral choices is decided on basis of how much will is expected to be cumulatively gained from the choice. Every choice incurrs cost of opportunity, therefore one should behave in such way as to maximize one's return for a given choice.


    why are you unwilling to explain the jargon that you use? eventually i get the feeling youre just conversing with yourself.
    Lefty
    ENFJ

    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty View Post
    why are you unwilling to explain the jargon that you use? eventually i get the feeling youre just conversing with yourself.
    "Ex-" means exertion; "meta-" means information metabolism.

    Beyond that, see wikisocion/hypotheses or look back through my previous posts on dual-type theory.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Dual-type theory: Ne Slave and Model B

    Ne slave is felt is experienced differently depending on its position in Model B.

    1st function

    - : This person draws out the potential in others. He observes means of motivating people (+Fi) and implements these means to see them fulfill their common ideals. The triumph of the many is the triumph of the one: by releasing the potential in others, the -Ne person's own potential has been realized. This person sees the purpose of creativity as creating motivation, the pursuit of which leads to the release of pent-up energy that makes things happen. The antithesis to be conquered by this type is the injustice wrought which leads to the ascension of the one. (+Ne) The realization of the one's potential can be a threat to the realization of the many if the two are in conflict. The ENFp exertion type trusts that motivation to realize pent up potential will win out over the respect for social restraint which releases the potential of those who would exploit it.

    +: the person is a realizer of fantastic worlds: they make fantasy reality. They know how to arrange parts and components harmoniously to create things lesser Ne types may believe impossible; they will not leave anything out. This person has a strong need to incorporate their ideals into real working product, and will hone the skills necessary to pull it off. They are accompanied in this by their -Ti, which observes the ways rules are formed and can be used to engineer rules for the governance of their product's function whatever the sitaution and whatever the material at hand. This type rarely if ever produces a product that has a defect; if they do, they will make every effort to repair it right away.

    In the world of this type, there are rules and regulations for everything: every rule is balanced by a counter-rule, allowing the world to function not unlike a well-ordered machine. These rules are observed as shaping the energy flow of the system: the invocation of rule A makes B happen, which invokes rule C to make D happen, etc.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Dual-type theory: Ne exerted = choice

    I believe that Ne expressed as energy is the factor of choice. We make choices and depending on those choices paths open or close to us. I believe the impact of the choice -- the path we follow in direct consequence to it -- is Ni energy. (realized time)

    This reminds me of the "many worlds" paradox in physics, where one choice can splinter off a new timeline altogether in a seperate universe. To get more technical about it though, an investigation into the transcendent thought process under which confidence in such a theory emerged, would be required.

    A lithogram is a better example, and also demonstrates Ni. A lithogram consists of paths that have the common relationship of being intrinsic to the lithogram object. Within the lithogram are junctions which allow a choice of paths. Choosing one path means the loss of the choice of the other paths. This seems to me the substance of clash between objective (-) and subjective (+) intuitive energies.

  13. #13
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ok...

    My view on this is that any "empowering" function signifies a degree of freedom, and with that a certain part of the observed situation in which one is free to exercise choice.

    Empowering = accepting static (Ne, Fi, Se, Ti) or creating dynamic (Ni, Fe, Si, Te)

    However, accepting static functions signify highly RANDOM choices, "attempts", whereas creating dynamic functions signify educated, refined choices.

    Accepting/Empowering/Static: I choose this because it COULD be the right answer
    Creating/Empowering/Dynamic: I choose this because I know it IS one of the right answers

    I would, of course, assume that this works the same in the slave type as it does in the master type.

    Also keep the following in mind:

    Extrovert TYPE = ego block empowering perceiving
    Introvert TYPE = ego block empowering judging

    In my interpretation, extroverted choice signifies the ability to explore, whereas introverted choice signifies the ability to choose wether one does or does not perform a certain action in light of knowledge of where the action in question would lead one to (note that the ability to explore is largely lost this way, as choice of action is based on knowledge of the end result).

    Any way...

    I'd look into the difference between ACCEPTING and CREATING Ne. You may find there are some major differences between the two with respect to wether they do or do not merit being called functions of choice.
    Last edited by krieger; 06-08-2008 at 09:23 PM.

  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Ok...

    My view on this is that any "empowering" function signifies a degree of freedom, and with that a certain part of the observed situation in which one is free to exercise choice.

    Empowering = accepting static (Ne, Fi, Se, Ti) or creating dynamic (Ni, Fe, Si, Te)

    However, accepting static functions signify highly RANDOM choices, "attempts", whereas creating dynamic functions signify educated, refined choices.

    Accepting/Empowering/Static: I choose this because it COULD be the right answer
    Creating/Empowering/Dynamic: I choose this because I know it IS one of the right answers

    I would, of course, assume that this works the same in the slave type as it does in the master type.

    Also keep the following in mind:

    Extrovert TYPE = ego block empowering perceiving
    Introvert TYPE = ego block empowering judging

    In my interpretation, extroverted choice signifies the ability to explore, whereas introverted choice signifies the ability to choose wether one does or does not perform a certain action in light of knowledge of where the action in question would lead one to (note that the ability to explore is largely lost this way, as choice of action is based on knowledge of the end result).

    Any way...

    I'd look into the difference between ACCEPTING and CREATING Ne. You may find there are some major differences between the two with respect to wether they do or do not merit being called functions of choice.
    I'm settled on ex-Ne as the choice factor. I usually assume that people because I have been told read that such is true by Ne accepting types such as yourself. But, people usually argue with me when I tell that to them, nor can I really substantiate it beyond a presumption of belief. (The adaptists in particular are uncomfortable with the notion of choice as being something that can be controlled -- though let me caution that type manifestations tend to be, in my experience, exagerrated in individualist adaptists because they try to use all of the functions at their disposal to succeed. Socionics awareness may ultimately temper this tendency, but even then we can probably count on self-possessed "experimentalists" to push their functions to the egregrious max even after being told not to on a cultural scale. (this will be a tough sell for conservative individualists in particular; we've seen it often enough on this forum)). The point is that I cannot substantiate that people do not have choice as regards the choices they make without being made aware of aspects external to my type. Someone like you though, would observe that people's motivations, wherever those come from, do indeed produce choices. Motivations are constellated by whatever, and thus choices are made in service to them. Many of the fundamental motivations that are assumed in supersocion theory were in fact attested to by you; I try to compound these motivations and their choices into systems of behavior.

    What I'm really trying to figure out now, is how to conceptualize the relationship between choices and paths. Your choices determine which paths you take, but they also determine paths you cannot take. Your paths present you with choices, yet they also constrain your choices to the degree you stick with them....

  15. #15
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    One thing I'd look into as an alternative possibility is wether you might simply be seeing this "choice" aspect in all people with Static master types and Static slave types.

    Like I explained earlier, Static types have Accepting Empowering functions, which manifests as highly freewheeling, almost random choices.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    One thing I'd look into as an alternative possibility is wether you might simply be seeing this "choice" aspect in all people with Static master types and Static slave types.

    Like I explained earlier, Static types have Accepting Empowering functions, which manifests as highly freewheeling, almost random choices.
    We make choices exclusively to relieve tension. Tension is -Si, therefore choice is +Ne. I would say determination is -Ne, because it the the choice of the object as a means of restraining the choice of the subject. -Ne is choice already made for you; +Ne is choice that you actually have.

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Dual-type theory: -Ne Master with + Slave: the Self Within

    After much consideration, I've determined that what it means for a subjective energy to be considered in the context of an objective relationship thereto, is that the subject itself constitutes the object. What this means in the case of -Ne, is that one perceives oneself within the observed content. It is the method and means of projection. For example, if one observes +Fi aspects related by -Ne, one is seeing one's own motives and desires within another person. The subject projects their own selves into the object they observe. A clearer example may be the ascription of human traits to objects, such as for example cars that seem to be smiling (kids do this a lot), or the Disney practice of portraying animals as having human traits.

    The spectrum of -Ne with exertion '+' includes:

    * +Ti = the object possess one's own organization
    * +Fi = the object shares one's own motives
    * +Fe = the object shares one's own emotions
    * +Te = the object shares in one's own work
    * +Ni = the object walks the same path as oneself
    * +Ne = one's own choices are the object's
    * +Se = the object's expressed will is one's own
    * +Si = the object's imagination is one's own

    Contrast these with the -Ne exertion '-' set, which maintains that the object's inner qualities are distinct from one's own.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    With regard to the transcendent function, it seems clear to me that it was because I had repressed -Ne in my own personality as a child that I could not observe the essence of "myself" within other people. The concept of a self-essence is attested to from a social standpoint, in that we (most of us) have the ability to process viewpoints that are different from our own, and thus share in our essences as social beings. That LIIs/INTjs in general repress -Ne in our youth explains why we tend to be so naive as to whether or not people share in our views. (before achieving transcendence)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •