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    Default Empathy and Socionics

    I'd like to start a discussion on empathy and Socionics. For example, what functions do you think empathy is associated with?

    I would also like to share with you some cases where I've experienced empathy myself. When I was told, by several people, that I was empathetic, I couldn't quite believe it, because it had never occurred to me that I might be empathetic. But, when I watched myself talking with others, I could sense a kind of intuitive 'seeing' into other people, their moods, vibes and so on.

    It wasn't a touchy-feely thing, and nor could I do write-ups of the exactly what kind of person you might me. I also noticed that I found it more comfortable to let it be, at the back of my mind, and not try to force it. It just got tiring if I forced myself to use it.

    What do you make of all this?

    Happy discussions
    Five/Tanzhe

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    Default Re: Empathy and Socionics

    Most socionists agree it's due to , but I think it's .

    types are NOT empathetic.

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    Default Re: Empathy and Socionics

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Most socionists agree it's due to , but I think it's .

    types are NOT empathetic.
    If you combine this with your view that introverts don't accept people as they are, it sounds like IxFj's would be the biggest a-holes out there.

    I would agree with you that there is a sense of empathy that is . I mean, how could there be empathy without visual clues and trying to put yourself in their shoes? Granting that this comes from an NF point of view, I would say that empathy in general comes easiest to feeling types, without having to say that they will necessarily make use of that talent. That being said, non-feeling types might very well value empathy and make attempts at cultivating the skill. In any case, categorically denying or asserting things of various types of people just seems the wrong way to go. I would think this would be more obvious the deeper you delved into socionics, that all we have to work with is what is perceptually given to us using the abilities and values we possess, and that these will necessarily inform a skewed view of the world. I'm sure the judgements you pass have their basis in your experience. I'd be doing you a disservice if I didn't, but to divide up people in the sense that these people are simply this way and those people are purely that seems to sell them all out. Maybe you just mean all these statements are generalizations, but, as an outside observer, you appear to state them as self-evident facts. Perhaps I've misunderstood where it is you're coming from and you can enlighten me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Whereas a empathy of agreeable morality, righteousness, close deep relationship is .
    types are not agreeable. They are stone-hearted and make others feel guilty all the time. And they speak like tape recorders.

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    Default Re: Empathy and Socionics

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Most socionists agree it's due to , but I think it's .

    types are NOT empathetic.
    That's rubbish.
    I think Gamma/Delta will find types to be empathetic and Beta/Alpha will find types to be empathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    types are not agreeable. They are stone-hearted and make others feel guilty all the time. And they speak like tape recorders.
    Again, it's a matter of perception. I feel that types make ME feel guilty all the time, all that guilt tripping, etc. And they like saying "hi" to any random stranger, and talk to me like they've known me for years even when we just met. That is enough to make me uncomfortable. So can I say that it makes types uncomfortable as well? Of course not.
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    Default Re: Empathy and Socionics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Most socionists agree it's due to , but I think it's .

    types are NOT empathetic.
    That's rubbish.
    I think Gamma/Delta will find types to be empathetic and Beta/Alpha will find types to be empathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    types are not agreeable. They are stone-hearted and make others feel guilty all the time. And they speak like tape recorders.
    Again, it's a matter of perception. I feel that types make ME feel guilty all the time, all that guilt tripping, etc. And they like saying "hi" to any random stranger, and talk to me like they've known me for years even when we just met. That is enough to make me uncomfortable. So can I say that it makes types uncomfortable as well? Of course not.
    Good example of Fe vs Fi. I get annoyed that types treat people so cold unless they've known them for years. Like being nice to other people is a privilege only for friends and everyone else gets the cold and indifferent treatment. And types make me feel guilty all the time. I have to treat them very nice and friendly after I reach their friend-list. I have friend-obligations. There's no casual chit-chat anymore. When I'm with a type close friend and some type acquiantance, I have to treat the friend better and I should be moderately cold to the acquaintance. I don't really think about it much, but that's how I immidiately behave and I know what would happen if I didn't. Quite the opposite.
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    Default Re: Empathy and Socionics

    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    I'd like to start a discussion on empathy and Socionics. For example, what functions do you think empathy is associated with?

    I would also like to share with you some cases where I've experienced empathy myself. When I was told, by several people, that I was empathetic, I couldn't quite believe it, because it had never occurred to me that I might be empathetic. But, when I watched myself talking with others, I could sense a kind of intuitive 'seeing' into other people, their moods, vibes and so on.

    It wasn't a touchy-feely thing, and nor could I do write-ups of the exactly what kind of person you might me. I also noticed that I found it more comfortable to let it be, at the back of my mind, and not try to force it. It just got tiring if I forced myself to use it.

    What do you make of all this?
    Happy discussions

    empathy for me is a big deal. ive read descriptions of enfjs before that supposedly we can sort of go into a person and imagine life as they're feeling it and i can relate to that.

    i have problems with religion, because i feel that it kind of reroutes empathy to be a vicarious instead of a personal experience.

    i have no idea how to describe it but i very much value my intuition and sometimes i'm preoccupied with the abilities of all the types to filter reality as well as experiencing my intuition in relationship to external events.
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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    types are not agreeable. They are stone-hearted and make others feel guilty all the time. And they speak like tape recorders.
    Is that a Socionics fact?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    types are not agreeable. They are stone-hearted and make others feel guilty all the time. And they speak like tape recorders.
    Is that a Socionics fact?
    At least, my grandma is EII and says the same things all the time, like a tape recorder ; besides, my EII sister is a progressive hippie who do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    types are not agreeable. They are stone-hearted and make others feel guilty all the time. And they speak like tape recorders.
    Is that a Socionics fact?
    At least, my grandma is EII and says the same things all the time, like a tape recorder ; besides, my EII sister is a progressive hippie who do so.
    My ESE mom says the same things all the time. Yes. She's a living tape recorder.

    Seriously, many moms do this, so I don't see any reason why your grandma shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I get annoyed that types treat people so cold unless they've known them for years. Like being nice to other people is a privilege only for friends and everyone else gets the cold and indifferent treatment.
    I think this is true. I've heard similar comments from types about types.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    I have to treat them very nice and friendly
    I work hard to be that way among types too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Seriously, many moms do this, so I don't see any reason why your grandma shouldn't.
    my mom is EIE, and doesn't much do...

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    Default Re: Empathy and Socionics

    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    I think Gamma/Delta will find types to be empathetic and Beta/Alpha will find types to be empathetic.
    *nods head*
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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Seriously, many moms do this, so I don't see any reason why your grandma shouldn't.
    my mom is EIE, and doesn't much do...
    I did say many. Not all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    types are not agreeable. They are stone-hearted and make others feel guilty all the time. And they speak like tape recorders.
    Is that a Socionics fact?
    At least, my grandma is EII and says the same things all the time, like a tape recorder ; besides, my EII sister is a progressive hippie who do so.
    I'm impressed by the size of your sampling. You've proven your case, it is indeed a Socionics fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    types are not agreeable. They are stone-hearted and make others feel guilty all the time. And they speak like tape recorders.
    Is that a Socionics fact?
    At least, my grandma is EII and says the same things all the time, like a tape recorder ; besides, my EII sister is a progressive hippie who do so.
    I'm impressed by the size of your sampling. You've proven your case, it is indeed a Socionics fact.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Thank you all for your contributions.

    This thread appears to have split into two - the first is about empathy, and the second is about machintruc's methodology.

    Machintruc, I would like to ask that you supply some evidence for the claims about empathy that you have made.

    If anyone would like to continue to debate with machintruc about his methodology, please feel free to do so, but in another thread. It's nothing personal; I guess I would just prefer to keep on-topic.

    And, as for empathy, it seems that there are two types of empathy: Fi-empathy and Fe-empathy. In your experience, what are these 'like'? Can you give examples? What do you make of my experience of empathy?

    Thanks again for good discussions
    Five/Tanzhe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Five
    Machintruc, I would like to ask that you supply some evidence for the claims about empathy that you have made.
    His mom and sister annoy him by repeating the same guilt trips over and over again. What more evidence could you possibly want?
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    I think there are different kinds of emphathy:

    1. Emphathy in the most common sense of the word, which involves feeling other people's emotional state/feelings, but not necessarily doing anything. This would be ethics related ( or ).
    2. The kind of empathy when a person doesn't really display any emotions or sympathy, but feels sorry for someone inside and decides to help them. For instance, someone's computer crashes and they help them restore it because they see the person is helpless and feel sorry for them, and they happen to know how to solve the problem. This is probably not related to socionic functions.
    3. Leading function empathy. A person "empathizes" with others' situation in life, etc.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    I think there are different kinds of emphathy:

    1. Emphathy in the most common sense of the word, which involves feeling other people's emotional state/feelings, but not necessarily doing anything. This would be ethics related ( or ).
    2. The kind of empathy when a person doesn't really display any emotions or sympathy, but feels sorry for someone inside and decides to help them. For instance, someone's computer crashes and they help them restore it because they see the person is helpless and feel sorry for them, and they happen to know how to solve the problem. This is probably not related to socionic functions.
    3. Leading function empathy. A person "empathizes" with others' situation in life, etc.
    i agree with rick. i think empathy in terms of truly feeling and identifying with someone else's emotional state is , but the ways in which you may show you empathasize and show concern over their situation may be , but once again these 2 groupings are not exclusive. Whether you feel empathy from someone or not depends on your relationship with them and what you both value.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    I think there are different kinds of emphathy:

    1. Emphathy in the most common sense of the word, which involves feeling other people's emotional state/feelings, but not necessarily doing anything. This would be ethics related ( or ).
    2. The kind of empathy when a person doesn't really display any emotions or sympathy, but feels sorry for someone inside and decides to help them. For instance, someone's computer crashes and they help them restore it because they see the person is helpless and feel sorry for them, and they happen to know how to solve the problem. This is probably not related to socionic functions.
    3. Leading function empathy. A person "empathizes" with others' situation in life, etc.
    Great analysis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Five View Post
    I'd like to start a discussion on empathy and Socionics. For example, what functions do you think empathy is associated with?

    I would also like to share with you some cases where I've experienced empathy myself. When I was told, by several people, that I was empathetic, I couldn't quite believe it, because it had never occurred to me that I might be empathetic. But, when I watched myself talking with others, I could sense a kind of intuitive 'seeing' into other people, their moods, vibes and so on.

    It wasn't a touchy-feely thing, and nor could I do write-ups of the exactly what kind of person you might me. I also noticed that I found it more comfortable to let it be, at the back of my mind, and not try to force it. It just got tiring if I forced myself to use it.

    What do you make of all this?

    Happy discussions
    I think empathy or the ability to feel for others can be or related. Nearly all NFs seem to have empathy for others in one form or another. With regards to the SFs, I prefer the ESFj/ISFp style of empathy compared to the ESFp/ISFj style. To me, ESFp/ISFjs seem to be mainly or only concerned with being deeply compassionate and extending understanding to the people close to them most times while ISFps/ESFjs don't really seem to require the close connection, friendship and bonding to be empathetic as much and they are just generally more pleasant and giving towards those they don't know well in my experience with these types. To me the hallmark of true empathy is where you can express it to those who are not close to you as readily and as easily as to those who are distant or who you might not like personally.

    I find this question interesting coming from an ISTj who seeks because I cannot imagine my ISTp brother or any other ISTp I know of asking a question like this. My brother would probably even mock this topic.

    P.S Not to say my brother is unkind but empathy for others especially outside his family is not really something he seems very concerned with. He is just not very in tune with the "internal dynamics" of others if you will.
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