How do LSEs-ESTjs approach relationships

[UDP]

Discuss your observations, or share an example. How do LSEs go about relationships, in your experience?

[mustachio]

shouldn't you know? i mean seriously...

[UDP]

If I wanted to know my experiences and observations, I would not have made this thread.

[xyz]

My LSE housemate seems to constantly go from fling to fling.

[Christy B]

Discuss your observations, or share an example. How do LSEs go about relationships, in your experience?

19-30 yr old males seem to cheat a lot (and maybe older ones do too). I have seen both TE and SI types do this. When I have pointed out both how this is "wrong", and the future consequences (i.e. the girlfriend they claim to love will breakup with them), they appear to care only about not getting caught. "Everyone does this" has been a common response. This bothers me.

[UDP]

You're serious about this cheating & fling stuff?

[Christy B]

You're serious about this cheating & fling stuff?

Yes.

[UDP]

I have never cheated, and it is extremely unbearable for me to consider doing such a thing.
I don't believe I have ever had a fling either, although I'm not sure what that entails.
"Short term relationships" seems like an oxymoron to me.


Neither of them I would say are "my way of doing things".
...But I think that is more to do with my own personal stance (or experiences and what I have witnessed), rather than being type related.


I know one ESTj who married his highschool sweeathart, and they are still married (they are almost 50 now). Te LSE & Fi ESI



PS: I may have neglected the "age factor". In that sense, I have always been an old, elderly soul I guess. Even in high school my teachers commented about it.

[Jarno]

I know 2 ESTJ pretty well.

One of them cheated once, the other I don't think so.

Cheating is not something I would associate with LSE. On contrary. But well, I don't know if cheating is type related or just human related...

[FDG]

Cheating is not type related

[Christy B]

Cheating is not type related

Oh yeah. I know. This has been my experience with many of the LSEs I have known. Maybe the WAY a person cheats, and/ or justifies cheating is type related?

[Christy B]

Discuss your observations, or share an example. How do LSEs go about relationships, in your experience?

19-30 yr old males seem to cheat a lot (and maybe older ones do too). I have seen both TE and SI types do this. When I have pointed out both how this is "wrong", and the future consequences (i.e. the girlfriend they claim to love will breakup with them), they appear to care only about not getting caught. "Everyone does this" has been a common response. This bothers me.

Sorry. This looks like I think ALL LSEs are like this. I don't. I actually wrote a much longer post which went into more detail and was clearer about how my evidence for these statments comes from the actions of 4 specific LSE (2 Si, 2 Te) who happen to be between the ages of 19-30. I tried to post this, but lost internet connection and then lost origional post, so I just wrote the above post quickly.


It was not just the fact that these 4 LSEs cheated that was my original point. It was more about HOW these 4 seemed to do it, and their reactions to my pointing it out as "wrong", that seemed similar:

-They have cheated when their girlfriend was physically away from them for some period of time, long vacation, study abroad.
-View cheating as just sex, no harm done if girlfriend doesn't find out.
-They have cheated not with girls who they like or particularly respect, but girls who will hook up with them and they will not talk to these girls later.
-They will be completely honest with the girl they are hooking up about the fact that they do have a girlfriend, and that their interaction will be just sex.
-Have justified their cheating by saying that "everyone does it" (2 Te subtypes), "it happens"(Si), and other Si subtype just shrugged.
-It was like they really did not see the connection with how what they were doing would hurt someone they loved, because their feelings were not involved with the girls they were cheating with.

All of this may not be type related, but these are the 4 LSEs I have been closest with in my life and this is how they have acted in their relationships.

[implied]

It was not just the fact that these 4 LSEs cheated that was my original point. It was more about HOW these 4 seemed to do it, and their reactions to my pointing it out as "wrong", that seemed similar:

-They have cheated when their girlfriend was physically away from them for some period of time, long vacation, study abroad.
-View cheating as just sex, no harm done if girlfriend doesn't find out.
-They have cheated not with girls who they like or particularly respect, but girls who will hook up with them and they will not talk to these girls later.
-They will be completely honest with the girl they are hooking up about the fact that they do have a girlfriend, and that their interaction will be just sex.
-Have justified their cheating by saying that "everyone does it" (2 Te subtypes), "it happens"(Si), and other Si subtype just shrugged.
-It was like they really did not see the connection with how what they were doing would hurt someone they loved, because their feelings were not involved with the girls they were cheating with.

All of this may not be type related, but these are the 4 LSEs I have been closest with in my life and this is how they have acted in their relationships.

hah, glad your observations match mine! "everyone does it," is still such a piss poor justification to me. why not do something unique, then? but it sounds accurate. also agree with them coming off as serial monogamists/serial "fling" participants haha. maybe it's weak Ni & weak Fe making them pretty naive as to the long term effect their actions have in an ethical sense, or that it seems hypocritical, etc etc etc. my brother, who i believe is a pretty "standard" ESTj, has pulled this sort of crap before, too.


(((standard disclaimer that cheating isn't entirely type-related.)))

[FDG]

-They have cheated when their girlfriend was physically away from them for some period of time, long vacation, study abroad.

Ah ok. Obviously a relationship isn't sustainable if one of the two parties is away for more than say, 2-3 months. They should have just broken it off for that time.

I notice girls have very different approaches to the matter. For them (you?) going 6 months without physical contact supposedly does not impact the relationship, for example.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Megan]

@glamourama

I can only guess at it. ESTjs usually seem really upright and can often talk of honesty quite a bit. Where the dishonest ones are concerned you often have to be quite close to them to see the dishonesty and hypocrisy in their behavior, they are rather subtle when they do certain things and they do happen to be very convincingly self-justifying and like to talk about how everyone else is doing whatever. Individual Socionists often do not know all the 16 types of people they are writing about very closely and they often seem to just write about the the obvious, superficial behavior of certain types. Another reason is that I do actually think that most ESTjs really are honest and hold honesty in high regard. I do wish socionists would stop making it seem though that some types are just always more honest than certain other types.

Dishonest ESTjs always remind me of a sunday school teacher I used to have, always talking about what is good and seeming to be perfect himself yet was quietly known by everyone around to be a frequent patron of strip clubs and paid sex and doing a host of other things which went against his perfect image and ideals.

[UDP]

Why an ESTj can struggle or be a hypocrite is because they know they ought to be better about things, especially hardwired for an EII dual. However, it is their own personal choices that determine their lives.

That being said, and being one always for accountability, I have over the last year or so realized that having a variety of people in your life is important so you can figure out what is best for you and who you need to be around to live a positive and productive life.

[munenori2]

You know, I find this whole thread deeply disturbing to my morale.

"Everyone else is doing it?" Is that ever a good excuse for anything? Not that I'm getting down on all LSEs for the vile acts of a few, but if a friend gave that as a reason for why they cheated on their bf/gf (let's not even talk spouses) I would have a hard time trusting them in the future.

[UDP]

The people who value things like this need to stick together in this world - that's what I take away from it.
So in that light,


.... hello friends

[Christy B]

-They have cheated when their girlfriend was physically away from them for some period of time, long vacation, study abroad.

Ah ok. Obviously a relationship isn't sustainable if one of the two parties is away for more than say, 2-3 months. They should have just broken it off for that time.

I notice girls have very different approaches to the matter. For them (you?) going 6 months without physical contact supposedly does not impact the relationship, for example.

Another bad sentence on my part (I always write when I am really tired and sometimes stuff doesn't come out right).

The period of time does not always have to be long, but it seems their absence is like some kind of excuse. One guy's girlfriend was only gone for three days. He loved her and does still love her (in fact they are getting married).

Another guy is a pro athlete and he told me he cheated on his girlfriend, if they were far apart, even if only for a week or two. She was far enough away on the planet that it seemed to him "OK", because she was not around. (OK. I know a lot of pro athletes do this, but these two were a pretty high profile couple, they dated for many years, and he loved her A LOT. I think he still does.)

Third LSE waited three weeks into a two month vacation before cheating. He talked with his girlfriend every day on phone and online. They are planning on getting married.

The longest time period away, was with the 4th LSE. He waited one month into a 2 month study abroad trip his girlfriend went on. He actually screwed over his two best friends with this one by cheating on his girlfriend with his best guy friend's girlfriend! (All three had been best friends since childhood). The best friend was also on the study abroad trip.

I agree that people should just be honest and break up for the time they are away if they need physical contact. It is the blatant lying that sucks.

[Christy B]

The people who value things like this need to stick together in this world - that's what I take away from it.
So in that light,


.... hello friends

Hi UDP . I am sorry if I have taken this thread and turned it into the LSEs are cheaters thread. I will try to post more about the other (positive) aspects of LSE in realtionships. . .

[FDG]

-They have cheated when their girlfriend was physically away from them for some period of time, long vacation, study abroad.

Ah ok. Obviously a relationship isn't sustainable if one of the two parties is away for more than say, 2-3 months. They should have just broken it off for that time.

I notice girls have very different approaches to the matter. For them (you?) going 6 months without physical contact supposedly does not impact the relationship, for example.

You know what I find weird? When two people have a long-distance relationship and one of them seems to prefer it that way. That's just. . . I couldn't take/can't take someone not wanting to actually be with me if I was in a relationship with them. Basically they don't actually want a relationship in that case - so what are they doing? It makes no sense. However, if you have to be apart, but don't really want to be, then I see no reason to break things off for that reason alone, since you will at some point in the future actually be together.

Well uhm Might be just my young age, but I don't trust myself being really able not to hit on other girls if a girlfriend were to be away for, say, more than 2 months.

Christi's examples though sound really pretty bad!!

[UDP]

*edited*


And the nail in the coffin is when it makes you question people's ultimate loyalty
is it to you, your relationship? Or is to servicing their physical needs?
If it is the later, then you are expendable, and in that situation, it does not yield much trust. It let's you know clearly just what the "relationship" means to those involved. But why wait for this to happen? You couldn't bear to be forthright about your intentions or needs before hand? No? Then is that not an act of cowardice and dishonor? A general sort of pathetic-ness that seems to be quite common place, and even aggrandized.

Furthermore it borders on shrugging off accountability, or pretending like your actions don't have consequences and don't reveal who you are based on the decisions you make - you and no one else. For better or worse you see who someone really is by the choices they make.

I'm more maniacal about this than most, but the truth is, I can't stand seeing pathetic relationships.
I can't stand bullshit bonds people make, bullshit promises, bullshit values. I can't trust them. I've spent my whole life searching for things that actually stand up to the test of reality, seeing these fake "ethical structures", or seeing structures abused or used for bullshit, sloppy, or otherwise insubstantial ends.
I've seen first hand how people break down and change - and lie to themselves about their actions, and it is quite disgusting.

Oh, I know I am a part of it too. I am no saint. But at least I can make my stand about what it means to be fake, about what is real. I will not tolerate inferior quality.


PS: Perhaps I will be like Mr T - and instead of saying the obvious thing of "treat your mother right", I will have to give out the common sense of "treat your relationship with respect"

[UDP]

Well uhm Might be just my young age, but I don't trust myself being really able not to hit on other girls if a girlfriend were to be away for, say, more than 2 months.

When people around my age or older attribute these sorts of things to their "young age", it make me feel like my birth certificate must be inaccurate or somethng.

Yeah? (if that is the case for you,)Then I'm not form this planet.


edited for clarity

[UDP]

You are implying that you must be older than you are, or, that you are from a different generation. Taking that further, the next step would be being from a different time period. I took this even further to say not even from the same planet.

[FDG]

Well uhm Might be just my young age, but I don't trust myself being really able not to hit on other girls if a girlfriend were to be away for, say, more than 2 months.

When people around my age or older attribute these sorts of things to their "young age", it make me feel like my birth certificate must be inaccurate or somethng.

I say may, which is probabilistic. Other factors might come into play, no need to be self-righteous. Personally, I find physical touch (not necessarily sex) to be a key factor in being in a relationship. If it is not present, I won't be with the person.

In any case, there is a clear difference on the matter (I have observed, at least) between males and females.

[FDG]

Well uhm Might be just my young age, but I don't trust myself being really able not to hit on other girls if a girlfriend were to be away for, say, more than 2 months.

When people around my age or older attribute these sorts of things to their "young age", it make me feel like my birth certificate must be inaccurate or something.

I say may, which is probabilistic. Other factors might come into play, no need to be self-righteous. Personally, I find physical touch (not necessarily sex) to be a key factor in being in a relationship. If it is not present, I won't be with the person.

In any case, there is a clear difference on the matter (I have observed, at least) between males and females.

It wasn't intended to be self-righteous, I just find it confusing when people attribute things to age, and very often it just seems to be an excuse for poor behaviour (though not what you're referring to, obviously).

Yeah, it's an excuse, but I think that it's plausible: younger age sometimes implies less experience, and for those that cannot predict well the consequences of their behavior, less insight on the impact of their actions on their lives.

[UDP]

You are implying that you must be older than you are, or, that you are from a different generation. Taking that further, the next step would be being from a different time period. I took this even further to say not even from the same planet.

Why? And why pick my post to make that comment in response to?

I was basically saying

+ 100000^999999999999999999999999999999999999

to your post. I was agreeing with you and then taking it to the highest level.

Apparently you didn't get it, and/or my Ne HA is showing.

[FDG]

UDP, you're not from another planet. Everybody has some mature behaviors and some immature ones. Again, it's useless to get off over your self-righteousness when you haven't even experienced a longer term relationship and thus know what you find necessary.

[UDP]

FDG,
You don't know I started writing my original post on this part of the topic before you wrote yours
You don't know that I wrote a disclaimer originally in that post, about you - after previewing my original post and seeing what you had written - because you are so sensitive to my posts on this matter
You don't know that I edited that original post severely
You don't know what kind of relationships I have been in - (or do you have access to my personal diary?)

You don't realize I am the way I am for reasons other than self righteousness - and you interpret it as self righteousness because it bothers you in that way
Why is this about self-righteousness?
This is about bullshit relationships, not me being better than you.
But you have remarked in the past about how you interpret my posts like this as personal attacks on your character - when in fact I don't really give a damn about your character or your feelings (that is not what I thought about when making my post, or any other post honestly).
I'm talking about real trust.




The reason why I am the way I am about relationships isn't about righteousness. It's about loyalty and trust. This isn't about morality. It is because I don't like losing control. If my girlfriend said what you said, and we were away for so long, knowing you I'd be freaking out based - to hell with morality, I just wouldn't trust you. I don't care if it is 'moral' or not. You're not worthy of my affections if you can't stay loyal to me, and you sure aren't worthy of my fealty either.

What bothers me is when people put their own personal comfort above the meaning of the bonds they make. It destroys trust, for me at least. If you have to, FDG, interpret what I say as "being self righteous", then so bet it - but realize that you are rationalizing what I'm saying. If I was at all interested in being righteous, I would personally address you as some sort of heathen, or scumbag, or use some ethical remark to categorize you, but I have not done that, FDG. So realize that your calling me self righteous is some excuse you are coming up with on your own.

I don't tolerate people fucking around with my relationships, end of story.
You may not like it that I point out the fucking around that other people do, but so be it. I'm sure you can deal with it.
If I am anything, I am a control freak - not "self righteous" about relationships.

[implied]

i'm beginning to think it has nothing to do with how honest they actually are, just what they expect out of other people. they just want an honest partner and aren't concerned about nurturing any of these qualities in themselves. aside from that they have a sort of "i can justify anything i do" attitude, sort of like ENTps are described. i mean, an ESTj could walk in here and say "i've never cheated," but also justify it in ways that christi described. "i never cheated because the relationship was ending anyway." or like, "i wasn't emotionally invested in this person thus this person i cheated on you with is a non-person thus i wasn't really cheating because to really cheat you have to respect the person as a person," or some convoluted crap like this.

[betterthandead]

yomama

[UDP]

It is true for me

i'm beginning to think it has nothing to do with how honest they actually are, just what they expect out of other people. they just want an honest partner and aren't concerned about nurturing any of these qualities in themselves. aside from that they have a sort of "i can justify anything i do" attitude, sort of like ENTps are described. i mean, an ESTj could walk in here anyone could walk in here, if you are going to go that way (not just one specific type)...
and say "i've never cheated," but also justify it in ways that christi described. "i never cheated because the relationship was ending anyway." or like, "i wasn't emotionally invested in this person thus this person i cheated on you with is a non-person thus i wasn't really cheating because to really cheat you have to respect the person as a person," or some convoluted crap like this.

Not every LSE is that way, but I can see situations where some might be as such

[munenori2]

i'm beginning to think it has nothing to do with how honest they actually are, just what they expect out of other people. they just want an honest partner and aren't concerned about nurturing any of these qualities in themselves. aside from that they have a sort of "i can justify anything i do" attitude, sort of like ENTps are described. i mean, an ESTj could walk in here and say "i've never cheated," but also justify it in ways that christi described. "i never cheated because the relationship was ending anyway." or like, "i wasn't emotionally invested in this person thus this person i cheated on you with is a non-person thus i wasn't really cheating because to really cheat you have to respect the person as a person," or some convoluted crap like this.

That sounds more like an unhealthy behavior than a typical one. If it were, I think the whole ESTj/INFj deal would be less of a dualization and more of a ticking time bomb.

[UDP]

Why an ESTj can struggle or be a hypocrite is because they know they ought to be better about things, especially hardwired for an EII dual. However, it is their own personal choices that determine their lives.

That being said, and being one always for accountability, I have over the last year or so realized that having a variety of people in your life is important so you can figure out what is best for you and who you need to be around to live a positive and productive life.

Candy ass words from a younger self.