leaning towards ILI

[strrrng]

I've always been generally unsure of my type, but I've recently studied myself and socionics more carefully, and now believe I am probably ILI instead of LII. I see myself identifying more with the abstract, visionary than the scrupulous . I am almost 100% certain I am of the irrational temperament. And I identify much more with polr than . Anyway, I was just hoping I could get some feedback from you gammas about your values, etc., or even ILI's and what you think distinguishes you from LII's.

[Jarno]

ILI's are extremely lazy. Will not put much effort in school or jobs.

[discojoe]

Please don't lean towards an ILI, as they are very touchy about their personal space.

[strrrng]

ILI's are extremely lazy. Will not put much effort in school or jobs.

could this not as equally apply to INTj's, due to the Se polr?

[Jarno]

ILI's are extremely lazy. Will not put much effort in school or jobs.

could this not as equally apply to INTj's, due to the Se polr?

No INTJ have IJ temperament which has more willpower, and stamina (if I'm correct)

INTPs have IP temperament. Which makes them pretty inert.

[Gilly]

It's more related to Se, IMO.

[XoX]

INTps and INTjs both have very low Se but ILIs react better to "pushing" (it generally activates them). INTjs have a veeeery bad reaction when someone tries to push them to do things. Perhaps this might help in deciding between those types.

[strrrng]

INTps and INTjs both have very low Se but ILIs react better to "pushing" (it generally activates them). INTjs have a veeeery bad reaction when someone tries to push them to do things. Perhaps this might help in deciding between those types.

interesting. Throughout my life, I have always been motivated to do shit by Se's. My youth basketball coach was the only one I would obey. It also seemed I would always skate by or do nothing until absolutely necessary, or until I was "shocked" into action. I guess this would suggest INTp...

[strrrng]

Introverted intuition is generally associated with the ability to recognize the unfolding of processes over time (how one event leads to another), have visions of the past and future, develop mental imagery, and see intangible hints of relationships between processes or objects.

I just found this interesting because I have noted in my thinking processes how I will be analyzing something and then suddenly I will have this paradoxical insight that solves whatever the problem was.

[bibliophile8]

Introverted intuition is generally associated with the ability to recognize the unfolding of processes over time (how one event leads to another), have visions of the past and future, develop mental imagery, and see intangible hints of relationships between processes or objects.

I just found this interesting because I have noted in my thinking processes how I will be analyzing something and then suddenly I will have this paradoxical insight that solves whatever the problem was.

What you just described sounds more LII, if I'm not mistaken. Anyone (dis)agree?

If you're ILI, that's fine, too.

One big difference between LIIs and ILIs is that LIIs will change the means, but not the goal and ILIs will change the goal but not the means. Which I guess is basically p/j differences. An ILI I know seems overly concerned about the future and practical planning from my LII perspective. I think thats the farsighted/carefree dichotomy at work.

[strrrng]

What you just described sounds more LII, if I'm not mistaken. Anyone (dis)agree?

oh. I guess. I thought that Ni was associated with the 'aha' insights via looking at the paradox.

but I guess Ne could just as easily achieve that type of insight just due to noticing a pattern, etc.

[bibliophile8]

but is an INTj typically intellectually lazy within his system/s of interest?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I feel offended, but I have a feeling you're right.

[strrrng]

Ok, I'm trying to clear up this Se thing. The reason why I always responded to the direct, no bullshit type of people was because I was too hard-headed and arrogant to respect anyone else. I generally do whatever I want. for example, my parents made a list of chores for me to do. I figured this was a bullshit impedement on my life and was pointless, so I didn't do them. My mom will say I 'have' to perform well in school while I laugh mockingly and try to explain how no human has to do anything they don't want to.

[strrrng]

that may be Fi functionally-bloced as your "hidden agenda" (6th function)

how so?

thanks for the link

[reyn_til_runa]

but is an INTj typically intellectually lazy within his system/s of interest?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I feel offended, but I have a feeling you're right.

much like most other trade-offs of strength and weakness in socionics, what i meant has both pros and cons for the INTj.

i was agreeing in part with Gilly, that because of weak Se, INTj do have less of what Jarno said: "willpower, and stamina."

but i think that applies more so in the physical world than in the mental. Ti as a first function should be very mentally active, in the sense of tolerating long sessions of rigorous thought.

thinking is the second function in INTp. the INTp spends less time thinking rigorously than "Ni-ing" about what it has thought (and whatever else.)

this sounds accurate to me. tell me if this example suits what you are saying. i had a history class in college for which the final exam assigned by the prof was a series of essay questions. i thought that seemed boring and required too much bookish thought and also did not seem like the type of thing i wanted to spend my time on. since i knew i intuitively understood all the information presented in the class and could easily memorize some key terms in order to do well, i decided to write a play incorporating all the information i thought was important to show the prof that i actually understood the information. i lucked out (considering i didn't get it approved by him first seeing that i did it the night before) and he gave me an A+. i am not sure if an LII would do something like this?

[Phaedrus]

a good example of alpha NT sci-fi might be Carl Sagan's contact or Spielberg's ET which take place in present times and focus more on a scientific discovery's personal effects on Fe (+ Si too perhaps). and much less on plausible Te technological developments leading to it. more to your point, i think INTj's are more likely to keep their (serious) Ti and (less serious) Ni (+ Fe) separate.

Carl Sagan's works are very Te, I think. He was most likely an ENTj.

[munenori2]

since i knew i intuitively understood all the information presented in the class and could easily memorize some key terms in order to do well, i decided to write a play incorporating all the information i thought was important to show the prof that i actually understood the information. i lucked out (considering i didn't get it approved by him first seeing that i did it the night before) and he gave me an A+.

Just did that same thing for a paper a few days ago. Here's hoping my prof doesn't reject mine outright. I think he's an INTj.

[Warlord]

"INTp's liking pushing" is totally wrong interpretation of the dual seeking function. Neither INTp's or INTj's want to be pushed. INTj's hate pushing out of general principle. INTp's don't and might value people who are pushy, but INTp's still don't want to be the ones who are being pushed.

INTp's dual seeking function rather seeks people who actively do stuff (especially for the INTp, and so the INTp doesn't have to do it themselves), not people who try to make the INTp do stuff. That's why dual relationships are considered to make life "too easy".

Some people have read somewhere, something like "all INTp needs is a little push". And then wonder why it never works in practice, of course it doesn't. Great example is Liveandletlive trying to get his INTp friend join this board. She probably wouldn't even try that, if she had not read somewhere, that is what ESFp's are "supposed" to do to INTp's. That will never work, INTp's are more likely rebel against being pushed, and do the exact opposite what the other person wants them to do. Mostly just to show that s(he) can't be pushed. If the rebelling in the situation was really stupid, only then the INTp would grudginly do whatever (s)he's pushed to do.

Ultimately INTp will learn to be more active from their dual. But that's if they respect them, and want to become more like them. And also INTp's become more active by "tagging along" with their dual.

[strrrng]

this sounds accurate to me. tell me if this example suits what you are saying. i had a history class in college for which the final exam assigned by the prof was a series of essay questions. i thought that seemed boring and required too much bookish thought and also did not seem like the type of thing i wanted to spend my time on. since i knew i intuitively understood all the information presented in the class and could easily memorize some key terms in order to do well, i decided to write a play incorporating all the information i thought was important to show the prof that i actually understood the information. i lucked out (considering i didn't get it approved by him first seeing that i did it the night before) and he gave me an A+. i am not sure if an LII would do something like this?

yeah, that seems like something I would do. the bolded part was the most accurate; that is how I view most school assignments, and, like you said, I'll understand things intuitively, just not care to do it because it isn't worth it, and I make sure I come up with a strong definition of cost/benefit, values, etc., so that I can rationalize my actions. except when my parents tell me I'm rationalizing, I reply by stating that what they're promoting is simply something they think they should, and that what's important is the person's internal beliefs, not just doing some shit to do it. was your prof. NT? I would think them the most apt to approve of such things; I know I would. It shows more understanding and, to some degree, intelligence than other things.

[bibliophile8]

but the INTj's mood itself very much does get emotionally-manipulated through Fe dual-seeking.

I had a girlfriend, probably an NF, who was very good at manipulating people's feelings. And one time I could tell she was doing it to me, it made me feel betrayed and angry at her. Maybe that was just an isolated case, I don't know. I may have been unconscious of most of the other times.

[FDG]

Beta's been said to be composed by people that react with Fe+ to Se- (static extraverted negativist and introverted positivist that are the engagers), so without the presence of Se- their Fe+ will generally appear to be forced. That is also why groups composed only by Beta NFs are though about as being excessively "dramatic". The presence of the statics don't calm down the dynamics but provide and input for the "drama" to be executed without looking stupid. Notice how for example ENFjs are said to need to burst out their emotions even via laughter in order not to explode. In absence of something capable of creating an atmosphere of "bursting" they might just look manipulative.

Anyway, just random thoughts without a real order.

[bibliophile8]

"manipulation" was an unfortunate word choice on my part because it often has negative connotations of some sinister end.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=LII]Super-Id[/url] block
5. Extroverted ethics
The LII is among the most stoic of types, but appreciates emotional effusiveness in others. Something as simple as a big smile and a hug is enough to brighten an LII's day. Without constant positive emotional input, he begins to doubt that he is appreciated and fall into depression.

if someone misuses the dual-seeking function to an end less beneficial, that might prompt a very negative reaction. this might be prone to happening, or be percieved as happening, between INTj's and say beta NF's because they share different values (ends.)

particularly, beta NF Fe is often related to seeking Extroverted Sensing, which the INTj does not seek much at all, it being his POLR function (place of least resistance).

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. She didn't seem to be good at picking up on internal feelings that weren't externally visible, either. I should probably read some beta type descriptions.

[Warlord]

for comparison, INTj/ESFj dual-seeking: the INTj isn't going to seek people who make the INTj themself emotionally manipulate the mood. but the INTj's mood itself very much does get emotionally-manipulated through Fe dual-seeking. they don't just sit there in their own heads all the time while the ESFj manipulates everyone else's mood instead. (although that happens some of the time perhaps.)

Your analogy doesn't work correctly. ESFp's makes things happen in INTp physical surroundings, ESFj's makes things happen inside INTj's head (or heart lol). The same thing works in reverse, but then it's ESFj's , and ESFp's . When the analogy is applied correctly it's the same exact thing I said earlier.

That's why dual relationships are considered to make life "too easy".

psychologically yeah, they're considered complements. but the means in the world to that psychological end may not be considered "easy" as such, depending on the dual pair. that sense of the word is in much of the literature considered moreof an Si/Ne thing. (what type was that video you recently posted again? )

What you said really doesn't make much sense. What people find easy, is what they are good at.

You mean Beck's "Loser"? How that supposedly represents stereotypical thing. There was no relaxing or "extreme" activity that you would expect from a stereotypical representation of . What types stereotypical physical behaviour Beck had then in that video, that was supposedly more like that of INTp's: ISTp, ESTj, ENTp, INTj, ISFp, ESFj, ENFp, or INFj?

Whether the video is interpreted as or , depends on if you see symbolism in it.

edit: Or was it the video with Stone Cold and the beer truck?

Some people have read somewhere, something like "all INTp needs is a little push". And then wonder why it never works in practice, of course it doesn't. Great example is Liveandletlive trying to get his INTp friend join this board. She probably wouldn't even try that, if she had not read somewhere, that is what ESFp's are "supposed" to do to INTp's. That will never work,

citing one case is a far cry from "never". it's also a unique case i think, because it impinges on the INTp's own ego bloc. (e.g. socionics and how he should go about it is probably more Ni+Te than Se+Fi.) and regardless of what you're claiming here, of course there are going to be limits to what dual-seeking does.

Citing infinite amount of examples takes infinite time to write and infinite time to read. It was:"wonder why it never works", it had peoples impression contained in there, it wasn't a universal true or false statement.

ESTp's aren't INTp's duals. + is more about motivating and pulling people closer, not about commanding orders to other people. makes ESFp's not want to keep on pushing people, who don't want to pushed.

INTp's are more likely rebel against being pushed, and do the exact opposite what the other person wants them to do. Mostly just to show that s(he) can't be pushed. If the rebelling in the situation was really stupid, only then the INTp would grudginly do whatever (s)he's pushed to do.

that's actually quite reminiscent of a popular type description (on socioniko.) the problem is, it isn't an INTp description. it's the ESFp one.

In some things duals aren't that different :wink:

Ultimately INTp will learn to be more active from their dual. But that's if they respect them, and want to become more like them. And also INTp's become more active by "tagging along" with their dual.

i agree this can all be an important part of it. but i'm less sure it's the entire picture.

Certainly that isn't the entire picture. But you have remember that ESFp's are + .

[Warlord]

What you said really doesn't make much sense. What people find easy, is what they are good at.

consider: judicious/resolute, romantic attitudes. yes strong functions should proceed "easily" in the sense of high ability and confidence. but certain dual pairs may trek a tougher path than others whose life difficulties manifest in other ways amid an otherwise more comfortable pace.

How does that connect to the issue at hand? Are you trying to say that / types dual relationships "trek an easier path"? Based on what?

You mean Beck's "Loser"? How that supposedly represents stereotypical thing. There was no relaxing or "extreme" activity that you would expect from a stereotypical representation of . What types stereotypical physical behaviour Beck had then in that video, that was supposedly more like that of INTp's: ISTp, ESTj, ENTp, INTj, ISFp, ESFj, ENFp, or INFj?

Whether the video is interpreted as or , depends on if you see symbolism in it.

edit: Or was it the video with Stone Cold and the beer truck?

Beck. but i never said it was 'stereotypical" anything. i just meant to point out the dispute over some of your conceptions of INTp's (and it wasn't even my dispute, someone else said it was ISTp.)

When he said second, are you sure he didn't mean the "ISFj-video"?

After what I said about the video, do you see any point in questioning why I picked it?

Citing infinite amount of examples takes infinite time to write and infinite time to read. It was:"wonder why it never works", it had peoples impression contained in there, it wasn't a universal true or false statement.

i never said "infinite". you did use universal statements like the one mentioned at the end of the paragraph above. and you never said you "wonder," you were commenting on how others "wonder", later saying about your own POV: "That will never work"

Wether I give one or hudred examples, it wouldn't prove anything anyway. I just gave an recent example to point it out.

lol so I exagerate too. But so far it hasn't worked, and based on induction it's going to come even less likely to happen in the future. Liveandletlive was already getting fustrated by it, that's a sign of that she is to stop trying rather than the guy will gave in. That's why she was asking advice for a new tactic.

In some things duals aren't that different :wink:

fair observations sometimes, especially when the dual isn't around. i made the observation myself in the INTp thread on Steven J. Gould. but the problem is the socioniko descriptions go on to further say that the ESFp acts that way towards the INTp dual too (in both descriptions of the pair no less.) the wiki links on gamma irrational functional blocing speak similarly.

What is the latter part about? ESFp's being rebellious?

[Warlord]

the path may not be easier overall necessarily because the pros and cons of life come in many differnt forms. but it is quite common to associate Ni + Se with a "readied" state of "mobilization" instead of a "comfortable" or "convenient" one.

haven't you read?: http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8991

You are now talking something to do with relaxation. That's not what's meant when dualism is said to be "too easy".

The article wasn't about dualism, it was about Reinin groups.

admittedly, that is quite possible. i was reading the post as the "second [INTp] video" due to the timing of the post. you could ask discojoe for clarrification. in any case, i will retract the point. but replace it by noting the dispute voiced over your so-called ISTp video. (Si vs. Se base.) if you are mistaking Si base for Se base, that could have consequences for your understanding of ESFp duality.

A "dispute" raised by Captain Autism. Get real lol.

People can look at different things in those videos.

as you may remember Joy (who is thought of by many as ENTj) questioned your gamma values quite a bit in the past.

...and got annihilated Also Joy being ENTj has been questioned. Maybe you should concentrate on how those disputes end, instead of them being rised. And she was claiming that I have too much , wich is Gamma value. Actually I think the same exact way about Joy, I think she has quite much let's say compared to Salawa.

lol so I exagerate too.

if you are gamma NT, you might want to fix that.

Are you now claiming that gamma NT's never exagerate. And that INTp's are never utterly pessimistic that something won't work? lol

But so far it hasn't worked, and based on induction it's going to come even less likely to happen in the future. Liveandletlive was already getting fustrated by it, that's a sign of that she is to stop trying rather than the guy will gave in. That's why she was asking advice for a new tactic.

check the thread again.

Well I'll be damned. Maybe the new tactics worked

But did he seem happy about it? Like they two were getting closer, instead of being pushed apart?

fair observations sometimes, especially when the dual isn't around. i made the observation myself in the INTp thread on Steven J. Gould. but the problem is the socioniko descriptions go on to further say that the ESFp acts that way towards the INTp dual too (in both descriptions of the pair no less.) the wiki links on gamma irrational functional blocing speak similarly.

What is the latter part about? ESFp's being rebellious?

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...14094&start=30

That didn't really help. What part of that thread are you trying to point at?

[Warlord]

You are now talking something to with relaxation. That's not what's meant when dualism is said to be "too easy".

"doesn't have to do stuff themselves" doesn't sound very "readied".

Firstly according to Lytov, the Reining dichotomies are in question by the russians, and were sort of dismissed at some point.

And that doesn't exclude being "readied" to something else.

The article wasn't about dualism, it was about Reinin groups.

3rd reinin tier (or that part of it) corresponds to quadra values.

Wich aren't descriptions of dualisms between different type-pairs.

A "dispute" raised by Captain Autism. Get real lol.

he's an odd one, but his understanding of classical socionics isn't really what's disputed.

Sure it has been, and clearly should be.

and if you want to really "get real" maybe you could try supporting something with an external source? (type descriptions, etc.)

Supporting what? That INTp's have and in their Super-ID block?

People can look at different things in those videos.

that was the point of bringing them up. not all unlike real life application.

You aren't making much sense with your latter sentence. What's your point?

Also Joy being ENTj has been questioned. And she was claiming that I have too much Se, wich is Gamma value. Actually I think the same exact way about Joy, I think she has quite much Se let's say compared to Salawa.

"the type of agression"... it didn't sound just like a complaint of quantity, but perhaps of quadra values.

Or just pointless comment.

...and got annihilated [...] Maybe you should concentrate on how those disputes end, instead of them being rised.

anihilated? not really. you attributed her complaint to random chance. granted, she didn't "anihilate" you either, but that's not the point. initial impressions do often have some value. the point just was that once more you aren't unquestionably the very type your making universal statements about.

Not when done over web about some totally inrelevant things, and when dismissing what's relevant, like the style and content how I write. To anyone who has a half-a-brain it should be obvious that my explanation totally nullified her point. I think I know best what I was thinking when I picked those. And btw. my explanation of the situation was a clear cut example of . Also my writing doesn't display real at all, it was then about stereotypical outer-charasteristics attributed to , not even written by me. Also she raised the point over some other issue, she just didn't want to say what it was, although I can guess what it was

Consider also what ezra (or was it ezra) said there.

You are the one even according to your own words, that has problems telling from .

Are you now claiming that gamma NT's never exagerate

i never said never. it is a matter of degree and yours in that post was breaking the thermometer.

Breaking the thermometer with one comment? What thermometer? Gamma NT's aren't necessarily very accurate about the correct structure and meaning of their thoughts, that's . It's what it's meant to mean, what counts. Sometimes I carefully craft what I say so it means exactly what I'm saying, and even so that it contains "code words" or "symbolic keys" that are supposed to open the reader to new thoughts that connect to the code words. And sometimes I just say something that's just vaguely there. Depends on the context and importance. Bummer for them who can't take in account the context and what's relevant

And that INTp's are never utterly pessimistic that something won't work? lol

INTp pessimism often relates to a Ni forcast of what will develop from the facts, not a gross misrpresentation of the facts themselves.

What "gross misrpresentation" of facts? Do you even know what that means in practice? At that moment it was the correct interpretation from the facts available. I already explained why.

That didn't really help. What part of that thread are you trying to point at?

adaptation, concession, etc.

I don't still get what's your point. You are sort of just unloading information and code words on me. Unless you are just trying to say that sometimes duals can be mixed with eachother.

[Warlord]

Firstly according to Lytov, the Reining dichotomies are in question by the russians, and were sort of dismissed at some point.

in Lytov's "Portrait of a Socionist" the reinin dichotomies overall score just short of 3 out of possible score of 5 on level of trust in the community (polled). which isn't as reliable as say what the information elements themselves scored (approx. 4) but i would not say dismissed. and the quadra values are some of the most trusted in all the reinin tiers.

Well I don't find 57% that reliable.

And that doesn't exclude being "readied" to something else.

nor does anything you've posted exclude duality.

Again you aren't makeing any sense. Where have I tried to exclude duality?

Wich aren't descriptions of dualisms between different type-pairs.

where else are the duality descriptions derived from? there are the functions, but even so the functions and the quadra values have a 1:1 relationship. and for even greater certainty, i did also link to a type description with duality excerpts.

How was the story again, how duality was first observed? There were no theory about quadras at that point.

Indeed you did, and there it states:
It awakens in The Politician the understanding that he needs to act more diplomatically, to use persuasion and not a direct attack.

Wich has been my point all along.

Sure it has been, and clearly should be.

on the wiki logged criticisms of him seem limited to nonclassical material. the classical material on his website is resemblant of Lytov's or Rick's. on this forum, he is clearly criticized for mocking autism, etc. and for his other half-baked hypothesis like the latest "moodiness" thread but when was the last time over classical material?

Writing theories like the moodiness thread, shows that he can't apply knowledge about classical material to practice that well.

Supporting what? That INTp's and in the Super-ID block?

your original post doesn't necessarily follow from that.

Sure it does, it results from correct understanding what and are, and how they work as 5th and 6th.

You aren't making much sense with your latter sentence. What's your point?

overconfidence on your part in your own observations without deferring to external material.

not all unlike real life application.

Umm no you weren't talking about any external material there.

Or just pointless comment.

you haven't done much here to suggest your own post is any different.

Obviously I have.

To anyone who has a half-a-brain it should be obvious that my explanation totally nullified her point. [...] And btw. my explanation of the situation was a clear cut example of

doesn't strike me as obvious on either account. but if it is so and i am mistaken, it should be easy for you to restate your reasoning in this thread more succinctly.

Well obviously there was no reasoning, since it took the name from a music video that I was watching at the moment I was making this account. And the rest was result of series of associations/connections that I got from the name. Her point was that I selected those from some -reason. After wich a SLE said that he wouldn't never have picked the picture. So a) she guessed wrong the reason why those 3 the were selected b) she didn't know on what basis SLE's select those.

I think I know best what I was thinking when I picked those.

doesn't mean necessarily that you're best at putting it in terms of socionics.

And you certainly aren't the best at assessing how well they are put in terms of socionics.

Also she raised the point over some other issue, she just didn't want to say what it was, although I can guess what it was

Consider also what ezra (or was it ezra) said there.

she raises the point before Ezra even posted.

Naturally since Ezra replied to her, duh!

You are the one even according to your own words, that has problems telling from

have i made any questionable claims about Te or Ti without trying to back them up?

You can't even assess in what block you have them yourself, how could you assess it in others. You are the person you know best.

Breaking the thermometer with one comment? What thermometer? [...] What "gross misrpresentation" of facts? Do you even know what that means in practice? At that moment it was the correct interpretation from the facts available. I already explained why.

bullshit. you put words down my mouth and twisted your own.

No, I gave very clear explanation. And I haven't forged your quotes

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Extroverted_logic][/url]
as a creative (2nd) function (ILI and SLI)
The individual has a preference for factual accuracy over ideological consistency

You realise that: "It's what it's meant to mean, what counts." = factual accuracy? And isn't only about ideological consistency, but also about structural consistency?

I don't still get what's your point. You are sort of just unloading information and code words on me. Unless you are just trying to say that sometimes duals can be mixed with eachother.

it seems like liveandletlive got what i was trying to say. even without pointing out the key phrases. (they're not "code words" but explicit references to part of the description.)

"i knew i always liked u ifmd! haha" = she got it? How could she gotten something you are going to say in the future, in another thread?

What I didn't get was in your original text, because of broken sentences.

[strrrng]

not to interrupt your argument, but to conclude the original question of the thread, I have realized I am in fact LII, based primarily on quadra values, with function pairs fitting into place. I reread one of my first posts on this site where I mentioned liking to theorize but not caring to apply, and also enjoying having fun and just doing what I want. it was clear I am alpha.

[aestrivex]

not to interrupt your argument, but to conclude the original question of the thread, I have realized I am in fact LII, based primarily on quadra values, with function pairs fitting into place. I reread one of my first posts on this site where I mentioned liking to theorize but not caring to apply, and also enjoying having fun and just doing what I want. it was clear I am alpha.

LOL.

[strrrng]

LOL.

what....? do you disagree?

[discojoe]

not to interrupt your argument, but to conclude the original question of the thread, I have realized I am in fact LII, based primarily on quadra values, with function pairs fitting into place. I reread one of my first posts on this site where I mentioned liking to theorize but not caring to apply, and also enjoying having fun and just doing what I want. it was clear I am alpha.

LOL.

hahahahahaha

it's funny because niffweed hardly ever types "LOL"

[Phaedrus]

not to interrupt your argument, but to conclude the original question of the thread, I have realized I am in fact LII, based primarily on quadra values, with function pairs fitting into place. I reread one of my first posts on this site where I mentioned liking to theorize but not caring to apply, and also enjoying having fun and just doing what I want. it was clear I am alpha.

That is a pretty strong argument for the claim that you are actually not an Alpha. For example, theorizing "but not caring to apply" is much more typical of ILIs than of LIIs. It is pretty clearly stated in the type descriptions that LIIs do their best to implement their models in practical ways. ILIs are the detached dreamers, not the LIIs.

[aestrivex]

LOL.

what....? do you disagree?

no. your timing was impeccable however.

[strrrng]

my timing sucks....I don't even know what you're talking about niffweed, lol......um phaedrus, I read on rick's blog that the INTp's core need is understanding underlying processes and deriving benefit, while INTj's is creating correct systems of thought. I understand ILI's are lazy dreamers, but wouldn't Te lead them to want to implement things? or would it just lead them to be more factual than ideological with their logic...

Either way, I identified much more with the IP description, so my shit isn't settled yet.

[Phaedrus]

I understand ILI's are lazy dreamers, but wouldn't Te lead them to want to implement things?

Not necessarily. Why?

or would it just lead them to be more factual than ideological with their logic...

I'm not sure what you man by that, but they would change or abandon the ideology if they find out that it is false (= does not correspond with reality). They are more prone to criticize and find logical faults in other people's theories than coming up with brand new ones of their own.

Either way, I identified much more with the IP description, so my shit isn't settled yet.

There are more than one such description. Which one did you read? Have you seen this one, for example:

3. IJ – Introverted rational (balanced-stable temperament)

Energy Exchange. They always try to conserve energy and keep it for activities that are objectively necessary. They are afraid of excess activity and non-productive exhaustion of their strength. These are the most energy-saving and sensible people. They look restrained and calm and they distance themselves from the meaningless things that happen around them. They are meticulous, and they dislike doing anything differently from the usual pattern. They are very static and inert, but also very steady and they always finish what they started. They can not adapt in rapidly changing and extreme situations. They quickly lose their working capacity and they get ill very often.

Recommended sports. Yoga and similar healing slow sports, running marathons, etc.

Emotions and behavior. At first glance, they seem to have no emotions at all because they are just so good at controlling their emotions. Actually they are just waiting for the right moment to let the emotions out to the right people. They can hold on to emotions for a very long time, which is what makes them the most likely to have accumulated stress. This means that they can get stress because they have been gathering emotions, but haven’t been expressing them. They might have random emotional outbursts. The rage of an IJ type is very scary, because he can collect insults for months or even for years. Their behavior is very consistent and predictable. Their actions don’t depend on the changes in the environment, they have their own rigid firm moral and practical norms. When there are conflicts between their norms and the reality, they get nervous and they start bottling up bad emotions. They need activities that amuse/entertain them and give them emotional and physical relaxation.


4. IP – Introverted irrational (perception-adapting temperament)

Energy exchange. Energy level is very unstable. They react to discomfort very strongly, which is why they use their energy to avoid unacceptable conditions or to create comfort. On their rare moments of activity, they become similar to the representatives of the EP temperament, but on their moments of inactivity, they seem similar to the representatives of the IJ temperament. They tend to hide from the world and cope with their personal resources, which are bigger than they might seem to others. They are not able to constantly manage with energy exchange rhythm. Their working capacity is smaller than it is for the other temperaments. They only work effectively when they are perceiving the need for it or when there are important circumstances which they can’t ignore. There is no point in pushing those people, because they will seemingly agree with the aggressor, but will find ways to evade their duties. They either can’t or won’t overwork and they don’t share other people’s enthusiasm in principle.

Recommended sports. Gracefully rhythmic sports (swimming, riding the bicycle) or sprinting (short distance), jumping, etc.

Emotions and behavior. Highly sensitive to the emotions of others. They can’t stand unstable moods or stormy emotions, which is why they avoid conflict and they try to solve misunderstandings. They don’t try to change the situation, they adapt to it by showing extraordinary ingenuity and flexibility. In relaxing, comfortable and safe situations they bloom, become good and social people. They try to be good towards their surroundings and act in a kind and caring way. They are pleasant and easygoing people in close relations and cold and distant towards all others. It’s necessary to treat them in a caring and attentive way to preserve their vulnerable emotionality and fragile nervous system.

[aestrivex]

Neodymium oxalate is mainly used for catalyst, glass, crystal and capacitors. Colours glass delicate shades ranging from pure violet through wine-red and warm gray. Light transmitted through such glass shows unusually sharp absorption bands.

[strrrng]

3. IJ – Introverted rational (balanced-stable temperament)

Energy Exchange. They always try to conserve energy and keep it for activities that are objectively necessary. They are afraid of excess activity and non-productive exhaustion of their strength. These are the most energy-saving and sensible people. They look restrained and calm and they distance themselves from the meaningless things that happen around them. They are meticulous, and they dislike doing anything differently from the usual pattern. They are very static and inert, but also very steady and they always finish what they started. They can not adapt in rapidly changing and extreme situations. They quickly lose their working capacity and they get ill very often.

Recommended sports. Yoga and similar healing slow sports, running marathons, etc.

Emotions and behavior. At first glance, they seem to have no emotions at all because they are just so good at controlling their emotions. Actually they are just waiting for the right moment to let the emotions out to the right people. They can hold on to emotions for a very long time, which is what makes them the most likely to have accumulated stress. This means that they can get stress because they have been gathering emotions, but haven’t been expressing them. They might have random emotional outbursts. The rage of an IJ type is very scary, because he can collect insults for months or even for years. Their behavior is very consistent and predictable. Their actions don’t depend on the changes in the environment, they have their own rigid firm moral and practical norms. When there are conflicts between their norms and the reality, they get nervous and they start bottling up bad emotions. They need activities that amuse/entertain them and give them emotional and physical relaxation.
identify with nothing from this

4. IP – Introverted irrational (perception-adapting temperament)

Energy exchange. Energy level is very unstable. They react to discomfort very strongly, which is why they use their energy to avoid unacceptable conditions or to create comfort. On their rare moments of activity, they become similar to the representatives of the EP temperament, but on their moments of inactivity, they seem similar to the representatives of the IJ temperament. They tend to hide from the world and cope with their personal resources, which are bigger than they might seem to others. They are not able to constantly manage with energy exchange rhythm. Their working capacity is smaller than it is for the other temperaments. They only work effectively when they are perceiving the need for it or when there are important circumstances which they can’t ignore. There is no point in pushing those people, because they will seemingly agree with the aggressor, but will find ways to evade their duties. They either can’t or won’t overwork and they don’t share other people’s enthusiasm in principle.

Recommended sports. Gracefully rhythmic sports (swimming, riding the bicycle) or sprinting (short distance), jumping, etc.

Emotions and behavior. Highly sensitive to the emotions of others. They can’t stand unstable moods or stormy emotions, which is why they avoid conflict and they try to solve misunderstandings. They don’t try to change the situation, they adapt to it by showing extraordinary ingenuity and flexibility. In relaxing, comfortable and safe situations they bloom, become good and social people. They try to be good towards their surroundings and act in a kind and caring way. They are pleasant and easygoing people in close relations and cold and distant towards all others. It’s necessary to treat them in a caring and attentive way to preserve their vulnerable emotionality and fragile nervous system.
bolded parts are what I identified with most, and the rest I generally identified with

[liveandletlive]

not to interrupt your argument, but to conclude the original question of the thread, I have realized I am in fact LII, based primarily on quadra values, with function pairs fitting into place. I reread one of my first posts on this site where I mentioned liking to theorize but not caring to apply, and also enjoying having fun and just doing what I want. it was clear I am alpha.

LOL.

He's laughing because people on this forum tend to go on tangents and the original posting of a thread will end up being something not related at all to what we were originally talking about. It was just good comedic timing on your part in the sense of the thread. It's especially funny that Niffweed is saying "LOL" as you will soon discover for yourself

[Warlord]

Well I don't find 57% that reliable.

you never addressed my point that the quadra values are some of the more accurate reinin dichotomies. even veteran users like Expat use them. around here they're frequently advocated over the jungian foundation even.

Based on what? If we take for example "democratic". You have to interpret that differently for alphas and gammas, so it even works in practice. That's not a working dichotomy. They seem more like something that needs to forcibly twist to make it work. If those were reversed, I wouldn't find it suprising that people would just twist word "aristocratic" so that it would apply to Gammas just as well. Maybe people shouldn't advocate them over jungian foundation.

How do you determine what makes a "veteran user" and what doesn't?

Again you aren't makeing any sense. Where have I tried to exclude duality?

by having the dual's Se not act on the dual-seeker.

lol no I haven't. I've even said how it acts on the dual-seeker.

How was the story again, how duality was first observed? There were no theory about quadras at that point.

that's all true to my knowledge. but my point was that within the theory as it has come to be, the quadra values are a reasonable explaination for dual-seeking behavior.

Just having the quadra-values doesn't explain much. If that was the case, also ISFj's and ENTj's would be ESFp's duals.

Indeed you did, and there it states:
It awakens in The Politician the understanding that he needs to act more diplomatically, to use persuasion and not a direct attack.

Wich has been my point all along.

i don't think you're taking that quote in context. consider:

criticizing calms him down, for him it signals that his activities did not pass unnoticed and that he must have done enough.

in relation to what i pointed out earlier, as well as:

Even when a feeling is of a passing nature, he knows very well what he desires from his lover, has no intention to adapt – only to dictate. He is arrogant, optimistic, before a complicated situation he does not go shy but tries to resolve it immediately in a few decisive moves.

sounds more "push-pull" than "[INTp] doesn't have to do stuff themselves"

And that's in context? That's not even from the part of the dualism-description that I just quoted. That part of the machine-translation is so crappy, maybe you are just interpreting it in some weird way.

Push-and-pull is entirely different concept than the one I've been talking about.

Writing theories like the moodiness thread, shows that he can't apply knowledge about classical material to practice that well.

or what Jarno said about the latest work of Gulenko (who's classical work is still respected): INTj's like making hypothesises.

Writing some pointless crap isn't making a proper hypothesis. Even hypothesises are built on solid ground. The string theory is a hypothesis.

Sure it does, it results from correct understanding what Se and Fi are, and how they work as 5th and 6th.

i don't think you've sufficiently demonstrated the intermediary steps.

Too much work. Even writing this consumes way too much of my time. How fast you can understand what I'm trying to say, depends entirely on the limitations of your understanding.

Umm no you weren't talking about any external material there.

ifmd prev[/i]]*but we had better give a better reason why than just saying it's so from personal experience. after all, one's personal experience may not even be typed right.

Obviously I have.

obvious to you.

Should be obvious to everyone. To people who it isn't obvious, maybe just shouldn't comment on it. And just take it or leave it.

Well obviously there was no reasoning

i meant the reasoning for having said you "nullified her point" and for being "cut and dry" Ni.

After all information had been provided, there was nothing left of her point.

experience isn't something you can explain, you just have to experience it yourself. If you don't get what there was example of cut and dry , then you just don't.

since it took the name from a music video that I was watching at the moment I was making this account. And the rest was result of series of associations/connections that I got from the name.

not all "associations/connections" are Ni though, let alone Ni bloced with Te in the ego bloc.

This one was.

After wich a SLE said that he wouldn't never have picked the picture. So a) she guessed wrong the reason why those 3 the were selected b) she didn't know on what basis SLE's select those.

ESTp isn't the only plausibile alternative though. it could be that you still seek Se, although not gamma Se. it could be Se as an id function.

People who have in their id block, aren't seeking.

Her point was that I selected those from some Se-reason.

i thought her point about Gamma Fi was more interesting.

That was even more stupid. INTp's have HA, and I rated even lower.

so then it's not anything you can demonstrate explicitly. so then you're pulling this out of your ass: "Also she raised the point over some other issue, she just didn't want to say what it was" this emotional analysis does not sound like Ni bloced with Te btw.

That's not a emotional "analysis". I asked or hinted her about it, she didn't respond = she didn't want to say what it was. If I had the tendency to make emotional "analysises", don't you think I would avoid writing something in sig, that could potentially upset other people. I didn't even consider that as a possibility. Since you read the thread. You missed something totally obvious and relevant, like that I despise all emotionality. And instead you pick there something that couldn't be any more pointless and far-fetching.

You can't even assess in what block you have them yourself, how could you assess it in others. You are the person you know best.

some people type by more external behaviors. and it is different, how one can observe there own behaviors versus observing someone else's. compounding this is that functional preference is a relative measure (since most people probably use some of every function.)

That's just bullcrap. People who haven't been able type themselves are always also the ones that make the crappiest typings.

You can't type yourself. Even less you can find out what's relevant about other peoples external behaviour.

No, I gave very clear explanation. And I haven't forged your quotes

you grossly mispresented the degree of what i was saying and even some of what you had said too. the only explaination i can see was "lol so I exagerate."

"Half" of what you say, just comes out so messy, so that's probably why I misintrepret you.

The point was don't take every word I said literally, concentrate on what's the meaning behind the words.

You realise that: "It's what it's meant to mean, what counts." = factual accuracy? And Ti isn't only about ideological consistency, but also about structural consistency?

the point is that in the incident above you didn't state things face-value when they clearly could have been. maybe you had better do less "carefully crafting" and more checking the facts.

"Being factual" isn't about writing literal facts especially trivia facts. That's more of a sign of . By that I mean, the person probably has as 7th or 8th function.

Maybe I just don't give a shit if everyone understands everything I say.

There's never been any problem with my facts. You haven't actually pointed out any incident, where anything factual I have said has been wrong. You just take information too literally, and miss what's actually meant.

[strrrng]

Phaedrus.....from socionics.us.....

blocked with :
Types from the Alpha Quadra enjoy freely exchanging new ideas and theories as a form of intellectual leisure. They like to systematize knowledge and create new categories and speculative hypotheses without necessarily intending to see their theories tested or implemented (subdued ).

this is what I argued before, but you said the ILI was like this......

blocked with :
This quadra believes that ideas and fortuitous events should be turned into something profitable and marketable

just saying.....