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Thread: Visual Identification from ancient statues

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    Default Visual Identification from ancient statues

    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=299050

    Warlord suggested that it could actually be useful to use VI in statues, since perhaps the sculptor tried to catch a particular "vibe" of the person that may be an accurate representation of the subject's personality.

    Ok then, for fun, assume that the following statues of ancient Romans are pictures and tell me what type they would be.


    1












    2











    3








    The same guy, as a young man




    4











    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    1. ISFj
    2. ENTp
    3. INFp
    4. ISTp

    I have no idea... just guesstimates
    ESFp-Fi sub
    6w7 sx/so/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    2. ENTp
    Don't you think he looks fierce, aggressive, a guy you wouldn't want to mess around with?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    2. ENTp
    Don't you think he looks fierce, aggressive, a guy you wouldn't want to mess around with?
    You're right... i think i was just looking at his pensive look. Kinda had that whole philosopher's forehead/look like an INTj... so what r u thinking?
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    1. INFj
    2. ISTj
    3. ESFp?
    4. ISFj

    I dunno.
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    1.istj
    2.estp
    3. ???
    4.entj

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    Default Re: Visual Identification from ancient statues

    1. INFj
    2. ESTp
    3. ENFp
    4. ISTj
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    I'm guessing from the style that all of these are from the late Greek through the Roman Empire era, correct? If so, these statues are more likely than many to be accurate, since not only would the artist of that period seek to capture certain essences but put in a great deal of realism as well.

    My initial impressions:

    1. The thoughtful, bookish sort. He might be the kind to have his own unique temper tantrums, though.

    2. Frightening in a way. Looks like he could be forceful and gruff, perhaps even cruel, though in a straightforward type of way. Perhaps more intelligent than he looks. (Is that the same statue in all of the pictures?)

    3. The beard makes him look scholarly, so that's a little confusing. His face is placid in all of them, which makes him the hardest of the four to get a grasp on. So, either detachment or thoughtfulness is my best guess.

    4. A grim sort of practicality. He might have had funny (as in strange) ideas, too.


    I should add that I really have no idea who any of these are. I have a feeling I should, because a couple of them look familiar, but my memory fails me.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Yay, you did impressions, too.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    1.) Rational, probably logical, probably intuitive
    2.) SLE
    3.) ethical and irrational
    4.) IJ... LSI or LII
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Yay, you did impressions, too.
    Lol. I think we were typing at the same time, because your post wasn't there when I started! I thought it was funny when I submitted my post, and you had taken the same kind of approach!
    Yes, and I like seeing your view of them that way. It's interesting how close we are on parts but seem to emphasize a few different qualities. Like with 2, I think he'd likely be the most trustworthy guy of them all, not necessarily in terms of character, but in terms of predictability, because he looks straightforward. So, in that sense, I could get along with him, too. But I'm not convinced I'd enjoy being around him all the time.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    1. ESFp
    2. ESTp
    3. ISFp
    4. ENTj
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    This is interesting, although they're quite hard to type.

    After having read about Augustus, I'd say LSI is actually very likely.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Which one is Augustus again?
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    A few more of each --












    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Yay, you did impressions, too.
    Lol. I think we were typing at the same time, because your post wasn't there when I started! I thought it was funny when I submitted my post, and you had taken the same kind of approach!
    Yes, and I like seeing your view of them that way. It's interesting how close we are on parts but seem to emphasize a few different qualities. Like with 2, I think he'd likely be the most trustworthy guy of them all, not necessarily in terms of character, but in terms of predictability, because he looks straightforward. So, in that sense, I could get along with him, too.
    He does look straightforward, and I like both him and 1. I wouldn't turn my back on 3, and 4 would probably not like me. He would act as though I was insignificant and try to ignore me.
    Interesting. One I'd probably get along with. Two... I don't know, I don't see us as having long in depth conversations or anything... not sure how tolerable I'd find him. Three I think I would have a distant respect for, but I don't think we could be close. Four I would probably get along with, but not as well as one.
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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    He does look straightforward, and I like both him and 1. I wouldn't turn my back on 3, and 4 would probably not like me. He would act as though I was insignificant and try to ignore me.
    Yes, both 2 and 4 have a sort of harshness about them, but 2 looks more blunt and 4 looks sharper, if that makes any sense.

    Also, 2 looks like he goes out to attack his problems, while 4 looks a little more like he lets them come to him. And 4 looks more of a thinker, like he'd plan out things in advance and probably in detail, preparing for contingencies.. In that last picture he looks more sad and put-upon.

    3 is so blank that it's hard to say anything. I guess you could take that for being sneaky. Or just a lack of connectedness to the world. It could go either positively or negatively. Personally, he looks a little sickly.

    1 is probably the one I'd feel closest to in terms of personality. I don't know who he is, though, so I can't really say if he'd be good or bad. He does seem the gentlest, though, and compared to 3 the more reliable.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    This is very interesting, and not at all easy I'm changing my previous guess for #3 to ENTp
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    1. A weird (introverted) intuitive person... he's not really displaying any emotion, but I think he's ethical... I could see IEI, EII, or maybe EIE-Ni.
    2. SLE
    3. ILE
    4. Perhaps ESE-Si... or ESI. (Sj... that look on his face in the last picture in Expat's first post is what made me think ethical>logical)

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    expat- what do u think they are based on your research?
    ESFp-Fi sub
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    these statues are fascinating so here are my wild guesses:

    1) INFj
    2) ESTp
    3) my favourite! has an almost unworldly look about him.... ENTp?
    4) looks like my dad... who I cannot type at all INTp?... no idea

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    Aye I am really struggling with # 3 too. I get the feeling if that one is bad he'd be a real snake. # 2 is easiest by far.
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I'm guessing from the style that all of these are from the late Greek through the Roman Empire era, correct? If so, these statues are more likely than many to be accurate, since not only would the artist of that period seek to capture certain essences but put in a great deal of realism as well.
    Correct -- and although these statues might also have "propaganda" purposes, they would still have to be very easily recognizable by those who knew the person.


    I'm putting together Minde's, Diana's, and Joy's impressions together:


    On 1:


    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    1. The thoughtful, bookish sort. He might be the kind to have his own unique temper tantrums, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    1) Seems young - looks like he's trying to keep from getting in over his head, and succeeding and holding his own finally in the last one
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    , and I like both him and 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Interesting. One I'd probably get along with
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    1.) Rational, probably logical, probably intuitive
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    1 is probably the one I'd feel closest to in terms of personality. I don't know who he is, though, so I can't really say if he'd be good or bad. He does seem the gentlest, though, and compared to 3 the more reliable.

    1 is Rome's first emperor, Augustus, a.k.a. Octavian, whom I have typed as LIE. So Joy got it right. They are surely a very accurate representation of what he looked like (why else would they have flop ears?) but they were also heavily emphasizing . In his youth he was so ruthless that he was called by some, "adulescentulus carnifex" - the teenage butcher. But he calmed down especially after marrying his ESI wife, Livia, and became the great exemplar for all later emperors. The statues were probably also meant to "soften" the early image. The very first statue was found in the ruins of Livia's villa, so presumably either it's very accurate or she liked it for some other reason.

    I suspect that what you're all seeing and liking is the rationality, Fi, and the not so high Se (except in the third statue, as Diana noted -- that may be the most accurate of all). That is also why some said INFj.

    His regime heavily enhanced Rome's Gamma culture, over more than 40 years.


    On 2.

    Many said SLE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    2.) SLE
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    2. Frightening in a way. Looks like he could be forceful and gruff, perhaps even cruel, though in a straightforward type of way. Perhaps more intelligent than he looks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    2) Looks like a good guy - yes even when "mean" looking, lol. I think I would get along with this one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Like with 2, I think he'd likely be the most trustworthy guy of them all, not necessarily in terms of character, but in terms of predictability, because he looks straightforward. So, in that sense, I could get along with him, too. But I'm not convinced I'd enjoy being around him all the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    He does look straightforward, and I like both him and 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I don't know, I don't see us as having long in depth conversations or anything... not sure how tolerable I'd find him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Yes, both 2 and 4 have a sort of harshness about them, but 2 looks more blunt and 4 looks sharper, if that makes any sense.

    Also, 2 looks like he goes out to attack his problems
    2 is the emperor Caracalla, some 200 years after Augustus. I have typed him as SLE, as most people agreed. Minde was put off by the Se impression, which did not seem to put Diana off at all, and perhaps made Joy uncertain. I think that the reason why Diana and Minde both found him trustworthy is that the statue downplays any attempt at Fe - he's shown as "mean" and decisive, no attempt at being friendly.

    The real guy was approachable and even good-humoured in relation to ordinary citizens and soldiers, especially when acting as a judge, but cruel and ruthless and scheming with those who crossed, or might cross, him. Had his own brother and co-emperor murdered. He spent most of his 6-year reign on military campaigns. Murdered while taking a crap in a bush.

    It is probably true that you usually knew where you stood with him.

    On 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    3.) ethical and irrational
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    3. The beard makes him look scholarly, so that's a little confusing. His face is placid in all of them, which makes him the hardest of the four to get a grasp on. So, either detachment or thoughtfulness is my best guess
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    3) Looks so blank. No expression. For some reason I don't like him. Looks - tricky, or like a liar
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I wouldn't turn my back on 3


    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Three I think I would have a distant respect for, but I don't think we could be close.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    3 is so blank that it's hard to say anything. I guess you could take that for being sneaky. Or just a lack of connectedness to the world. It could go either positively or negatively. Personally, he looks a little sickly
    .

    Remarkable.

    3 is the emperor Marcus Aurelius, some 30 years before Caracalla; I have typed Marcus as EII. There was actually nothing sneaky or tricky about him.

    I suspect that what Diana was sensing was an impression of strong intuition, what Minde saw as "lack of connectedness to the world" and "detachment" - perhaps it reminded her of some Ne types she's met? Minde with her Si HA also noted the "sickly" thing - which he was.

    It seems that what all of you saw was very strong intuition, and reacted accordingly (although Joy - the only logical among you - was the only one to spot the "ethical".).


    On 4.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    4.) IJ... LSI or LII
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    4. A grim sort of practicality. He might have had funny (as in strange) ideas, too
    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    4) Yuck. Don't like this one either. He thinks verrry highly of himself
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    4 would probably not like me. He would act as though I was insignificant and try to ignore me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Four I would probably get along with, but not as well as one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Yes, both 2 and 4 have a sort of harshness about them, but 2 looks more blunt and 4 looks sharper, if that makes any sense.

    Also, 2 looks like he goes out to attack his problems, while 4 looks a little more like he lets them come to him. And 4 looks more of a thinker, like he'd plan out things in advance and probably in detail, preparing for contingencies.. In that last picture he looks more sad and put-upon.

    4 is the emperor Trajan, halfway between Augustus and Caracalla. I have typed him as EIE. Of the Enneagram 3 "achiever" sort.

    Minde's comments are remarkable -- she grouped together the two Betas, Trajan and Caracalla, as "harsh", but with the SLE "blunt" and the EIE "sharper"; also that the SLE "goes out to attack his problems" and the EIE "lets them come to him".

    Joy seems to have noticed mainly the rationality, but something put her off -- perhaps the slight taste of Beta Fe.

    Diana thought that he "thinks too highly of himself" . Trajan's regime emphasized that he was Optimus Princeps - the best man for the job, an opinion actually shared by many at the time. He took the Roman Empire to its maximum territorial expansion, in wars whose strategic wisdom has been questioned, then and now, conquering today's Romania and Iraq.

    Interesting that the only one you all liked "without reservations" is the LIE Augustus; you also liked the SLE Caracalla, while perhaps a bit wary. You didn't know what to make of the EII Marcus Aurelius, except Diana who found him "tricky". And I think you all got precisely the "right" reaction from the EIE Trajan.

    Trajan's era was another period of national revival; but his regime was very Gamma, even though I do think that he himself was Beta.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Visual Identification from ancient statues

    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont
    Aye I am really struggling with # 3 too. I get the feeling if that one is bad he'd be a real snake. # 2 is easiest by far.
    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere
    3) my favourite! has an almost unworldly look about him.... ENTp?
    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2
    3. ENFp
    Almost everybody thought Marcus was a Ne type; that's what put Diana off. Coincidence? I don't think so.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Visual Identification from ancient statues

    Funnily I thought 1 was ENFj and 4 was ENTj. I guess I associated the critical face of 4 to Te. The SLE was easiest because he is such a box head like all ESTps, heh.

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    What about this guy? He's no emperor, by the way.



    5







    I'm particularly interested in Diana's, Joy's and Minde's impressions
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Default Re: Visual Identification from ancient statues

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    Funnily I thought 1 was ENFj and 4 was ENTj. I guess I associated the critical face of 4 to Te. The SLE was easiest because he is such a box head like all ESTps, heh.
    ENTj is not implausible for 4.

    I think 4 has what most people associate with EJ, or at least rational, features and expression.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere
    3) my favourite! has an almost unworldly look about him.... ENTp?
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    3 is the emperor Marcus Aurelius, some 30 years before Caracalla; I have typed Marcus as EII.
    so THAT's what I liked about him!

    fascinating thread

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    EIE for 4? He seemed IJ to me... more self-contained than an EJ. Interesting. You're right though that my main focus was on rationality. I wanted to say LIE for 1, but I wasn't sure. He had such fine features. That thing he did with his eyebrows sort of made me question LIE, not sure why. For 3 I wanted to say "Delta NF", but the more I looked at it the more I saw SEI as a possibility, and something about him had an irrational feel to it. I didn't think he looked untrustworthy, but he did look... distant... somehow. When I meet people like that at professional events, I can have very interesting conversations with them, but when it's time to actually accomplish something, they're off having interesting conversations with someone else (or whatever it is that they do lol). He reminded me of the chair person of the ethics committee in an association I'm a member of.

    For some reason that 5th guy's expression made me laugh. (But it's early, so maybe that's partially to blame.) The main thing I'm seeing is weak/unvalued Se. My first thought was SLI, then ILE right afterwards, but he looks too serious (and probably introverted?). Right now SLI is my best guess. To be honest, he looks like he'd be an electrician if he were alive today, or some other similar skilled trade, and he looks like someone I'd have a hard time taking seriously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    is Rome's first emperor, Augustus, a.k.a. Octavian, whom I have typed as LIE. They are surely a very accurate representation of what he looked like (why else would they have flop ears?) but they were also heavily emphasizing . In his youth he was so ruthless that he was called by some, "adulescentulus carnifex" - the teenage butcher. But he calmed down especially after marrying his ESI wife, Livia, and became the great exemplar for all later emperors. The statues were probably also meant to "soften" the early image. The very first statue was found in the ruins of Livia's villa, so presumably either it's very accurate or she liked it for some other reason.
    Perhaps it's my inability to transcend cultural bounds, but how could somebody with a nickname "the butcher" which was earned through *actually* butchering (Not a "pet" nickname) be in a position of power? That is *precisely* the type of person that shouldn't be in any position of power. If I was someone influential in the time of Augustus, I would've probably worked really hard against him, possibly preventing his rise to power. I would've totally tried to ruin the roman empire .

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    another non-emperor - -

    6





    As an older man, same guy -- (prohably gone bald and wearing a toupee, by the way)




    This one is damaged but perhaps it gives another perspective --


    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I'm going to have to come back to that one, but for now I'll just say that in the first pic he reminds me of the professor from Back to the Future. In the second one he's got smile lines. :-)

    (It's funny how as people get older, it's easier to tell if they're a nice person or not.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    Perhaps it's my inability to transcend cultural bounds, but how could somebody with a nickname "the butcher" which was earned through *actually* butchering (Not a "pet" nickname) be in a position of power? That is *precisely* the type of person that shouldn't be in any position of power. If I was someone influential in the time of Augustus, I would've probably worked really hard against him, possibly preventing his rise to power. I would've totally tried to ruin the roman empire .
    That was in the context of avenging his murdered father and winning a civil war; he wasn't the only one doing it. The insult attached to the nickname (actually originally given to Pompey) was more the "teenage" than the "butcher".

    The question is also whom you'd have preferred to support --
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    In the younger pics, his eyes looks sort of... insane... or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    Perhaps it's my inability to transcend cultural bounds, but how could somebody with a nickname "the butcher" which was earned through *actually* butchering (Not a "pet" nickname) be in a position of power? That is *precisely* the type of person that shouldn't be in any position of power. If I was someone influential in the time of Augustus, I would've probably worked really hard against him, possibly preventing his rise to power. I would've totally tried to ruin the roman empire .
    That was in the context of avenging his murdered father and winning a civil war; he wasn't the only one doing it. The insult attached to the nickname (actually originally given to Pompey) was more the "teenage" than the "butcher".

    The question is also whom you'd have preferred to support --
    Now I'm curious, tell me the context of his nickname. It's not some "trophy" but an insult? I understood it was a "trophy" sort of thing. If you tell me the context I'll tell what I'd do . If he, for example, earned the nickname though carrying some vendetta them I wouldn't out right label him a psychopath.

    And a comment on the otehr two you posted, number 5 looks like somebody I know, just can't put my finger on it. OH!!! LSI for number 5. Just remembered.

    Number 6 looks like somebody I wouldn't like. Not sure of type, but repelling me.

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    His father was killed by a group of people in the senate, including some friends. They were trying to set up their own government and didn't want to recognize Augustus as their ruler (they disputed that he was the heir, I believe). Their killings were necessary to end the civil war and bring peace to the empire once again. They were traitors, and enemies in war... so killing them (especially in that era) didn't make Augustus evil. They were the richest and most influential people in their communities, so their deaths really stood out. I think the "teenage butcher" thing may have been more about how people were surprised that such a young person was able to do the things Augustus had done.

    (Expat can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this, I have limited knowledge on the subject.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    In the younger pics, his eyes looks sort of... insane... or something.
    Number 6 was actually regarded as extremely attractive to women when young, in a "fascinating" way.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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