For Beta: creative extremists

[UDP]

But though I was initially disappointed at being categorized as an extremist, as I continued to think about the matter I gradually gained a measure of satisfaction from the label. Was not Jesus an extremist for love: "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." Was not Amos an extremist for justice: "Let justice roll down like waters and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream." Was not Paul an extremist for the Christian gospel: "I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus." Was not Martin Luther an extremist: "Here I stand; I cannot do otherwise, so help me God." And John Bunyan: "I will stay in jail to the end of my days before I make a butchery of my conscience." And Abraham Lincoln: "This nation cannot survive half slave and half free." And Thomas Jefferson: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that an men are created equal ..." So the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. We be extremists for hate or for love? Will we be extremist for the preservation of injustice or for the extension of justice? In that dramatic scene on Calvary's hill three men were crucified. We must never forget that all three were crucified for the same crime---the crime of extremism. Two were extremists for immorality, and thus fell below their environment. The other, Jesus Christ, was an extremist for love, truth and goodness, and thereby rose above his environment. Perhaps the South, the nation and the world are in dire need of creative extremists.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles...irmingham.html

This made me think of beta quadra, in a good way.


PS: For the record, this is supposed to be a nice gesture, or at least well intentioned.
There is a great need for passion in the world, to right some wrongs. So long as it is tempered with consideration, it is a useful and productive - and necessary - item.

[Ezra]

Horrible, horrible rhetoric. Beta all round.

[UDP]

?

[UDP]

?

[Ezra]

Whoever said that I am not interested in. He uses too much of whatever it is I don't like.

[aka-kitsune]

"Creative extremist" just seems like another word for zealot. And I also don't see how all Betas are necessarily zealots. I'd never compare myself to Paul or Jesus. I might be passionate, but it's always been rather a selfish passion.

[UDP]

Whoever said that I am not interested in. He uses too much of whatever it is I don't like.

You're missing the point.

It is from MLK, . He is talking about people being complacent in times of civil injustice, (See American 1960s civil right's movement)

[misutii]

UDP I completely see what your saying and I agree. I think that the word "extremist" is being misinterpreted by others as it's acquired cannotations in recent years. In western society it has practically become a slander because our society is built upon the concept of negative liberty (which promotes social control game theory and self-interest). Postive Liberty (Idealism, revolutionary fervor, extremism) is frowned upon as it threatens the entrenched values we've become dependent on for our "freedom" and thus threatens the foundation of societal stability. Indeed it's ironic that our warped version of reality has elevated countless selfish cowards into office, we like selfish cowards because they can be bought off and controlled if they threaten to change the system. A man/woman willing to die for his/her principles/morals/the public interest is the last thing we want in office as they can't be bought off thus can't be reasoned with - we brand such people "zealots" and "extremists".

[Ezra]

Whoever said that I am not interested in. He uses too much of whatever it is I don't like.

You're missing the point.

It is from MLK, . He is talking about people being complacent in times of civil injustice, (See American 1960s civil right's movement)

Oh, ok. Well, I see no civil injustice now, so I don't relate to it. Also, just because MLK said something doesn't mean I have to be interested in it.

[lefty]

I think this thread was started to create problems and that UDP just wants his stapler back and that Loki wants to borrow it.






[web:0af7169a3e]http://staplerallineed.ytmnd.com/[/web:0af7169a3e]

[marooned]

Isn't George W. EIE? I consider him to be a "creative" extremist.

[aka-kitsune]

Isn't George W. EIE? I consider him to be a "creative" extremist.

Feh. I refuse to believe he has any iNtuition at all... ESFj if any.

[Kristiina]

The text sucks. If I knew a person like that, I'd probably make him trip "by accident". What a horribly wordy (rhetoric) person! "Oh I'd be like Jesus! Oh crucified! Oh extremist! blabla". If betas were actually like that, I'd move to delta!

If I'd type that text, I'd say that it's some extremely mentally malfunctioning Fe dominant! There are some extremely unlikely associoations there (jesus vs Thomas Jefferson, wtf?), so it feels like lack of proper Ni, but the logic of Ni is always subjective, so it could be an insane ENFj. More likely ESFj! (that is your previous Dual, UDP! You should love that kind of super Fe stuff! I'd look up some of your ESFj-praise posts but I'm too lazy).

[Ezra]

lefty, you're actually a twat for posting that shit. It's dickheads like you that clog up my fucking music when I'm trying to listen to it.

Isn't George W. EIE? I consider him to be a "creative" extremist.

No, he's a 7w6. I can't see an EIE 7.

[Animal]

The text sucks. If I knew a person like that, I'd probably make him trip "by accident". What a horribly wordy (rhetoric) person! "Oh I'd be like Jesus! Oh crucified! Oh extremist! blabla". If betas were actually like that, I'd move to delta!

If I'd type that text, I'd say that it's some extremely mentally malfunctioning Fe dominant! There are some extremely unlikely associoations there (jesus vs Thomas Jefferson, wtf?), so it feels like lack of proper Ni, but the logic of Ni is always subjective, so it could be an insane ENFj. More likely ESFj! (that is your previous Dual, UDP! You should love that kind of super Fe stuff! I'd look up some of your ESFj-praise posts but I'm too lazy).

Well I think you have to view this passage in its proper context to judge it correctly. King was an African American man, a Baptist minister, and speaking the context of the American Civil Rights Movement. This is actually the work of a sublime rhetorician. (I'm going to go all English-major on you, so be warned.) He is appealing to an intrinsic ethos and credibility he has as a minister in aligning his convictions with those of Jesus. Also, I don't think he's necessarily equating Jefferson with Jesus, but rather appealing back to the Declaration of Independence as a document that was "extremist" in its time, but which his country proclaims to be founded upon.

I don't really see anything "insane" or "sucky" about this, really. Of course, if it were coming from someone with less credibility (say, some random poster on this forum), it would indeed sound delusional and histrionic. But King was dealing with some serious stuff - lynchings, the KKK, McCarthyism, etc. so the comparisons are not out of place.

Granted, I'm not sure what is particularly Beta about it - except to say that possibly that "extremism" may not be such a bad thing when championing certain aims (although that isn't exclusively Beta, is it?).

[lefty]

Horrible, horrible rhetoric. Beta all round.

We dont give a shit what you think.

[Ezra]

Horrible, horrible rhetoric. Beta all round.

We dont give a shit what you think.

Speak for yourself, little man, speak for yourself.

[lefty]

Horrible, horrible rhetoric. Beta all round.

We dont give a shit what you think.

Speak for yourself, little man, speak for yourself.

take your own advice.

[Ezra]

Horrible, horrible rhetoric. Beta all round.

We dont give a shit what you think.

Speak for yourself, little man, speak for yourself.

take your own advice.

Sorry, I don't really understand your logic. I'm not the one making claims about what others think.

[tcaudilllg]

The text sucks. If I knew a person like that, I'd probably make him trip "by accident". What a horribly wordy (rhetoric) person! "Oh I'd be like Jesus! Oh crucified! Oh extremist! blabla". If betas were actually like that, I'd move to delta!

If I'd type that text, I'd say that it's some extremely mentally malfunctioning Fe dominant! There are some extremely unlikely associoations there (jesus vs Thomas Jefferson, wtf?), so it feels like lack of proper Ni, but the logic of Ni is always subjective, so it could be an insane ENFj. More likely ESFj! (that is your previous Dual, UDP! You should love that kind of super Fe stuff! I'd look up some of your ESFj-praise posts but I'm too lazy).

Well I think you have to view this passage in its proper context to judge it correctly. King was an African American man, a Baptist minister, and speaking the context of the American Civil Rights Movement. This is actually the work of a sublime rhetorician. (I'm going to go all English-major on you, so be warned.) He is appealing to an intrinsic ethos and credibility he has as a minister in aligning his convictions with those of Jesus. Also, I don't think he's necessarily equating Jefferson with Jesus, but rather appealing back to the Declaration of Independence as a document that was "extremist" in its time, but which his country proclaims to be founded upon.

I don't really see anything "insane" or "sucky" about this, really. Of course, if it were coming from someone with less credibility (say, some random poster on this forum), it would indeed sound delusional and histrionic. But King was dealing with some serious stuff - lynchings, the KKK, McCarthyism, etc. so the comparisons are not out of place.

Granted, I'm not sure what is particularly Beta about it - except to say that possibly that "extremism" may not be such a bad thing when championing certain aims (although that isn't exclusively Beta, is it?).

Not all of what King said was puppies'n'sugar. He had some serious axes to grind with a lot of people even outside the civil rights movement. In particular, his movement sometimes overtook subtly racist overtones: he began concentrating on issues primarily for their relevance to the condition of blacks, disparaging for their harm to "the negro" as opposed to all. He was rebuked for this though by the mainstream press, and apparently recognized this flaw in himself for what it was besides.

As for whether it is helpful or even important to express extreme positions of any kind... one should always seek to make rational decisions. If you allow yourself to get caught up in something -- hell, anything -- then invariably someone out there will catch themselves up in something opposed to you. It's the way of the world.

I will say this, though: extremists have no right to carry out their jihads/crusades/whatever in our society. That goes for all of them.