Experiences, observations, and stories of ESIs-ISFjs

[Ezra]

I've met what I think is my first ESI. I'm impressed.

Although he scored ISFJ in MBTT, I still think he is probably an ESI (I'm disregarding the whole IXXJ = IXXp thing). It fits him very well. He's a pretty moralistic guy, and he has high ideals and expectations. He reminds me of how some on this forum used to think I was like i.e. he has people he aspires to; Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Vito Corleone, which makes me think he almost certainly has ideals of how he wants to be. He's very, very polite, and can be somewhat self-conscious. He has an air of restraint, and if you touch his hair, he'll flip in seconds.

I couldn't imagine his being my supervisor at all, and the guy I originally thought was my supervisor I don't now. In fact, I actually admire his moral style, because I'm not akin to it; it's rare.

[FDG]

Eh? An ESI that wants to be like Mike Tyson and Vito Corleone? Mmmh.

[Ezra]

Eh? An ESI that wants to be like Mike Tyson and Vito Corleone? Mmmh.

ESIs are image-focused, yeah? Whatever they see as their ideal they will pursue.

[Ezra]

ISFj have Ne POLR. which as i understand it, prones them to worrying about the worst-case scenario. ime, this grounds them and if they are "image-focussed" it is in a more everyday, less idealistic way. i think this is amplified by "serious" values, which bring practical matters like close relationships and material well-being to the forefront.

if ISFj's moralize, to my understanding it will more be within the context of the effects on close relationships or long-term practical outcomes. more abstract moralization and likewise less personal ideals (e.g. famous people) i would not be inclined to associate with ISFj.

your description is very brief however, so it's quite possible the overall extent of your friend's behavior falls within this manner and it's just not readily evident in the description yet.

Maybe the IXXJ = Ixxp does follow here. He could well be an SEI I think.

Nonetheless, I'm not sure I agree with your initial statement about the ESI, mainly in conjunction with the LSI and their Ne PoLR. Basically, worst-case scenario brainstorming is as a result of aptitude in considering possibilities, which is in turn as a result of good Ne, not poor Ne. So, for example, an LII or EII is far more likely to consider a worst-case scenario than an LSI or ESI.

[FDG]

it's maybe worth noting that in the last pair, one's creative function is the other's hidden agenda. the ENj is more receptive to an Se push than say an ENp, in part because they value Se themselves. but aren't particularly good at it. sometimes a push is just what they need. likewise, the ISj is receptive to the ENj's Ni plans (perhaps more so than an ISp that would rather take things easily as they come) by a similar relationship with the Ni HA.

Every time I hear this I think I really am NOT ENj. I don't need a push, I do already so many things, that if somebody were to think "Oh I have to push him in this direction", I go ballistic totally when it's done on me and just tell the ISxj that I am the only one that can decide when to act.

[discojoe]

it's maybe worth noting that in the last pair, one's creative function is the other's hidden agenda. the ENj is more receptive to an Se push than say an ENp, in part because they value Se themselves. but aren't particularly good at it. sometimes a push is just what they need. likewise, the ISj is receptive to the ENj's Ni plans (perhaps more so than an ISp that would rather take things easily as they come) by a similar relationship with the Ni HA.

Every time I hear this I think I really am NOT ENj. I don't need a push, I do already so many things, that if somebody were to think "Oh I have to push him in this direction", I go ballistic totally when it's done on me and just tell the ISxj that I am the only one that can decide when to act.

You're an ESTp. If not, ESFp.

[FDG]

(re: FDG)
but i don't think "when" and "direction" apply too much. as the intuitor, i would think you mostly decide that. so maybe "push" as in pressure and motivation overall?? but if that still seems unnecessary to you, maybe discojoe is right and there's a good reason you're so fond of INFp's

I don't know...I already work, go to school, do sports, blah, you see if in one of those somebody tries to tell me "study more" "work more" or something like this, I tend to go ballistic? ISJs generally don't have more motivation than me, they have more "concentrated" motivation kind of like dropping all the activities to be only one thing. Maybe that's something I could benefit from. I've tried and I tend to become highly neurotic though.

another possibility: maybe the push is most positively received when the ENj is in a rut? as hidden agenda (as opposed to dual-seeking) ENj's do take some responsibility for their own Se. indeed at least for balanced-subtypes, Fi is supposed to be the big deal in a dual (hence why INFj's are the partial duals i would think. which interestingly enough aren't pushy types.)

Ok, I can understand it when an ENj is in a rut, don't know, I don't think many people really have so much time in their hands to allow themselves to be in a "rut" for a lot of time, though?

But yeah I do get along much better with Fi ones than Se. Se seem to want to push, push me to do things, push my buttons to make me react, and I'm like, wtf are ya doing

[Ezra]

i have no opinion on whether or not your friend is ISFp. would need more info.

Ask some questions. I'll answer as best I can.

[spritz]

I don't worry about worst-case scenarios and get all paranoid.

I sure do. And it destroys any hope for the potentially good outcomes. It's like I'll only act on what looks like a flawless long range plan - that is, unless I know I have more than ample resources at my disposal to act on and resolve whatever problems arise along the way.

[Ezra]

There's this guy who I'm living with next year, and I'm sure he's an ESI, but although not compromising, he's definitely very considerate, especially of possibilities. Does this limit the likelihood that he's an ESI (because he has Ne PoLR), or are ESIs capable of comfortably 'considering'?

[Expat]

There's this guy who I'm living with next year, and I'm sure he's an ESI, but although not compromising, he's definitely very considerate, especially of possibilities. Does this limit the likelihood that he's an ESI (because he has Ne PoLR), or are ESIs capable of comfortably 'considering'?

Not enough information.

And every type is capable of using every function; what disturbs ESIs are situations of uncertainty and ambiguity in things that they care about which otherwise make them anxious, because it's something they want to solve quickly. If it's something they don't care that much about, or something they know it's not going to have to be settled now anyway, it doesn't bother them.

[Ezra]

Well, put it this way. He was saying "keep a clear head" and "don't jump up too much about this, because it might fall through like all the others" about getting a place to live for next year, because I was going "yeah, it's brilliant, let's get the house now".

[aestrivex]

Well, put it this way. He was saying "keep a clear head" and "don't jump up too much about this, because it might fall through like all the others" about getting a place to live for next year, because I was going "yeah, it's brilliant, let's get the house now".

how is this supposed to be inconsistent with ESI? this is zero information anyway.

[Expat]

Well, put it this way. He was saying "keep a clear head" and "don't jump up too much about this, because it might fall through like all the others" about getting a place to live for next year, because I was going "yeah, it's brilliant, let's get the house now".

He was acting as the provider of to your impulse. Although not the most "natural" role for an ESI to find himself in, it makes sense when interacting with a SLE (as I assume you are).

It's like, say, the EIE interacting with the IEI -- the EIE naturally ends up having to provide the to the -seeking IEI, even if it's not the most natural thing for the EIE to do.

That's not a "confirmation" that he's ESI; I just see no obvious problem, as niffweed said.

[FDG]

He was acting as the provider of to your impulse.

Are you sure? Because I tend to think that ESI's act that way with LIEs to, which makes sense give most descriptions of intertype relationships between the two, the descriptions of the types, ESI's holographic thinking+negativism (okay, thinking styles are sometimes thought about as being bogus but let me use them), introversion, Ne PoLR, etc

[Expat]

No, I'm not "sure". Just providing one explanation to what Ezra described, assuming the guy is indeed ESI.

[Phaedrus]

No, I'm not "sure". Just providing one explanation to what Ezra described, assuming the guy is indeed ESI.

And assuming that Ezra is SLE, which he can't be if he is a Rational ENTJ in Keirsey/MBTT. Not until he starts to believe that he is an Artisan ESTP should we assume that he is an SLE. His test results and his self-image are incompatible with SLE at the moment, don't forget that.

[Ezra]

Phaedrus, what did you make of my "Is this accurate?" post in General Discussion (I think). People's responses were interesting. Many don't seem far off your own views, despite what they all say. They seem to use ad hominem ("I don't agree because Phaedrus thinks it").

[machintruc]

Some people see ESI's as pushy and rigid, others see them as friendly and generous. What do you think of ESI's ?

Example of anecdote with a female --+ ESI (the nurse of my former high school) : I was talking with her about my sleep issue (I have chronic insomnia), and that one time, I drank coffee in the night because I had to do a homework. She said something like : "YOU'RE ACTUALLY MAINTAINING YOUR INSOMINA ISSUE !!!!!". What the fuckshit ! You know, unline SEE's and SLE's, ESI's and LSI's don't really keep track of others' problems, be they loud or quiet.

Another example with my --0 ESI dad : I had to take a taxi with him and my mom. Then, because the taxi driver didn't want to make the trip we asked for, my dad shouted something like : "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU !? /insults the taxi driver/ HE CAN'T DO THAT, LET'S CALL SOME COP !!!!!". My dad pretty much gets upset very easily, like all S- Rational types. (declining a trip as a taxi driver is illegal in France)

I hate ESI's !!!

(I acknowledge that not all ESI's are S-D+ or S-D0, but S- ESI's look more prototypical of ESI)

[crazedrat]

For me, whether I like or hate the ESI depends on their subtype. If they are Fi subtype, they are rigid / unwavering on how things must be, and paranoid / rigid on how things must unfold in time (yes, thats a specific function related observation). They have a tendency to throw tantrums... are ineffective in life (cannot hold out a job, because of laziness)... will put you on guilt trips, will judge you constantly. etc. Will blame people for occurences which are of minor inconvenience, but seem to disrupt their mental framework for how things should be
... ESI-Se doesn't have any of those problems.. is a generous and easy going person. Less judging temperament.. and their mind is more absorbed into society.
There is a clear difference.
I've dated both subtypes... one I almost married (.... ), the other I wish I never had anything to do with.
Have also known a number of ESI-Fi's who display the same tendencies as earlier described

[Rubicon]

I think their no-nonsense way about them can be great if they're on your side - if not, . I feel like I have to be overly serious around them, because they disapprove if you make light of something that is apparently not supposed to be joked about. But they're caring, sincere people I think. My grandmother's ISFj. She's classic. She dances around the house to big-band music.

[Mediator Kam]

my mother is ESI, and I could write a book on her Fi base, Ti role, and Ne PoLR. Maybe a 5 volume set. I don't feel like it however.

[FDG]

For me, whether I like or hate the ESI depends on their subtype. If they are Fi subtype, they are rigid / unwavering on how things must be, and paranoid / rigid on how things must unfold in time (yes, thats a specific function related observation). They have a tendency to throw tantrums... are ineffective in life (cannot hold out a job, because of laziness)... will put you on guilt trips, will judge you constantly. etc. Will blame people for occurences which are of minor inconvenience, but seem to disrupt their mental framework for how things should be
... ESI-Se doesn't have any of those problems.. is a generous and easy going person. Less judging temperament.. and their mind is more absorbed into society.
There is a clear difference.
I've dated both subtypes... one I almost married (.... ), the other I wish I never had anything to do with.
Have also known a number of ESI-Fi's who display the same tendencies as earlier described

Actually where I live it's the reverse. Fi subtypes seem much more easygoing, Se subtypes quite bitchy and exacting.
It may just be that you're INTp-Ni and thus a less compatible subtype.

[discojoe]

Actually where I live it's the reverse. Fi subtypes seem much more easygoing, Se subtypes quite bitchy and exacting.
It may just be that you're INTp-Ni and thus a less compatible subtype.

lol

[crazedrat]

Actually where I live it's the reverse. Fi subtypes seem much more easygoing, Se subtypes quite bitchy and exacting.
It may just be that you're INTp-Ni and thus a less compatible subtype.

I do think it is related to this.. because I know two INTp-Tes who are good friends with the ESI-Fi. They seem to have more fluid conversations with her.. and the two have a similar sense of humour.. one which is little interest to me . I also have similar experiences with ESFp-Se vs. ESFp-Fi, where although I get along well with both, I get along more fluidly & with less "self examination.. or self modification" with the perceiving function subtype. Well, with ESFp-Se there is practically no self modification happening ..
Really, I can usually choose one subtype over the other inwhich I get along with more smoothly... regarding most types . From what I've noticed, the biggest outside-gamma difference with my subtype interactions is w/ EIEs.. where if they are Fe dominant, I perceive they are constantly maniputing me and will fantasize about killing them... (or at least I have in the past). if they are Ni dominant, I can be around them.. they leave me alone more, we can appreciate eachothers jokes... at a distance. But they nag me less, impose themselves on me less..... and so on.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request

[FDG]

My comment is, that probably the greatest majority of people are not experts of (or have a strong interested in) classical music, especially on a particular instrument such a violin. Also, Metro stations are often full of noise, so it's likely that the violin couldn't be heard from a distance of more than 10 metres. The outcome seems to be rather expected, but this doesn't mean I don't agree with the final comment: I do think too many people waste their life quickly commuting to work, then quickly commuting back home, and again and again and again...but, if they are happy with that, then they are not missing out on anything.

(of course, I'm not an ESI)

[calenwen]

i agree that could be true.

anyway i am interested in anyone's opinion (as long as i'll tell mine later) but especially in ESI's because of the context. as i know ESIs will think there is a trick and i'll probably be forced to bump it few times.

Well you do seem to have this rather aggravating habit of misconstruing things that people say to fit your own agenda, but I have heard this story before, find it interesting, and don't give a crap about your opinion, so...

They said that thousands of people walked by him - I doubt most of them even heard him. It was most likely loud and they were focused on getting to their destination, etc. I don't know that this is so much of an individual problem as it is society's. Everyone wants to think that they would be different, that they would have stayed and listened - but really, who just meanders around metro station for fun? Our society is all about deadlines and schedules and being on time and all that other worthless shit that won't matter in the end and most of these people probably couldn't spare the time without suffering some sort of consequence. Basically, it just wasn't convenient.

I don't think it sheds any great insight into human nature, either.

[strrrng]

Why is this posted as a question to ESIs, in the gamma forum? You really are a quack, ephemeros. You should probably be banned just for being the quack that you are.

[Creepy-bg]

now your just being a creepy troll Nick, following him around to respond negatively to all of his threads at every chance you get. leave the guy alone for awhile (same goes for ephemeros)

[strrrng]

I don't get it. Where else would you ask a question to ESIs?

Why was it a question to ESIs in the first place?

now your just being a creepy troll Nick, following him around to respond negatively to all of his threads at every chance you get. leave the guy alone for awhile (same goes for ephemeros)

Fair enough. It won't happen again.

[strrrng]

That's what people do at Socionics forums. They ask types questions. Types answer. Now calm down.

Yeah, but the question was why this specific type for this specific question. It seemed random (not that it is surprising for him).

And I am calm? Go away, please.

[Gilly]

Nick, stop being a tool.

[Gilly]

They said that thousands of people walked by him - I doubt most of them even heard him. It was most likely loud and they were focused on getting to their destination, etc. I don't know that this is so much of an individual problem as it is society's. Everyone wants to think that they would be different, that they would have stayed and listened - but really, who just meanders around metro station for fun? Our society is all about deadlines and schedules and being on time and all that other worthless shit that won't matter in the end and most of these people probably couldn't spare the time without suffering some sort of consequence. Basically, it just wasn't convenient.

I don't think it sheds any great insight into human nature, either.

I agree with this mostly, but do think about the numbers: only 6 people who passed by over an hour were both on a loose schedule and either appreciators of classical music, or simply recognized and appreciated the skill of a master out of sheer common sense; not exactly what one would call stringent qualifications. I mean, I'm not going to make some outlandish claim that everyone should listen to more classical music, or that it's a sign of decreasing average intelligence, or whatever, but I have to admit, it does seem like fewer than I personally would have guessed.

[calenwen]

I agree with this mostly, but do think about the numbers: only 6 people who passed by over an hour were both on a loose schedule and either appreciators of classical music, or simply recognized and appreciated the skill of a master out of sheer common sense; not exactly what one would call stringent qualifications. I mean, I'm not going to make some outlandish claim that everyone should listen to more classical music, or that it's a sign of decreasing average intelligence, or whatever, but I have to admit, it does seem like fewer than I personally would have guessed.

Heh, yeah, likewise. But you know how in cities there is always that shabby looking character playing some old tunes on the violin or guitar and maybe these people just kind of give him a glance and assumed he was of the same ilk (I'm not trying to imply that he is shabby), but like that is what people are used to, you know? So it would make sense if their mind just made that connection without giving it a second thought.

[Gilly]

Heh, yeah, likewise. But you know how in cities there is always that shabby looking character playing some old tunes on the violin or guitar and maybe these people just kind of give him a glance and assumed he was of the same ilk (I'm not trying to imply that he is shabby), but like that is what people are used to, you know? So it would make sense if their mind just made that connection without giving it a second thought.

Maybe, but have you ever seen a professional violinist play? It's pretty obvious that they know what they are doing, and especially in a complex or fast-paced piece, the movements they make tend to be very striking. Compare to some yokel who plays "joy to the world" on the street because he needs a few bucks; the difference would be obvious to a retard.

[calenwen]

Maybe, but have you ever seen a professional violinist play? It's pretty obvious that they know what they are doing, and especially in a complex or fast-paced piece, the movements they make tend to be very striking. Compare to some yokel who plays "joy to the world" on the street because he needs a few bucks; the difference would be obvious to a retard.

But if you were too far to hear clearly or just gave him a cursory glance...? Eh, I suppose it's not really important. :wink:

[strrrng]

Maybe, but have you ever seen a professional violinist play? It's pretty obvious that they know what they are doing, and especially in a complex or fast-paced piece, the movements they make tend to be very striking. Compare to some yokel who plays "joy to the world" on the street because he needs a few bucks; the difference would be obvious to a retard.

Yeah, the difference between THOSE examples is clear. But a professional violinist who's sitting against some wall, dressed like a hobo, isn't exactly going to look artistic with each stroke. Plus, as calenwen mentioned, most people will only give him cursory glances, due to being rushed and their preconceptions of what a person sitting on the street playing music is. Think about yourself in that situation: are you gonna give enough of a fuck about that bum on the sidewalk to ponder whether he could be a top-notch professional? If I was in a big rush, I might brush it off even if someone told me. It's tantamount to having howard stern dress up as some beaner and take your order at McDonalds: you just don't care to think about the possibility most of the time.

[strrrng]

DC is a pretty hot spot for street musicians, actually. It's like a modernized ghetto in parts, so there will be a certain raw feeling along with an upbeat quality. Anyway, sans southeast and parts of northeast, it can get pretty exciting at night (mostly northwest). I've seen dudes playing drums on plastic bins -- and very well. There's almost always someone playing the saxophone, with random, friendly bums interspersed throughout the narrow cross-walks and streets. They can actually get quite a bit of money in one night, given the popularity of sports and close proximity of the stadiums. For the most part, they serve as a melodic addition to the already hectic atmosphere, rather than a cacophonous intrusion on peoples' nightly activities.

[Joy]

My ESI receptionist wrote a little reminder on my schedule about daylight savings time. <3 She's so awesome.