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Thread: the hidden agenda in duality (and illusionary relations)

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    Default the hidden agenda in duality (and illusionary relations)

    This is sort of a continuation of Expat's thread about how people can make an ass of themselves by acting like their hidden agenda is stronger than it actually is.

    I think one of the things that our dual's do for us is make our own hidden agenda stronger. The strength of the function is totally dependent on their presence and continual support though. While in a way we know that we're only able to be strong in that function due to their input, they generally don't make a point out of it.

    This is why illusionary relations are so exciting and perhaps even euphoric in the beginning. They make us feel good about ourselves (assuming the people involved are healthy of course).

    I've also noticed that a compliment on the hidden agenda from an identical who I see as being very successful has a somewhat similar effect, though it's not a continual exchange as it is with an illusionary partner.
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    This is why illusionary relations are so exciting and perhaps even euphoric in the beginning. They make us feel good about ourselves (assuming the people involved are healthy of course).
    halfway there. it's the interaction of the illusionary partner's hidden agendas and creative functions that make you feel good. your illusionary appreciates your creative and you appreciate your illusionary's creative. this is what makes you feel good. the energy kind of bounces around like a ball in an old pinball machine.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I will elaborate this further, but I'm considering this now --

    You don't necessarily dislike your conflictor or supervisee, supervisor, quasi-identical etc. You may not want to live with them, but you may like them as different people from yourself whose priorities and abilities you respect even as they puzzle you.

    Generally disliked people - those who most people, of different (or even conflicting) types find annoying, are people who are over focusing on their hidden agenda and super-id generally.

    If you have social situation where a person is disliked by almost everyone - the possible exceptions being their identicals and duals - they're probably emphasizing way too much their super-id functions.

    Generally liked, or at least respected people, are those who "remain" mainly in their ego functions.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Your dual or illusionary partner remove this danger, because they prevent you from making an ass of yourself with your HA.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    they're probably emphasizing way too much their super-id functions.

    Generally liked, or at least respected people, are those who "remain" mainly in their ego functions.
    Is this something a person has control over, or is it just the situation that makes a person choose his functions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I will elaborate this further, but I'm considering this now --

    You don't necessarily dislike your conflictor or supervisee, supervisor, quasi-identical etc. You may not want to live with them, but you may like them as different people from yourself whose priorities and abilities you respect even as they puzzle you.

    Generally disliked people - those who most people, of different (or even conflicting) types find annoying, are people who are over focusing on their hidden agenda and super-id generally.

    If you have social situation where a person is disliked by almost everyone - the possible exceptions being their identicals and duals - they're probably emphasizing way too much their super-id functions.

    Generally liked, or at least respected people, are those who "remain" mainly in their ego functions.
    I'd say that this is true and it even explains why some people of the same quadra may dislike each other.
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    "Is this something a person has control over, or is it just the situation that makes a person choose his functions?"

    It probably depends on the situation. If the situation is stressing the super-id functions heavily, then I would suppose they would have no control over looking like an ass while using them, due to the fact that their use becomes necessary in such a situation. However, if the person is just insecure about themselves and wants to portray their weak points, or even try to use them as if they're strong points, simply in order to feel better about themselves, than they can definitely control that...depending upon your definition of "control." At any rate, in the latter situation, it definitely isn't your situation that's determining your actions: it's your responsibility. So in that situation, you need to learn how to deal with your own insecurities and stop making yourself look like an ass.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    they're probably emphasizing way too much their super-id functions.

    Generally liked, or at least respected people, are those who "remain" mainly in their ego functions.
    Is this something a person has control over, or is it just the situation that makes a person choose his functions?
    Of course people have control over themselves, but I think that the people who they grew up with or have spent a lot of time around have a great influence on this. If your ego functions are not rewarded and you see other functions rewarded in other people, it's a natural response to try to use those functions.
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    What Expat said really interests me in regards to how focus on the Super-Id functions will generate dislike and annoyance from people of all types. I find this to be very true, but have never thought about it until he mentioned it.

    I am a victim of this myself - sometimes I over exert myself in and , trying to become this forceful, logical person. It's actually how I come across to many people in real life (so they say) and in turn, I end up intimidating and scaring off most people who see me from a distance/don't know me personally very well. I'm generally not really liked by the public, and only can really show myself in this inner circle of friends, or even online... yes, it sucks to admit that I'm not so popular in high school, but it's true. People have told me countless times how bitchy/snobby I act ... this really makes sense if I think about how much I over-emphasize Super-Id functions ... I think I'm really good at them and such .. errrk.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    What Expat said really interests me in regards to how focus on the Super-Id functions will generate dislike and annoyance from people of all types. I find this to be very true, but have never thought about it until he mentioned it.

    I am a victim of this myself - sometimes I over exert myself in and , trying to become this forceful, logical person. It's actually how I come across to many people in real life (so they say) and in turn, I end up intimidating and scaring off most people who see me from a distance/don't know me personally very well. I'm generally not really liked by the public, and only can really show myself in this inner circle of friends, or even online... yes, it sucks to admit that I'm not so popular in high school, but it's true. People have told me countless times how bitchy/snobby I act ... this really makes sense if I think about how much I over-emphasize Super-Id functions ... I think I'm really good at them and such .. errrk.
    I find it hard to believe that you would have difficulties being liked IRL, you seem so likeable here. I wonder if you have that ENFj thing whereby you think that everyone or most people dislike you even when it is the opposite.
    I disagree with the whole super-id use/being universally disliked theory thing as presented here myself.

    Also, being negativist with an polr probably makes it hard for you to be consistently casual, informal and lighthearted, you are probably just naturally a rather serious person even without using and . Most really popular people are creative types it seems and ESFps in particular often seem really proud of being liked by everyone(or maybe they just think they are).
    Socionics: XNFx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    they're probably emphasizing way too much their super-id functions.

    Generally liked, or at least respected people, are those who "remain" mainly in their ego functions.
    Is this something a person has control over, or is it just the situation that makes a person choose his functions?
    Of course people have control over themselves, but I think that the people who they grew up with or have spent a lot of time around have a great influence on this. If your ego functions are not rewarded and you see other functions rewarded in other people, it's a natural response to try to use those functions.
    I am EII, but was never rewarded for this; in fact it has caused me much pain with my family (betas). I have tried to access Fe effectively, but always end up going to Se. The only way I even show up on their radar is when I am using Se, so they push me into this, but my Se usage is crude and I come off as rude to them. This is incredibly frustrating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I think that the people who they grew up with or have spent a lot of time around have a great influence on this. If your ego functions are not rewarded and you see other functions rewarded in other people, it's a natural response to try to use those functions.
    This is what we discussed in Duesseldorf at some length.

    For instance, a dominant type who grows up in, or spends much time in, an environment where initiatives are not welcomed, would end up being discouraged from doing them, and become reserved and retiring -- more "introverted".

    That would explain why some, say, functional EIEs might see themselves as "introverts".
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat

    they're probably emphasizing way too much their super-id functions.

    Generally liked, or at least respected people, are those who "remain" mainly in their ego functions.
    Is this something a person has control over, or is it just the situation that makes a person choose his functions?
    Of course people have control over themselves, but I think that the people who they grew up with or have spent a lot of time around have a great influence on this. If your ego functions are not rewarded and you see other functions rewarded in other people, it's a natural response to try to use those functions.
    I am EII, but was never rewarded for this; in fact it has caused me much pain with my family (betas). I have tried to access Fe effectively, but always end up going to Se. The only way I even show up on their radar is when I am using Se, so they push me into this, but my Se usage is crude and I come off as rude to them. This is incredibly frustrating.
    this is interesting. my dad id EII and was always slapping my Fi polr, so i'd give him a lot of Se to slap him back. lol. my theory on why i have stronger Se than entp's usually have....

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    My theory as to why I'm an ethical subtype is that my family growing up was generally very Fi-friendly. Mom with dual-seeking Fi, brother and sister both with leading Fi. Whereas Ne just lead to Ne/Ni fights with my ENTj mom and ENFj dad. "If you do that, this will happen." "Oh, please, lots of things could happen. You don't know what's going to happen." "There are trends. History always repeats itself. Things are predictable." "Maybe something bad will happen, but hey maybe something great will happen. Or maybe nothing much at all will happen. But I won't find out if I don't do it." "If you do it, you'll regret it." Etc. *sigh*
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    Yeah, my parents are IEI and (most likely) SLE, and I think that's why I've had a greater focus on Ni and Se.
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    my family is very Ne dominant and we'd all get into these interesting philosophical discussions which i certainly joined in on, but the family was delta majority except for me and my LII brother, who was in a better position with delta anyway, leaving poor me lol ILE, feelin the supervision and "benefit". LII brother with Fi role function blended better plus supervised one other brother, illusionary with my mom, and lookalike with my dad. needless to say, i didn't fit in all that well there, .

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively
    my family is very Ne dominant and we'd all get into these interesting philosophical discussions which i certainly joined in on, but the family was delta majority except for me and my LII brother, who was in a better position with delta anyway, leaving poor me lol ILE, feelin the supervision and "benefit". LII brother with Fi role function blended better plus supervised one other brother, illusionary with my mom, and lookalike with my dad. needless to say, i didn't fit in all that well there, .

    Did you not feel like you benefitted from your ESTj parent? I would have thought that relations of benefit might be quite good for the parent/child relationship.

    Also, a lot of people here just seem to have a lot of intuitives in their families. It seems nearly everyone in my family is a sensor especially the XSXp kind . I cannot complain too much because they have all just sort of let me be for the most part from the start and did not overly encourage me or my ISTp brother to be anything except maybe to talk a bit more/be more outgoing and I had to be a bit more assertive than I would probably be naturally because my ESFp mother can be quite over-powering.
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    There's only one sensor in my family (there are 5 of us). (And I'm not talking about my family.)
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    Did you not feel like you benefitted from your ESTj parent? I would have thought that relations of benefit might be quite good for the parent/child relationship.
    well let's just say my mom liked boys better. relationship with her was better than with my dad, whose infj-ness was further magnified by his profession as a minister. she would give me what she thought i needed which was not at all what i needed, common i guess in families. but there's lots of good things about my mom. she's consistent, energetic, has good ideas. but the connection just wasn't there.

    Also, a lot of people here just seem to have a lot of intuitives in their families. It seems nearly everyone in my family is a sensor especially the XSXp kind . I cannot complain too much because they have all just sort of let me be for the most part from the start and did not overly encourage me or my ISTp brother to be anything except maybe to talk a bit more/be more outgoing and I had to be a bit more assertive than I would probably be naturally because my ESFp mother can be quite over-powering.
    yes you might be on to something here. too much intuition is not necessarily a good thing.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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