The pathetic hidden agenda

[PotatoSpirit]

But I think it's only if it is "Te with good Ti". I also liked Igor's Ti-based formulations, but while they are backed by "good Te". I think that "Te with bad Ti" would annoy you as much as "Ti with bad Te" annoys me.

Interesting, I'll try to spot them.

Yes, I agree on the "protecting your dual" bit. I must say, though, that illusionary can go either way. For instance, in things like "dressing like you're supposed to" my LSI friend can be quite annoying some times, because then the Si is "at the service" of his Ti structure. So it's not really Si that's his concern, it's Ti, but it's Si that makes me devalue it.

Are you sure there is Si there? Does he really care about "aesthetically pleasing", or does he just want "appropriate"?

[Expat]

you say "ethical behavior" and i ask myself what you mean by ethical behavior. behavior is just patterns of objects to study, handle, etc. perhaps any apparent rigidness in evaluating behavior is a result of trying to see a situation clearly and handle it without bias. i've gotten the wtf reaction at times, generally (i think) because people are used to seeing me very laid back and almost too tolerant of a wide range of behavior. but if you are swimming in the ocean and there are no sharks in sight, you will most likely not be thinking about staying away from the shark or acting as if one is nearby. this would mean you'd never feel free to play in the ocean. but if you see a shark in your vicinity, you redefine your boundaries /priorities (in other words, get out of the ocean) because there is immediate danger. the shark's entry, like the behavior in question, is the turning point, that object that threatens the very life (of the relationship) or the validity (of the ocean) as you've come to understand it. the ocean represents "the way things always have been." so, i would say that much of this uncompromising judgment may result from an attack on boundaries, and then, a sudden need to detach in order to see the true nature of things.

If the boundaries you are talking about are , then the issue is that you occasionally see a great white shark where dominants may see a more harmless species, and react to the threat with a little less panic.

[Expat]

Yes, I agree on the "protecting your dual" bit. I must say, though, that illusionary can go either way. For instance, in things like "dressing like you're supposed to" my LSI friend can be quite annoying some times, because then the Si is "at the service" of his Ti structure. So it's not really Si that's his concern, it's Ti, but it's Si that makes me devalue it.

Are you sure there is Si there? Does he really care about "aesthetically pleasing", or does he just want "appropriate"?

Good question. It is more about Ti-Fe "appropriate", but the reason why he notices it (and I don't) it's because of higher focus on Si.

[Ms. Kensington]

- your 7th function: something you are strong/confident in but don't value, yet you take it seriously when you see it "misused". So you are likely to be annoyed by, and to annoy, those who value it but are unconfident in it (your conflictor, super-ego, supervisee, look-alike).

I have very recently discovered that I can appreciate Te based conversations, I just don't naturally go that way.

- your 8th function: something you are strong/confident in and don't value, and you don't really take seriously. So you do not annoy your dual with it (who has it as PoLR), much less expect your dual to use it or value it. You disappoint/annoy your conflictor and supervisor who do expect you to use it and to value it.

This is totally true IME, especially with Si creative and HA. Not sure why it happens less with Si leading.
Has been said before, but I think you also protect your dual from people who use it, by actively going against it. I'm guessing it's part of the appeal of an illusionary relationship.

Me too. I do think I have different levels of conflict with INxps as I do with ENxjs. Not sure if I value that?

Description on the 7th is true for me. I get very annoyed with ISFps for example, if their factual accuracy is totally off or otherwise they are misusing Te from my perspective.

[guest32456]

Interestingly, I chose Ni and Se as the most likely to be my hidden agenda. I also chose Ti and Fi, somewhat because I see my "ideas" as intertwined with my "personal behaviour".

How might you interpret this?

[Jonathan]

I hadn't noticed this interesting thread until today, but just a few comments:
* It seems that there are more choices than "stick to your strong functions" vs. "use your weak ones (e.g., HA) pathetically." For example, someone with Ti HA might also express it by studying topics are that Ti-oriented and developing an ability to follow Ti-oriented discussions competently. That would be a positive use of HA-Ti.

* The main way I've seen "bad" Ti HA expressed in people I've met in person is by relying on a deep serious voice, authoritative tone, or putting on an academic-like emotion to get people to accept one's position. Nevertheless, I've never met an IxFp in person who was really very obstinate; most are pretty willing to concede their position if given the right reasons to do so.

[Expat]

I hadn't noticed this interesting thread until today, but just a few comments:
* It seems that there are more choices than "stick to your strong functions" vs. "use your weak ones (e.g., HA) pathetically." For example, someone with Ti HA might also express it by studying topics are that Ti-oriented and developing an ability to follow Ti-oriented discussions competently. That would be a positive use of HA-Ti.

* The main way I've seen "bad" Ti HA expressed in people I've met in person is by relying on a deep serious voice, authoritative tone, or putting on an academic-like emotion to get people to accept one's position. Nevertheless, I've never met an IxFp in person who was really very obstinate; most are pretty willing to concede their position if given the right reasons to do so.

Like many people, you are totally missing the point.

Those descriptions are not of the types' normal and healthy behavior, even when using the hidden agenda. They are of - as stated several times - when you are being pathetic using it.

Someone who fits the descriptions of their types's HA as stated here is someone annoying, arrogant, pathetic, an ass, generally disliked by most people - except their duals, identicals and perhaps look-alikes.

As I have already said, if you don't identify with those descriptions for your type (although I'd expect everyone to behave like that on occasion), then congratulations, you are not being pathetic and an ass.

So you're essentially arguing against a point that I never made, Jonathan.

@Five: that just confirms that you're ISXj; but I think you're not really seeing those descriptions for what they are meant to represent.

[Expat]

Elaborating a bit --

: behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

SLEs: more likely to do that by pranks, being loud, physically playful in an intimidating way (even if not their intention).

ILEs: more likely to do that that by being a smart-ass, making fun of others, behaving in a "weird supposed to be cool" way, but not physically

: unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct

SEI: more likely to do that by claiming "I have much more life experience on that than you"

IEI: more likely to do that by claiming "I have given this matter much more thought than you; I have reflected on this many hours"

: behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

EIE: more likely to focus on "famous" or "important" people they know ie name-dropping, as if to show they belong to some "elite"; positions and status are emphasized rather than actual wealth - example I witnessed: "I met Emperor Hirohito - President Reagan introduced me to him, you know". Mentioning that you move around "successful people".

LIE: more likely to focus on actual material possessions, successful investments, business ventures, and particularly "clever" purchases ie "I bought this very good car for a ridiculously small amount of money". If mentioning other people, perhaps just the spouse.

I have to think more about the others.

[Expat]

: unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases

ESI: more likely to be the case in taking action to "settle" a personal relationship one way or the other, or to "solve" a problem regarding work, money, or the like.

LSI: more likely to be the case in taking action to "destroying" an "enemy" or "making amends" with someone who, you fear, may otherwise "hate" you

I use quotes because I am talking about the intention -- the result is often the precise opposite

[guest32456]

@Five: that just confirms that you're ISXj; but I think you're not really seeing those descriptions for what they are meant to represent.

OK - I agree, thank you

[discojoe]

LIE: more likely to focus on actual material possessions, successful investments, business ventures, and particularly "clever" purchases ie "I bought this very good car for a ridiculously small amount of money". If mentioning other people, perhaps just the spouse.

Gah, I do that all the time (and nobody ever seems to be impressed).

Wow, Joy does that all the time. LOL.

EDIT: And by "all the time" I mean "sometimes".

[discojoe]

: unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases

ESI: more likely to be the case in taking action to "settle" a personal relationship one way or the other, or to "solve" a problem regarding work, money, or the like.

LSI: more likely to be the case in taking action to "destroying" an "enemy" or "making amends" with someone who, you fear, may otherwise "hate" you

I use quotes because I am talking about the intention -- the result is often the precise opposite

I relate to both of those. How do you know one is more likely than the other?

[Expat]

I relate to both of those. How do you know one is more likely than the other?

Well, partly based on (some) personal observations; and partly based on what makes most sense theoretically - ie the influence of the corresponding quadra values (base function and dual-seeking).

Of course I may be getting too specific.

[liveandletlive]

These aren't necessarily pathetic behavior per se, more just my own experiences with each hidden agenda...


- they ask you a lot of questions so you feel "special"- "How did your test go?"
- take pride in their relations with others
- always doing social networking some way- involved in clubs, etc.
- often ask you "are you mad at me?" as if to gauge your emotions
- tends to do nice things for others, considerate


- very interested in other people's personal lives, as if to gain a deeper understanding on some life matters that they can generalize
- somewhat "slow" in the fact that it's hard for them to pick up new concepts or ideas


- very curious, ask a lot of questions about their surroundings
- often make impulsive decisions, known for having crazy lives for putting themselves in ridiculous situations


- hard to open up to other people, give you a challenge
- despite the above point, if you really need them they are there for you
- not so big on the whole manners thing, not the most considerate of others


- try to be more creative than they actually are- especially in their surroundings, tastes, etc.


- concerned about their own health and the health of others
- often remind you to eat a good meal, rest, etc.
- have little things they do as if to deter to bad health, whether related to detering bad health or not (ex. and EII i know drinks purple vitamin water everyday, even though there's a bunch of sugar in them)
- IME, gets freaked out by needles and graphic surgery shows


- very concerned with their own appearance- vain; they know there appearance is often not cohesive or complimenting
- eyes light up when they talk about money or expensive things- splurges occasionally on expensive handbags (usually they have a logo of the designer on them as if to advertise that they spent a lot of money on them... in general, they're label whores)
- can be cheap


- often have deep-held beliefs about things, don't care whether you agree with them or not


thoughts???

[mustachio]

These aren't necessarily pathetic behavior per se, more just my own experiences with each hidden agenda...


- they ask you a lot of questions so you feel "special"- "How did your test go?"
- take pride in their relations with others
- always doing social networking some way- involved in clubs, etc.
- often ask you "are you mad at me?" as if to gauge your emotions
- tends to do nice things for others, considerate

thoughts???

i can definitely relate with some of this. normally, i'll ask questions in order to seem "human" and not so focused on myself. i take pride in my relations with others because i believe (wrongly) that some people might see my relative moral emptiness. i'm not so much involved in social networking except when it comes to keeping up with my closest friends and seducing women (or to give the impression that i'm good at it which is sort of a half truth). the "are you mad at me" is dead on. i service others only if i feel like i'll gain something from it.

[liveandletlive]

- very concerned with their own appearance- vain; they know there appearance is often not cohesive or complimenting
- eyes light up when they talk about money or expensive things- splurges occasionally on expensive handbags (usually they have a logo of the designer on them as if to advertise that they spent a lot of money on them... in general, they're label whores)
- can be cheap

I don't think LIEs are going to identify as much with this, maybe not even male EIEs.

For me personally:

My concern about my appearance is somewhat unstable. I don't spontaneously think about it at all but in times when I do think about it (like, when getting dressed) I am just plain paranoid about it if I try to wear a colour or style I have not worn 100 times successfully before (this is why I usually wear all black if I can help it).

I can relate to the second point if you totally remove the part about splurging on handbags. I really don't give a damn about handbags as long as it is big enough and has enough pockets for its intended purpose (heck, I don't even know what the good designer labels are... my mum tries to educate me actually but I just don't care).

Yes, I am cheap. I spend only half my means (would be less if I was not paying off my laptop), I am extremely reluctant to buy anything at RRP even if I really need it (surely I can find a cheaper equivalent somewhere else?), I use open-source software wherever possible (as long as I am confident that it does the job just as well), I watch vigilantly for sales.

the handbags thing was just an example that i thought mite clarify what i was trying to say- obviously for males this most likely won't apply.

[liveandletlive]

- very concerned with their own appearance- vain; they know there appearance is often not cohesive or complimenting
- eyes light up when they talk about money or expensive things- splurges occasionally on expensive handbags (usually they have a logo of the designer on them as if to advertise that they spent a lot of money on them... in general, they're label whores)
- can be cheap

I don't think LIEs are going to identify as much with this, maybe not even male EIEs.

For me personally:

My concern about my appearance is somewhat unstable. I don't spontaneously think about it at all but in times when I do think about it (like, when getting dressed) I am just plain paranoid about it if I try to wear a colour or style I have not worn 100 times successfully before (this is why I usually wear all black if I can help it).

I can relate to the second point if you totally remove the part about splurging on handbags. I really don't give a damn about handbags as long as it is big enough and has enough pockets for its intended purpose (heck, I don't even know what the good designer labels are... my mum tries to educate me actually but I just don't care).

Yes, I am cheap. I spend only half my means (would be less if I was not paying off my laptop), I am extremely reluctant to buy anything at RRP even if I really need it (surely I can find a cheaper equivalent somewhere else?), I use open-source software wherever possible (as long as I am confident that it does the job just as well), I watch vigilantly for sales.

the handbags thing was just an example that i thought mite clarify what i was trying to say- obviously for males this most likely won't apply.

I didn't specifically mean the handbags, but the designer-consciousness and physical-appearance-consciousness.

i thought u agreed with the physical-appearance-consciousness? IME that has been the most telling sign of someone with a HA. The EIE and LIE guys i know are all gym rats and the girls although not as bad as them are still self-conscious to a degree.

[FDG]

- very concerned with their own appearance- vain; they know there appearance is often not cohesive or complimenting
- eyes light up when they talk about money or expensive things- splurges occasionally on expensive handbags (usually they have a logo of the designer on them as if to advertise that they spent a lot of money on them... in general, they're label whores)
- can be cheap

I tend to be vain, yeah, even if your first point is not exactly coherent: if I know my appearance is not cohesive, then it's less likely that I'm vain, right?

By the way, I think going to the gym and-or working out isn't necessarily related to this. Many EJs' have a lot of energy, and the busier adult lifestyle is likely to give them less time to expend it in sports, so they might revert to the most efficient usage of their time in order to keep physical fitness.

Designer clothing: this seems to be more awareness-related than type-related. Personally, I love shiny, tacky, colorful things but I abhor designer clothing. However, I've seen the opposite happen in other Ni-EJs, so I cannot confirm or disagree with this.

[FDG]

It's taken from Ice T - Money, Power, Women - and placed there purposefully to make people think that I'm trying to appear badass. So, you fell right into my trap

[hellothere]

- concerned about their own health and the health of others
- often remind you to eat a good meal, rest, etc.
- have little things they do as if to deter to bad health, whether related to detering bad health or not (ex. and EII i know drinks purple vitamin water everyday, even though there's a bunch of sugar in them)
- IME, gets freaked out by needles and graphic surgery shows

Not 100% sure I'm an EII or LII but that definitely describes me!

[UDP]

Trap? I wanted you to comment on it, no more no less.

It's taken from Ice T - Money, Power, Women - and placed there purposefully to make people think that I'm trying to appear badass. So, you fell right into my trap Razz

You're still trying to make yourself look cool.
If you weren't, you'd have not tried to spin it so "someone fell" into "your trap".
Maybe you are more concerned with trying to make yourself look good than you realize.

[FDG]

Obviously I want to look cool. Why would I want to deny that?

[Blaze]

These aren't necessarily pathetic behavior per se, more just my own experiences with each hidden agenda...


- they ask you a lot of questions so you feel "special"- "How did your test go?"
- take pride in their relations with others
- always doing social networking some way- involved in clubs, etc.
- often ask you "are you mad at me?" as if to gauge your emotions
- tends to do nice things for others, considerate

thoughts???

i can definitely relate with some of this. normally, i'll ask questions in order to seem "human" and not so focused on myself. i take pride in my relations with others because i believe (wrongly) that some people might see my relative moral emptiness. i'm not so much involved in social networking except when it comes to keeping up with my closest friends and seducing women (or to give the impression that i'm good at it which is sort of a half truth). the "are you mad at me" is dead on. i service others only if i feel like i'll gain something from it.

yep. i can relate.

[eunice]

- very interested in other people's personal lives, as if to gain a deeper understanding on some life matters that they can generalize
- somewhat "slow" in the fact that it's hard for them to pick up new concepts or ideas

Wow. That's so much like me. Actually, I feel that the first point relates more to leading Fi.

[UDP]

: behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

I'd like to add "intelligent" to this, particularly when they relate intelligence to power or prestige, or social status, etc.

I have known a few people with HA who are quite pedantic and drop bits of "fascinating information" all the time. It amazes me when it works on people who are unaware or enamored by such things, but apparently it works. (Particularly when they are blatantly pointing out how they are better or superior to other people)

I have seen more than one XIE put so much spin on everything they say to disparately portray this image, when in fact they would seem much more "intellectually successful" if they just stopped talking about it all the time.

So yes,

-very concerned with their own appearance- vain;

To the point of insecurity, but they actually think they are putting on a rooster walk - top cock.

[Jonathan]

These aren't necessarily pathetic behavior per se, more just my own experiences with each hidden agenda...

These seem to be good observations and pretty life-like. I'm not sure if they're individually accurate or not. It's interesting that the two behaviors that really sound like things I do are "often ask you 'are you mad at me?' as if to gauge your emotions" and "freaked out by needles and graphic surgery shows." I suspect that's just because you can't really type people based on HA behaviors, rather than that I'm really ETp or INj.

Overall, this list may possibly reflect more behaviors that characterize uncertainty or lack of confidence in a given function, rather than necessarily being only the activation (HA) function.

[Jonathan]

So you're essentially arguing against a point that I never made, Jonathan.

I fully understand that the initial point of this thread was to highlight dysfunctional uses of the 6th function, as opposed to "normal" uses. In my post, I was simply reacting to comments like this one...

Generally liked people - even by their conflictors - are those who use mainly their ego, or perhaps also their id.

...which seemed to imply that the "solution" is to use the 6th function less. If you don't mean that, then we simply agree...I'm not arguing...simply stressing that there's no need to suppress the function; it's a matter of using it correctly. I think we're in agreement on that.

[Jonathan]

And, by the way, I don't mean to belittle what's an essential truth in the statement that focus on id rather than super-id would make one more attractive to people of the conflicting quadra. It seems though, at least theoretically, that in look-alike ("business"), relations, a feeling of "commonality" in the use of the 6th function may lead to a certain sense of bonding. Furthermore, it seems to me that people who are particularly competent in their super-id block, especially in their suggestive function, tend to have a sort of "super human" quality that can draw people towards them.

[consentingadult]

The focus on one's hidden agenda is also manifested in a "patting yourself on the back" way, when you are reassuring others that you are actually good in doing something, but it's painfully obvious to others that you are above all reassuring yourself and not doing a good job at it - and by doing that, you end up behaving in a pathetic way.

So:

: behavior aimed at showing how popular and liked by the crowd you are, but that is actually making you look like an ass.

: unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct

unshakeable and stubborn unwillingness to compromise on personal behavior and principles against all opposition in a social situation

: behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

: unshakeable belief that you know exactly what is going to happen in your life in a given situation, or precipitated action since you know that "now is the time to act", but ending up shooting your own foot in both cases

: behavior aimed at showing how successful, rich, or physically strong and brave and confrontational you are, when others can see you're none of them

: showing off how wiser you are than others in taking care of your health by good food and avoiding personal risks, but making you look like a paranoid pussy-wimp. Also, an essentially unphysical person trying to show off how they master daily details in administration, maintainance, housekeeping, etc

: behavior aiming at showing how original and creative you can be, but making too much out of obvious and trivial ideas.

So if you see someone behaving in a pathetic way, just remember -- on other occasions, it's you doing it.

say Expat, are posts like these already on the wiki? If not, i think they would make great contributions, as they are perfect for reference and helping people develop their typing skills.

[JuJu]

: behavior aimed at showing how competent you are in handling practical and financial affairs, or in how much knowledge in a particular subject you have, but painfully focusing on non-essentials to the point made

Harvard, Expat?

Excellent post, btw. Very informative and helpful.

[Slacker]

Harvard, Expat?

Excellent post, btw. Very informative and helpful.

That was exactly what I thought you were doing when you brought up Harvard. I would do the same thing. "No, really! I have good information! I went to Harvard!" LOL. Except I didn't go to Harvard.

[Ezra]

Obviously I want to look cool. Why would I want to deny that?

You are cool, Fabio. That's why you're not Se HA. In fact, the Te HA definition fits you quite well.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

unshakeable and stubborn defense of ideas and beliefs against all opposition, with unwillingness to even discuss the possibility of their not being correct.

Do I really do this gang? Honestly? Just wondering.

[dbmmama]

Do I really do this gang? Honestly? Just wondering.

yeah, but it's cute.

[Expat]

say Expat, are posts like these already on the wiki? If not, i think they would make great contributions, as they are perfect for reference and helping people develop their typing skills.

Thanks. I think implied put them there, but on her own pages.

@everyone

Please note that such behavior is visible only when you are over-focusing on your HA. But, when you do, and go over the top, I think that's how it's going to be perceived by that function's "professionals".

[Ms. Kensington]

Thanks. I think implied put them there, but on her own pages.

@everyone

Please note that such behavior is visible only when you are over-focusing on your HA. But, when you do, and go over the top, I think that's how it's going to be perceived by that function's "professionals".

i think i am critical of people with role Ne. but yeah .. lol estj.

[Ezra]

yeah, but it's cute.

I honestly don't even see BulletsAndDoves as having any ideas which he defends.

[Rubicon]

I relate to the Ne one.

[Rubicon]

I could have related to the Fe one when I was much younger. But now I see that kind behaviour as, frankly, immature and embarrassing.



ZOMG ESFj. And I thought I knew who you were.

ZOMG, I'LL HAVE TO START WRITING IN CAPITALS AND SAYING ZOMG.

[Rubicon]

ZOMG! I wish there were more ESFjs on the forum.

They must all have lives.