How Dangerous is Socionics?

[Blaze]

been thinking about this lately...socionics info falling into the wrong hands here in the USA. it occured to me that the MBTI folks, while their functional ordering is out of whack, perhaps kept back the unconscious functions from the public out of fear of what people here in the USA would do with this info. they phrased things in the so called sugar coated way to avoid people being scapegoated for their weaker functions. truth be told, myers briggs has been misused and abused by corporations with suspicious hiring practices here in the west even though it is sugar coated.

i was thinking the MBTI people would be right because look what's happening here at the forum....we're getting into these conflicts over Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te, Se vs Ne etc etc etc. these conflicts are probably not a bad thing here.....but when they are played out on a political public forum, or used for profit or gain or manipulation by unscrupulous people who are unrestrained here in the West....then what?

is socionics the poisoned apple in the garden of eden? if so, how? if not, why not?

how is this theory best used do we think?

/edit/

[Expat]

Sure. I think it would be a catastrophe if western corporations started to use socionics regularly. But fortunately I don't think it will ever happen.

[Creepy-bg]

Sure. I think it would be a catastrophe if western corporations started to use socionics regularly. But fortunately I don't think it will ever happen.

well they already use MBTI... although I think the confusion caused when switching from one to the other may go a long way towards making using socionics impractical from a business standpoint. For their purposes, MBTT works good enough.

[Ezra]

No, most of them are narrow-minded. They'd all be saying "ahh, it's just sensationalist bullshit - another MBTT wrapped in different paper; a worse kind". They wouldn't be arsed with all the nitty gritty of socionics. It just wouldn't happen. Plus, because it's rarer, they would have to pay more because the teachers are fewer. So they'd think they were being conned. It just wouldn't be useful enough to their business either. Why do people give a shit about relationships? They care about the individual, and if you're not suited to the job, you're out. Socionics doesn't aid this. MBTT does.

[Blaze]

No, most of them are narrow-minded. They'd all be saying "ahh, it's just sensationalist bullshit - another MBTT wrapped in different paper; a worse kind". They wouldn't be arsed with all the nitty gritty of socionics. It just wouldn't happen. Plus, because it's rarer, they would have to pay more because the teachers are fewer. So they'd think they were being conned. It just wouldn't be useful enough to their business either. Why do people give a shit about relationships? They care about the individual, and if you're not suited to the job, you're out. Socionics doesn't aid this. MBTT does.

good point. very capitalistic interpretation for sure. socionics could be very useful as a supervision and management tool, though, for making staff do what you want. it could be useful as a political tool for those interested in gaining power or moving up.

what's making me think about this is that there is a certain naivete in socionics for spelling out individual and group psychology so succinctly and clearly. socionics was invented by an ILE the type which is known for just spewing out information without thinking of how it can be used for bad. look at the atom and hydrogen bombs of the 40's....did einstein expect his theories to be used this way?

i guess i'm looking for some Ne type of brainstorming of what the possibilities of this are. like, do we envision a world where one quadra or another begins to dominate wealth and subjugate other quadras for example? or do we see a world where IM differences are valued and the quadras come together to bring society forward into the next level of spiritual consciousness? can this forum be viewed as a microcosm of how extended knowledge of socionics could play out? what is our capacity for self analysis at the group level?

[Joy]

I was thinking about what things might be like if the general population understood Socionics and everyone knew their and everyone else's types... how the cliques in schools and work places may form differently, how people would use their weak functions as an excuse to behave poorly or not try hard or let their health go or whatever, how people may get promoted or assigned to certain jobs depending on their type's trengths and weaknesses, how people may not be willing to try as hard to get along with relatives or neighbors based on intertype relations, etc.

On the bright side, dating would probably become a little bit easier.

[Joy]

And imagine what could happen in world politics is countries really did have types!

[Expat]

On the bright side, dating would probably become a little bit easier.

Yes, as in "look, you don't need to give me Fe. Give me Te".
"ah okay -- the issue is that I can see your weak Se. It's not enough for me".
"Okay, this shows that you don't value Ne as much as I had hoped".

[Ezra]

On the bright side, dating would probably become a little bit easier.

Any dating magazines or online tests (if socionists found a way to find your socionics type) of dating sites and that kind of thing might pick up on it, and that would definitely be a positive leap for the socionics world.

[Creepy-bg]

On the bright side, dating would probably become a little bit easier.

Yes, as in "look, you don't need to give me Fe. Give me Te".
"ah okay -- the issue is that I can see your weak Se. It's not enough for me".
"Okay, this shows that you don't value Ne as much as I had hoped".

I'd be so ready to do it after that kind of sexy talk!

[Ezra]

Uh, uh, uh, Se! Se! Se! Give me fucking Se! Oh YES!

[Blaze]

On the bright side, dating would probably become a little bit easier.

Yes, as in "look, you don't need to give me Fe. Give me Te".
"ah okay -- the issue is that I can see your weak Se. It's not enough for me".
"Okay, this shows that you don't value Ne as much as I had hoped".

funny....infp man and i are trying to figure out how important our dual seeking functions are right now....

[Slacker]

We'd probably see ads specifically made to appeal to different types. Although there's a lot of that already, they just don't call it "socionics". They have other names for advertising to specific groups of people, including people who have similar personalities.

I suppose there might be more personality testing during the hiring process of major corporations, but there's already quite a bit. I think it would probably be better than it is, because at least at my husband's job they want everyone to be ISFj or some other Gamma type or something. At least if they knew about Socionics they'd see that each type has its own particular assets to bring to an organization and they hopefully wouldn't have an idea that one personality type was the best and the others were undesirable.

Hopefully

[Blaze]

is the key word "hopefully"?

[Joy]

At least if they knew about Socionics they'd see that each type has its own particular assets to bring to an organization and they hopefully wouldn't have an idea that one personality type was the best and the others were undesirable.

or they wouldn't have hired him in the first place

[misutii]

At least if they knew about Socionics they'd see that each type has its own particular assets to bring to an organization and they hopefully wouldn't have an idea that one personality type was the best and the others were undesirable.

or they wouldn't have hired him in the first place

but if they didn't hire him he would have perhaps found a better employer and job more suited to his strengths...

Although if businesses actually put socionics to use I think group interaction would play a larger role than individual type... like imagine 4 ESTps working together to accomplish something in a group... now imagine an ESTp, ISTj, ENFj, INFp...

a business that used socionics properly would theoretically see their productivity rate flourish. Sure some people wouldn't be able to get a job they feel they're qualified for, but if that job entails that they are going to end up working with someone they actually despise for 8 hours a day then maybe it's to their benefit.

of course I'm talking about large scale corporations seeking long-term employees...

[Animal]

The danger is this: The world, sex, business, people in general... are all much more complicated than Socionics.

[tcaudilllg]

T's need socionics, F's don't. Strong F in particular seems to have an "ultimate version" of socionics built in: for all intents and purposes, socionics is T trying to understand F. F's only need to understand socionics in as much as it can help them explain their insights to T in a way T will accept.

Socionics will always be behind F in the understanding of person and psyche, however T will always need F to successfully navigate around that which socionics/other psychology theories has not yet explored. For this reason, I think that all strong T's should be aware of socionics.

[Blaze]

T's need socionics, F's don't. Strong F in particular seems to have an "ultimate version" of socionics built in: for all intents and purposes, socionics is T trying to understand F. F's only need to understand socionics in as much as it can help them explain their insights to T in a way T will accept.

Socionics will always be behind F in the understanding of person and psyche, however T will always need F to successfully navigate around that which socionics/other psychology theories has not yet explored. For this reason, I think that all strong T's should be aware of socionics.

i actually agree with this.

[Expat]

I also agree, with one caveat -- feeling types often think - or "feel", heh - that they "get" other people, when they actually don't. Delta NFs, in particular, often make the mistake that Beta NFs are driven by the same motivations as themselves, especially when not knowing them very well. My EII friend is particularly helpless at this.

[Blaze]

I also agree, with one caveat -- feeling types often think - or "feel", heh - that they "get" other people, when they actually don't. Delta NFs, in particular, often make the mistake that Beta NFs are driven by the same motivations as themselves, especially when not knowing them very well. My EII friend is particularly helpless at this.

i agree with this too. i've seen it.

[tcaudilllg]

I also agree, with one caveat -- feeling types often think - or "feel", heh - that they "get" other people, when they actually don't. Delta NFs, in particular, often make the mistake that Beta NFs are driven by the same motivations as themselves, especially when not knowing them very well. My EII friend is particularly helpless at this.

Yes, well, each F only sees half of the full socionics concept. Fe sees the internal "type" half, and Fi sees the relational half. Obviously that's a simplification... I guess the point is, that sooner or later awareness of the substance behind socionics is going to naturally trickle into their minds, bit by bit, day by day. They are naturally searching for the substance of the socion, finding it in obscure places and silently interweaving it into the artistic literature of our time. (Chibi is a case in point.) Although we consider the socion as an abstract entity, there are concrete instances of it all around us. F can look at how a person is coping with the problems they face in life, and deduce from that which they choose to prioritize -- and that which they try to ignore or avoid -- the existence of an internal differentiation process. Treating the intuitive substance of this process as a determinant of the person's choices, F creates an internal idea of a personality which is capable of responding to basically anything thrown its way in a manner that F can usually make reasonable sense of; effectly, giving life to imaginary character.

[Blaze]

well tcaud, your original post drew attention to the fact that F types can see relationships between people rather easily.

then expat says yeah but they don't understand the opposing F types, also true.

but that still does not negate the fact that F types as a whole understand relationships between people better than T people.

[liveandletlive]

haha good thread! a few things that come to mind...

On the bright side, dating would probably become a little bit easier.

Yes, as in "look, you don't need to give me Fe. Give me Te".
"ah okay -- the issue is that I can see your weak Se. It's not enough for me".
"Okay, this shows that you don't value Ne as much as I had hoped".

Related to Expat's post but not necessarily related to the topic of the thread... i've been thinking about if/when i have kids to bring socionics into their lives from early on. i mean they say that languages are best to learn the sooner the better so why not socionics? Haha i can picture what a sibling fight may be... "Mooooooooommmmmmmmm! Billy insulted my PoLR again!" Mom: "Now Billy, you know you shouldn't do that to your sister..." or if a kid does something bad and needs to sit in the corner to think about what he did going back to him after a few minutes and be like "Ok so let's do a functional analysis on why you did that so you learn not to do that again.."

for some reason though i can picture my kids' teacher calling me and saying my kids are crazy and are talking about E-P this, and that...

[munenori2]

I also agree, with one caveat -- feeling types often think - or "feel", heh - that they "get" other people, when they actually don't. Delta NFs, in particular, often make the mistake that Beta NFs are driven by the same motivations as themselves, especially when not knowing them very well. My EII friend is particularly helpless at this.

Yes, well, each F only sees half of the full socionics concept. Fe sees the internal "type" half, and Fi sees the relational half. Obviously that's a simplification... I guess the point is, that sooner or later awareness of the substance behind socionics is going to naturally trickle into their minds, bit by bit, day by day. They are naturally searching for the substance of the socion, finding it in obscure places and silently interweaving it into the artistic literature of our time. (Chibi is a case in point.) Although we consider the socion as an abstract entity, there are concrete instances of it all around us. F can look at how a person is coping with the problems they face in life, and deduce from that which they choose to prioritize -- and that which they try to ignore or avoid -- the existence of an internal differentiation process. Treating the intuitive substance of this process as a determinant of the person's choices, F creates an internal idea of a personality which is capable of responding to basically anything thrown its way in a manner that F can usually make reasonable sense of; effectly, giving life to imaginary character.

Hehe, combine these two posts and I think we've actually gotten a pretty good view of things. On the one hand we have got that feeling types get people more easily (or are at least more naturally inclined to do so) as well as the shortcomings of this perspective (thinking you know people when you, in fact, are mistaken, particularly with people that operate similarly only with different motivations). I empathize quite a bit with the spirit of Tcaud's description here. I wonder if the Fi dominant aspect (though I suppose I should constrain myself to NF, or even the particulars of my type really) doesn't try to make this kind of sense of people, sort of as a natural pull to the psychologies/personalities of others. Well, idk, I think I'm doing a pretty piss-poor job of explaining what I mean right now (funny how you thinking types seem to have done a better job at it, eh), though I suppose drinking doesn't help my cause. I really will have to give this some thought though, because I think you've both hit on something pretty substantial.

[UDP]

I also agree, with one caveat -- feeling types often think - or "feel", heh - that they "get" other people, when they actually don't. Delta NFs, in particular, often make the mistake that Beta NFs are driven by the same motivations as themselves, especially when not knowing them very well. My EII friend is particularly helpless at this.

i agree with this too. i've seen it.

I've experienced it directly - it happened just last week, in real life, with an EII.