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Thread: Ne and Ni, you and I?

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    Default Ne and Ni, you and I?

    Ok, this is a major challenge, but here's my quick investigation into the differences between Ne and Ni.

    Intuition, what is intuition? One of the most useful dictionary definitions goes as follows:

    3 : the power or faculty of gaining direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference.

    We can kind of stretch "cognition" to mean "formation of ideas", and "formation of ideas" to also include entertained possibilities and impressions. So the function of "intuition" could mean the immediate impressions/possibilities examined in the mind. Now, to investigate the difference between "introverted" and "extraverted" intuition, I will first need to know what the essential difference is between an introverted and extraverted function.

    Functions used in an "extraverted" way have a here and now quality to them, functions used in an "introverted" way have a past, future, or timeless quality to them, and are _less_ here and now. Introverted functions are focused more towards the self, and extraverted functions focusing more outside the self into the real world.

    As an introvert, one of the most obvious differences I can think of between me and someone who seems to be more extraverted than myself is their focus on the present, where as my focus is much more often on the past or future. The extraverts would argue that I place too much emphasis (or waste way too much time) on the past, and I could argue that extraverts don't exhibit the same interest of how the past affects the future, or possess the same "sentimentality" I have towards past events. With this in mind we can start to paint the differences between extraverted and introverted intuition.

    "Introverted" intuition is an intuition (see original definition of intuition) that theoretically should have A. a past, future, or timeless quality to it, and B. a greater focus towards the self. That being said, it makes sense that introverted intuition is defined as having two qualities in particular, one being the entertaining of perspectives and the other being a sense for the future. A perspective is a kind of impression, or a point of view that is timeless in nature, and it can be used to examine things from an objective, "timeless" standpoint. As a primary function my hypothesis is that introverted intuitives often deal with their surrounding world by altering or fine-tuning their perspective. I know that personally, I believed very strongly that in order to succeed at something I need only acquire the correct perspective, but nowadays I realize that this in itself is only one of many perspectives.

    A "sense of the future" as mentioned in many descriptions, could be the "entertaining of possibilities" that in the introverted way take on a past and future quality.

    The focus towards the self is obvious, introverted intuitions deal less with the real world and tend to take on a more theoretical nature, and behaviorally, according to most type descriptions, I think it is safe to say that introverted intuitives are less likely than extraverted intuitives to be acting on their impressions in the real world.

    "Extraverted" intuition is an intuition (again see original definition) that theoretically should have A. a more "here and now" quality to it, and B. a greater focus outside the self in the real world. Extraverted Intuition uses perspectives less (because perspectives have a past/future type quality to them, and are less concrete and more theoretical), and instead places a greater emphasis on the possibilities/ideas that exist in the present/real world. Also, Extraverted Intuitives seem to act on their intuitions much more often.

    It's important to note that, Ni is definitely not "better" than Ne or vice versa. The extraverted intuitive might entertain an immediate real world possibility that the introverted intuitive overlooked because he or she's head was in space looking for a grand perspective on the matter (this has happened to me a lot with ENFp types). Where as, perhaps empowered by a new perspective, the introverted intuitive could open the door to a world of possibilities the extraverted intuitive would not have normally found.

    -Labyrinth
    INTp

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    An intriguing encapsulation of the difference that I read somewhere is that Ne is an "intuition of potentiality" whereas Ni is an "intution of time". Ne seems to latch onto the possible. It cares mostly whether or not something could exist or be done. Ni is perhaps more wary of the personal costs involved.

    I think that questions of this nature though are very difficult or impossible to reason out, and simply have to be perceived for oneself. That is why I believe that the greatest utility of this board would be either 1) to post video snippets of certain types interacting in a natural way, along with an explanation of their behavior or barring that 2) to type well known personalities along with a detailed explanation of the type's influence on their work.

    As for the "timeless" quality of Ni that you mention, some film and video examples spring to mind: Twilight Zone (Rod Sterling ENTJ), the movie Safe (Tod Haynes ENTJ). But I wouldn't so much say timeless as outside of time. Ni actually strikes me as more present than Ne. ENTP is the mad scientist, whereas INTP can have incredible focus in the moment...

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    BTW, I really like your description of Ni and perspectives. So although Ne can focus on an interesting point in time, Ni can shift the entire timeline itself by looking at it in a new way... Intriguing. I am coveteous.

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    I'll read this over more carefully later. My English isn'y good enough to understand evrithing at once. But let's imagine, that ENTP and INTp are watching the same thing. What could ENTP see and, what does INTP see?

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    I'll read this over more carefully later. My English isn'y good enough to understand evrithing at once. But let's imagine, that ENTP and INTp are watching the same thing. What could ENTP see and, what does INTP see?
    Well, say the INTp and the ENTp are both watching a duck. The INTp sees the duck, but the ENTp has terrible vision and has forgotten his glasses, so he sees a walking change purse. Err, maybe this is just a fancy way to say that I don't quite understand the question?

    -Labyrinth
    INTp

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    I meant. Two types use their leading function to solve the same task. What are the differences?

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    I'm watching this topic - it's not as though I haven't been looking over the forums for the past few days. I'm waiting to see Labyrinth's answer for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by kaido21
    Two types use their leading function to solve the same task. What are the differences?

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    Carry on and answer kaido21's question. I didn't plan on interrupting this topic, but I just got hold of my ESFx and he's given some thoughts.

    (BTW Labyrinth, can you please not start other posts on this matter? I've now got three posts about determining my personality and, quite frankly, I don't know where to put some of my thoughts.)

    Right - firstly, I talked about the differences between INTj and ISTp, and gave him this list:

    INTJ
    Very confident in logical abilities
    To be confident in logical abilities they often wish to become experts in one narrow speciality
    The more far-fetched this speciality is the better

    ISTP
    Very sensitive to all negative sensations
    Can solve most practical problems that arise
    Independently-minded and can take care of themselves
    Interested in practical applications of knowledge, and a disinterest in irrelevant theories

    He said ISTp.


    I gave him the Quadra values:

    ALPHA
    Absolute freedom in making choices, there are no right and wrong ones. Comfort, emotional animation.
    Humanism, joie de vivre, unity with the space, experiment, new rules, reformation.
    Expect positive emotions from their associates, comfortable relations, childish joy.
    It’s interesting to invent and not to introduce into practice.
    Motto: “Not here, not now”.

    BETA
    Strictness and will, justice. Clear understanding of hierarchy.
    Motto: “Now but not here”.

    GAMMA
    Tempest and onslaught, reorganization. Members wait for timely support in business and lively relations of equality.
    Motto: “Now and here”.

    DELTA
    Respect and hierarchy, everyone should do what they can do best and want to do.
    Cordiality of home, unity with nature.
    Motto: “Here but not now”. (“Here and forever”)

    He said Delta suited me best. In second place was Beta. This brings up the possibility of ISTj, which is far-fetched, but may be an idea. It also adds to the idea of ISTp.


    Thirdly, I asked him to choose between these two:

    INTROVERTED INTUITION
    Focus on past or future
    Greater focus towards self
    Entertains possibilities
    Sense for the future
    A kind of impression, or a point of view that is timeless and can be used to examine things objectively
    Deals with surrounding world by altering or fine-tuning their perspective
    However, more “present” and a type with this function can have an incredible focus on the moment

    EXTROVERTED INTUITION
    “Here and now” quality
    Greater focus towards self in real world
    More likely to act on the impressions they get from the world
    Great emphasis on possibilities/ideas in the present world, and less emphasis on perspectives in the past or future
    However, less “present” and a type with this function can be the absentminded scientist

    He said, very definitely, Ni.

    Thoughts?

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    Maybe I can answer this 'duck' question. If, perhaps, both an Ni and Ne are watching a duck, the Ni would focus more on the actions of the duck, and thus become mesmerized by the way it moves in the lake and how it affects its environment. The Ne, on the other hand, would see the duck as an integral part of its environment, and thus attempt to extrapolate possibilities, or reactions, from the duck. He might call to the duck, throw a rock at the duck, or do something else in order to get a reaction out of it. Eventually, he would bore with it and chase after some other object in the environment, such as a group of pigeons pecking at the ground, often running through them just to see them scatter. The Ni would continue to watch the duck, thinking of the Ne as too flighty or carefree, although the Ni suffers from the same lack of concentration as the Ne, only it is of a more introverted form. After a minute or so, the Ni will become distracted by some thought or image, and thus fall into a blank stare, continuing to look at the duck, yet his thoughts are elsewhere. An Ni can seemingly look mesmerized by an object, as in the duck, and stand there staring at it for quite a long time. The Ne becomes confused by this mesmerization and leaves the Ni to continue with his wonder and amazement of the duck. Yet, the irony is that the Ni's thoughts in no way, shape, or form resemble that of a duck.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Tanzhe, I agree wholeheartedly with your descriptions of both Ni and Ne, except on one thing in Ni:

    However, more “present” and a type with this function can have an incredible focus on the moment.
    Absolutely not. Just because an Ni can stare at something for over an hour at a time (ok, maybe not that long,) that does NOT mean that they have watched it intensely, marking everything down. Ni tends to become easily distracted after a minute or so, yet it is a distraction of thoughts or images (a more subjective distraction.) Thus, they continue to stare straight ahead, seemingly mesmerized by the moment. However, their thoughts have no bearing on that moment. They are just as absent-minded as any Ne. For example, an INTp is a horrible listener. He may easily be able to grasp the main idea, yet the details of the conversation or monologue are foreign to him, although he may remember some of the small, insignificant details that no other type picked up on. Ironically, however, people still think an INTp is a great listener, simply because he can listen to a long, drawn out monologue and, even though he's not paying attention, can subconciously pick up the main ideas and come back to the moment if Ni feels that a response is going to be wanted from the speaker. And here's some more irony: I'm not quite sure on this, but my observations of a supposed ENTp indicate that they have an incredible focus of the moment. This supposed ENTp can read a page of a book in less than a minute and, if asked to summarize his readings, can accurately describe every detail of that page. But I could be wrong on his type. Please be wary of this.

    And another thing: INTjs have a much better concentration than INTps, and I've even heard that INTjs have the best power of concentration of all the types. From what I've seen, INTjs take tests much more quickly than INTps, where INTjs usually finish among the first and INTps usually finish dead last. At least that's how it is for me.

    Your Quasi-Identical INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Oh, yes, and about your question, Tanzhe. Let me try and prove that you are an INTj.

    First off, there is no way you are an ISTp. No self-respecting ISTp would sit here on a forum discussing what his type may be. They are quite mentally lazy, and have barely any interest in the discussions of the internet. Besides, ISTps act like know-it-alls and would have made up their minds on their types long ago.

    For your first point, INTjs often put off an air of ISTps, because an ISTp's dominant is an INTj's hidden agenda, thus they show alot of the protective and practical aspects of ISTps. My cousin is an INTj who, for the longest time, I thought was an ISTp. He shows the same characteristics as you do, Tanzhe, which may be explained in that INTjs often do not divulge their private lives to others. To tell you the truth, I've always seen my cousin as a simple-minded person who has no bearing on the theoretical aspects of life. He almost never talks of theories or abstractions, which led me to believe that he has no inner life. Boy was I wrong. It wasn't until he took the Socionics Type Assistant that I found out his true INTj type. Plus, I've confirmed his type through VI, so we know what it is. Your ESFx friend is probably having the same problems that I had. Oh, and also, if your ESFx friend is so willing to work with you on this (I wish I had a friend like that!), that may indicate that the 'x' is in fact a 'j', which would indicate a dual pair. If it wasn't a dual pair, you guys would probably not be discussing this.

    Secondly, the quadrables. INTjs have that strong sense of justice and mental and logical order. Plus, they are often optimistic of others' dreams. They use to encourage others to their goals and help them realize that goal. This could be applied to both Delta and Alpha quadrables.

    Thirdly, vs. : since takes a back seat in an INTj, being the auxiliary function, it tends to take on the characteristics of . It's function is to expand upon what Introverted Thinking has already figured out. INTjs tend to be very focused (and it's not just a false impression like it is with Ni), they look at a problem from many perspectives, and they're usually either past or future oriented. Because Ne is the auxiliary, it takes on a mask of the dominant introvertedness. So, actually, for an INTj, Ne kind of acts both ways.

    I really hoped that cleared up some stuff for you. Oh, and be sure to check your previous thread, INTj or INTp?, because I started to write this huge description of the differences between the two. It's not up yet, I still have to finish it, but after 5 hours of typing, I'm going to bed.

    Your Quasi-Identical INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaido21
    Your pic is bad, but my V.I say, that you are ENTp. You have the forehead of the Ns. S are little bit serious, Ns forehead looks, like they take everithing more easy. Your cheaks are pale, Fs have more merriness in their lips and cheeks. Ts cheeks and lips look as they are in thought. Your eyes are Es. Es have courage ,when looking. Is eyes are little bit shy and more in orbit. Your neck is P. Ps (irrationals) have long necks, Js (rationals) have strong neck. Ns olso look in live ,like they ara trieng to be at everiwhere.Their gate is as if they are flieng. S move self-confidently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Note the chin and wideness of the face. INTjs often have a rounded face with a small distance between the mouth and chin. Also, the chin is usually pointed outward to form a kind of ball-chin, if I may use such a term. Plus, the eyes look subdued and blank, and the eyebrows are widely-spaced and quite thin and faded, all characteristic of INTjs.

    OK, first off is that INTjs often have a rounded face with a small distance between the chin and mouth. I would say that my face has roughly similar proportions to MysticSonic's, although mine is longer. This means that it looks slimmer and more 'streamlined', I think someone said.

    I don't have a ball-chin. My eyes aren't blank - they are focussed, animated and "normal" (said my resident ESFx). My eyebrows aren't thin and faded. They have perhaps similar thicknesses to MysticSonic's, although I am blonde and so that could affect how much they stand out on my pale face. But my eyebrows aren't widely spaced - left to grow naturally and they almost join in the middle. The "join" that bridges the two eyebrows, when left naturally, if like thinly-spread and soft stubble.

    I can't really say much about my chin, or about kaido21's comments. But I can say that I move in a self-assured manner. My gait is slow and steady, but confident. However, I am not sure whether this is my natural gait or whether this self-confidence is brought about by my studying martial arts.


    Now, I'd like to mention a thought that has come to me after writing this. I am unsure about what my actual personality is, but not in a Socionics sense. Let me explain.

    When I was a kid, I was lively, energetic and caring. I was mature and I had only a few (but close) friends. I had a strong sense of justice. I was quite intelligent, in the upper tenth (or even twentieth) of my class academically. I was also ran about a lot in the playground, although I wasn't good at some sports such as football.

    Then I went to secondary school and I got a very hard lesson in society, where I was alienated due to loads of different things about me that I hadn't even recognised as weird or perhaps a little odd. It was mainly my maturity, lack of understanding about teenage social norms and different moral/social/ethical/intellectual etc. values, coupled with a lack of understanding from the other pupils.

    Another factor is that I was very interested in science-fiction at this time. I was actively researching the science and theory behind the futuristic technology, and this probably made me more intellectually-orientated than might have been natural (for me). I'm not sure, but I did spend a lot of time researching for my own science-fiction "books".

    Then I saw introverted kids, quiet and intelligent, who got on with the others, who were friends with the other pupils. I suppose I envied them, and so I copied them. I was also copying various characters in the media, who were very self-controlled. I didn't try to be quieter - I actually tried to suppress all emotion (futile, I know, but I tried anyway).

    I came across personality testing, including MBTI and other, more casual tests. Through my desire to be unemotional, I frequently tested as the cold, calculating, solitary type on the casual quizzes. On MBTI I tested as an INTJ. I think that this, together with a growing interest in mathematics due largely to having an excellent teacher, made me imitate the intellectual personality.

    But now I've changed. I have a balance between academia and physical activity. I don't control my emotions, I let them free, and I am now quiet naturally. I am much more self-confident, and I now no longer have someone to copy. I am now much more laid-back and accepting, and much more educated about social norms. I now have a teacher in mathematics who doesn't suit me, and my interest in maths has gone - this shows that I was never destined for mathematics because, if I was, then I would have stayed interested in it regardless of the teacher.

    The trouble is, with all these changes, where can I find my true personality, after all these changes? I've had an interest in science-fiction and a growing interest in mathematics, with I believe probably turned me towards the intellectual orientation. The imitation of cold people, and also intellectuals, perhaps aggravated the problem.


    Do you have any thoughts on either of the sections?

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    Wow... you sound exactly like how I was in high school. I had the same misunderstanding but it was compounded with being a different race than almost everyone at my school (I am of mixed race but I look white over 95% of my school was latin/asian and this isolates you more than you would think because people assume things about you that they wouldn't if you shared their race). Periodically I would promise myself that I wouldn't talk to anyone at school that day which further increased the isolation. I defintely practiced extreme emotional control I viewed everything emotional as illogical and despised it. This got to the point where if I felt anything I would tell myself how unjust it was because if the same thing happened to another person I wouldn't care so why should I care if it happened to me? I imitated people I guess to a certain degree as well. Whenever I read a book with a very stoic character in it I would relate to him and try to be like him. I was fascinated with the stoics and the spartans for their mastery over their bodies. When I read Frankenstein I felt assured that for some people life was just a process of loneliness and misery that ended in eventual death. Can I ask what led to you changing?

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    "Fascinated with stoics and spartans" - pretty much the same for me (or is it "was the same for me"?). But this inclination to copy others has now almost died down. I am now a calm, balanced type of person, but I am certainly not cold. "Stoic" implies a sort of calmness for me, but if you think it means someone who is not too bothered with anything I'm not sure. "Spartan" is a word describing my ideal life - for example, I have loads of unwanted books in my bedroom, and I want to get rid of them, but them wouldn't have anywhere to go. "Spartan" also, for me, gives me a way of life, about not being controlled by sensation and also rigorous training and conditioning.

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    As for what lead me to change [to my current self], it was mainly martial arts. As I mentioned, there is a certain "alchemy" of martial arts that eventually creates a certain personality. Part of this personality is compassion, and an ability to spread this into the environment. So, I now more model myself on the true Martial Artist, although I think one or two other people/fictional characters are still in me, maybe through habit or maybe through conscious thought. It's difficult to describe.

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    What I mean by stoic is someone who is able to administer his talents as needed. Someone who flows, whose entire faculties are guided by will like Nietzsche's Zarathustra. Also, I know what you mean by people inside you but the way I look at it the person is merely an amalgamation of the personalities he encounters interpreted by type. I must not mislead you though Tanzhe I had many conversations like this with my INTP friend and he said similar things to what you are saying now so I honestly do not know your type. Also, as I said earlier I don't "copy" others at least intentionally. In my mind copying implies subservience to an outside authority. I see it more as discovering the idea of an action and participating in it (kind of like Plato's forms).

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    You know, the discussion over my type has been ongoing for quite a while. I've actually let it roll on, because I decided that my initial type (INTj) was reached rather too hastily, and I was over-eager. So now I've taken my time, and we've thoroughly discussed the intricacies of INTjs and INTps. We've also touched upon ISTjs and ISTps.

    The trouble is, everyone's started to run out of ideas. I am too. I keep on repeating myself, asking for more information, and people now (obviously) have little more to contribute.

    Now, several things have crossed my mind.

    Firstly, I took a casual test called "What obsolete skill are you?" My result was this:

    You are “growing one's own food”. You are guided by two words: “Live simply”. You value quality over quantity in most things, and you have little use for the materialism and consumerism of modern culture. You know the value of hard work and try to be self-sufficient as much as possible, and what you do you do well. Unfortunately, no man is an island, and you cannot do everything yourself. Your puritanical work ethic makes people think that you are weird, and not much fun. Your problem is that growing one's own food has been obsolete for a long time.

    This result was really quite puzzling. I am an intellectual, or highly intelligent. Thus, how can I live simply? I would need constant intellectual stimulation. The idea of being an ancient Chinese or Japanese or Okinawan peasant or monk appeals quite a bit to me - the words sound right to my ears. But, if I was in that life, since I am an intellectual, wouldn't I grow bored and frustrated quickly? Then again, one could argue that anyone would find the life of a monk or of a peasant quite boring, since they are mundane tasks.

    This is basically a question over whether I am a "true" intellectual, an intellectual "by nature", or whether I have been tricked into thinking that I am through MBTI, copying certain intellectuals, a good maths teacher and an interest in science fiction. I know that I am highly intelligent, at least. In school, I am probably in the Top Ten Most Intelligent People in my year of approximately two hundred. (Or Top Thirty, I'm not really sure.)

    I can't turn to my experiences in life before MBTI/maths teacher/science fiction. I was then very interested in a career in the services (ie. military), due mainly to a person close to me (my resident ESFx) who was in the services. But, suddenly, we had a little talk and he said that the services were probably not for me because he thought that it wouldn't provide enough intellectual stimulation for me.

    It's really quite puzzling. I can't be sure that I am an intellectual. I can't be sure that I am not intellectual. My apparent "intelligence" must have some substance because I am quite intelligent, BUT you must understand that I have a very good memory, that I put in a lot of effort to my schoolwork, I am very obedient and I work well in the school environment. This may contribute to me doing well at school. Plus, when I started school, I quickly applied methods that motivated me to work and seem to have become natural - this could also be a factor. Added to that, my interest in science fiction may have provided the intellectual stimulation for my mind to grow, but perhaps it resulted in my intelligence growing beyond what is natural for me? It's difficult to explain that last point in words, but hopefully you'll get my gist.

    As you can see, it seems a difficult situation. Hmm...


    Secondly, I would have thought now that my type would have been apparent, after so much discussion. But it isn't. Something's wrong, and I think that I may even be on the wrong track. When I first posted on these forums, I said:

    Through Socionics I have got narrowed my type down to three types; INTj, ISTj and INTp. But I’m not quite sure how to finally prove, beyond reasonable doubt, my type. It seems simple but, on closer scrutiny, then problem becomes more complicated, and seems to even become something of a riddle.

    Now, I can't remember exactly what happened, but I do know that I entered Socionics having identified myself as an MBTI INTJ. This could have biased me. My true type could well be a Feeling type, or an Extrovert, and possibly even a Sensor (the J-P scale isn't mentioned here because we haven't determined it). I'm concerned that we are barking up the wrong tree, or have been barking up the wrong tree.


    Now, I am really sorry that this has dragged on as long as it has. I can half-imagine you groaning and saying, "Oh no, Tanzhe's got more doubts," or "Why can't Tanzhe just make a decision?" or "Not Tanzhe again." Again, I'm sorry. But I think that it would be good to go over these points to specify a few things.

    Any thoughts on either of the points raised?

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    Default I'm think you're an INTp

    your consideration over the feelings of others leads me to believe you are an INTp.with the apologizing and what not.

    While reading the previous post I began imagining a narration by an old INTp instructor I once had. you seem very gradual pleasant to listen to.

    your nature of writing leaves a Ne impression on the reader(a more spacial connotations, very imaginative), which is supported by rather than dominated by Ti.

    i'm not going to overanalyze but you really seem like an INTp to me .

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    Let's be honest here Tanzhe no matter what we say you're not going to be satisfied, so do what I told you earlier just ignore socionics for awhile and when you come back to it you will be refreshed and have new data to work with. You are going to stagnate in inaction if you keep this up you need more life experiences then you will have more data to analyze. Remember this no matter what you THINK you are your actions will reveal who you really are. Don't look at the specific situation (ie don't try to determine whether your preference for beautiful derrieres makes you an INTP or an INTJ ) live your life come back after six months or so and if you are intuitive you should see the pattern in your behavior that I fondly refer to as type. Anyway, just my $0.02.

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    Default Thy Abode. O wandering Mind!

    In the long course of history man has walked many a path, asking and wondering, searching and looking, and yes, crying and yelling, with divine patience as much as with frantic fervor, seeking wisdom and answers to the ultimate questions keeping him up at night, striking him in broad daylight - but woe thee worm of the earth - to what avail all thy toil? For when the wind has passed over it, it is no more, And its place acknowledges it no longer.

    The deepest reasons, beyond all the reasons man can reason, guiding us on our jouyrney, from dawn to dusk, on days of sunshine and on days of rain, leading us on the path we so confidently step on, are at the end of the road, perhaps more often than we dare look in the dire face of our innermost beings, shrouded in mist and mystery, and however confident we may feel boldly unveiling the holy shroud of our conscious minds, the feeble explanations we come up with may well be little more than post hoc rationalizations to justify the compelling force of our wild animal instincts. Perhaps then true wisdom is not to be found in the words of the far-seeing prophet, who seeking to unravel the riddles of heaven and earth only stumbles and falls at the altar of the dark forces of his subconscious drives - but rather in the humble words of Tanzhe who is not ashamed to admit the limits of his knowledge in the face of the greatest mystery of them all. The riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma - known to us as life.



    In other words Tanzhe: I think that at this stage it might be better to let the issue of your type rest for some time. The answer will come eventually, it always will. The penultimate test, before the day of reckoning unravels all the mysteries of our earthly wandering, could be which type is you Benefactor. You fall that hard for one type and one type only. Just try to learn to type others so maybe one day you will not conflate ISTJs and INFPs like I did with ISFJs and INTPs.


    When I find myself in times of trouble,
    Mother Mary comes to me
    Speaking words of wisdom, let it be
    And in my hour of darkness
    She is standing right in front of me
    Speaking words of wisdom, let it be
    Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be
    Whisper words of wisdom, let it be

    http://persweb.direct.ca/fstringe/oz/w9984.html

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    Well, yes, I agree with Pedro-the-Lion, but before you leave, I just want to say something about the Id functions (7-8).

    For an INTj, his Id functions are and , Personal Knowledge and Concrete Art respectively. Te may manifest itself in the collection of a vast store of known facts, especially word usage. Thus, INTjs use this knowledge to point out misuses of terms, definitions, theoretical facts, etc., and it can make them look like smartasses and arrogant pricks (Personal Knowledge thing.) Last Thursday, I went with a group of five people to a Math Day at a certain college, and there was this kid there who corrected the teacher a few times for certain inaccuracies (must have been an INTj; he had the INTj face.) Also, this may manifest itself into a very strong sense of justice.

    Ni may show itself in that it curses the INTj (and INFj) with constant doubts about decisions. They see so much, yet they can't accurately sort through it all and make a quick decision (like an INTp can supposedly do.) Thus, they flounder around forever trying to think of what to do. My INFj friend takes forever to make a decision and get moving. Also, he often overprepares for simple events and tasks, like taking everything but the kitchen sink on a camping trip. An INTp will use his Ni to anticipate not what to take, but rather what not to take. Thus, INTps generally barely prepare for anything, rather they like to just "go with the flow." (a 'P' attitude)

    Also, it seems to me that INTjs and ISTjs are very self-centered intentionally, but maybe that's just me.

    Your Quasi-Identical INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    I mean this with all sincerety- Curious Soul, those were some very moving words you wrote. You deserve to be applauded.

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    Creepy-

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    Said the ENTP to the INFJ

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    To Cone: yes, I do have a good memory for facts BUT I don't point out all of the mistakes a teacher makes. I know that it gets annoying to listen to. Usually, if I correct him/her, it's to ensure that I get the right information. I'm not sure about the Ni thing that you mentioned, because I do prepare a lot but that could be a rational behaviour and not a sign of Ni in the 8th function.


    Well, OK then. I'll give Socionics a rest for now. I don't know how long I'll give it a rest for, or if I'll keep browsing these forums and occassionally posting while still giving it a rest. I'm not sure. But thanks anyway for your perserverence and effort, and for being constructive, thoughtful and polite posters.

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    Oh, and good look to SFVB about correcting the INTJ uncovered. Hope it goes well, and good luck to anybody else thinking of doing an uncovered.

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    Default Uncovering...

    I thought about writing an INFJ uncovered but now I am rather inclined to give up the idea because, frankly, I would just end up writing about myself. The NF types especially also seem to me exhibit a lot of variation, some INFJs are highly sociable and others overtly sensitive and withdrawn. I am rather too inclined towards the latter end of the spectrum. Then there are differences between the sexes, generally it would seem to be much easier to be a female INFJ, but of course we would need to get some feedback from the other sex.

    I suppose I am not the only one who would dearly like to have some ladies writing on this Forum, but would anyone have any ideas how to attract a few? In theory one would imagine that this kind of psychological stuff could interest females, but since Pearl80 left us they are nowhere to be seen.

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    I do not think that me posting will produce anything, but I would like to add that I managed to get two female INFj’s interested in socionics. But of course like most people, they both have other things to be worried about. I will see if I can get one of the INFj’s more interested, but I do not see it happening.

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    Post pictures of our studly selves? Not in our underwear looking at our butts though I hope

    But on a more serious level I honestly have no idea. Also, I think NFs are are not that varied they just don't like to be pigeon-holed so they see these grand dramatic images of themselves that do not exist to anyone else. Anyway, there are a lot of apparent NFs here but I have given up trying to "convert" NFs unless I can show them personally that what they think is one type is in fact something completely different. Thank goodness my INFJ friend never heard of MBTI when I talked to her about socionics. NFs can be super stubborn once they've "learned" something. The fact that they often associate various negative and positive traits with particular types helps reinforce their presuppositions because "all ESTPs are bastards" after all. Ugh...

  29. #29
    Creepy-monica

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    Hi.

    I'm a female INFJ. I usually go by the name "Chosen" but I decided to change it. I'm new to socionics so I haven't posted much here.

    And by the way, I'm one of the more sociable INFJS...but I can also be very sensitive and withdrawn. But I try to act sociable in social situations. lol

  30. #30
    Creepy-INTJ

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    You are certainly my quasi - identical personality type. I could not read the article. ( see www.socionics.com description of quasi identical relationships) Interesting what other types said about this article

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    Are you referring to Tanzhe's INTJ uncovered? And, if you are, are you 100% certain that you are a Socionics INTj?

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    That's part of what I take issue with in the whole +/- debate if you have strong and then you have to explain why no one noticed the strong for so long. It seems a quaint notion to me but unneeded and impractical. In my opinion +/- just shows the ties between certain functions - seems to be tied to + for example.

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    maybe this is why the 6th function "hidden agenda" is "to be healthy"?
    Sorry, but I must tell you about an incident that occurred recently concerning the INFj's hidden agenda:

    My INFj friend is one of those people who can eat anything. Put a pile of glop in front of him and he'll shovel it down, no problem. Also, back in the elementary school days, he would always creatively mix things together to make something very disgusting (like syrup and chocolate milk, other sick stuff that I can't even imagine right now, etc.), and then he would obviously eat it. It seemed as though he could take on any disgusting taste sensation.

    But, take him out of the taste world and he's a helpless little animal in a big city. Blow your nose in front of him and he'll think you're disgusting. Motion the snotty tissue towards him and he'll literally pull out a gun and shoot you with it before you can ever touch him with the tissue. He's huge on hygiene and cleanliness.

    Now take my INTj cousin: completely opposite. He's not one to watch his hygiene, as he can let himself go sometimes, but he's almost hypersensitive to taste. He won't eat anything he doesn't like. Period.


    Your INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Default Re: infj uncovered

    Quote Originally Posted by fever
    to CuriousSoul.....i'm a female infj...but I don't know if it is any easier! being an infj it just seems hard period! I guess other types could be as well just in a different way. I think as a base function is definately a draining both emotionally and physically......maybe this is why the 6th function "hidden agenda" is "to be healthy"?
    Thank You. I was thinking it would be very nice if you could write something on your own, at least at first. I would very much appreciate a "second opinion" on my type, so I could more clearly see what things are likely related to my type and what are just my individual oddities. There is Tanzhe's The Complexities of the Analyst (INTj uncovered)
    http://www.the16types.info/articles.php?article_id=5
    that I quite enjoyed, but perhaps you could take a more free approach, and write about things that come to your mind and may be related to your personality type. Then some opinions on socionics/MBTI differences maybe, do you think other's could recognize you based on Gulenko's INFJ description?
    http://www.socionics.com/prof/infj.htm
    Have your experiences validated the intertype relations, ESTJ dual etc?

    I would also say that better type descriptions are needed because, for example, this classic socionics INFJ description by Igor Weisband sounds in my opinion downright silly:
    His most important capability is his ability to adapt to his partner’s emotions, to empathize, release emotional tension, to calm down. My most important capability??? does not seem to be much in demand... gender issue, partly.
    He is sure that other people need him to be quiet, calm, tranquil. He strives to be something like a "compress" other people can apply to their wounds. This is how INFJ often appear, but does anybody consciously think like this?
    He cannot afford being untidy. Unfortunately not in my case, but this may be a male/female difference, though most certainly not always
    If the smartest interlocutor explains his opinion in the form of speculations, instead of short and resolute formulations, then Dostoyevsky feels permanently dissatisfied and unhappy of being together with him. Does not fit me too well. Anyway these short and resolute formulations... Sounds to me like, do you like your closest ones barking orders at you?
    Most of the rest seems accurate, it is a very feminine type description though.
    http://www.the16types.info/types-INFJ.php

    Quote Originally Posted by fever
    Also, + and - , as the base function....does this mean u have 50/50 chance of using either one at any given time or depending on the situation? Are they of equal strength or do u prefer to use one more often than the other?
    This + Fi - Fe theory is still quite controversial. Some buy it, others do not. You could look at it and see if you agree. If I have understood the theory correctly + Fi should be much stronger for INFJs. It is constantly in use, observing the emotional climate, even when not necessary and thus contributing to INFJs potential internal hypersensitivity. - Fe is more like a passive capability that INFJs can usually do quite well when necessary or feel like it, some more than others. If it does not make sense to you just ignore it and always look at the upper part of the function. Thus INFJs have + Fi as strong receiving Base Function, producing - Ne as Creative Function, + Ti as Fole Function, - Se as Place of Least Resistance. Anyway thinking too much about the functions easily just gets confusing. The functions should emerge quite spontaneously from the "INFJ uncovered", i.e. people with the same type typically have similar strengths and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by fever
    if CuriousSoul still wants to do the infj uncovered, i'd be willing to try add some thoughts to this as well...let me know
    I would be delighted to hear whatever you can contribute.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Sorry, but I must tell you about an incident that occurred recently concerning the INFj's hidden agenda:

    My INFj friend is one of those people who can eat anything. Put a pile of glop in front of him and he'll shovel it down, no problem. Also, back in the elementary school days, he would always creatively mix things together to make something very disgusting (like syrup and chocolate milk, other sick stuff that I can't even imagine right now, etc.), and then he would obviously eat it. It seemed as though he could take on any disgusting taste sensation.

    But, take him out of the taste world and he's a helpless little animal in a big city. Blow your nose in front of him and he'll think you're disgusting. Motion the snotty tissue towards him and he'll literally pull out a gun and shoot you with it before you can ever touch him with the tissue. He's huge on hygiene and cleanliness.

    Now take my INTj cousin: completely opposite. He's not one to watch his hygiene, as he can let himself go sometimes, but he's almost hypersensitive to taste. He won't eat anything he doesn't like. Period.


    Your INTp friend,

    Cone
    OK, now I do believe your friend is INFJ. There are most curious similaritíes, I used to mix milk and orange juice - and other more creative personal food combos. It did not really feel like I was doing anything unusual or personally sensitive, just sometimes others found it a bit strange... maybe also an expression of creative Ne - why not just mix whatever tastes good.
    Hygiene freak too, yet at other times too lazy to clean my room...

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    Exploiting this weakness is what makes INFjs so fun. :wink:
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Then some opinions on socionics/MBTI differences maybe, do you think other's could recognize you based on Gulenko's INFJ description?
    yeah, some of it, but some of these descriptions of infj's are pretty lame and make infj's sound a lot more nice and wussified than they actually are. like,

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    He is sure that other people need him to be quiet, calm, tranquil. He strives to be something like a "compress" other people can apply to their wounds. This is how INFJ often appear, but does anybody consciously think like this?
    i mean a "compress" other people can apply to their wounds...that sounds so pathetic, just that wording.........how about this... you will always find the infj betting on the underdog or fiercely defending those who have been treated unjust....if an infj witnesses this in person, firsthand, it is likely to evoke such anger in them that they will go to great extents with obstinate tenacity to avenge, but their approach may be more indirectly applied but nevertheless just as harmful.

    If the smartest interlocutor explains his opinion in the form of speculations, instead of short and resolute formulations, then Dostoyevsky feels permanently dissatisfied and unhappy of being together with him.
    I completely disagree with this.


    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Have your experiences validated the intertype relations, ESTJ dual etc?
    no i haven't, but the the sound of this type of person sounds like someone I would have absolutly no patience for. I don't have much patience for sensing types because it's hard to get them to think outside the box, past their ever so concrete reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    I was thinking it would be very nice if you could write something on your own, at least at first. I would very much appreciate a "second opinion" on my type, so I could more clearly see what things are likely related to my type and what are just my individual oddities
    ok, i'll have to think on this one......if i do one, i'll probably send it to u first before I post it, or we can compare for accuracy.

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    CuriousSoul wrote:
    Have your experiences validated the intertype relations, ESTJ dual etc?


    no i haven't, but the the sound of this type of person sounds like someone I would have absolutly no patience for. I don't have much patience for sensing types because it's hard to get them to think outside the box, past their ever so concrete reality.
    Oh come on, ESTjs aren't all that bad! I'm actually trying to start a relationship with one (which is awesome, 'cause now I can rub it in my INFj friend's face.)

    Here's what I can tell you about them. There are usually two versions of ESTjs: the workaholics and the lazy asses. The one ESTj I know is a workaholic; she does everything from band to other music to teaching music, basically a music major, she is. The other ESTjs I know, who're all males, are the lazy asses. They're lazy, yet they still take all responsibilities very seriously.

    If you're an INFj male, it's easy to find an ESTj female. Just look for the girl with the dead, emotionless face (sometimes they look like they are frowning when they're relaxed.) They're quite sociable, for the most part. The female ESTj said to me once, "I always feel like I have to socialize with the people around me, you know, introduce myself, learn where they're from, etc. But I don't want to do this; I don't like it, but I can't help it." Here's a prime example of Fe as a role function.

    If you're a female INFj, just look for the moderately sociable guy with the stern look and sure posture. Some of them have quite jerky movements, e.g. a slight convulsion of the neck, causing their head to jerk to one side. They don't like idiots, and they will readily berate anyone who makes a stupid comment (this goes for female ESTjs too.)

    I hope that was all correct.


    Your INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    The weak applicabilities do not always hold. I for one used to do the food mixing thing as does my ENFJ friend. He was always the germaphobe though. I do not like cleaning "dirty" things like toilets, showers, sinks, etc.

    Also, I am glad to hear not all INFJs are pansies please describe this non-wussified beast in great detail. I usually get frustrated with male INFJs because they seem like such wusses. It makes me want to kick their asses. *disengages weak * Anyway, just thought I should throw that in.

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    Default Re: Manly INFJ

    slap on the title "Discourse on Wussiness in the INFJ" and publish that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    (Male) INFJs may feel they "need to do Fe"in order to fit in, thus occasionally creating a sort of "OK, now it is party so let us try to be jolly" impression.
    In which they inexorably fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    "Kicking male INFJs asses" is singularly unlikely to lead to an increase in their self-confidence and improvement in their manliness.
    Yeah I guess I just try to avoid talking to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Generally when talking to male INFJs male INTJs should try to demonstrate their strengths. Logic is appreciated, attemps at emotions may create a somewhat phony impression. Socionics could well interest many a male INFJ...
    Are you suggesting that I actually try to change outcomes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Also, I am glad to hear not all INFJs are pansies please describe this non-wussified beast in great detail. I usually get frustrated with male INFJs because they seem like such wusses. It makes me want to kick their asses. *disengages weak Extraverted Sensing* Anyway, just thought I should throw that in.
    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Anger... sometimes yes, but generally I just try to avoid unethical people. According to socionics descriptions lust for avenge should not be an INFJ trait, but reality and theory do not always seem to coincide. ]
    Quote Originally Posted by fever
    mean a "compress" other people can apply to their wounds...that sounds so pathetic, just that wording.........how about this... you will always find the infj betting on the underdog or fiercely defending those who have been treated unjust....if an infj witnesses this in person, firsthand, it is likely to evoke such anger in them that they will go to great extents with obstinate tenacity to avenge, but their approach may be more indirectly applied but nevertheless just as harmful.
    I guess I was thinking of Mahatma Gandhi when I made this statement but I think it also corresponds with other infj's as well. He used
    to play "on the necessary strings" of the British many times provoking them into doing something which invariably pushed more people into supporting his cause--India's Independence. His hunger strike after he was imprisoned by the British, if he in fact had been allowed to die, would have made international headlines and greatly embarrassed the British at a time when Britain was condemning dictators in Europe. So it is his understanding of , combined with (influence/provocation) and as the 4th function that makes the whole approach quiet, yet loud as the same time, nevertheless influential. So when something is against an infj's beliefs or himself/herself or others have been wronged, I think infj's can be very tenacious to avenge although it may take more of an indirect unyielding approach (via other methods)...this is its way of expressing the weaker . Although, it's an infj's nature to help others, they can
    use their keen understanding of man against man if the situation requires. Infj's gone wrong can be great manipulators, although it is not really their nature, it is possible when pushed to that point, when their game-playing estp shadow sneaks into the scene.
    Maybe Infj's not valuing , it being the 4th function, as much as their strong ones.....does not value violence as sufficient means to get something done, where as (dominant sensing types) would be more likely to use (action-oriented) violence.

    Infj and Intj both have as 4th function so I guess less likely to use violence and more likely to express this weaker through use of their stonger functions. That's why u might find intj's venting anger in other ways also, like writing virus code to take down networks or so on and so forth.

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