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Thread: Question for LIIs-INTjs: do you dislikes SEEs?

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    Default Question for LIIs-INTjs: do you dislikes SEEs?

    Why do you dislike SEEs? Be brutally honest and give examples. What are some criticisms for self-improvement and self-development?
    ESFp-Fi sub
    6w7 sx/so/sp

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    As fun as this could be, do you really think this is a good way of going about self-improvement?

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    Default Re: To you LIIs...

    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    Why do you dislike SEEs? Be brutally honest and give examples. What are some criticisms for self-improvement and self-development?
    I don't dislike or hate them. I do not hate types; I hate individuals who give me reason to dislike them, and those are found amongst all types and not just SEEs. I just am unable to completely see eye-to-eye with them just like they seem to be unable to see eye-to-eye with me. They have different functional values from myself, and I have accepted that. That's all there is to it really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    As fun as this could be, do you really think this is a good way of going about self-improvement?
    Yes. Asking your conflictor is not a good idea, because you wouldn't see their advice as "self-improvement" -- you'd think, "what? I didn't ask how to make myself worse!"

    Your conflictor is good to give you information as to how you are seen by people with very different values from yourself, which improves your self-awareness, perhaps.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    As fun as this could be, do you really think this is a good way of going about self-improvement?
    Yes. Asking your conflictor is not a good idea, because you wouldn't see their advice as "self-improvement" -- you'd think, "what? I didn't ask how to make myself worse!"

    Your conflictor is good to give you information as to how you are seen by people with very different values from yourself, which improves your self-awareness, perhaps.
    This is true. I guess I just want the honest truth from them rather than it being softened up by my dual. You're right though- they probably wouldn't be the best at asking for advice about self-development.
    ESFp-Fi sub
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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    As fun as this could be, do you really think this is a good way of going about self-improvement?
    Yes. Asking your conflictor is not a good idea, because you wouldn't see their advice as "self-improvement" -- you'd think, "what? I didn't ask how to make myself worse!"

    Your conflictor is good to give you information as to how you are seen by people with very different values from yourself, which improves your self-awareness, perhaps.
    This is true. I guess I just want the honest truth from them rather than it being softened up by my dual. You're right though- they probably wouldn't be the best at asking for advice about self-development.
    you think an LII is more likely to give you "the honest truth" than an ILI?

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    You reach a fork in the road, and there are two people: one who tells the truth, and one who lies. But how do you know that you can take my word for it? Maybe they don't always feel like being consistent. Why is there a fork in the road anyway? Why are you walking places? You could get mugged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    As fun as this could be, do you really think this is a good way of going about self-improvement?
    Yes. Asking your conflictor is not a good idea, because you wouldn't see their advice as "self-improvement" -- you'd think, "what? I didn't ask how to make myself worse!"

    Your conflictor is good to give you information as to how you are seen by people with very different values from yourself, which improves your self-awareness, perhaps.
    This is true. I guess I just want the honest truth from them rather than it being softened up by my dual. You're right though- they probably wouldn't be the best at asking for advice about self-development.
    you think an LII is more likely to give you "the honest truth" than an ILI?
    your right... idk i just want their POV on the whole thing
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla
    I was thinking today ... I really like trees.
    I could ask my dad, but idk if he knows what a ESFP/SEE is.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir
    Quote Originally Posted by Carla
    I was thinking today ... I really like trees.
    I could ask my dad, but idk if he knows what a ESFP/SEE is.
    haha cool my dad is an INTj too and he had no idea either... maybe i should feel some sort of responsiblity to enlight their lives with socionics, but coming from me he wouldn't take it seriously.
    ESFp-Fi sub
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    INTp can only give you gammas perspective. INTj would be interesting, someone should say something.
    K here's how I feel about it.
    Really, like I told you before, I believe part of it is because you don't wipe their butts.. LIIs really need a girl who likes to wipe butts. You kind of do the opposite, you suggest in some way: Get away from me and go do it yourself.
    I have the same problem with ESEs when they come up to me and say something like ... "Good morning."
    Then when I don't say Good morning; I just say a disconnected "yeah...", since I don't even know them and the morning isn't really that good anyway.. I have not granted them the opportunity to further wipe my butt... they are now turned away and angry.
    "We've got the macy's day parade ian!" - ESE
    ....No response, since I don't care at all - ILI
    - ESE leaves annoyed

    "MMMmm... Good asperagus. Today they had good asperagus at the store. Brand new straight from.. blah blah blah" ESE
    "I don't give a shit" - ILI
    "You sure know how to be a dick don't you?" - ESE
    ...just being honest, if I said that to a SEE she laughs and agrees she doesnt give a shit.

    It's the same with SEE/LII but the butt wiping concept is reversed

    "You gota make sure I drink alot of water before I go to bed, so I'm not hungover" - Drunk LII
    "Why don't you just... drink water before you go to bed" - SEE
    ....results in an angry LII
    "Hey, Can I have one cigarette?" -LII
    "I only have two left" -SEE
    "Well can we split it" -LII
    "No, I need them for later" -SEE
    ...results in pissed off LII

    There is also the language issue.

    "I went to the mall today, I went shopping" -SEE
    "You mean you went shopping at the mall" -LII
    "Umm.... yeah that's what I mean. What else would I mean.." -SEE
    "Well ...(Insert some gramatical banter here)" -LII
    "...ok" -SEE
    LII proceeds to logically badger SEE

    Something I've had with my mom...
    "Everyone is fucking crazy" -ILI
    "Everyone is not crazy" -ESE
    "Yes they are" -ILI
    miscommunication on what the word crazy means. Results in socially offended ESE, ILI who thinks ESE is stupid. ILI is talking about what is on the inside of people, as being crazy. ESE is thinking of crazy in terms of behavior.

    Also, our negative way of talking.. they tend to really get offended by, and we kind of enjoy talking negative.. gossiping, being mean, etc. You have to admit we can be dicks sometimes.. its just too fun to stop

    I think Alphas get annoyed with the way we use language, clarifying the context of words to the fullest necessary extent.. instead of relying on the obvious implication. Closing the language off in a Te way- it annoys them.

    INTjs, I believe, are artistically retarded. I am basing this off two INTjs I have met.. one who was tone deaf; it took us 20 minutes to tune his guitar.. the other is the worst poet I have ever met, who believed he was a good poet. Anyway, they get annoyed by the anesthetics of Se/Fi from what I can tell.

    They also get annoyed when we don't help out with tasks related to the security of the collective peoples reality... they perceive us as sloths, I believe. We are only concerned about ourselves. That's butt wiping again, but ya that's Fe.

    Awekward moments also pop up when an Alpha says something like "Thank you"... and the Gamma replies "Oh, it's fine".. instead of saying "You're welcome", or something. For the Gamma it feels cheesey to say things like thank you, you're welcome.. they seem fake. For the alpha, I am not sure but I suspect it makes them feel uncomfortable, like we are wanting them to continue saying more thank you's or something... by us not acknowledging the validity of their statements.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla
    I was thinking today ... I really like trees.
    Example of INTj not understanding Se/Fi
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla
    I was thinking today ... I really like trees.
    I really like rocks. You see, we have learned something today: not all LIIs really like trees.
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    I really like to throw rocks at trees

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    Why don't you Alpha types ever clarify the context of words to the fullest necessary extent, instead of relying on the obvious implication? (i.e. that you are sexually repressed).
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by Carla
    I was thinking today ... I really like trees.
    I really like rocks. You see, we have learned something today: not all LIIs really like trees.
    I neither really like trees and/or rocks, nor do I really not like trees and/or rocks.
    I have a personal preference for artichoke.
    But then again, what is humanity?
    I ate civilization for breakfast this morning. It reminded me of very stale bread.

    But then again, am I an ILE-Ti/LII-Ne or am I an ILI-Ni?
    Only the serpent will decide--it is neither dead nor not dead. Ergo, I purchased bananas later this evening--which after all, was the day after Saturday, yet also the day before Sunday.

    Do you exist?
    Classical socionics: (), ILI-Ni
    Dual-type theory: INTp-ENTp

    5w6 sp/sx
    MBTI: INTJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat
    INTp can only give you gammas perspective. INTj would be interesting, someone should say something.
    K here's how I feel about it.
    Really, like I told you before, I believe part of it is because you don't wipe their butts.. LIIs really need a girl who likes to wipe butts. You kind of do the opposite, you suggest in some way: Get away from me and go do it yourself.
    I have the same problem with ESEs when they come up to me and say something like ... "Good morning."
    Then when I don't say Good morning; I just say a disconnected "yeah...", since I don't even know them and the morning isn't really that good anyway.. I have not granted them the opportunity to further wipe my butt... they are now turned away and angry.
    "We've got the macy's day parade ian!" - ESE
    ....No response, since I don't care at all - ILI
    - ESE leaves annoyed

    "MMMmm... Good asperagus. Today they had good asperagus at the store. Brand new straight from.. blah blah blah" ESE
    "I don't give a shit" - ILI
    "You sure know how to be a dick don't you?" - ESE
    ...just being honest, if I said that to a SEE she laughs and agrees she doesnt give a shit.

    It's the same with SEE/LII but the butt wiping concept is reversed

    "You gota make sure I drink alot of water before I go to bed, so I'm not hungover" - Drunk LII
    "Why don't you just... drink water before you go to bed" - SEE
    ....results in an angry LII
    "Hey, Can I have one cigarette?" -LII
    "I only have two left" -SEE
    "Well can we split it" -LII
    "No, I need them for later" -SEE
    ...results in pissed off LII

    There is also the language issue.

    "I went to the mall today, I went shopping" -SEE
    "You mean you went shopping at the mall" -LII
    "Umm.... yeah that's what I mean. What else would I mean.." -SEE
    "Well ...(Insert some gramatical banter here)" -LII
    "...ok" -SEE
    LII proceeds to logically badger SEE

    Something I've had with my mom...
    "Everyone is fucking crazy" -ILI
    "Everyone is not crazy" -ESE
    "Yes they are" -ILI
    miscommunication on what the word crazy means. Results in socially offended ESE, ILI who thinks ESE is stupid. ILI is talking about what is on the inside of people, as being crazy. ESE is thinking of crazy in terms of behavior.
    +5

    All excellent examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat
    INTp can only give you gammas perspective. INTj would be interesting, someone should say something.
    K here's how I feel about it.
    Really, like I told you before, I believe part of it is because you don't wipe their butts.. LIIs really need a girl who likes to wipe butts. You kind of do the opposite, you suggest in some way: Get away from me and go do it yourself.
    I have the same problem with ESEs when they come up to me and say something like ... "Good morning."
    Then when I don't say Good morning; I just say a disconnected "yeah...", since I don't even know them and the morning isn't really that good anyway.. I have not granted them the opportunity to further wipe my butt... they are now turned away and angry.
    "We've got the macy's day parade ian!" - ESE
    ....No response, since I don't care at all - ILI
    - ESE leaves annoyed

    "MMMmm... Good asperagus. Today they had good asperagus at the store. Brand new straight from.. blah blah blah" ESE
    "I don't give a shit" - ILI
    "You sure know how to be a dick don't you?" - ESE
    ...just being honest, if I said that to a SEE she laughs and agrees she doesnt give a shit.

    It's the same with SEE/LII but the butt wiping concept is reversed

    "You gota make sure I drink alot of water before I go to bed, so I'm not hungover" - Drunk LII
    "Why don't you just... drink water before you go to bed" - SEE
    ....results in an angry LII
    "Hey, Can I have one cigarette?" -LII
    "I only have two left" -SEE
    "Well can we split it" -LII
    "No, I need them for later" -SEE
    ...results in pissed off LII

    There is also the language issue.

    "I went to the mall today, I went shopping" -SEE
    "You mean you went shopping at the mall" -LII
    "Umm.... yeah that's what I mean. What else would I mean.." -SEE
    "Well ...(Insert some gramatical banter here)" -LII
    "...ok" -SEE
    LII proceeds to logically badger SEE

    Something I've had with my mom...
    "Everyone is fucking crazy" -ILI
    "Everyone is not crazy" -ESE
    "Yes they are" -ILI
    miscommunication on what the word crazy means. Results in socially offended ESE, ILI who thinks ESE is stupid. ILI is talking about what is on the inside of people, as being crazy. ESE is thinking of crazy in terms of behavior.
    +5

    All excellent examples.
    i agree... very awesome descriptions... especially the whole thank you think and speaking logically... i live with all alphas and this is a constant issue in communication. thanks crazedrat!
    ESFp-Fi sub
    6w7 sx/so/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    i agree... very awesome descriptions... especially the whole thank you think and speaking logically... i live with all alphas and this is a constant issue in communication. thanks crazedrat!
    As long as you are nice to Alphas, you won't have any communication problems.

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    That is the kind of butt-wiping demand that annoys SEEs
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat
    INTp can only give you gammas perspective. INTj would be interesting, someone should say something.
    K here's how I feel about it.
    Really, like I told you before, I believe part of it is because you don't wipe their butts.. LIIs really need a girl who likes to wipe butts. You kind of do the opposite, you suggest in some way: Get away from me and go do it yourself.
    I have the same problem with ESEs when they come up to me and say something like ... "Good morning."
    Then when I don't say Good morning; I just say a disconnected "yeah...", since I don't even know them and the morning isn't really that good anyway.. I have not granted them the opportunity to further wipe my butt... they are now turned away and angry.
    "We've got the macy's day parade ian!" - ESE
    ....No response, since I don't care at all - ILI
    - ESE leaves annoyed

    "MMMmm... Good asperagus. Today they had good asperagus at the store. Brand new straight from.. blah blah blah" ESE
    "I don't give a shit" - ILI
    "You sure know how to be a dick don't you?" - ESE
    ...just being honest, if I said that to a SEE she laughs and agrees she doesnt give a shit.

    It's the same with SEE/LII but the butt wiping concept is reversed

    "You gota make sure I drink alot of water before I go to bed, so I'm not hungover" - Drunk LII
    "Why don't you just... drink water before you go to bed" - SEE
    ....results in an angry LII
    "Hey, Can I have one cigarette?" -LII
    "I only have two left" -SEE
    "Well can we split it" -LII
    "No, I need them for later" -SEE
    ...results in pissed off LII

    There is also the language issue.

    "I went to the mall today, I went shopping" -SEE
    "You mean you went shopping at the mall" -LII
    "Umm.... yeah that's what I mean. What else would I mean.." -SEE
    "Well ...(Insert some gramatical banter here)" -LII
    "...ok" -SEE
    LII proceeds to logically badger SEE

    Something I've had with my mom...
    "Everyone is fucking crazy" -ILI
    "Everyone is not crazy" -ESE
    "Yes they are" -ILI
    miscommunication on what the word crazy means. Results in socially offended ESE, ILI who thinks ESE is stupid. ILI is talking about what is on the inside of people, as being crazy. ESE is thinking of crazy in terms of behavior.

    Also, our negative way of talking.. they tend to really get offended by, and we kind of enjoy talking negative.. gossiping, being mean, etc. You have to admit we can be dicks sometimes.. its just too fun to stop

    I think Alphas get annoyed with the way we use language, clarifying the context of words to the fullest necessary extent.. instead of relying on the obvious implication. Closing the language off in a Te way- it annoys them.

    INTjs, I believe, are artistically retarded. I am basing this off two INTjs I have met.. one who was tone deaf; it took us 20 minutes to tune his guitar.. the other is the worst poet I have ever met, who believed he was a good poet. Anyway, they get annoyed by the anesthetics of Se/Fi from what I can tell.

    They also get annoyed when we don't help out with tasks related to the security of the collective peoples reality... they perceive us as sloths, I believe. We are only concerned about ourselves. That's butt wiping again, but ya that's Fe.

    Awekward moments also pop up when an Alpha says something like "Thank you"... and the Gamma replies "Oh, it's fine".. instead of saying "You're welcome", or something. For the Gamma it feels cheesey to say things like thank you, you're welcome.. they seem fake. For the alpha, I am not sure but I suspect it makes them feel uncomfortable, like we are wanting them to continue saying more thank you's or something... by us not acknowledging the validity of their statements.

    this is awesome, btw.
    6w5 sx
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    where is that music coming from?

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    *dissociates self from the rock/tree argument on basis of personal irrelevance*

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat
    (hooting)
    Coo coo ca chu.

    It's not about the language, but the relevance of the information to what one finds immediately important.

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    Subterranean has it inbedded into his post, Niff. You can tell by quoting him.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    thats extremely annoying. most of the time the user is at least afforded the opportunity to turn the offending music off.


    please don't do it.

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    I am very very sorry.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I am very very sorry.
    sorry doesn't do much after you've woken the very very sick baby in the next room and disrupted a very very sad funeral.
    whenever the dog and i see each other we both stop where we are. we regard each other with a mixture of sadness and suspicion and then we feign indifference.

    Jerry, The Zoo Story by Edward Albee

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    Quote Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I am very very sorry.
    sorry doesn't do much after you've woken the very very sick baby in the next room and disrupted a very very sad funeral.
    I'm very, very, very sorry about the very very sick baby.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    hahaha good one crazedeffinrat. lol

    not sure about the concept of butt-wiping though. it needs refinement.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    I don't think you can pin this kind of needing to be babied on Si-seeking; the people you're talking about are just immature. I fucking hate it when people try to treat me like that.

    I do like laid-back people who give massages and don't mind cleaning, though
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    it's the whole infantile-caregiver romance styles they're referring to... my father is a 48 year old man getting his PhD and a vp in a good company. He is not immature, but he does expect his ass to be wiped.
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    its very strange that the quadras use are the same.. each think the other is selfish.

    How would an ILI react to an SEE refusing to give him cigarettes? I think these sort of reactions depend on how close to the people you are. The conflict does arise from the *perceived* expectation of the opposite quadra. not always the actual expectation. So i'd say both gammas and alphas make grammatical quibbles in the above examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    How would an ILI react to an SEE refusing to give him cigarettes?
    i don't smoke, and there are undoubtedly many other ILIs that don't smoke. the fact is that one's might appear more or less favorable to interact with based on whether or not they do smoke (certainly, they would in my view.), so i don't like this scenario much. i would be happier about it if the item being distributed were something more innocuous, like gum or food or something.

    (ftr this is nothing against people who smoke. i don't really care if you smoke if i never have to be near you.)


    rhetorical tirades aside, i would completely understand it if somebody said "i can't give you the last [item] because i know i'll need it later." ultimately, it's not mine to demand.

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    While I understand the whole infantile-caregiver dichotomy, I am still trying to figure out this "LIIs act like they need others to wipe their ass" thing is coming from.
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    lol SEE makes a thread to ask LII for advice on how to be a better person and ends up doing little else but turning the thread into one big insult to them

    typical

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    haha i didn't mean it as an insult at all actually, more just an observation of caregiver-infantile relations of which the LII is apart. i started this thread for LIIs to insult me but i end up insulting them....
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    What I find to be somewhat interesting is that I rarely see a post from an LII or ESE complaining about an SEE or ILI parent, but I do see my fair share of posts of ILI and SEE complaining or talking about their negative relationship with LII or ESE parents. It almost makes me wonder how correctly these parents have been typed, because some of the greatest amount of misunderstandings of Alphas seem to come from people with these experiences.
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    for the manners issue.. the difference is you interpret the way we talk as insulting, when we interpret it as either fun, or honest.
    There are different ways of thinking about what it means to have manners. Manners for a SEE would mean honesty and straightforwardness. Manners for an ESE.. I think would mean socially reassuring gestures. etc.
    I often interpret the way you talk as needy, and intentionally nagging.. focusing on things which seem irrelevent, etc. maybe you mean it to be relevent and interesting? Fun? I wouldn't know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    its very strange that the quadras use are the same.. each think the other is selfish.

    How would an ILI react to an SEE refusing to give him cigarettes? I think these sort of reactions depend on how close to the people you are. The conflict does arise from the *perceived* expectation of the opposite quadra. not always the actual expectation. So i'd say both gammas and alphas make grammatical quibbles in the above examples.
    I've encountered this situation many times at work, bumming from my SEE manager. First I start joking with her, I might say something like "can I have a damn cigarette".. then if she insists "no" I'm like... well let me have one hit. If she still insists no because she doesn't feel like smoking immediately or whatever, I just say ok and leave her alone. That, or I start to bribe her with some other value, as an equilizer.. or I insure her I will go buy her another pack of cigarettes soon, that I just want one.. etc. Encounters like this usually resolve in a short period of time. The big difference between this and a LII asking, I think, is the way I respond to the answer no by backing off and changing approaches.. using bribery, etc. instead of insisting on the simple favor and expecting the emotional support...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    What I find to be somewhat interesting is that I rarely see a post from an LII or ESE complaining about an SEE or ILI parent, but I do see my fair share of posts of ILI and SEE complaining or talking about their negative relationship with LII or ESE parents. It almost makes me wonder how correctly these parents have been typed, because some of the greatest amount of misunderstandings of Alphas seem to come from people with these experiences.
    it is kinda crazy... if it helps anything my dad's dad was an ILI... so maybe it's like a full circle thing haha
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