Gammas, what do you think about your unvalued information elements?

[liveandletlive]

I just posted a topic in general discussion called "IM elements and quadras" in which I asked if when other types read about their type's IM elements, if they feel like they fit them. (Answer there!) My question to you gammas is, what do you think about our super-ego and super-id IM elements? I'll get us started....

: After trying really really hard to understand this IM element better, I hope I don't understand it because I find it very hard to find its effectiveness and usefulness in everyday life. I've heard those exceptions on this forum, "Well if you're a hostess it helps!" "If you have a sick child it helps!" I don't even want to get into how these are rare examples that don't apply to EVERYDAY life. Such a lame IM element.

I find it very in your face and annoying. I feel like a lot of people with this element tend to use it for their own attention and praise. However, I do find it superior to in terms of Reinin's serious vs. merry dichotomy. Us - valuing types do tend to take things involving ethics a little too seriously and tend to see others' ethics in black and white terms- types are usually more understanding and forgiving. In a way, is more effective than too because it's necessary when dealing with people for business, or really most other relations. I do like my own though in a lot of ways too, don't get me wrong.

This whole N thing really throws me for a loop- I get that people with N as their first function use it primarily, but my God- what that must be like to not know every little detail in your surroundings! That's so foreign to me! seems to make more sense to me, but types seem to have an even shorter attention span than us s! It seems useless to me however because it's all about potential and not how to apply it in reality- in fact, they often do not.

This I am probably the most curious to hear about from you guys. In order to not confound any views and opinions on I will keep my own to myself until others start to talk about it!

[aestrivex]

there is no CJI

[aestrivex]

and on the seventh day petals fell in petaluma

[aestrivex]

clearly in the; lewis, be dead

[liveandletlive]

what beautiful yet random imagery you just created with your ! now if you could just answer the question dear that would be most helpful

[aestrivex]

what beautiful yet random imagery you just created with your ! now if you could just answer the question dear that would be most helpful

dear?

[aestrivex]

try {ascension of the whales}

finally{}

[liveandletlive]

[aestrivex]

[liveandletlive]

[Logos]

Sad.

Puzzled.

Shock.

[aestrivex]

Puzzled.

not exactly.

[discojoe]

Puzzled.

More like, "how do I politely tell this person that he's stupid?"

[Logos]

Puzzled.

More like, "how do I politely tell this person that he's stupid?"

Which in a word would be "puzzled." :wink:

[discojoe]

Puzzled.

More like, "how do I politely tell this person that he's stupid?"

Which in a word would be "puzzled." :wink:

No. Simply "puzzled" is far too simple to describe it. Only emotionally unintelligent people say such worthless things.

[Logos]

Puzzled.

More like, "how do I politely tell this person that he's stupid?"

Which in a word would be "puzzled." :wink:

No. Simply "puzzled" is far too simple to describe it. Only emotionally unintelligent people say such worthless things.

You're right. I am that of course. So what would you describe it as in one word?

[aestrivex]

discojoe's explanation is only partially correct anyway. leave it alone.

[Warlord]

Puzzled.

More like, "how do I politely tell this person that he's stupid?"

Which in a word would be "puzzled." :wink:

No. Simply "puzzled" is far too simple to describe it. Only emotionally unintelligent people say such worthless things.

You're right. I am that of course. So what would you describe it as in one word?

constipated

[liveandletlive]

Puzzled.

More like, "how do I politely tell this person that he's stupid?"

thanks.

[Ms. Kensington]

: After trying really really hard to understand this IM element better, I hope I don't understand it because I find it very hard to find its effectiveness and usefulness in everyday life. I've heard those exceptions on this forum, "Well if you're a hostess it helps!" "If you have a sick child it helps!" I don't even want to get into how these are rare examples that don't apply to EVERYDAY life.

this is very confusing and sounds very biased (re: how is it not related to everyday life? seems to automatically assume life is only about .. bills or something? I have no idea). You could understand Si, but seem very focused on your own value of Se.

[liveandletlive]

: After trying really really hard to understand this IM element better, I hope I don't understand it because I find it very hard to find its effectiveness and usefulness in everyday life. I've heard those exceptions on this forum, "Well if you're a hostess it helps!" "If you have a sick child it helps!" I don't even want to get into how these are rare examples that don't apply to EVERYDAY life.

this is very confusing and sounds very biased (re: how is it not related to everyday life? seems to automatically assume life is only about .. bills or something? I have no idea). You could understand Si, but seem very focused on your own value of Se.

of course it's biased but being a gamma and being concerned with efficiency and productivity, i find it very hard for me to see the value in . Idk I seriously feel as if it's a waste of a function to be honest. I truthfully don't mean that in n offensive way but rather just stating how i feel.

[Exodus]

Whenever you notice that you're hungry and that you should eat, you're using Si. Or when you're balancing a stack of books on your head. Or when you slam on the breaks to keep from hitting another car. Etc.

Let me put it this way: without Si, you would die.

[Megan]

of course it's biased but being a gamma and being concerned with efficiency and productivity, i find it very hard for me to see the value in . Idk I seriously feel as if it's a waste of a function to be honest. I truthfully don't mean that in n offensive way but rather just stating how i feel.

I must say that I too thought that was the most worthless of all the functions at first. Now, I think it is very important. In my mind it is a function not so much about being able to cook well because they are types who actually are quite bad cooks. types just seem to have balance and a kind of sensible way of preserving their energy or using it wisely and especially consistently. It eventually gets kinda hard to be truly productive if your were neglecting your body's need for comfort, relaxation and internal stability. Neglecting might lead to a state where it is hard to enjoy and appreciate what is already present because has one so focused on the future and a few ENXjs seem to suffer from early burn-out and a near total lack of productivity eventually due to over doing things earlier on.

[liveandletlive]

of course it's biased but being a gamma and being concerned with efficiency and productivity, i find it very hard for me to see the value in . Idk I seriously feel as if it's a waste of a function to be honest. I truthfully don't mean that in n offensive way but rather just stating how i feel.

I must say that I too thought that was the most worthless of all the functions at first. Now, I think it is very important. In my mind it is a function not so much about being able to cook well because they are types who actually are quite bad cooks. types just seem to have balance and a kind of sensible way of preserving their energy or using it wisely and especially consistently. It eventually gets kinda hard to be truly productive if your were neglecting your body's need for comfort, relaxation and internal stability. Neglecting might lead to a state where it is hard to enjoy and appreciate what is already present because has one so focused on the future and a few ENXjs seem to suffer from early burn-out and a near total lack of productivity eventually due to over doing things earlier on.

that's true... i do see the advantages of it but id still rather be haha

[PotatoSpirit]

I'm suffering from lack of understanding too (c:

What I think right now is that concentrates on things that make you feel good, relaxed and balanced, which are obviously very good things to be, arguably they are what's really important.

[liveandletlive]

I'm suffering from lack of understanding too (c:

What I think right now is that concentrates on things that make you feel good, relaxed and balanced, which are obviously very good things to be, arguably they are what's really important.

maybe, i just don't see how they're useful in achieving or accomplishing anything...

[crazedrat]

Si is the perception of what simply is. It is an awareness of singular abstractions from a variety of objects in reality. Like of all the wheels you've seen in your life, you develop a meta-concept for what is a wheel, and this is your Si for wheel. You use this Si to judge the worthiness of any new wheel you come into contact with.
This eventually turns into the maintenance of Si: The concern Si types have with limiting all their surroundings (Ne) To be in agreement with their accepted terms of Si.
This does translate into things like comfort, etc... but that's not the heart of the issue.
Si.. It's kind of a word for a closed mind.
It's a survival function, a defensive function.. it is useful in that way.

[PotatoSpirit]

What I think right now is that concentrates on things that make you feel good, relaxed and balanced, which are obviously very good things to be, arguably they are what's really important.

maybe, i just don't see how they're useful in achieving or accomplishing anything...

You are trying to find a way for to help achieving a objective, and I don't think you will succeed.
Why don't you consider well-being an accomplishment?

[Joy]

: After trying really really hard to understand this IM element better, I hope I don't understand it because I find it very hard to find its effectiveness and usefulness in everyday life. I've heard those exceptions on this forum, "Well if you're a hostess it helps!" "If you have a sick child it helps!" I don't even want to get into how these are rare examples that don't apply to EVERYDAY life. Such a lame IM element.

<3

However, I do think it's useful. How do you know if you should wear a long or short sleeved shirt that day? How do you know what shoes will be appropriate? How do you know what to eat? How do you know when you need to go to the doctor and when you should just "rub some dirt on it", so to speak? How do you find the motivation to shower every single day, or go grocery shopping relatively regularly, or go to bed at a reasonable hour, or get that suspicious squealing coming from your car checked out?

[Joy]

Anyways, I'll participate:

Fe: The language of the natives. It's not so bad, and your ability to accomplish things increases exponentially as you improve your ability to use the language.

Si: A constant struggle, as you may have gathered from my last post. When it comes to enjoying comfort, however... well, Si's great, if you can afford it. If not, work on affording it.

Ne: Ne's okay. Sort of fun. I enjoy Ne conversations, for a while. Overall though, when it's time to actually accomplish something, it's pretty much only useful in the brainstorming stages.

Ti: I probably have the least patience for Ti, though I do see and understand its purpose. Basically, it's the backbone of science and society. It needs to be in place in order for society to run.

[aestrivex]

Ti: I probably have the least patience for Ti, though I do see and understand its purpose. Basically, it's the backbone of science and society. It needs to be in place in order for society to run.

??????

[Joy]

I'll assume you're not questioning the "backbone of science" bit.

Ti as it relates to "the backbone of society": Our system of government (its three branches, the voting system, the judicial process, the bill of rights, how a bill becomes a law, etc.), organized religion and its rules (whether a Ti type believes them or not is irrelevant), military hierarchy (or governmental, religious, corporate, mafia, etc.), societal standards for "honor" (though certain aspects of "honor" could be attributed to other things, when someone talks about "honor" they're usually referring to some sort of code of behavior or position within a system), familial structure (not the relationships themselves... who likes or loves or hates who... but who is related to who and how, legally or technically speaking), corporate (or other holding entity and law) structure and law (including not for profit organizations), cultural laws/standards (arranged marriages, the first born son being the heir, etc.), international law and foreign policy (though obviously there are other factors as well), codes of ethics, systems of measurement (100 cm = 1 m... okay, now I'm getting closer to science again), political affiliation, associations (such as the PTA), family law, the department of health (or anything else, for that matter), etc.

Policy, laws, rules, systems, etc. These things are the backbone of society... the impartial/impersonal things that provide structure. Without such structure, things like property ownership and insurance would be nonexistent.

(Why do I get the feeling the Ne + Ti types are about to burst in and bitch? Yes, there's a certain degree of Se/aristocracy in some of my examples... I was trying to avoid science/math, you see.)

[aestrivex]

I'll assume you're not questioning the "backbone of science" bit.

i'm questioning that as much as any other part of the post. science is fundamentally based on the scientific method, which is not Ti at all. the presence of "rules" in a Ti sense defining the laws of physics, etc., is coincidental.

i as it relates to "the backbone of society": Our system of government (its three branches, the voting system, the judicial process, the bill of rights, how a bill becomes a law, etc.), organized religion and its rules (whether a Ti type believes them or not is irrelevant), military hierarchy (or governmental, religious, corporate, mafia, etc.), societal standards for "honor" (though certain aspects of "honor" could be attributed to other things, when someone talks about "honor" they're usually referring to some sort of code of behavior or position within a system), familial structure (not the relationships themselves... who likes or loves or hates who... but who is related to who and how, legally or technically speaking), corporate (or other holding entity and law) structure and law (including not for profit organizations), cultural laws/standards (arranged marriages, the first born son being the heir, etc.), international law and foreign policy (though obviously there are other factors as well), codes of ethics, systems of measurement (100 cm = 1 m... okay, now I'm getting closer to science again), political affiliation, associations (such as the PTA), family law, the department of health (or anything else, for that matter), etc.

Policy, laws, rules, systems, etc. These things are the backbone of society... the impartial/impersonal things that provide structure. Without such structure, things like property ownership and insurance would be nonexistent.

OK, i can see where you're coming from. i would quibble that this represents the "backbone of society," but its clearly fundamental to its proper functioning.

[XoX]

Anyways, I'll participate:
Ne: Ne's okay. Sort of fun. I enjoy Ne conversations, for a while. Overall though, when it's time to actually accomplish something, it's pretty much only useful in the brainstorming stages.

You are partially right. I have worked with some Ne-types lately and I can see better what they bring to the table.

There are certain points in project timeline when you need Ne. Obviously when you are starting a project you need a Ne person around to brainstorm with. They help you to understand all the aspects connected to the project. This is very important as there are often things which, if not taken care of in the early stages of the project, cause considerable problems in the later stages. Ne helps you to see the big picture.

However after the initial stage you want to remove the Ne-person in order to concentrate on doing stuff. If you keep the Ne-person around he/she will confuse you and slow you down by continously bringing up new (often pretty irrelevant) aspects. Also Ne types have a tendency to continuously change what has already been settled. Resulting in chaos and lack of direction.

You probably want to bring the Ne person back in certain other stages of the project to see whether the big picture has changed and if new things have surfaced which could be helpful or which you should take into account. Ne types are often very well tuned to latest trends, technologies, ... whatever it is that is relevant in your field. However it is important to remember the pattern: bring Ne in, use it, kick Ne out, push forward.

Then yet another situation where Ne is useful is when you hit a dead end. When you get stuck and can't see a way out. Ne people seem to always have another perspective, another path, another way to approach the situation and they can show how it is not a dead end at all. Just an interesting situation with many possible successful paths to take. But again remember: bring Ne in, use it, kick Ne out, push forward.

[Joy]

I'll assume you're not questioning the "backbone of science" bit.

i'm questioning that as much as any other part of the post. science is fundamentally based on the scientific method, which is not Ti at all. the presence of "rules" in a Ti sense defining the laws of physics, etc., is coincidental.

I guess this is where Te vs. Ti comes down to "theory vs. practice", in a way. The laws of physics, systems of measurement, chemical equations, etc. would be the "theory" in a sense. It's the black and white.

I guess I would say... Ti is the backbone of science in that without systems of measurement and such, science wouldn't be able to progress. It's the systems that hold it all together, not just an apple falling on some guy's head. Te would be "the point" or "the process" (or method) of science, but we wouldn't have anyway to record/organize information if not for Ti.

Ti as it relates to "the backbone of society": Our system of government (its three branches, the voting system, the judicial process, the bill of rights, how a bill becomes a law, etc.), organized religion and its rules (whether a Ti type believes them or not is irrelevant), military hierarchy (or governmental, religious, corporate, mafia, etc.), societal standards for "honor" (though certain aspects of "honor" could be attributed to other things, when someone talks about "honor" they're usually referring to some sort of code of behavior or position within a system), familial structure (not the relationships themselves... who likes or loves or hates who... but who is related to who and how, legally or technically speaking), corporate (or other holding entity and law) structure and law (including not for profit organizations), cultural laws/standards (arranged marriages, the first born son being the heir, etc.), international law and foreign policy (though obviously there are other factors as well), codes of ethics, systems of measurement (100 cm = 1 m... okay, now I'm getting closer to science again), political affiliation, associations (such as the PTA), family law, the department of health (or anything else, for that matter), etc.

Policy, laws, rules, systems, etc. These things are the backbone of society... the impartial/impersonal things that provide structure. Without such structure, things like property ownership and insurance would be nonexistent.

OK, i can see where you're coming from. i would quibble that this represents the "backbone of society," but its clearly fundamental to its proper functioning.

It represents "the backbone of society" because without such structures in place, there would be anarchy... which is the opposite of society, in a way. It's Ti rules and consistency that keep society running.

Fi would be more like "the backbone of relationships", if I had to make a comparison. Fi is personal, Ti is impersonal.

[Joy]

Anyways, I'll participate:
Ne: Ne's okay. Sort of fun. I enjoy Ne conversations, for a while. Overall though, when it's time to actually accomplish something, it's pretty much only useful in the brainstorming stages.

You are partially right. I have worked with some Ne-types lately and I can see better what they bring to the table.

There are certain points in project timeline when you need Ne. Obviously when you are starting a project you need a Ne person around to brainstorm with. They help you to understand all the aspects connected to the project. This is very important as there are often things which, if not taken care of in the early stages of the project, cause considerable problems in the later stages. Ne helps you to see the big picture.

However after the initial stage you want to remove the Ne-person in order to concentrate on doing stuff. If you keep the Ne-person around he/she will confuse you and slow you down by continously bringing up new (often pretty irrelevant) aspects. Also Ne types have a tendency to continuously change what has already been settled. Resulting in chaos and lack of direction.

You probably want to bring the Ne person back in certain other stages of the project to see whether the big picture has changed and if new things have surfaced which could be helpful or which you should take into account. Ne types are often very well tuned to latest trends, technologies, ... whatever it is that is relevant in your field. However it is important to remember the pattern: bring Ne in, use it, kick Ne out, push forward.

Then yet another situation where Ne is useful is when you hit a dead end. When you get stuck and can't see a way out. Ne people seem to always have another perspective, another path, another way to approach the situation and they can show how it is not a dead end at all. Just an interesting situation with many possible successful paths to take. But again remember: bring Ne in, use it, kick Ne out, push forward.

lol

I relate to what you're saying, but I think it's good to consult with the Ne person throughout the course of the project. (Though I'm thinking mostly of IEE's, honestly. I guess I haven't had enough experiences with ILE's?) You tell them what's going on and their eyes light up and they say, "What if..." and proceed with an idea. A lot of times that idea helps bring it all together. A lot of times it's just an idea though. Regardless, chances are you'll respond by rubbing your chin and saying, "Huh, I hadn't thought of that..."

I guess what I'm saying is that they're good for coming up with solutions or ideas in various stages, too.

But... I didn't think this thread isn't about people of those types?

[Gilly]

Joy, I feel like you're finally "getting it" Maybe you have for a while, but recently I find myself acknowledging most of what you post as legitimate, which, as you not, I did not for some time.

Hooray

[Joy]

lol

I don't think we've disagreed about most of Socionics for some time, but we've seemed to miss each other's posts more often than we used to. Both busier these days, I imagine.

But yeah, Socionics started making more sense (less confusion about Fe, mainly) in the spring when I was touring the chapter meetings of an association I belong to. I realized that one of the members is IEI and it drastically changed my concept of Fe. There's also the matter of really "getting" the concepts of the information aspects/elements, too.

Before that I understood most of the theory, but I didn't really "get" Fe, a crucial piece of the puzzle (I understood the basic concept, but I was misattributing various things to it). More recently I "figured out" Si, and that's really helped me "get" the full picture, too.

[liveandletlive]

What I think right now is that concentrates on things that make you feel good, relaxed and balanced, which are obviously very good things to be, arguably they are what's really important.

maybe, i just don't see how they're useful in achieving or accomplishing anything...

You are trying to find a way for to help achieving a objective, and I don't think you will succeed.
Why don't you consider well-being an accomplishment?

Is it wrong that I perceive that as selfish? Not like can't be sometimes... ahhhh idk it's just not for me. I probably should start valuing it though... i have a bad cold cuz of not sleeping, eating, and pulling allnighters too many times in a row. I kinda liked it though in a sick way hahaha

[liveandletlive]

Anyways, I'll participate:
Ne: Ne's okay. Sort of fun. I enjoy Ne conversations, for a while. Overall though, when it's time to actually accomplish something, it's pretty much only useful in the brainstorming stages.

You are partially right. I have worked with some Ne-types lately and I can see better what they bring to the table.

There are certain points in project timeline when you need Ne. Obviously when you are starting a project you need a Ne person around to brainstorm with. They help you to understand all the aspects connected to the project. This is very important as there are often things which, if not taken care of in the early stages of the project, cause considerable problems in the later stages. Ne helps you to see the big picture.

However after the initial stage you want to remove the Ne-person in order to concentrate on doing stuff. If you keep the Ne-person around he/she will confuse you and slow you down by continously bringing up new (often pretty irrelevant) aspects. Also Ne types have a tendency to continuously change what has already been settled. Resulting in chaos and lack of direction.

You probably want to bring the Ne person back in certain other stages of the project to see whether the big picture has changed and if new things have surfaced which could be helpful or which you should take into account. Ne types are often very well tuned to latest trends, technologies, ... whatever it is that is relevant in your field. However it is important to remember the pattern: bring Ne in, use it, kick Ne out, push forward.

Then yet another situation where Ne is useful is when you hit a dead end. When you get stuck and can't see a way out. Ne people seem to always have another perspective, another path, another way to approach the situation and they can show how it is not a dead end at all. Just an interesting situation with many possible successful paths to take. But again remember: bring Ne in, use it, kick Ne out, push forward.

awesome description! haha yeah i kinda feel the same way about it... kinda cool... but kinda inefficient