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Thread: Question for Deltas: learning from Betas

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    Default Question for Deltas: learning from Betas

    Have you learned anything from Beta that has helped you in some way? I'm not sucking up to Beta, since I find it annoying when people do that.

    Honestly, I have improved in certain aspects and understandings by watching ESTps, and trying to see why they do what they do. Believe it or not, you can learn some things from watching Jackass .

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    I ask them about image questions because they are so concerned about it, and generally have decent advice.

    Dealing with them has made me absolutely unafraid and unreserved about yelling or getting pissed off at someone - because apparently people just need you to interact with them in that way, sometimes. It is not something I like doing but sometimes you have to be so demonstrative for them to understand.
    ..To me, its like treating people like dogs - like you have to treat people like shit sometimes because its the only way they understand what you have to say. Whether or not that is healthy beta interaction I don't know, but it is what I have taken away from them. Keep in mind - I am not beta.

    Jackass as a show seems quite stupid, but if you found something from it that's great.

    They are good at having emotional speeches, and at being exceptionally jovial and relaxed about everything but their image, and fitting in with their own social group.

    Betas seem useful to delegate things that otherwise don't value, so knowing when something is important to them and how to go about it so things still run effectively - that is generally the challenge and reward of dealing with them properly. They are good at things I am not good at, so figuring out how to use their strengths effectively is interesting.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    JTDW Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I ask them about image questions because they are so concerned about it, and generally have decent advice.

    Dealing with them has made me absolutely unafraid and unreserved about yelling or getting pissed off at someone - because apparently people just need you to interact with them in that way, sometimes. It is not something I like doing but sometimes you have to be so demonstrative for them to understand.
    ..To me, its like treating people like dogs - like you have to treat people like shit sometimes because its the only way they understand what you have to say. Whether or not that is healthy beta interaction I don't know, but it is what I have taken away from them. Keep in mind - I am not beta.
    That has been my impression as well.

    Jackass as a show seems quite stupid, but if you found something from it that's great.
    Interestingly I have. An episode that comes to mind, which actually is from Viva la Bam, deals with them recking each other's property and not having resentment for it. It is a strange concept for me, but there is something good about that. Also, I know that they probably do crazy stuff for ratings, and because they have the money to actually not care about loss of property. But still, it is interesting.

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    but there is something good about that
    what would that be?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Well, that they don't hold resentment towards their friends for having their things destroyed. I think that it is good that they forgive and forget, or at least that's what I get from it.

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    Default Re: Learning from Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    Have you learned anything from Beta that has helped you in some way? I'm not sucking up to Beta, since I find it annoying when people do that.

    Honestly, I have improved in certain aspects and understandings by watching ESTps, and trying to see why they do what they do. Believe it or not, you can learn some things from watching Jackass .
    I have to admit that as distant and sporadic as my contact with my ESTp roommate has been, and continues to be, I have learned something about being assertive from him. Granted, I still think he takes it too far too frequently, but I do think that I am a better and stronger person for it. In a way, I guess I consider my knowing him to have made me somewhat more of a balanced individual.
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    My parents are Beta (Dad istj/ mom enfj). My life has been a living hell. . . They do not get me at all. I am usually just quiet until they really push me and then I flip, they act victimized and then I look like an ass. I cannot stand that victim shit, and agressors freak me out. ESTP and INFP are not as bad for me, but I don't like the games. I get along with ESTP better than other Betas.

    (Right now I am kind of bitter about Betas since I have been fighting with a few lately.)
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    munenori2 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: Re: Learning from Beta

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sereno wrote:
    Have you learned anything from Beta that has helped you in some way? I'm not sucking up to Beta, since I find it annoying when people do that.

    Honestly, I have improved in certain aspects and understandings by watching ESTps, and trying to see why they do what they do. Believe it or not, you can learn some things from watching Jackass .


    I have to admit that as distant and sporadic as my contact with my ESTp roommate has been, and continues to be, I have learned something about being assertive from him. Granted, I still think he takes it too far too frequently, but I do think that I am a better and stronger person for it. In a way, I guess I consider my knowing him to have made me somewhat more of a balanced individual.
    is something that needs developing in my case. However, I seem to underestimate my capabilities of Se, at least, based on what others tell me. I've heard people tell me that I am physically tough, which is something that surprises me, since I'm always self-conscience about it. Another thing that I have learned from ESTps, although from other types as well, is in what situations to use force and when to "let things go." Knowing when to apply is problematic for me at times, which is why it's good to see someone who does know when to use it appropriately. I've no problem getting aggressive, but I can have bad timing . I can't imagine having an ESTp roommate though...


    Christy B Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:38 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My parents are Beta (Dad istj/ mom enfj). My life has been a living hell. . . They do not get me at all. I am usually just quiet until they really push me and then I flip, they act victimized and then I look like an ass. I cannot stand that victim shit, and agressors freak me out. ESTP and INFP are not as bad for me, but I don't like the games. I get along with ESTP better than other Betas.

    (Right now I am kind of bitter about Betas since I have been fighting with a few lately.)
    *performs the sign of the cross*... good luck with that .

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    Default Re: Learning from Beta

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    Have you learned anything from Beta that has helped you in some way? I'm not sucking up to Beta, since I find it annoying when people do that.

    Honestly, I have improved in certain aspects and understandings by watching ESTps, and trying to see why they do what they do. Believe it or not, you can learn some things from watching Jackass .
    Perhaps just to reinforce the idea of giving others a break for their behaviour. I think that stems from personality-type theory in general.
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    Yeah, one can learn from betas.

    I hate ESTp being so negative all the time; like they are always watching their backs. I remember that I entered a friend's house and his ESTp son followed me quietly because he thought I could steal something... fucking annoying attitude, but I think that it's a bad thing to not know who are your friends (Fi PoLR).

    In any case, that saves the day pretty often. I remember that I was about to cut aluminum on an abrasive cut-off saw and this guy came to check me and then told me not to do it and instead use the metal saw. If I had used such a saw I would probably had ruined the disc and maybe even caused an accident, because aluminum melts and clogs the disc and it heats up pretty quickly by friction until it falls apart.

    But no one will convince me that betas are on the same level as alphas or deltas. It seems to me that Se and Ni are a poisonous combination. Capitalism, fascism... the worst things we know seem to come from that loop.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno


    Christy B Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:38 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My parents are Beta (Dad istj/ mom enfj). My life has been a living hell. . . They do not get me at all. I am usually just quiet until they really push me and then I flip, they act victimized and then I look like an ass. I cannot stand that victim shit, and agressors freak me out. ESTP and INFP are not as bad for me, but I don't like the games. I get along with ESTP better than other Betas.

    (Right now I am kind of bitter about Betas since I have been fighting with a few lately.)
    *performs the sign of the cross*... good luck with that .
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    i'm not delta but i'll comment here:

    from estp: you learn to be tough and to take it on the chin and to push back (they also say some really funny shit, lol)

    from enfj: the movers of large groups and the dispensers of positive mood; it's amazing to watch them get everybody focused and motivated

    from istj: the processors of data data data and the immovable rock. they absolutely will not give in on something they've made up their mind about.

    from infp: the way they massage conflict into acceptability and make things seem absolutely fine

    c'mon people beta aint that bad :wink: no worse than gamma! lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B
    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno


    Christy B Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:38 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My parents are Beta (Dad istj/ mom enfj). My life has been a living hell. . . They do not get me at all. I am usually just quiet until they really push me and then I flip, they act victimized and then I look like an ass. I cannot stand that victim shit, and agressors freak me out. ESTP and INFP are not as bad for me, but I don't like the games. I get along with ESTP better than other Betas.

    (Right now I am kind of bitter about Betas since I have been fighting with a few lately.)
    *performs the sign of the cross*... good luck with that .
    Hahaha- My mom is a priest so she is usually the one doing this to me!!!!
    you might have PK syndrome going on over there. take it from me, a PK myself.

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    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    mikemex Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:25 am Post subject:

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    Yeah, one can learn from betas.

    I hate ESTp being so negative all the time; like they are always watching their backs. I remember that I entered a friend's house and his ESTp son followed me quietly because he thought I could steal something... fucking annoying attitude, but I think that it's a bad thing to not know who are your friends (Fi PoLR).

    In any case, that saves the day pretty often. I remember that I was about to cut aluminum on an abrasive cut-off saw and this guy came to check me and then told me not to do it and instead use the metal saw. If I had used such a saw I would probably had ruined the disc and maybe even caused an accident, because aluminum melts and clogs the disc and it heats up pretty quickly by friction until it falls apart.

    But no one will convince me that betas are on the same level as alphas or deltas. It seems to me that Se and Ni are a poisonous combination. Capitalism, fascism... the worst things we know seem to come from that loop.
    I am sorry, but if a beta did that I would think twice about his intentions in providing the help. I think that what you mention is stereotypical ESTj behavior.

    Blaze Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    i'm not delta but i'll comment here:

    from estp: you learn to be tough and to take it on the chin and to push back (they also say some really funny shit, lol)

    from enfj: the movers of large groups and the dispensers of positive mood; it's amazing to watch them get everybody focused and motivated

    from istj: the processors of data data data and the immovable rock. they absolutely will not give in on something they've made up their mind about.

    from infp: the way they massage conflict into acceptability and make things seem absolutely fine

    c'mon people beta aint that bad no worse than gamma! lol
    I do think it's that bad, but, I guess it's to be expected. However, just as there are truths to other people's negative perception of delta, there are some beta doings that I know are completely wrong.

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    This thread's pretty informative, except for this bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    But no one will convince me that betas are on the same level as alphas or deltas. It seems to me that Se and Ni are a poisonous combination. Capitalism, fascism... the worst things we know seem to come from that loop.
    Yeah, you can go shove your false sense of superiority up your incredibly loose asshole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    Yeah, you can go shove your false sense of superiority up your incredibly loose asshole.
    see? that's some funny estp shit lol!!

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    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    The people that I've know that I'm pretty sure were beta have usually had good intentions toward me, even if they didn't always act just as I would have preferred. There are a couple in particular that I'm thinking of, and even though it's hard to really connect with them on a certain level, they've always been good at encouraging and teaching me how to be more assertive, to be more confident leading and being in front of people, and so on. All of their usual talents.

    I remember one time, two of them, both in seniority positions above me, pulled me aside and told me that I needed to be more bold and that it seemed I got stressed too easily and they were concerned and wanted me to handle myself better. I almost broke down crying right then and there, but I figured they were right and that crying was just exactly the wrong thing to do. So I didn't cry, not then and not later, and I did get better at handling stress and being bold(er). They were pleased and decided I wasn't half bad (even if a little odd) and I've gained confidence.

    So, even though I have a hard time connecting with or understanding some betas (or even sometimes liking how they do things), I appreciate them and have decided that I can learn a lot from them.

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    I actually agree that capitalism, fascism, and probably even things like slavery (I refer to the ancient institution that is thousands of years old, not just the most recent and famous historical example) result from Se-Ni.

    However, also lots of things that got humankind "going". Se-Ni is what pushes forward, not necessarily always in "good" directions.
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    And Expat restores my faith in humanity once again.

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    If it was for this forum, I should just hide myself in a closet and not interact with anybody anymore
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    If it was for this forum, I should just hide myself in a closet and not interact with anybody anymore
    I'm already living your dream

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    I learned today from betas that they knew about the environmental issues all along - each and every one of them.

    You can learn from betas how to jump on any bandwagon that is passing by, so long as it is loud and seems important. And if it actually is, well then, you'll just have to hear how great their idea was for the rest of your life. You should have listened to them sooner!
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    you sound bitter UDP... not that I blame you, you have always been the voice of enviormentalism on the forum (no joking)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    If it was for this forum, I should just hide myself in a closet and not interact with anybody anymore
    I'm already living your dream
    Well I was just standing here
    and bionicgoat and FDG locked themselves
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    come out the closet
    and nobody has no answers so I
    pull out my gun,
    Tell me why they in the closet
    or else I'm gunna shoot
    someone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    I don't know what subtype I would fall into, or the definition of the classification. I had thought that my inclination was towards Fi, but, who knows... Also, I don't think that it would really make any difference for me actually. Btw, my MBTI type is INFJ as well.
    I would not have guessed MBTI INFJ for you for some reason but back to socionics. You do not come across like a Fi INFj, they usually are rather "softer" and less "aggressive", much like poster Minde. I(N)Fjs can sometimes (not in all cases) come across as overly and maybe even inapropriately forceful without realising it, perhaps for them it is related to what you have mentioned down below like underestimating their capacity to use a form of or something. Polrs are interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    is something that needs developing in my case. However, I seem to underestimate my capabilities of Se, at least, based on what others tell me.I've heard people tell me that I am physically tough, which is something that surprises me, since I'm always self-conscience about it. Another thing that I have learned from ESTps, although from other types as well, is in what situations to use force and when to "let things go." Knowing when to apply is problematic for me at times, which is why it's good to see someone who does know when to use it appropriately. I've no problem getting aggressive, but I can have bad timing . I can't imagine having an ESTp roommate though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno
    What I think is that the philosophical concept of utilitarianism originated from a Betian. It is such a logical concept, yet it disregards the individual with the ends justifying any means. That might be the reasoning for their actions, but I'm not sure. In essence, that is probably the reason that I, and probably all of the delta quadra, will always disagree with Beta.

    Anyway, I am not going to challenge your ideas much in this thread (I predict too much tiresome aggro with too little useful info in return) but I feel the desire to say that not all or even most betas think the ends justify the means , just ask them what they think, and I bet there are in fact some deltas with that mindset too so I would question the basis for your idea that it originated from a beta person. That type of atitude is unlikely to be strictly quadra specific, maybe it is more type specific or just an individual thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTDW
    I learned today from betas that they knew about the environmental issues all along - each and every one of them.

    You can learn from betas how to jump on any bandwagon that is passing by, so long as it is loud and seems important. And if it actually is, well then, you'll just have to hear how great their idea was for the rest of your life. You should have listened to them sooner!
    lol

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    Both Alpha and Beta want to make radical changes to society (Augusta called them the revolutionaries, and rightly so), but Beta is willing to bitch at people and push people out of their way in order to do so.

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    Concerning ESTps, I feel like I can learn a lot from them, but I almost don't want their lessons at times. I admire how assertive and confident they are, very shrewd with their resources concerning their goals. As with the rest of my beta experiences, they just seem to go into the extreme of assertiveness and 'manipulation' of their resources, and it makes me uneasy. I would like it if the assertiveness rubbed off on me, but I personally don't think I would be able to get past the worry when I screw up from being so forward, which doesn't seem to be too much of a problem with ESTps. They kinda show me how to cut back and live a little, or a lot rather, seize what I have and run with it. My sister happens to be one, and sometimes I feel put off because I can tell I'm one of her 'resources' and I'm usually aware when someone is being manipulative. A lot of times she'd take my ideas and run with them, being a lot more 'profitable' about it because I wasn't really out there, or really very concerned with being profitable. When it comes to ESTp acquaintances, they tend to come off acting like teenagers, and I usually have to be in the right mood to handle that.

    I've had a few ENFj friends, and the saying that comes to mind when I think of them specifically is "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." When they are trying to help and stand up as a friend, I am usually genuinely touched by how much effort they put into making me feel better, and I try to be a little bit more forward with my motivations as well. But a lot of times they go past boundaries in social arenas and can get not only themselves in trouble, but me, which makes me really uncomfortable. I admire how forthright and unmoving they are to their moral convictions, but sometimes I wish they realized not everyone shares that point of view. The ENFjs I have come in contact with usually played with emotional extremes, and by the time they feel like they solved their conflicts, bridges are burned and so was everyone in their wake when things go sour. But when everything does go well, it's very uplifting and comforting having an ENFj friend. There are just times when I can't handle the extremes.

    The only time I've ever really talked with an ISTJ for a long enough conversation was actually flirting lol It wasn't something serious, but I found it interesting in how sure he was about everything, though all I could really see was everything I wasn't, and if we had gotten into an argument, we most likely would have ended up strangling each other. But it was like meeting someone who had every strength in the things I was lacking and not confident in, it was kinda intriguing but also rather odd lol

    There have been a few INFps popping up in my life lately, and they are the most enigmatic of the betas for me. They are steadfast in what they feel, but the ones I know are rather subtle and evasive when it comes to going out to do what they want. But, like the rest of my beta experiences, I felt like I was playing with extremes rather than finding the grey in between. I don't know if I feel that way because of being an ENFp, but it's a type of thinking I haven't grasped, but then again, makes me less active than the betas overall I imagine.
    ENFp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I actually agree that capitalism, fascism, and probably even things like slavery (I refer to the ancient institution that is thousands of years old, not just the most recent and famous historical example) result from Se-Ni.

    However, also lots of things that got humankind "going". Se-Ni is what pushes forward, not necessarily always in "good" directions.
    You make sense, but I think you're missing the big picture. A hundred million of years ago the world was populated by lots of species that were quite successful surviving at the time and their features were all useful, just like the supposed functions of socionics. However, many of those useful features disappeared over time, not because they stopped being useful, but because evolution is a path of choices and not all features can remain over time simultaneously. You can't be small and agile, and big and strong, at the same time. You have to make a choice between those options and what we are today is just the result of that long list of choices that we've made over time.

    The same happens with socionics. The simple idea that all types have the same importance in a society is a fallacy, because it defies what I stated above. A way of thinking will prove to be more useful in general compared to others and the rest will cease to exist. New ways of thinking will be created, and they will also be discarded over time.

    So when I say that we could live fine without betas, or gammas, or anything else, it's because we're doing fine without hair in the skin. In theory we lost the ability to remain warm in cold weather, but that's in theory.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Yeah, one can learn from betas.

    I hate ESTp being so negative all the time; like they are always watching their backs. I remember that I entered a friend's house and his ESTp son followed me quietly because he thought I could steal something... fucking annoying attitude, but I think that it's a bad thing to not know who are your friends (Fi PoLR).

    In any case, that saves the day pretty often. I remember that I was about to cut aluminum on an abrasive cut-off saw and this guy came to check me and then told me not to do it and instead use the metal saw. If I had used such a saw I would probably had ruined the disc and maybe even caused an accident, because aluminum melts and clogs the disc and it heats up pretty quickly by friction until it falls apart.

    But no one will convince me that betas are on the same level as alphas or deltas. It seems to me that Se and Ni are a poisonous combination. Capitalism, fascism... the worst things we know seem to come from that loop.
    This is funny because previously you were complaining that your ENFJ mother doesn't shell out cash to you on a regular basis to be considered a worthy mother. Hahha!
    Lefty
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I actually agree that capitalism, fascism, and probably even things like slavery (I refer to the ancient institution that is thousands of years old, not just the most recent and famous historical example) result from Se-Ni.

    However, also lots of things that got humankind "going". Se-Ni is what pushes forward, not necessarily always in "good" directions.

    Oh I fully disagree...I think slavery and capitalism are much more a result of si-ne ... how can i make money off of the masses. how can i conspire to keep money, have cheap labor. maybe se-ni conceptualized it, but si-ne institutionalized it.
    Lefty
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I actually agree that capitalism, fascism, and probably even things like slavery (I refer to the ancient institution that is thousands of years old, not just the most recent and famous historical example) result from Se-Ni.

    However, also lots of things that got humankind "going". Se-Ni is what pushes forward, not necessarily always in "good" directions.

    Oh I fully disagree...I think slavery and capitalism are much more a result of si-ne ... how can i make money off of the masses. how can i conspire to keep money, have cheap labor. maybe se-ni conceptualized it, but si-ne institutionalized it.
    Oh great. . . now we are all going to start blaming each other for who destroyed the world with slavery and capitalism. . .
    EII 4w5

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    We can try to talk about how to make the world a better place instead. That would be much more difficult, but perhaps more worthy of passions.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    This is funny because previously you were complaining that your ENFJ mother doesn't shell out cash to you on a regular basis to be considered a worthy mother. Hahha!
    Never said that. I actually don't ask my parents for money. I mostly stand up for my INTj dad.

    The problem with ENFj is that they are too visceral so they experience emotions too strongly. By itself that's not a problem, but what about negative emotions such as guilt? ENFj become extremely avoidant of unpleasant emotions over time, just as they seek for the pleasant ones with mindless "passion". So in order to avoid such unpleasant feelings they develop a shell around them which uses their intelligence to justify their behavior at all costs.

    So the problem lies right there: they never admit that they are wrong, ever. Just imagine how life is with a person that is never willing to review their behavior, not to mention attempting to correct it.

    Just to illustrate the difference in thinking between an ENFj and an INTj parent:

    INTj: "My children are my children to the day I die and I will support and stand up for them until that day."
    ENFj: "This house is mine and I want everyone out by tomorrow!"

    Note: My father put like 80-90% of the money to purchase the house and allowed my mother to have the house to her name because he trusted her... at the time.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    This is funny because previously you were complaining that your ENFJ mother doesn't shell out cash to you on a regular basis to be considered a worthy mother. Hahha!
    Never said that. I actually don't ask my parents for money. I mostly stand up for my INTj dad.

    The problem with ENFj is that they are too visceral so they experience emotions too strongly. By itself that's not a problem, but what about negative emotions such as guilt? ENFj become extremely avoidant of unpleasant emotions over time, just as they seek for the pleasant ones with mindless "passion". So in order to avoid such unpleasant feelings they develop a shell around them which uses their intelligence to justify their behavior at all costs.

    So the problem lies right there: they never admit that they are wrong, ever. Just imagine how life is with a person that is never willing to review their behavior, not to mention attempting to correct it.

    Just to illustrate the difference in thinking between an ENFj and an INTj parent:

    INTj: "My children are my children to the day I die and I will support and stand up for them until that day."
    ENFj: "This house is mine and I want everyone out by tomorrow!"

    Note: My father put like 80-90% of the money to purchase the house and allowed my mother to have the house to her name because he trusted her... at the time.
    The corrector of your quadrant is basically therapy or counseling...are you getting it? Are you in therapy? If not then why are you denying the corrector of your quadrant? Shouldn't you be working out your own issues? If you're not in therapy of some kind then I'd consider you statements hypocritical.
    Lefty
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    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    Learning form beta?

    sometimes they have good ideas: http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16819

    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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