Debate between Beta and Delta

[lefty]

I saw something on this NYC am show today....

Jeraldo Rivera and others were discussing a little boy who is an illegal immigrant who was given into foster care. He said he hoped the fact the little boy was set to head back to Mexico wasn't the biggest issue people had. He said it seems to be an immigration issue and part of an anti-hispanic sentiment in the U.S. these days. The other hosts and the audience quickly backtracked and so said oh no no the fact he's going to go back to Mexico has nothign to do with it. So he then shifted his position to say its a foster parent issue..that a child shouldn't be ripped away after bonding with the foster parents.

I agreed with him about it being an immigration issue and an anit-hispanic issue, and it is. That is the biggest issue we're facing these days. But a Delta is willing to take it back for the sake of "peace," and is willing to come out with a new theory that says jack shit and changes nothing for the sake of not getting other people upset.

Deltas can be so completely full of shit. The moral of the story is that ENFJs and Betas stick to topics that are both difficult and true, while Deltas bend to sell issues, and to not rock the boat. Betas are a force for change and Deltas are force for medocrity.

[xyz]

This surely is an objective, unbiased opinion.

[UDP]

Deltas can be so completely full of shit. The moral of the story is that ENFJs and Betas stick to topics that are both difficult and true, while Deltas bend to sell issues, and to not rock the boat. Betas are a force for change and Deltas are force for medocrity.

[ThePeddler]

I agree..In my experience, Deltas try more to blend their opinion and soften the edge of their sentiments, while Beta's try to grasp and keep their opinion, making sure everyone knows what side they're on.

I don't see what he said as biased...he was just stating..a fact (idk what to call it...)...maybe his choice of words made it appear biased...

[UDP]

I agreed with him about it being an immigration issue and an anit-hispanic issue, and it is. That is the biggest issue we're facing these days.

You believe immigration is the biggest problem America faces? Or were you referring to something else.

Hey, GBush Senior is LSE, apparently. How do you feel about him?


[hr:2d332c29f5]
The obvious problem with......

Beta's try to grasp and keep their opinion, making sure everyone knows what side they're on.

when that leads too....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_flowers (Mao as beta ST ?)

Some concluded that Mao knew the outcome before the campaign had even began. The Hundred Flower Campaign identified critics and was used to silence them.

...or....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/******#The_Holocaust (****** as ENFj)

One of the foundations of ******'s and the NSDAP's social policies was the concept of racial hygiene. It was based on the ideas of Arthur de Gobineau, eugenics, and social Darwinism. Applied to human beings, "survival of the fittest" was interpreted as requiring racial purity and killing off "life unworthy of life." The first victims were crippled and retarded children in a program dubbed Action T4.[46] After a public outcry, ****** made a show of ending this program, but the killings in fact continued.

[hr:2d332c29f5]


......my point is not that betas are terrible, no. You can find negative examples of deltas as well. But when you say things like this,

Deltas can be so completely full of shit. The moral of the story is that ENFJs and Betas stick to topics that are both difficult and true, while Deltas bend to sell issues, and to not rock the boat. Betas are a force for change and Deltas are force for medocrity.

you sound like you don't want to admit that beta's strengths can be used for good or bad things, just like deltas can. Betas can be so completely full of shit, too.

So really, people can be so full of shit, sometimes.
I say this mostly because your kind of talk profanes socionics - you are using normative terms on something that is purely positive (the economics use of those terms).


PS: I say this more as a warning - I have made numerous comments like this in the past, largely about betas, too, making generalizations about them as a whole. I also believe I profaned socionics when I did that.

[UDP]

I agree..In my experience, Deltas try more to blend their opinion and soften the edge of their sentiments, while Beta's try to grasp and keep their opinion, making sure everyone knows what side they're on.

Perhaps that is the difference between some NFs in beta and delta. I know delta STs who are anything but blending in their opinions.

I can see....

Delta

Betas tend to regard Delta types as noncommittal in their unwillingness to support goals decided in a group, lack of drive, and ethical self-righteousness. Rather than back group efforts that require vision and concentration of effort, Delta types prefer to just work on personal projects.

...

Deltas tend to see Beta types as people who "dream big" and always want to turn things into grandiose endeavors, yet can't manage day-to-day affairs effectively. Also, Beta types seem unwilling to consider things from the point of view of others, which gives them a streak of meanness and cruelty.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Quadras

... this as being pretty much the case.

[lefty]

The gammas are the ones who are lead by the feildmarshal (obviously a war-like quadrant). And Deltas are the ones that dangerously softline on issues and skip over valid analysis of them, because its too complex for them. To imply that examples of Betas are Mao, George W. Bush, or ****** is fucking absurd! Get out of my topic!

[aka-kitsune]

This surely is an objective, unbiased opinion.

[lefty]

This surely is an objective, unbiased opinion.

yeah well maybe if you want one of those you should head over to the Delta quadrant where they'll alter the content of their opinons to be popular and make money. where their opinons are "unbiased and objective," and also where they manage to say absolutely nothing.

[xyz]

We don't value the same things you do, get over yourself.

[lefty]

We don't value the same things you do, get over yourself.

do you value anything besides sarcasm?

[Slacker]

This surely is an objective, unbiased opinion.

yeah well maybe if you want one of those you should head over to the Delta quadrant where they'll alter the content of their opinons to be popular and make money. where their opinons are "unbiased and objective," and also where they manage to say absolutely nothing.

OK I have to admit this is funny.

[Kristiina]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

[UDP]

Delta

Betas tend to regard Delta types as noncommittal in their unwillingness to support goals decided in a group, lack of drive, and ethical self-righteousness. Rather than back group efforts that require vision and concentration of effort, Delta types prefer to just work on personal projects.

...

Deltas tend to see Beta types as people who "dream big" and always want to turn things into grandiose endeavors, yet can't manage day-to-day affairs effectively. Also, Beta types seem unwilling to consider things from the point of view of others, which gives them a streak of meanness and cruelty.

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Quadras

HEY LISTEN UP QUICK
YOU'RE A RETARD

The gammas are the ones who are lead by the feildmarshal (obviously a war-like quadrant). And Deltas are the ones that dangerously softline on issues and skip over valid analysis of them, because its too complex for them. To imply that examples of Betas are Mao, George W. Bush, or ****** is fucking absurd! Get out of my topic!

BUSH IS AN EXAMPLE OF an LSE, not a BETA!!

DEAL WITH PEOPLE HAVING OTHER OPINIONS THAN YOUR OWN - THIS IS THE REAL WORLD.
****** IS TYPED AS an EIE LAST I HEARD, and ON THE FORUM PEOPLE AGREED MAO WAS BETA ST - SO SUCK ON THAT.


[/betaspeak]


I swear, talking to betas sometimes is like talking to dogs. It does not matter what you say at all, just the tone of your voice.
You didn't even read what I wrote, which is not surprising, because it doesn't make you look good.

......my point is not that betas are terrible, no. You can find negative examples of deltas as well. But when you say things like this,

So really, people can be so full of shit, sometimes.
I say this mostly because your kind of talk profanes socionics - you are using normative terms on something that is purely positive (the economics use of those terms).

[UDP]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

Betas have to also learn that it is not just about them or what they think, and that there are other people and ideas in this world. Negatively, they can refuse to acknowledge checks and balances and can be so concerned with voicing their own opinion that they don't listen to anyone else.

Yes, the fire and passion of beta quadra is a huge asset to the world. But with that 'power' comes responsibility, so you have to accept that. Make sure you are changing towards something good, and not just for the benefit of a very small amount of people.

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes.

Imagine how you annoy them.


The main issue is correct in that there are differences between the two quadras, that is for sure.

[Blaze]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

it's the same old Fe/Ti vs Fi/Te stuff.

[xyz]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

Betas have to also learn that it is not just about them or what they think, and that there are other people and ideas in this world. Negatively, they can refuse to acknowledge checks and balances and can be so concerned with voicing their own opinion that they don't listen to anyone else.

Yes, the fire and passion of beta quadra is a huge asset to the world. But with that 'power' comes responsibility, so you have to accept that. Make sure you are changing towards something good, and not just for the benefit of a very small amount of people.

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes.

Imagine how you annoy them.


The main issue is correct in that there are differences between the two quadras, that is for sure.

QTF Sir.

[Kim]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

In that case, I officially declare myself Beta.

Generally it's Ne. It is frustrating when people just keep pounding on with their opinion and refuse to consider alternatives or real life application. That would be
the conflict. It has nothing to do with not wanting change.

[Slacker]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

In that case, I officially declare myself Beta.

Generally it's Ne. It is frustrating when people just keep pounding on with their opinion and refuse to consider alternatives or real life application. That would be
the conflict. It has nothing to do with not wanting change.

*insert nodding head icon here*

[Animal]

"Those who speak do not know;
Those who know do not speak."
- Lao Tzu

While I've got pretty strong convictions on many issues, there are others where a more open-minded, non-reductionist approach is needed for dialogue of any productive value to emerge.

[Kristiina]

I dunno... The forum is so full of people who actually sincerely admire ESTjs and there is generally a lot of anti-Fe talk. I still sometimes think that threads in beta quarda should not be allowd to have MOST posts by deltas (I mean the STs here) who come here to say why betas suck so much. And Baby, your quote only works if you actually meant that stupid betas don't even know what they are talking about. I don't mind if you're anti-beta, but then please make it clear that you're ENFp and stop saying that you are super-extra special different kind of INFp.

[xyz]

I dunno... The forum is so full of people who actually sincerely admire ESTjs and there is generally a lot of anti-Fe talk. I still sometimes think that threads in beta quarda should not be allowd to have MOST posts by deltas (I mean the STs here) who come here to say why betas suck so much. And Baby, your quote only works if you actually meant that stupid betas don't even know what they are talking about. I don't mind if you're anti-beta, but then please make it clear that you're ENFp and stop saying that you are super-extra special different kind of INFp.

Hey now I don't say any group of people suck I pretty much hate everyone on an individual level, if I hate at all. And I do not hate Kristina.

[Kristiina]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

In that case, I officially declare myself Beta.

Generally it's Ne. It is frustrating when people just keep pounding on with their opinion and refuse to consider alternatives or real life application. That would be
the conflict. It has nothing to do with not wanting change.

*insert nodding head icon here*

Well... I don't like that delta NFs avoid the conflict. That means that the issue never gets settled. The beta way is to solve the issues once and for all. INFps sometimes avoid conflict by saying "well, that's what I believe, but if you don't agree, I can't change your mind". Deltas just say "ok" and change the topic. And that feels like unfinished business to me.

[Exodus]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes.

Imagine how you annoy them.

With Fi & Si, Delta is the quadra that most loves to express annoyance.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Kristiina]

I dunno... The forum is so full of people who actually sincerely admire ESTjs and there is generally a lot of anti-Fe talk. I still sometimes think that threads in beta quarda should not be allowd to have MOST posts by deltas (I mean the STs here) who come here to say why betas suck so much. And Baby, your quote only works if you actually meant that stupid betas don't even know what they are talking about. I don't mind if you're anti-beta, but then please make it clear that you're ENFp and stop saying that you are super-extra special different kind of INFp.

Hey now I don't say any group of people suck I pretty much hate everyone on an individual level, if I hate at all. And I do not hate Kristina.

I don't mind if you would hate me a little (generally, as one of the ENFjs). I just don't like the general beta-bashing. When someone mentions beta, some asshole starts talking about ****** and I think it's wrong and mean.

[xyz]

Well... I don't like that delta NFs avoid the conflict. That means that the issue never gets settled. The beta way is to solve the issues once and for all. INFps sometimes avoid conflict by saying "well, that's what I believe, but if you don't agree, I can't change your mind". Deltas just say "ok" and change the topic. And that feels like unfinished business to me.

Speaking for myself, It's nothing personal I just don't give a flying fuck. I mean, really, have it your way if you care so much. Now mind you i'm not like that about everything, because I will defend whatever I personally believe is worth defending. It just feels like , when you keep bringing the issue up, that you're trying to change my mind, and that is NOT cool. WHY CAN'T YOU ACCEPT ME

Edit: And
"I don't mind if you would hate me a little (generally, as one of the ENFjs)"... You're telling me to hate you!??! Why??

[Kristiina]

I dunno... The forum is so full of people who actually sincerely admire ESTjs and there is generally a lot of anti-Fe talk. I still sometimes think that threads in beta quarda should not be allowd to have MOST posts by deltas (I mean the STs here) who come here to say why betas suck so much. And Baby, your quote only works if you actually meant that stupid betas don't even know what they are talking about. I don't mind if you're anti-beta, but then please make it clear that you're ENFp and stop saying that you are super-extra special different kind of INFp.

Different from what? He seems very similar to vague to me, and also similar in ways to misutii, as well as other INFps, like Starfall. He doesn't seem at all like any of the ENFps. . .

I relate to most INFps on the forum. Maybe just not to the male ones... And his quote was totally misplaced. And if he meant it the way I think he meant it, it's also slightly non-Fe, because it goes against the group where he himself should fit.

[shakealittle]

I'm going to check out how this fight goes before I comment on Betas Vs Deltas

[Kristiina]

Well... I don't like that delta NFs avoid the conflict. That means that the issue never gets settled. The beta way is to solve the issues once and for all. INFps sometimes avoid conflict by saying "well, that's what I believe, but if you don't agree, I can't change your mind". Deltas just say "ok" and change the topic. And that feels like unfinished business to me.

Speaking for myself, It's nothing personal I just don't give a flying fuck. I mean, really, have it your way if you care so much. Now mind you i'm not like that about everything, because I will defend whatever I personally believe is worth defending. It just feels like , when you keep bringing the issue up, that you're trying to change my mind, and that is NOT cool. WHY CAN'T YOU ACCEPT ME

Edit: And
"I don't mind if you would hate me a little (generally, as one of the ENFjs)"... You're telling me to hate you!??! Why??

ISTps make me feel all guilty by totally pissing me off every now and then - to the point of momentary hatred - and then act all and friendly and expect that the negativity throughout the interactions don't mean anything. I've had the worst relationships with ISTps and we still maintain the feeling that generally it's all ok, because we have been friends so long. But I treat them with caution like expecting them to always say the thing that would most piss me off. I actually thought you think of me as an overemotional typical predictable ENFj. If I stop assuming that, then all our interactions seem weird in hindsight. If you think of me as a friend (in the wide sense of the word), we're at twilight zone.

[Kristiina]

I'm going to check out how this fight goes before I comment on Betas Vs Deltas

lol
you're gonna have to take over then because I have to go to sleep now.

[UDP]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes.

Imagine how you annoy them.

With Fi & Si, Delta is the quadra that most loves to express annoyance.

Hm. Really?

I suppose I can see that.

[Slacker]

Although I think this thread is very conflict oriented, I think the main issue is totally correct. I keep seeing delta NFs back down from discussions and quietly frown at my opinions. It annoys me sometimes. And they pick safe topics, which seem a bit like a waste of time - noting is really said there. Beta is a force of change and being proud of voicing your opinion!

In that case, I officially declare myself Beta.

Generally it's Ne. It is frustrating when people just keep pounding on with their opinion and refuse to consider alternatives or real life application. That would be
the conflict. It has nothing to do with not wanting change.

*insert nodding head icon here*

Well... I don't like that delta NFs avoid the conflict. That means that the issue never gets settled. The beta way is to solve the issues once and for all. INFps sometimes avoid conflict by saying "well, that's what I believe, but if you don't agree, I can't change your mind". Deltas just say "ok" and change the topic. And that feels like unfinished business to me.

I can see how it would feel that way to someone who values Se. To me, if someone continues arguing after it's clear no consensus can be reached, it feels like unnecessary conflict and shit-stirring.

Maybe this is a good thing to remember when people in Whats My Type can't figure out whether they're ENFj or ENFp.

[Exodus]

I dunno... The forum is so full of people who actually sincerely admire ESTjs and there is generally a lot of anti-Fe talk. I still sometimes think that threads in beta quarda should not be allowd to have MOST posts by deltas (I mean the STs here) who come here to say why betas suck so much. And Baby, your quote only works if you actually meant that stupid betas don't even know what they are talking about. I don't mind if you're anti-beta, but then please make it clear that you're ENFp and stop saying that you are super-extra special different kind of INFp.

Hey now I don't say any group of people suck I pretty much hate everyone on an individual level, if I hate at all. And I do not hate Kristina.

I don't mind if you would hate me a little (generally, as one of the ENFjs). I just don't like the general beta-bashing. When someone mentions beta, some asshole starts talking about ****** and I think it's wrong and mean.

I like ******. ****** is my homeboy.

[xyz]

ISTps make me feel all guilty by totally pissing me off every now and then - to the point of momentary hatred - and then act all and friendly and expect that the negativity throughout the interactions don't mean anything. I've had the worst relationships with ISTps and we still maintain the feeling that generally it's all ok, because we have been friends so long. But I treat them with caution like expecting them to always say the thing that would most piss me off. I actually thought you think of me as an overemotional typical predictable ENFj. If I stop assuming that, then all our interactions seem weird in hindsight. If you think of me as a friend (in the wide sense of the word), we're at twilight zone.

The reason we can turn it off and on like that is because, well, we get angry, then in 5 minutes it just passes... I can't really explain it. Trust me when I say that when it seems like we've let it go too easily, it is because we can let go very easily! It's not a ploy And I know one ENFj and she seems like a total wack job but I can't help but love her.

And I don't think of you as an overemotional ENFj because I honestly only know 1 in reality, and then I sorta know you through this very limited medium called the intarweb. Why do our interactions seem weird? I can be a friend

[Slacker]

The reason we can turn it off and on like that is because, well, we get angry, then in 5 minutes it just passes... I can't really explain it. Trust me when I say that when it seems like we've let it go too easily, it is because we can let go very easily! It's not a ploy

That's . When I get upset or angry, my husband says, " ." Except he spells it, "Relax. It isn't a big deal." He lets it go, and he helps me let it go. No fighting! Such bliss!!

[Animal]

I dunno... The forum is so full of people who actually sincerely admire ESTjs and there is generally a lot of anti-Fe talk. I still sometimes think that threads in beta quarda should not be allowd to have MOST posts by deltas (I mean the STs here) who come here to say why betas suck so much. And Baby, your quote only works if you actually meant that stupid betas don't even know what they are talking about. I don't mind if you're anti-beta, but then please make it clear that you're ENFp and stop saying that you are super-extra special different kind of INFp.

You're a fucking idiot.

[Slacker]

I don't know about this ENFp claim, but I must say that your sig quote sure sounds -ish to me.

[Animal]

I thought it was Merry > Serious.

[Slacker]

I thought it was Merry > Serious.

Maybe it's in the eye of the beholder or something. It sounds Si to me.