ESFjs: feeling left out among other alpha types?

[Gilly]

Alpha Quadra is an awesome Quadra to be in. We've got a leader (ENTP), a strategist/analyst (INTJ), an artist (ISFP), and a good old friendly chum (ESFJ). However, it seems that our chum seems to het left out alot; being an ENTP, I have very little intellectual regard for ESFJs, and view them (in general) as the "average Joes" of the world. All other three Alpha Quadra types have a little bit of a unique, mysterious streak: the INTJ's highly evolved, intuition driven brain and logic-oriented thought process, the ISFP's drive for creative inspiration, and the ENTP's characteristic mental quickness that overshadows the internal need for acceptance. Where does the ESFJ contribute? Rooting us to the ground when we're trying to fly?

Do the ESFJs here (if there are any) feel a bit "left out" when set in the middle of these three creative giants? I mean, an ISFP is still an S, but is probably the closest thing to an intuitive type that the S types have, whereas the ESFJ is one of the types most distant from N-type thought.

Any thoughts? Anyone else ever thought about this?

[Megan]

gilligan87 socionics ENFP like it says in your sig and MBTI ENTP?

[MySaviour]

man... I thought it would be the opposite of that. What I mean is, I would think the ESFj would have to carry the group in the real world, because they are the ones who could get along with everyone. Alot of ENTps spend their whole lives starving for attention and acceptance, but never get it because they lack the social skills (which comes with work for the ESFj) and the INTj is soo stuck in his mind that he doesn't even realize whats going on, and the ISFp, well, thats a different story.

I would think the ESFj would be the spokesperson for the Alpha Quadra. Maybe they would feel intellectually inferior? I doubt it. Maybe they would feel like they are not needed? This is possible, but again, I doubt it.

I dunno. Everything seems well balanced in alpha.

[Gilly]

Well, I'm actually borderline on socionics (ENT/FP), but it makes for a nice variation to say that it's ENFP

[metaiwan]

Let me defend the ESFjs because I like them. ISFps are not really N seeming at all.
Besides, I don't like the idea that the objective to life is an intellectual one. The other half of life is living it. In their own quadra, nobody is going to feel inferior, if someone explains something it's not a critic, it's something new they've learned.

[Gilly]

Very wise.

As for ISFPs being more intellectual than other S's, well, that's just my experience.

I don't think anyone could be the spokesperson. There's way too much variation. ENTP and ESFJ are the standard bearers for two entirely different ways of thinking and acting.

[metaiwan]

I suppose it's true their intuition(although in their superego role function) is further up the line than ESFjs.

[Megan]

As for ISFPs being more intellectual than other S's, well, that's just my experience.

Where are these intellectual ISFps hiding out? gilligan87, in what ways do you find ISFps to be intellectual? They so often seem practical and uninterested in theory.

[Megan]

Where is the disrespect in questioning the intellectualism of ISFps?

Is it a disrespect to say someone is practical rather than theoretical?

[Gilly]

Theory can be practical. Theory being practical is what human ingenuity is all about.

[science as magic]

you've obviously not encountered crazy artistic esfjs (like an inverted crazy artistic isfp), the subtle esfj political masters (like french aristocracy heh), or 'observational genius' esfjs who can capture the heart of something quite vividly whether it be in a literary masterpiece or in hard-core statistical analysis. also i think you give far too much credit to entps who often are the "lazy bums" of the alpha quadra.

[Megan]

Herzblut

What do you think it means to be intellectual?

Non theoretical & lack of intellectualism does not necessarily imply simplicity.

[Rocky]

ISFPs (SEIs) are not more "intuitive" unless you have a distorted view of what intuitive types are. ISFPs are creative, fun, unique people, but that doesn' make them intuitive. Intuitive types are simply types who DON'T get neurotic about the worst case scenario happening and DO have distorted sense perceptions.

And "Intelligence" is supposively tied to the rational functions, which are T and F.

[Megan]

Herzblut

What do you think it means to be intellectual?

The question what do you Herzblut think it means to be intellectual, not what http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=intellectual says it means.

If you're using it as a noun as you did in that sentence, the watered down definition would be a "smart person." Likewise, if you use it as an adjective, the quick definition would be "smart."
Not all "smart people" would necesarily be intellectual.

Therefore, by saying that one is less intellectual because they're a sensory type is pretty much the same thing as saying that all sensory types are stupid. Even if that's not what you meant, that's exactly what your post implied.
The type being discussed is ISFps not all sensory types. Various sensory types have different interests and inclinations don't they?

[MySaviour]

ISFPs (SEIs) are not more "intuitive" unless you have a distorted view of what intuitive types are. ISFPs are creative, fun, unique people, but that doesn' make them intuitive. Intuitive types are simply types who DON'T get neurotic about the worst case scenario happening and DO have distorted sense perceptions.

And "Intelligence" is supposively tied to the rational functions, which are T and F.

People with Se first come the closest to being "intuitive." Its like spiderman.. his senses are so highly tuned, it verges upon precognition (just had to get that in there).

[Megan]

Intuitive types are simply types who DON'T get neurotic about the worst case scenario happening and DO have distorted sense perceptions.

Really?

[Rocky]

Intuitive types are simply types who DON'T get neurotic about the worst case scenario happening and DO have distorted sense perceptions.

Really?

Well, there are other things, but that's a basic quality.

[Megan]

Intuitive types are simply types who DON'T get neurotic about the worst case scenario happening and DO have distorted sense perceptions.

Sorry Rocky but some Intuitives Do get very neurotic about the worst case scenario happening. Just ask a few people from certain intuitive types.

[Rocky]

According to Jung, sensors repress their intuitions to the point of of them subconciously surfacing in ways that distort their conceptions. Intuitives feel more confident that their intuitions are pure so it is not a point of neurosis for them. All the functions are always present in everybody, but the "weaker" ones can twist around the information.

[Megan]

Intuitives feel more confident that their intuitions are pure so it is not a point of neurosis for them.

Some intuitives do not always feel a great amount of confidence in their intuition and many intuitives often second guess it.

Even if the intuitions were deemed "pure" the intuition might point to a worst case scenario and the intuitive may get neurotic about it.

NTs might not be as prone to this but some NFs are.

[Rocky]

Some intuitives do not always feel a great amount of confidence in their intuition and many intuitives often second guess it.

.. explain how? If you're talking about having an "intution" and then ignoring it because you feel like it is not right, that sounds more like a sensor to me...

Even if the intuitions were deemed "pure" the intuition might point to a worst case scenario and the intuitive may get neurotic about it.

Well, if something REALLY was wrong...

[Megan]

Some intuitives do not always feel a great amount of confidence in their intuition and many intuitives often second guess it.

... explain how? If you're talking about having an "intution" and then ignoring it because you feel like it is not right, that sounds more like a sensor to me...

It is that intuitives are often filled with doubts despite their intuition, they just don't show it at times. Sensors have more concrete reality to rely on about things. Even at socionics.org it says that. Look at the Sensing vs. Intuition section here

http://www.socionics.com/main/types.htm

[Megan]

Rocky, In addition to have above, intuitives often doubts their own intelligence{some INT* speak frequently of this}, knowledge, feelings, values, potentials, plans and many other things.

[xiuxiu]

i didn't read the thread, but how many esfj's do you know that walk around worrying about their significance in some obscure psychological socio-construct theory?

[Ms. Kensington]

you've obviously not encountered crazy artistic esfjs (like an inverted crazy artistic isfp), the subtle esfj political masters (like french aristocracy heh), or 'observational genius' esfjs who can capture the heart of something quite vividly whether it be in a literary masterpiece or in hard-core statistical analysis. also i think you give far too much credit to entps who often are the "lazy bums" of the alpha quadra.

hm where can i find such a crazy artistic ESFj? hardcore statistical analysis? what?

[mimisor]

you've obviously not encountered crazy artistic esfjs (like an inverted crazy artistic isfp), the subtle esfj political masters (like french aristocracy heh), or 'observational genius' esfjs who can capture the heart of something quite vividly whether it be in a literary masterpiece or in hard-core statistical analysis. also i think you give far too much credit to entps who often are the "lazy bums" of the alpha quadra.

Pedro is right. i think i've encountered one in this field of hard core political analysis.

So why do they still need us, INTjs? Tbey practically can get along with almost anyone and are very good with analysis and theories and such things an INTj is supposed to be.

It looks like we need our dual more than an ESFj would actually need us...

[science as magic]

i would say they need us to "keep them sharp" just like we need them for the same reason. you can find smart esfjs almost anywhere you can find other smart people. i know i've belaboured this point but i think a lot of the time smart Ss and Fs are mistaken for Ns and Ts. my estj cousin is probably the brightest person i know. he does work involving cryptographic applications in software and always skipped classes in college. i can almost guarantee that he would think he was an N type if he ran across typology stuff. he even abuses his health/body and gets little sleep but he is not N. by contrast i know plenty of NTs who end up as virtual bums because of their potential lack of drive. the key in my opinion is to look at their personal lives. the esfj i mentioned spends lots of time gardening for example and she seems to be somewhat lonely because (according to her) men are intimidated that she has a Ph.d.

I really think people misunderstand Si... to me it is like Ni in a lot of ways... bah i'd better not get off topic. Anyway, yeah.. smart esfjs rock.

P.S. my cousin used to build computers as a hobby when he was like 11 or so. i think many "intuitives" are really sensors and I think many actual intuitive thinkers are really really stupid.

[mimisor]

Pedro, you are right about INTjs thinking their dual is too cool, you said it somewhere else.

Anyway, I think INTjs feel left out in real life, not ESFjs

[Rocky]

Yes, Si is somewhat like Ni. They are the two daydreaming funcitons.

[Creepy-hihi]

ESFJ cannot get along with everyone. True they do get along with a wide variety but the one annoyance to them are the rationals. Of course rationals comprising of around 5%-7% of the population shouldn't get in the way of majority though right?

[MySaviour]

ESFJ cannot get along with everyone. True they do get along with a wide variety but the one annoyance to them are the rationals. Of course rationals comprising of around 5%-7% of the population shouldn't get in the way of majority though right?

I naturally offend ESFJ's more than they offend me. I suppose that's what they get for being so damn emotional. ha!

Don't get me wrong, they annoy me. But nowadays, they I offend them without opening my mouth, looking in their direction, or noticing that they are even there. In all truth, I suppose that's why.

I'm INTP.

[science as magic]

you should learn to interact positively with esfjs. i have learned to do this with esfps and have benefited dramatically from it. the only problem i have left with them (perhaps with all extraverted feelers) is that i cannot keep up with their desired level of sociability. i find that as the years go by extraverts seem to "calm down" a bit and it gets easier to interact with them because they have done the partying thing and are now interested in developing other aspects of their personality.

[Kirana]

ok, my best friend is ESFx, most probably ESFJ. if i were to say that she isn't naturally intellectual because of her sensor tendency, she would say, "You are right." she won't get offended, or think that i just said she's stupid. she does not find it engrossing to obsess over theories and hypothetical systemic ideas, nor is she interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake. between the two of us, that is what we mean when we say that i am the intellectual.

which is not to say that she is incapable of knowledge or intellect. she is, but she isn't inordinately interested in it. she'd hear me discuss it (is in fact the only close friend who will), discuss my theories and thoughts with me, or endure listening to me go on and on about them, but she isn't interested to pursue it herself or spend time working out kinks in theories in her free time. she'd rather watch tv. and she is secure enough in herself to be ok with that! :wink: besides, being my best friend and witnessing close up the travails associated with being INTJ, she's probably smart enough to know that in many things, she's actually got dealt better cards than me.

besides, who do you think i watched to pick up and learn how normal people deal with social interactions and how normal people think of others? if i seem remarkably well-adjusted sometimes for an INTj, it's because i managed to have her for a best friend, and was smart enough to realise i could probably fix my weak points by observing how she does it. and i've been doing that for 10 years, you see. i guess from her i learned how to appear normal with people, which i am able to do now (passably well) when i need to.

[science as magic]

i find that interest tends to vary with the amount of exposure one has to a concept. so an intj who is raised in a small farming community will not be as "intellectual" as an esfj born to two parents who are academics. however, i am reticent to use the word intellectual because of the connotations involved with the word. i find many esfjs in my area to be more mentally astute than many introverted intuitives because they have more "drive" which can translate to higher success rates in many areas including the aquisition of knowledge.

[Kirana]

agreed, pedro. i was more thinking along the lines of all other things being more or less equal. similar socio-economic niche, similar education level, etc.

my friend is a doctor. basically the key difference in the way we treat knowledge is that she values her medical knowledge primarily in terms of what it enables her to do - cure sick people, having a career with stability, etc. which is why she became a doctor. me - i'd actively acquire knowledge even if it's unrelated to what i do, or would ever offer me any benefit. it's the difference in attitude towards knowledge acquisition and how the two types view knowledge that's key, IMO.