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Thread: Possible description of INTp-ESFp duality

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    lefty's Avatar
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    Default Possible description of INTp-ESFp duality

    I came across this article and while I as an ENFJ, don't relate to to that well it very much reminds me of the INTP ESFP couple I had for bosses:

    Things are seldom what they seem
    Altruism, according to the text books, has two forms. One is known technically as kin selection, and familiarly as nepotism. This spreads an individual's genes collaterally, rather than directly, but is otherwise similar to his helping his own offspring. The second form is reciprocal altruism, or “you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours”. It relies on trust, and a good memory for favours given and received, but is otherwise not much different from simultaneous collaboration (such as a wolf pack hunting) in that the benefit exceeds the cost for all parties involved.

    Humans, however, show a third sort of altruism—one that has no obvious pay-off. This is altruism towards strangers, for example, charity. That may enhance reputation. But how does an enhanced reputation weigh in the Darwinian balance?

    To investigate this question, the researchers made an interesting link. At first sight, helping charities looks to be at the opposite end of the selfishness spectrum from conspicuous consumption. Yet they have something in common: both involve the profligate deployment of resources.

    That is characteristic of the consequences of sexual selection. An individual shows he (or she) has resources to burn—whether those are biochemical reserves, time or, in the human instance, money—by using them to make costly signals. That demonstrates underlying fitness of the sort favoured by evolution. Viewed this way, both conspicuous consumption and what the researchers call “blatant benevolence” are costly signals. And since they are behaviours rather than structures, and thus controlled by the brain, they may be part of the mating mind.

    There is, of course, a lot of evidence for the first part of this conjecture. Everybody knows that fast cars attract fast women. The second, though, may come as a surprise. So the team did an experiment to compare them.

    They divided a bunch of volunteers into two groups. Those in one were put into what the researchers hoped would be a “romantic mindset” by being shown pictures of attractive members of the opposite sex. They were each asked to write a description of a perfect date with one of these people. The unlucky members of the other group were shown pictures of buildings and told to write about the weather.

    The participants were then asked two things. The first was to imagine they had $5,000 in the bank. They could spend part or all of it on various luxury items such as a new car, a dinner party at a restaurant or a holiday in Europe. They were also asked what fraction of a hypothetical 60 hours of leisure time during the course of a month they would devote to volunteer work.

    The results were just what the researchers hoped for. In the romantically primed group, the men went wild with the Monopoly money. Conversely, the women volunteered their lives away. Those women continued, however, to be skinflints, and the men remained callously indifferent to those less fortunate than themselves. Meanwhile, in the other group there was little inclination either to profligate spending or to good works. Based on this result, it looks as though the sexes do, indeed, have different strategies for showing off. Moreover, they do not waste their resources by behaving like that all the time. Only when it counts sexually are men profligate and women helpful.

    That result was confirmed by the second experiment which, instead of looking at the amount of spending and volunteering, looked at how conspicuous it was. After all, there is little point in producing a costly signal if no one sees it.

    As predicted, romantically primed men wanted to buy items that they could wear or drive, rather than things to be kept at home. Their motive, therefore, was not mere acquisitiveness. Similarly, romantically primed women volunteered for activities such as working in a shelter for the homeless, rather than spending an afternoon alone picking up rubbish in a park. For both sexes, however, those in an unromantic mood were indifferent to the public visibility of their choices.

    These two studies support the idea, familiar from everyday life, that what women want in a partner is material support while men require self-sacrifice. Conspicuous consumption allows men to demonstrate the former. Blatant benevolence allows women to demonstrate the latter. There is, however, a confounding observation. The most blatant benevolence of all, that of billionaires giving away their fortunes and heroes giving away (or at least risking) their lives, is almost entirely a male phenomenon.

    To examine this, the team did another experiment. They found that when requests for benevolence were financial, rather than time-consuming, romantically primed men were happy to chip in extravagantly. Giving money to charity is thus more akin to conspicuous consumption than it is to blatant benevolence. The primed men were also willing (or at least said they were willing) to act heroically as well as spend—but only if the action suggested was life-threatening. Women, romantically primed or not, weren't.

    Heroism, of course, is a pretty high-risk strategy. But if you survive, you really have proved the quality of your genes. As the old saw has it, faint heart never won fair lady. On the other hand a soft heart, it appears, wins a gentleman.

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    get the hell out of this quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    get the hell out of this quadra.
    stop ruining topics for everyone else. you have zero self control when it comes to not posting in topics youre not interested in.

    lefty
    enfj
    4w5

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    you are hereby put on ignore. goodbye and good riddance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    you are hereby put on ignore. goodbye and good riddance.
    youre not chivalrous at all. which means you dont belong in this topic anyway. f*&% off!
    Lefty
    ENFJ

    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    This article fails in many ways. First off, not everything is tied to evolution. Second, some people do actually give without expecting anything in return. I don't volunteer to make myself look good; I do it to help people. Also, this article tries to say that somehow men don't volunteer, only women do, which is wrong. I don't know if this is what a typical ESFp-INTp relationship looks like. It seems like it would be a rather shallow relationship that may be case specific rather than type related.

    To Niffweed: why are you being so hostile?

    To lefty: In Socionics, people use lower case letters for the last letter of a type. ie: I am an ISFj not ISFJ. It is changed because all caps is used for MBTI and MBTI ISFJ does not equal Socionics ISFj.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy89
    To Niffweed: why are you being so hostile?
    you have here a user that will challenge the greatest of them at thinking as little as possible about what he/she says.

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    Niffweed has built a career out of being unnecessarily hostile, because apparently, that's the way the model INTp behaves
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

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    Not to mention the feeling of superiority he tries to achieve by calling everybody else stupid etc.

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    Creepy-bg

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    if Niffweed was a puppy I'd feed him little bits of cheese and snuggle with him when I was going to sleep.

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    ... say all the Fe quadra types that are unwilling to look at lefty for what his/her arguments are and see how senseless this person truly is.

  12. #12
    Creepy-bg

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    ... say all the Fe quadra types that are unwilling to look at lefty for what his/her arguments are and see how senseless this person truly is.
    The 1975 edition of The Joy of Cooking makes the following distinction between jams and preserves: jams are cooked and gelled fruit purees, while preserves are cooked and gelled un-pureed fruit, which includes a significant portion of whole fruit.

    Fruit butter, is used in this context to refer to a process where the whole fruit is forced through a sieve or blended after the heating process.

    "Fruit butters are generally made from larger fruits, such as apples, plums peaches or grapes. Cook until softened and run through a sieve to give a smooth consistency. After sieving, cook the pulp...add sugar and cook as rapidly as possible with constant stirring... The finished product should mound up when dropped from a spoon, but should not cut like jelly. Neither should there be any free liquid." - Berolzheimer R(ed) et al (1959) [1]


    Fruit curds, primarily lemon or other citrus fruit, contain eggs and butter.


    Fruit spread refers to a jam or preserve with no added sugar.
    Jams, jellies and honeys, Minnesota State Fair
    Jams, jellies and honeys, Minnesota State Fair

    Jam contains both fruit juice and pieces of the fruit's (or vegetable's) flesh[2], however some cookbooks define Jam as cooked and gelled fruit (or vegetable) purees[3].

    Properly, the term jam refers to a product made with whole fruit, cut into pieces or crushed. The fruit is heated with water and sugar to activate the pectin in the fruit. The mixture is then put into containers. The following extract from a US cookbook describes the process.

    "Jams are usually made from pulp and juice of one fruit, rather than a combinations of several fruits. Berries and other small fruits are most frequently used, though larger fruits such as apricots, peaches, or plums cut into small pieces or crushed are also used for jams. Good jam has a soft even consistency without distinct pieces of fruit, a bright color, a good fruit flavor and a semijellied texture that is easy to spread but has no free liquid." - Berolzheimer R(ed) et al (1959) [4]

    Examples:

    * Strawberry jam (sweet, fruit)
    * Mint jelly (savory)
    * Jalapeño pepper jam

    Variations

    Uncooked or minimally cooked (less than 5 minutes) jams, called freezer jam, because they are stored frozen, are popular in parts of North America for their very fresh taste.


    In the US and Canada, the term jelly refers to a type of clear fruit spread consisting of firmed fruit (or vegetable) juice made with pectin[2]. In British English, these products are commonly referred to by the terms fruit spread or preserves, although jelly is also used in some instances for example Mint jelly. Jelly can be made from sweet, savory or hot ingredients. Jelly is made by a similar process to jam, with the additional step of filtering out the fruit pulp after the initial heating. A cloth "jelly bag" is traditionally used as a filter.

    "Good jelly is clear and sparkling and has a fresh flavor of the fruit from which it is made. It is tender enough to quiver when moved, but holds angles when cut.
    EXTRACTING JUICE - Pectin is best extracted from the fruit by heat, therefore cook the fruit until soft before straining to obtain the juice ... Pour cooked fruit into a jelly bag which has been wrung out of cold water. Hang up and let drain. When dripping has ceased the bag may be squeezed to remove remaining juice, but this may cause cloudy jelly." - Berolzheimer R(ed) et al (1959) [5]

    Examples:

    * Grape jelly (sweet fruit)
    * Mint jelly (savory)
    * Jalapeño pepper jelly


    Marmalade is a sweet preserve, traditionally with a bitter tang, made from citrus fruit rind (most popularly oranges), sugar, water, and (in some commercial brands) a gelling agent. The traditional British "marmalade" is most commonly from Seville oranges, which are less sweet than dessert oranges. American-style marmalade is sweet and not bitter.

    The term Preserves is usually interchangeable with Jam, however some cookbooks define Preserves as cooked and gelled whole fruit (or vegetable), which includes a significant portion of the fruit.[3]

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    i don't really have a problem with your nonsensical criticism as compared to drd and jarno's ignorance.

  14. #14

    Default Re: INTP ESFP Duality

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    I came across this article and while I as an ENFJ, don't relate to to that well it very much reminds me of the INTP ESFP couple I had for bosses:

    ...

    Heroism, of course, is a pretty high-risk strategy. But if you survive, you really have proved the quality of your genes. As the old saw has it, faint heart never won fair lady. On the other hand a soft heart, it appears, wins a gentleman.
    I don't get the point of this post. Was it to say that INTp's are chivalric, or that ESFp's are chivalric. Or that they are not. Or something else?
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Khamelion's Avatar
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    To Niffweed: why are you being so hostile?
    Not to mention the feeling of superiority he tries to achieve by calling everybody else stupid etc
    Niffweed has built a career out of being unnecessarily hostile, because apparently, that's the way the model INTp behaves

    for what it is worth, i'd like to say that i always see why he is being hostile and am pretty sure ive never thought that it was unnecessary.

    i think he honestly gets upset by stupidity, which nearly forces the reactions we see out of him. which i see nothing wrong with.
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    ... say all the Fe quadra types that are unwilling to look at lefty for what his/her arguments are and see how senseless this person truly is.
    OH NOES TEH FE SOMEONE SAVE NIFFWEED

    You're all being silly. And the description sucks.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion
    i think he honestly gets upset by stupidity, which nearly forces the reactions we see out of him. which i see nothing wrong with.
    Nice NiFe :wink:
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion

    for what it is worth, i'd like to say that i always see why he is being hostile and am pretty sure ive never thought that it was unnecessary.
    There are other ways to react then with arrogance, don't you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion
    i think he honestly gets upset by stupidity, which nearly forces the reactions we see out of him. which i see nothing wrong with.
    Nice NiFe :wink:

    nahhhhh



    i was merely pointing out that niffweed seems to have rubbed nearly everyone the wrong way at one point or another, but not i


    There are other ways to react then with arrogance, don't you think?
    Sure. part of the issue here is that i don't ever eh, feel this arrogance vibe much.
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion
    i was merely pointing out that niffweed seems to have rubbed nearly everyone the wrong way at one point or another, but not i
    i've never offended you? that is an intolerably stain on my credibility.


    all my life i have sought to be the one universal constant: one of evil and hatred in this chaotic world of madness and instability. all my life i believed i had succeeded, until this one, devastating, horrific moment.


    YOUR COMPLACENCY IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!! I DEMAND THAT YOU BE OFFENDED IN SOME WAY! IF YOU DO NOT COMPLY IMMEDIATELY, I WILL BE FORCED TO OFFEND YOU MORE BRUTALLY THAN YOU CAN EVER IMAGINE; LEWIS, BE DEAD.

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    I would suggest he change his attitude. Or at least find a more creative way of expressing it

    Looks like it only amused that ENFj. Heh.

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    bring in oooooon
    SEE Unknown Subtype
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameReborn
    I would suggest he change his attitude. Or at least find a more creative way of expressing it

    Looks like it only amused that ENFj. Heh.
    fuck you, too.

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    And while you're about it, change your language usage.

    You appear stiffer than the stereotypical LII, dude. All it takes is a poke, and BOOM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameReborn
    And while you're about it, change your language usage.

    You appear stiffer than the stereotypical LII, dude. All it takes is a poke, and BOOM.
    zzz

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    can i comment on how shitty this article makes me feel about charity? i used to have a prof who was really anti-charity and really vocal about this. i think i respect him more on many levels, especially after you read studies like this. i mean i would like to feel like coolguy or whatever is more of the majority but it seems like charity is the new (or the very, very old) gucci bag or something.
    6w5 sx
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    Default Re: INTP ESFP Duality

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    I came across this article and while I as an ENFJ, don't relate to to that well it very much reminds me of the INTP ESFP couple I had for bosses:

    ...

    Heroism, of course, is a pretty high-risk strategy. But if you survive, you really have proved the quality of your genes. As the old saw has it, faint heart never won fair lady. On the other hand a soft heart, it appears, wins a gentleman.
    I don't get the point of this post. Was it to say that INTp's are chivalric, or that ESFp's are chivalric. Or that they are not. Or something else?
    I guess the point is that INTP can be chivilrous (sp?) and ESFP can put their gregarious natures to work for a serious purpose.
    Lefty
    ENFJ

    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    can i comment on how shitty this article makes me feel about charity? i used to have a prof who was really anti-charity and really vocal about this. i think i respect him more on many levels, especially after you read studies like this. i mean i would like to feel like coolguy or whatever is more of the majority but it seems like charity is the new (or the very, very old) gucci bag or something.
    Why? I think there's a lot of bullshit charities, but when the charity goes and gives immunizations to some deadly disease in some part of the world that needs it. It is not a horrible thing no matter the motive.

    Are you devaluing here? :wink:

    You know I totally would give if some super hot girl was like asking me..
    i wrote this "in the heat of the moment" and i should re-explain myself. i actually do not have problems with charities themselves so much as people who give to charities for the sake of a "public face" or people who give to charities to look good or woo you or whatever. i mean, i've given to charities and such, and there are a pile of different charities that seem great to me (like the one you mentioned, for instance -- preventing otherwise easily preventable diseases via vaccination is great! who can really object to that?) it's more or less the sort of reality that "nothing is free" and it all boils down to sort of biological nuts and bolts. harsh realities of science! like there's an exchange going on even if not monetary. imviw (in my very ideal world) charity shouldn't operate on the same sort of basis as tit-for-tat as we should have evolved (on a societal level) a tiny bit more than that. maybe i'm really not Fe as i'm inclined to view this sort of thing as a crock. what i mean is that i think people should not use charities as way to bolster their own public face or make themselves look like good mates. i mean, if they really are awesome mates, then great. but i would hate to think it's sort of akin to getting a boob job. just get the boob job.

    um quoting on something from the bible here -- try not to feel like this is preaching because i really don't view it as me trying to convert people to christianity or whatever. i'm not christian, it's just more or less something that happens to be in the bible that i agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 6:5-6
    And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
    that makes a lot of sense to me? inasmuch as i think vainglorious acts that make people say "oh my goodness! what a good man he is!" should be subdued instead of plastered all over the place.

    and hey i've dated dudes who work with NGOs/charitable organizations! what an evolutionary crock of shit!!




    was it username Cone who posted something on thorstein veblen? i swear he did.


    i've probably taken lefty's original post out of context and created some huge Fe blast or something like dee. apologies! i'm tipsy!
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khamelion
    bring in oooooon
    You just have to say "you're not real INTp", before he says "you're not real ESFp". That's the trick
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Are you referring to me or Niff?

    If the latter, I don't care.

    If the former, well... that's kinda old. A guy once tried to convince me I was ILE, almost worked, but nope. And I'm not sure it would be wise for her to attack me... Not that I think she would, of course. She's too nice.

    But since I'm on now, and just in case... ::to Khamelion:: You're not real ESFp!

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    I think everyone realizes the article is stupid niffweed. The difference is you're a crazy asshole about it, and the rest of the INTps don't seem to care.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat
    I think everyone realizes the article is stupid niffweed. The difference is you're a crazy asshole about it, and the rest of the INTps don't seem to care.
    i would strongly suggest the procuration of several thousand chickens. chickens are good because they lay eggs. if you purchase several thousand chickens and sell the eggs you might turn a decent profit.

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    double


    you've got it all backwards, im the only real one here. all INTps are not real!


    pretty sick dilema for me
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    [21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
    [21:29] hitta: and not dying
    .

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