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Thread: ENFp organization skills and lack of follow through

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    Default ENFp organization skills and lack of follow through

    Are they all flaky? I thought they were supposed to have some sort of conscious? I'm getting the impression they're very bad at follow through, more so than I am..which is saying a lot.

    I'm sitting home on a saturday because of said flakiness. Whyyy do certain people do this?? Drives me absolutely insane.

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    Here's what happens. We think something sounds like fun, and we say we'd like to do it, but:

    1. We forgot we are supposed to do something else.
    2. We forget we're doing something with you and say we'll do something else.
    3. When we said "we'd like to do that" we meant "we'd like to do that" and not "we will do that". And maybe we really do WANT to do it but we can't.
    4. Something else came up and what we were going to do with you feels more flexible than this other thing so we figure we should do the other thing
    5. A mom or grandma or something like that is involved in the other thing that came up and we feel guilt and social obligation so we feel like we have to do that
    6. We just simply forgot because that happens too
    7. Some combination of the above
    8. Some other thing involving forgiveness, fear of angering or hurting someone else, perceived level of flexibility of various options, etc.
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    This might fall under #4. There are only so many football games each season for any given favorite team, and some games are more important than others, so there is a low potential for flexibility. If you like a sport, and it's an important game for given sport, then you have to watch it then or you can't watch it at all. Waiting to watch it later doesn't work well for sports. But if you were going to, say, see a movie, there is high level of flexibility as you can easily watch that another day.
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    I just don't understand it...I mean, how can you just completely forget your plans and not even care how the other person feels? I would never do that to someone. I'd at least tell them I couldn't make it and that I was sorry and that i'd make it up to them. Maybe the topic should really be switched to "Football has ruined many of my relationships".

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    oh and if he's anything like me and many other ENFps I know, guilt can be a strong motivator. If he feels guilty for skipping out on you, he will do whatever he can to make it up to you. And if he doesn't feel guilty for skipping out, then use that as an asshole-detection method and dump him. Someone who does that without feeling any guilt will never change, and it is disrespectful. If he isn't able to be respectful, he's not "the right one." *hug*
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I just don't understand it...I mean, how can you just completely forget your plans and not even care how the other person feels? I would never do that to someone. I'd at least tell them I couldn't make it and that I was sorry and that i'd make it up to them. Maybe the topic should really be switched to "Football has ruined many of my relationships".
    We've cross-posted. ISTps can be hard to read so he might not be aware that it's bothering you. You don't have to make a scene but indicate in some way that you are pissed off. Again, if he doesn't respond and try to make it up to you, he's a disrespectful ass.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    oh and if he's anything like me and many other ENFps I know, guilt can be a strong motivator. If he feels guilty for skipping out on you, he will do whatever he can to make it up to you. And if he doesn't feel guilty for skipping out, then use that as an asshole-detection method and dump him. Someone who does that without feeling any guilt will never change, and it is disrespectful. If he isn't able to be respectful, he's not "the right one." *hug*
    I'm sure he'll feel guilty tommorow morning, that's how it always is. We spent all last weekend together (because his team wasn't playing) and you know what he said afterwards? "So this means I can sit home and watch football all next week", wtf? I've never met anyone so obsessed with sports in my entire life. He'll make all these elaborate plans and then when the time comes, he's nowhere to be found. I do not get it.

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    This is actually interesting because it is actually basically the same thing as The Fight - the only fight my husband and I have ever had.

    I said I'd do something with him, but it felt flexible, and something else came up, and I didn't think he'd really care, so I took off and did the other thing.

    When I came home he was missing and didn't come home that night and it got to like after 1 and he was never out that late without me. I was FURIOUS. How dare he just take off and not come home. And I was JEALOUS because my initial thought was that he was with another woman. I steamed and stewed and freaked out and cried. Then I thought and I figured he probably went to this one bar we went to together sometimes. And then I thought that if he was there he'd need a ride home because if he was mad at me and at a bar, he was drunk. So I drove out there, and he was sure enough there, and I brought him home, and I apologized for not prioritizing him, and he apologized for taking off like that, and we've literally never had a fight since, in 10 years. I learned to make him my top priority as far as my time goes, and he learned not to just take off and not have me know where he is, and neither of us has repeated those mistakes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I just don't understand it...I mean, how can you just completely forget your plans and not even care how the other person feels? I would never do that to someone. I'd at least tell them I couldn't make it and that I was sorry and that i'd make it up to them. Maybe the topic should really be switched to "Football has ruined many of my relationships".
    We've cross-posted. ISTps can be hard to read so he might not be aware that it's bothering you. You don't have to make a scene but indicate in some way that you are pissed off. Again, if he doesn't respond and try to make it up to you, he's a disrespectful ass.
    Yeah, I don't think he has any idea how much it bothers me. But I really believe it's common sense that you should go out with your significant other on the weekends since you can't see them at all during the week, especially after plans have been made. He should know that it makes me upset to be dumped for football, it's just common knowledge and so that's why i don't say anything.

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    This:
    But I really believe it's common sense that you should go out with your significant other on the weekends since you can't see them at all during the week
    was PRECISELY what my husband said. Like literally word for word. But I was clueless and didn't see it as being common sense. He was angry because we'd both been working all week and I was working a job that had really long hours at that point so we hadn't seen each other that much all week, and then I went and took off without him all day Saturday. He was furious. And I didn't know it until I got home and he was missing and didn't come home. It was awful, and I was so terribly angry at him for taking off. I was like researching to see how easy it was to annul a marriage. Isn't that awful? I thought of a million things he could be off doing without answering his cell phone and none of them were good. It took a while before I figured out he was probably just not answering the phone because he was angry at me. And once that occurred to me I figured out where he probably was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    oh and if he's anything like me and many other ENFps I know, guilt can be a strong motivator. If he feels guilty for skipping out on you, he will do whatever he can to make it up to you. And if he doesn't feel guilty for skipping out, then use that as an asshole-detection method and dump him. Someone who does that without feeling any guilt will never change, and it is disrespectful. If he isn't able to be respectful, he's not "the right one." *hug*
    I've seen the guilt motivator in IEE, and it can be very mollifying to the easily wounded sensitivities of the IEI.

    Also, I've personally solved the "sports" problem. The answer is to be attracted to non-teamsports inclined men. (And no, they aren't all gay.) I think of this metrosexual subset as my niche, and have developed a finely tuned ability to hone in on them. :wink:
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    I've searched high and low for a man that doesn't like sports but I don't think they exist. Every single one I've dated has been completley obsessed to the point it's borderline insane. And god forbid his team loose, can't talk to him for the whole rest of the day.

    I really find it hard to believe that some don't think it's common sense that you should at least make an effort to be with your significant other on the weekends. It's just something you do. If I have to tell someone that, to hell with it, basically. I don't want someone talking to me out of obligation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I've searched high and low for a man that doesn't like sports but I don't think they exist. Every single one I've dated has been completley obsessed to the point it's borderline insane. And god forbid his team loose, can't talk to him for the whole rest of the day.

    I really find it hard to believe that some don't think it's common sense that you should at least make an effort to be with your significant other on the weekends. It's just something you do. If I have to tell someone that, to hell with it, basically. I don't want someone talking to me out of obligation.
    You've got the wrong attitude. You are one person and he is another person. You are motivated by some things and some things are important to you, and he is motivated by other things and other things are important to him. There might be things he wants from you that seem unimportant to you that you would be happy to change and the change would not be "out of obligation." This might be something like that for him. I was happy to change my priorities as far as how I spend my time to meet my husband's needs, and I'm glad we got that issue figured out because we've been really and truly happy for a long time. If he'd just decided that I should just know his priorities and that they should be "common sense", that would have been a huge loss for both of us.
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    I know these things but I have serious problems communicating what I want. It's easier to sit back and not say anything which usually ends up ruining everything, heh.

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    gay

    I think of this metrosexual subset as my niche, and have developed a finely tuned ability to hone in on them.
    sorry but i don't feel any less of a men if i prefer to go out with a girl rather than watching a bunch of other men playing sports. i like to play them and talk rough in the meanwhile, but watching?

    I really find it hard to believe that some don't think it's common sense that you should at least make an effort to be with your significant other on the weekends
    yea i agree. and if I have to ask somebody else this basic stuff, i kind of put myself in a bad place, honestly. begging for attention? probably she (in my case) would be better off with somebody with the same priorities
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    The day I meet a man that isn't completely obsessed with sports, we're tying the knot. I have many interests myself but do i cancel dates with him to go shopping? No. You make that person a priority. It goes beyond this football thing. He's flaked out so many times I can't even count. He supposedly enjoys spending time with me but actions speak louder than words. Dunno, when i'm in a relationship with someone, i actually like to SEE them. I'm horrible at being assertive, i think that's the main issue here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    i actually like to SEE them
    suggestion: don't capitalize the word see. it's confusing. embolden it or italicize it or something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I've searched high and low for a man that doesn't like sports but I don't think they exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    The day I meet a man that isn't completely obsessed with sports, we're tying the knot.
    I'm a man who's been completely uninterested in sports since childhood. And I'm cool with you typing SEE.

    Where do you live?

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95

    okay so maybe he isn't a great guy otherwise. but i think you'd better try to learn a little assertiveness. in case you meet a guy who is great other than being a little football-obsessed.
    Being assertive is one of my biggest fears. Not sure why. It's a shame because I look at the other relationships i've had and i basically become everything I hate--someone who agrees with everything and never speaks up. Who wants to be in a relationship with someone like that? Unfortunatly when i'm mad, I kinda just disappear for awhile and expect the other person to know why i'm upset and that's obviously not the right approach. It's either that or i explode and you can guess what happens after that. I dont know why i have such a problem with being assertive, always have. The thing is, he really is an excellent guy but he always seems so scattered and always has a million and one things going on at one time and i never seem to be made a priority. Don't really know why i'm sharing this with you fine people, but oh well..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    Quote Originally Posted by fdg
    sorry but i don't feel any less of a men if i prefer to go out with a girl rather than watching a bunch of other men playing sports.
    whoa i never meant to say that. i just thought it was really harsh to rule someone out over it.
    my comment was directed to aka kitsuen not you


    i dunno, variety's the spice of life. i see some benefit when a guy and girl draw each other out of their usual routines somewhat.
    dunno, have you ever asked for a date somebody you're already with? i kind of feel like shit when i have to do it, i tend to expect the other party to be interested too.

    jessica: the matter with being assertive is pride. if you assert that you want to go out with him, in your head (i know i do it) you may be thinking "im forcing him to do something that he feels to be an hassle".
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    "solved the sports problem?" jesus christ i think my monitor needs a defrosting unit now. (any help with that, ISTp's?)

    so anyway, did you solve the toilet seat problem too by only dating guys who piss sitting down?
    None too surprisingly, that perk usually comes as a package deal with the "anti-sports" mentality. Along with car-door opening, sharing food, and extra thoughtfulness.
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    jessica129 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ifmd95 wrote:

    okay so maybe he isn't a great guy otherwise. but i think you'd better try to learn a little assertiveness. in case you meet a guy who is great other than being a little football-obsessed.
    Being assertive is one of my biggest fears. Not sure why. It's a shame because I look at the other relationships i've had and i basically become everything I hate--someone who agrees with everything and never speaks up. Who wants to be in a relationship with someone like that? Unfortunatly when i'm mad, I kinda just disappear for awhile and expect the other person to know why i'm upset and that's obviously not the right approach. It's either that or i explode and you can guess what happens after that. I dont know why i have such a problem with being assertive, always have. The thing is, he really is an excellent guy but he always seems so scattered and always has a million and one things going on at one time and i never seem to be made a priority. Don't really know why i'm sharing this with you fine people, but oh well..
    I've noticed what you mention about assertiveness with the ISTps I've met. I think it's the going from what you "want" to do and actually "doing" it that is hard, at least, that's what I've noticed. When I hang out with ISTps I'm actually the one who initiates and plans the activities, which is something that I actually like doing. Whenever I take the initiative in wanting to do something with someone else and they either reject it, not respond, or stand me up, it makes me feel foolish, which I know is dumb but I can't help it, so I withdraw and not make contact again. However, I don't feel that way with some ISTps, since what we find as fun tends to be very similar, and there is an understood sort of connection. However, this only applies with fellow guy ISTps. I have felt attraction to the ISTp girls I've met, but there's always something that gets in the way for me to date them, either they have a boyfriend or are not compatible with me in the general level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    Quote Originally Posted by fdg
    sorry but i don't feel any less of a men if i prefer to go out with a girl rather than watching a bunch of other men playing sports.
    whoa i never meant to say that. i just thought it was really harsh to rule someone out over it.
    my comment was directed to aka kitsuen not you
    Of course I agree. NO man is less so because he doesn't want to play armchair quarterback/batter/point guard every week. And I don't really "rule out". Just find it's much more of a turn on when I find out a guy isn't really a big sports fan. More compatibility, and less source of conflict, IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95
    which perk? the sitting down part? well okay whatever floats your boat but you had better hope he doesn't do that at the gym or the drawback is you're going to be getting all kinds of weird looks at dinner parties and barbeques.
    LOL!

    I meant to add the perk of "learning to put the seat down"... guess I totally anticipated my own response and forgot to type it in my enthusiasm! Some men, I find, are actually well trained in toilet etiquette.
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    Wow, you are exactly like my ex. Well, take it from me. He has absolutely no clue that you're pissed. This was my contribution to the demise of my relationship.. I got tired of trying to guess what was going on in his head every minute of every day, and since he never uttered any sort of affirmation that he liked spending time with me, I quit spending weekend time around him and stopped putting forth my normal level of effort in general. I also started showing my irritation at his lack of reciprocation, which accelerated things even further. It is exhausting showing someone that you care about them when you can't tell whether they really want you around or whether you just invited yourself over *again.* I'm pretty sure that the list of things that irritated my ex was endless, but God only knows what they were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny_dancer
    Wow, you are exactly like my ex. Well, take it from me. He has absolutely no clue that you're pissed. This was my contribution to the demise of my relationship.. I got tired of trying to guess what was going on in his head every minute of every day, and since he never uttered any sort of affirmation that he liked spending time with me, I quit spending weekend time around him and stopped putting forth my normal level of effort in general. I also started showing my irritation at his lack of reciprocation, which accelerated things even further. It is exhausting showing someone that you care about them when you can't tell whether they really want you around or whether you just invited yourself over *again.* I'm pretty sure that the list of things that irritated my ex was endless, but God only knows what they were.
    ahh, this has ended nearly all of my relationships. I always get told I never show I'm interested enough and that I never "reach out" enough. I've honestly been trying to work on it but it's so unnatural and I hate it more than anything. Just that fact that i'm spending time with you and answering your phone calls, means I want to spend time with you and that I am interested. I realize that comes off very cold to others but i don't know how to change it. I try to be more involved but it doesn't seem like it's enough. I can't be that girl that attaches herself to her boyfriends hip 24/7 and I never will be. I really don't want this one to get the wrong impression because i really like him, i just don't know how to show it. How do you show it?

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    I love sports, but i'm not obsessed.

    And all this makes the guy seem assholish, but it's hard to know when it's only coming from one side.

    Sides, football rocks.

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    It does make him seem semi-assholish, which is wrong as he's a great guy aside from the football thing. I guess you can't complain about someone if you aren't willing to speak up and say what's wrong. Ah well.

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    I don't think he expects you to be attached to his hip. ENFps don't want to be that person either. I think ISTps express themselves just fine, by and large. My ex spontaneously helped me fix things that needed fixing. God, I loved that. And he was great to talk to because he's such a clear thinker and so grounded. He always made me breakfast on the weekends... I just wished he dished out some spontaneous affection once in a while. He rarely hugged me, and he'd only give me a peck on the lips, unless he wanted something else too. That, and he quit planning dates, probably b/c he expected me to already have something in mind. Beat him to the punch and do something out of the ordinary once in a while. All you have to do is drop him a line and say, "Hey, there's X going on this weekend, wanna go?" Job done. It's not like you have to do something crazy. It's hard to plan things for someone and wonder if they're just following you around 'cause they have to. All you have to do is fill in with something once in a while so he knows you're still awake You can have my ex's b-day idea: I was going to tell him to take a few days off of work, get plane tix someplace we'd never been and not tell him where we're going til we have to check the bags. If you guys last a good while, keep that one in your pocket. I'm bummed I didn't get to do that. He'd have so loved that.

    Yeah, in the end it was just the mental pressure of knowing that he wasn't going to say anything if he was unhappy, but hold a grudge, that got me. You just can't sit around going, "Are you happy now? ... Are you happy now?" Cause that would drive YOU nuts! haha

    We needed to set better boundaries too. For instance, I'd come over to his place and make dinner once during the week. It was obvious he wanted to just veg in front of the TV, and I'd get irritated that he didn't want to either help or talk. I think he was just trying to make me happy by letting me come over, but it backfired on both of us. He needed alone time, and I wanted to talk. I wish he'd have just been up front with me and said "I've had a long day at work; I just need to decompress by myself." Quality over quantity... Our family situations were different - I grew up in a large, boisterous family, and he grew up an only child with 2 introvert parents. BIG people tolerance difference... I didn't quite realize how much so. He actually hated having a roommate because he was 'always there.' Even if he was in his room with the door closed, it drove him nuts that he was in the house. So whoever he ends up with has to have a mad social schedule b/c otherwise he'll think that they have no friends and are too dependent on him... crazy.

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    jessica129's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if it's so much a personality thing as it is a male-female issue. I'm used to the guy initiating...call me old-fashioned, but I don't feel comfortable being the initiator. I do ask him on the occasional date just to show i'm making an effort, but other than that, I really believe it's the guys responsibilty. Maybe that's the wrong way to think of things, but that's how i feel. It doesn't feel natural to me to be the aggressive one but i also realize I have to bring something to relationships, I can't just sit back and expect he do all the work. Frankly, i'm just too lazy. Ugh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129
    I'm not sure if it's so much a personality thing as it is a male-female issue. I'm used to the guy initiating...call me old-fashioned, but I don't feel comfortable being the initiator. I do ask him on the occasional date just to show i'm making an effort, but other than that, I really believe it's the guys responsibilty. Maybe that's the wrong way to think of things, but that's how i feel. It doesn't feel natural to me to be the aggressive one but i also realize I have to bring something to relationships, I can't just sit back and expect he do all the work. Frankly, i'm just too lazy. Ugh.
    yeah, i just feel weird about this in most circumstances. i just think i need someone really persistent who is sort of okay with that kind of conservativeness. i agree that i don't expect the guy to do all the work, but god is it ever uncomfortable for me otherwise. i mean, it's barely a guys should do x and girls should do y thing as much as it is even straight up shyness/discomfort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Maybe try to move in with the guy, see if it works out.

    Kinda of a radical solution, but I kinda of can't keep anything going myself... and I sort of lose my focus after a while in relationships.

    Sometimes proximity is what keeps things going.

    It's a kind of guys ask girls out, girls ask guys to move in or something like that..
    It would force the issue. When my husband and I had this fight, he couldn't just back off and not contact me because we LIVED TOGETHER, so he ran off and I couldn't find him, and I freaked out, and we had to solve it. Maybe if we weren't living together he would have backed off, and I would have thought he just wasn't interested, and we would have quietly broken up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Maybe try to move in with the guy, see if it works out.

    Kinda of a radical solution, but I kinda of can't keep anything going myself... and I sort of lose my focus after a while in relationships.

    Sometimes proximity is what keeps things going.

    It's a kind of guys ask girls out, girls ask guys to move in or something like that..
    I've been thinking about this, we live quite a bit from each other but I'm thinking it's a little too early for that even though the distance is really making things grow cold quite fast. He drives an hour to get home from work, i drive an hour to get home from work, he lives an hour from me, we're both exhausted at the end of the day...it's hard. But seeing him only one the weekends (if i'm lucky) is really making it hard to progress things. Dunno, if we're still dating by the end of this year, I would like to take it to that next level.

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    From a guy's perspective, generally guys don't have a problem being exclusive initiators for the first months of the relationship, mostly because we too feel it's up to us. After some time, though, we wake up one day and think "Hey, am I so desperate that I must always contact her and she is the one that is up to decide whether to come or not?". We then hope that the girl figures out by herself that we would like too, sometimes, to feel like it's her wanting to date us, rather than exclusively the opposite.
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    He has no problems being the initiator, he asks me out all the time. Problem is, he cancels 99% of the time. HE JUST CANCELED ANOTHER DATE/MINI-VACATION we had planned for a month . Needless to say, I freaked out and went off and he seemed completely oblivious and shocked and won't stop apologizing. Wtf?? I will never understand the majority of men.

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    Well good that you freaked out. First because he deserved it. Second because hopefully he'll learn this time. But don't give in. Make sure he understands fully that you don't cancel like that, and particularly not something people look forward to as much as a mini vacation!

    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Yeah, it's good that I told him what I really thought but I hate when I get pushed to the breaking point and can't control what comes out of my mouth. I'm not very good at talking about problems before they turn into something huge. I feel bad about it but I guess he deserved it..errr

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    I'm not like that in any shape or form.

    First, I don't like sports, or better put, I don't like watching at them. And I don't have many (if any) interests that withdraw me from my people to that level. I often plan my time according to how much time I'm going to spend with my family and the few (true) friends I have.

    For example, I've been spending a lot of time with my ISFp friend lately and sometimes I must tell her that I don't spend enough time with my family and that I will be out of reach for a while. That's maybe the only valuable thing I've learned with socionics: to stop wasting time with people that couldn't care less about it and spend my time with the people who really loves me. And you couldn't believe how that simple concept has improved my life so much.

    In any case, you're putting too much weight into the type. I'm ENFp and by no means irresponsible. I sincerely forget many things because my attention span is rather short, but somehow I manage to keep in mind the important things. I try to follow trough my promises and to keep my word.
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    He's probobly not even enfp, who knows. I assumed that was his closest match so hence this thread, although i do realize it really is just a personal thing and probobly has nothing to do with 'type'. Oh well.

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    Default Hm...

    Perhaps General Discussion would be a better place for this. Still...I'm asking as an IEE.

    I'm not horrible at organization on a small scale, when I want to do it (as I "speak", I'm making a rather involved character chart in Excel, putting in my charas' features and the like, and grouping them into families). I organize certain things because it's efficient to do so, though I've organized others due to sheer compulsion (though those may be abandoned); I just don't care about my physical surroundings. Is this Si, Se, Ti?
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