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Thread: Subtypes and Hidden Agenda

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    Default Subtypes and Hidden Agenda

    I have noticed that types that aren't that influenced by their second function (accepting subtypes) tend to focus more on their hidden agenda. It also seems like producing subtypes will focus more on their 5th function. I would like to know if anyone else has observed this trend or if it is just my imagination.

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    Assuming subtypes exist, I'm a split subtype, and I focus a lot on my 5th function. Interesting observations.
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    Default Re: observation related to the hidden agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    I have noticed that types that aren't that influenced by their second function (accepting subtypes) tend to focus more on their hidden agenda. It also seems like producing subtypes will focus more on their 5th function. I would like to know if anyone else has observed this trend or if it is just my imagination.
    I remember discussing this awhile ago with Koneko.... I think it's the other way around. This is assuming that there are two subtypes, and only two clearly defined subtypes. IMO, Herzblut is more of the logical-SLE, and I am the logical-SLI. She already said that she focuses on her 5th function more, and I'd agree. That's because if your creative function is stronger, your PoLR would, theorectically be stronger, and if your base was stronger, then your Role would be the stronger one. And people try and balance out the "weaker" one more heavily than they do the stronger one. Think of the creative subtype closer to it's mirror.
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    Default Re: observation related to the hidden agenda

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    I have noticed that types that aren't that influenced by their second function (accepting subtypes) tend to focus more on their hidden agenda. It also seems like producing subtypes will focus more on their 5th function. I would like to know if anyone else has observed this trend or if it is just my imagination.
    If i am INTj intuitive subtype it would match with me focusing on my hidden agenda.

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    Rocky: What? I'm confused. I think you said that you disagree with me, but this sentence makes it sound like you do agree with me: "IMO, Herzblut is more of the logical-SLE, and I am the logical-SLI. She already said that she focuses on her 5th function more, and I'd agree." That sentence kind of supports my assertion that a producing subtype focuses more on the fifth function. Maybe I am just misunderstanding you?

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    Oh I almost forgot, this is interesting also: "That's because if your creative function is stronger, your PoLR would, theorectically be stronger, and if your base was stronger, then your Role would be the stronger one." So does that mean we can draw some connections between the 3rd and 4th functions and the 7th and 8th functions? Hmm...such as...the more emphasis on the 3rd function, the more emphasis on the 7th. Or did you say I was getting this backwards?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Rocky: What? I'm confused. I think you said that you disagree with me, but this sentence makes it sound like you do agree with me: "IMO, Herzblut is more of the logical-SLE, and I am the logical-SLI. She already said that she focuses on her 5th function more, and I'd agree." That sentence kind of supports my assertion that a producing subtype focuses more on the fifth function. Maybe I am just misunderstanding you?
    oops, sorry, I thought you said the opposite. In that case, I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Oh I almost forgot, this is interesting also: "That's because if your creative function is stronger, your PoLR would, theorectically be stronger, and if your base was stronger, then your Role would be the stronger one." So does that mean we can draw some connections between the 3rd and 4th functions and the 7th and 8th functions? Hmm...such as...the more emphasis on the 3rd function, the more emphasis on the 7th. Or did you say I was getting this backwards?
    ... possible. I meant it more like, if your creative function was stronger, AND that meant that you PoLR was stronger, then you would have to worry about your hidden-agenda funciton less and your dual-seeking function more. If someone (say an irrational type) puts more emphasis on their 3rd function, then we would be assuming that their perceiving functions are "superior" to their judging ones, which would make me wonder if they would emphasis more the 7th or 8th funciton (7th being "stronger" and 8th being "weaker").
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    Well I'm glad to know we're thinking along the same lines. I wonder why this would be though? I have an vague idea, but I don't know how to put it into words. I guess it's some sort of compensatory activity.

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    Oh I didn't see the second part of your post. I have a question about something: does putting more emphasis on the 1st function mean that you put more emphasis on the 3rd function (as compared to the forth function)? This is what I thought you getting at in your first post.

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    Oh I didn't see the second part of your post. I have a question about something: does putting more emphasis on the 1st function mean that you put more emphasis on the 3rd function (as compared to the forth function)? This is what I thought you getting at in your first post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Oh I didn't see the second part of your post. I have a question about something: does putting more emphasis on the 1st function mean that you put more emphasis on the 3rd function (as compared to the forth function)? This is what I thought you getting at in your first post.
    Pretty much, if your perceiving function is stronger than your judging one, then all of your perceiving function would be raltively stronger than the judging one (so, 1st over 2nd, 3rd over 4th, etc..).
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Pretty much, if your perceiving function is stronger than your judging one, then all of your perceiving function would be raltively stronger than the judging one (so, 1st over 2nd, 3rd over 4th, etc..).
    What is the function order of a SLI? And how does having a stronger Si over Te influence the hidden agenda and the other functions of a SLI?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Pretty much, if your perceiving function is stronger than your judging one, then all of your perceiving function would be raltively stronger than the judging one (so, 1st over 2nd, 3rd over 4th, etc..).
    What is the function order of a SLI? And how does having a stronger Si over Te influence the hidden agenda and the other functions of a SLI?
    Si- Base
    Te- Creative
    Ni- Role
    Fe- PoLR

    Ne- Suggestive (Dual-seeking)
    Fi- Estimative (Hidden Agenda)
    Se- Personal Knowledge
    Ti- Concrete Art



    ... as for you second question, it's only speculation/observation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Thanks.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    So this means that producing subtypes have more control over their hidden agenda, as in they can take care of that aspect more effectively compared to their accepting counterparts?
    Yes, which may be why I have seen them focus more on the dual-seeking. I know a sensory-SEI who you can tell focuses a lot on her understanding of things; she is actually thought of to be really bright and takes her time concentrating on things in school. The other SEI I know is an ethical-SEI; you can tell because she projects out that Fe more, and she definatly concentrates on the Ne more than the first example. Of course, I could always be wrong and it might just have to do with extraversion/introversion...

    What I mean by that is, the sensory subtype would be more heavily "Introverted", so she could focus on the introverted need. The ethical subtype would be more "Extraverted", so she could focus more on her extraverted need... all I know is that it seems to be a pattern.

    Is it also possible that they are more likely to confuse themselves as their beneficiary?
    You think that you're an ESFJ.

    Actually, yeah, I think so... I did it, I Koneko said that he did it...

    EDIT: Nevermind, I thought he said benefactor. That's the way I see it, anyways. I think it's the other way around.

    SLI> LII
    EII> ILI
    IEE> ESE
    etc...

    For the creative (producing) subtypes. It's probably the other way around for the accepting subtypes...
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    It would be nice if you would not just say "to put emphasis on the .. function" but whould actually explain what you mean with example or elaborate a bit so that the others could understand better what you mean or talk about.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    OK, what I mean by that.

    The sensory subtype you tell tell is more concentrated in school. She asks lots of questions when she doesn't understand things, gets good grades, does all of her homework, etc.. The ethical subtype is more known to be out and trying new things. She does OK in school, but isn't as good with doing work. She's not really as concentrated either... but a little more fun to be around. The ethical subtype is more into discovering new types of music and things along those lines. I hope you can get a general picture of where these two girls interests are focused. I think subtype is one thing that MAY be influenced by your enviorment, BTW.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Default Hidden Agenda and Subtypes

    This might be common sense observation, but I was wondering today about the possibility of the subtypes influencing one's hidden agenda in slightly different ways (and therefore, the HA would manifest outwardly in different ways).

    For instance, how might an Fe-IEI's HA manifest in its needs differently than that of an Ni-IEI's HA, if at all?

    In hanging out with my Ni-IEI friend, I have experienced plenty of moments where I needed some help and had trouble understanding basic instructions (ie. for a game), needing them to patiently talk me through it. Here they were supporting my HA. It makes me wonder how an Ni-IEI type would experience their HA because they seem so much more logical in comparison.

    Maybe one's HA needs are demonstrated in a way that would more conclusively indicate one's subtype (assuming someone believes in subtype theory at all)? So that all of the HA's would be split into different focuses perhaps (ie. SEI- Fe vs SEI- Si, ILE-Ti vs ILE- Ne, IEE-Fi vs. IEE-Ne and so on). Or maybe not.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Clumsy; 02-11-2012 at 09:05 PM.

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    This is why I don't believe in subtype, because HA in a "subtype" doesn't manifest in a different way.

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    The introverted functions are all more conscious for an INFp-Ni
    INFp-Ni will note a variety advantages to be gleaned in a social situations. THey'll arrange the situation to uncover hidden information or bluffs. INFp-Fes take some private knowledge or intention to effect things in a particular way, then they look for the best way to express themselves. It's actually a big difference in mentality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    This is why I don't believe in subtype, because HA in a "subtype" doesn't manifest in a different way.
    you're a dumbass.
    Last edited by rat1; 07-11-2011 at 05:51 AM.

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    Whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    From my observations, being a Px-subtype seems to accentuate the Agenda function more (while for Jx-subtypes, the DS function). So what you say about your Ni-IEI friend makes sense.
    That's interesting to hear. Thanks for your input. I guess this is sort of common sense, right? lol

    So an Ni-IEI might exhibit their HA (or rather DS) in a more... inertia-y kind of way? Needing someone to give them Se and get out of their head a bit more?

    How have you seen this play out with other types/hidden agendas? Sorry to ask for details... I love hearing about things like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow
    The introverted functions are all more conscious for an INFp-Ni
    Did not know that, but that also makes sense. Thank you as well for the reply.

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    Creative Function subtypes have more pronounced HA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HunterX View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    The introverted functions are all more conscious for an INFp-Ni
    INFp-Ni will note a variety advantages to be gleaned in a social situations. THey'll arrange the situation to uncover hidden information or bluffs. INFp-Fes take some private knowledge or intention to effect things in a particular way, then they look for the best way to express themselves. It's actually a big difference in mentality.
    I find this interesting. Would you care to expand on this, crazedrat? Any examples, perhaps?
    Seconded. Can you talk more about this?

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    It's just a reversal of the information flow. Fe>Ni>Ti for INFp-Ni and Ti>Ni>Fe for INFp-Fe. Also because of that the functions have different qualities. The Ni subtypes Fe is observational and the Fe subtypes Fe is expressive, whereas Ni subtype communicates with Ti & sees hidden agendas in others but for INFp-Fe it is their own hidden agenda which is motivating them. The INFp-Ni in whole is characterized by an observational orientation while the INFp-Fe is focused on themselves primarily.
    Examples of INFp-Nis are me and strrrng.. we communicate with Ti about the motives of others / the flaws in their reasoning, which stem back to their personal flaws. There are alot of INFp-Fes here.. they're alot more polite and have a way of getting what they want ^like in both your posts here.
    There is also a reversal of the id and superego functions. INFp-Ni has Ne more like the role function and Si the ignoring function. You can see this in arguments where INFp-Nis will go on and on responding to contingencies, and INFp-Fes will come in and say 'just ignore eachother'.
    The INFp-Fe has more certainty in themselves and what they believe is right where the INFp-Ni disregards this certainty as exclusivist.
    Last edited by rat1; 07-24-2011 at 01:43 AM.

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    Yeah
    As far as taking action is concerned, the INFp-Ni criticizes peoples actions and INFp-Fe regulates their own actions.

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    Well, from my observations, on the other hand, the hidden agenda doesnt seem to manifest itself differently in different subtypes.

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    Your observations mean jack shit to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    Your observations mean jack shit to me.
    Well thats just as good because your opinions/posts mean jack shit to me, shithead.

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    Hidden Agenda is a overrated concept, mostly derived from resolute / reasonable for J types, merry / serious for P types.
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    And misleading too, at least the term "hidden agenda" is, considering socionics is not a theory on motivations.

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    Thoughts motivate behavior... socionics describes behavior in detail using the functions
    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    Your observations mean jack shit to me.
    Well thats just as good because your opinions/posts mean jack shit to me, shithead.
    At least I back up what I say

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    Crazedrat did you read all this somewhere about subtypes, or have you observed/discovered it yourself?

    It sounds interesting and correct.

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    I took the system and extended it one step further using the principles of model A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    It's just a reversal of the information flow. Fe>Ni>Ti for INFp-Ni and Ti>Ni>Fe for INFp-Fe. Also because of that the functions have different qualities. The Ni subtypes Fe is observational and the Fe subtypes Fe is expressive, whereas Ni subtype communicates with Ti & sees hidden agendas in others but for INFp-Fe it is their own hidden agenda which is motivating them. The INFp-Ni in whole is characterized by an observational orientation while the INFp-Fe is focused on themselves primarily.
    Technically if we admit the validity of model A, focusing, strengthening or whatever similar the leading [creative] function does not change the flow of information. For Ni-IEI and Fe-IEI it will still be Ni->Fe. Changing it would imply being the mirror, not a different subtype. I think this is correct because the change between subtypes is more likely quantitative, whereas between mirrors it would be qualitative (or quantitative in a much higher degree).

    If you describe Fe in Ni-IEIs as observational you're more or less implying accepting (~passive) instead producing (~active). This is Fe in EIEs.

    Accepting subtypes are less focused in the creative function, which will seem then more passive. But it still has the same nature, only "weakened" if you want.

    But I agree this would have interesing effects in HA. You always need an irrational+rational pair of functions working together for producing coherent behavior. An accepting subtype lacks the strength in creative that a non-polarized type will have. The obvious way of compensating this is accessing to a "similar" and valued function, which is HA. Both of them, creative and mobilizing, share rationality, and both of them are producing. This compensation is not completely efficient (they're both introverted or extroverted) but it is still a valid solution.

    Examples of INFp-Nis are me and strrrng.. we communicate with Ti about the motives of others / the flaws in their reasoning, which stem back to their personal flaws. There are alot of INFp-Fes here.. they're alot more polite and have a way of getting what they want ^like in both your posts here.
    There is also a reversal of the id and superego functions. INFp-Ni has Ne more like the role function and Si the ignoring function. You can see this in arguments where INFp-Nis will go on and on responding to contingencies, and INFp-Fes will come in and say 'just ignore eachother'.
    The INFp-Fe has more certainty in themselves and what they believe is right where the INFp-Ni disregards this certainty as exclusivist.
    Ne as role does not make sense. The role function is not valued but still used sometimes with not excessive difficulty. The more you're focused in a leading Ni the less you will be able to manage its opposite, which is Ne. In accepting subtypes, the ignoring function should be more ignored.

    That change in behavior could be explained simply as a direct result of weaker Fe (and stronger Ti) in accepting subtypes without the need of changing superego and id.

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    "Technically if we admit the validity of model A, focusing, strengthening or whatever similar the leading [creative] function does not change the flow of information. For Ni-IEI and Fe-IEI it will still be Ni->Fe. Changing it would imply being the mirror, not a different subtype."

    This seems more correct...If my understanding is right (and it could, you know, not be) I think that a Ni-IEI and an Fe-IEI still have the exact same function order. Basically, their Ni is greater than their Fe, no matter what. If it was the opposite, they would be an ENFj . The only thing that changes is not necessarily the strength of functions, but rather a preference in using a certain function over another. It's like having two incredible bodybuilders that are equally as strong as each other. It's just that one likes bench presses more and the other likes pullups more. But that's just my take on it...

    Or rather, it's like having two kids who were given the exact same set of lego pieces. One decided to make a spaceship, and the other decided to make a new planet.
    Last edited by sar; 08-16-2011 at 10:57 PM. Reason: I like this example more...

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    I'm talking about the way the blocks are arranged relative to one another. Distinguishing that relationship modifies the flow of information, just as the function blocks in model A modify the flow of information. What I'm saying is an extension of model A. It's a higher dimensional ring of circulation. You regurgitating model A is pretty irrelevant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    I'm talking about the way the blocks are arranged relative to one another. Distinguishing that relationship modifies the flow of information, just as the function blocks in model A modify the flow of information. What I'm saying is an extension of model A. It's a higher dimensional ring of circulation. You regurgitating model A is pretty irrelevant.
    A higher dimensional ring of circulation. What's that, like the 5th dimension?

    What it's irrelevant is that you believe you've discovered something relevant. The subtype behavior could be explained perfectly whithout the need of your additions, a set of additions which doesn't make any sense.

    Create a consistent hypothesis and prove that reality fits in your ideas. Not made, so it's only BULLSHIT.
    Last edited by ssss; 08-22-2011 at 09:32 PM.

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