Socionics and psychology

[drd252]

If someone is diagnosed as bipolar, borderline, or psychotic, wouldn't that totally invalidate any possible socionics typing of them? How could socionics account for said psychological disorders? I mean, socionics is based upon how one receives and processes information about the world, and said disorders totally alter how one receives and processes information, so much so, that socionics would no longer be applicable to such individuals.

discuss...

*EDIT*

And if the presence of a psychological disorder does not invalidate socionics typing, then wouldn't there actually be: P+1 (number of recognized psychological disorders + "normal" psychological type) x 16 (socionics types) = 16P types? For example if P=3, then there would be 64 socionics types, like INFj and INFj BPD.

[Jarno]

This is a bit too broad of a generalization of disorders.

Indeed psychotic people are probably very hard to type, because they perceive a totally different / new world of which we ourselves have no knowledge about.

The other disorders, like personality disorders don't mess up the type a person is. There are just some extremes in that person's personality but he still focusses on the distinctive parts of reality.

I happen to know some people with personality disorders (as 1 in 7 people have a disorder), and their type is as easy to spot as in "normal" persons.

Maybe even easyer, because they tend to have a more stereotypical type related behaviour.

[Rick]

If someone is diagnosed as bipolar, borderline, or psychotic, wouldn't that totally invalidate any possible socionics typing of them? How could socionics account for said psychological disorders? I mean, socionics is based upon how one receives and processes information about the world, and said disorders totally alter how one receives and processes information, so much so, that socionics would no longer be applicable to such individuals.

discuss...

*EDIT*

And if the presence of a psychological disorder does not invalidate socionics typing, then wouldn't there actually be: P+1 (number of recognized psychological disorders + "normal" psychological type) x 16 (socionics types) = 16P types? For example if P=3, then there would be 64 socionics types, like INFj and INFj BPD.

From an IEE standpoint at least, all people are essentially healthy at the core, and their personality and character is an integrated whole. The only people I've ever met who I felt were truly unlike normal people were some recovering schizophrenic drug users at a mental hospital I volunteered at. They were so much like vegetables that I could not see their personality and motivational structure.

Most socionists would agree that many personality disorders are type accentuations, which would almost make people easier to type. Even bipolar people really are pretty much normal and easily typeable.

[Phaedrus]

Most socionists would agree that many personality disorders are type accentuations, which would almost make people easier to type.

Can you give a few examples? What types are seen as accentuations of what disorders then, according to the majority of socionists -- or according to your personal opinion?

[Rick]

Most socionists would agree that many personality disorders are type accentuations, which would almost make people easier to type.

Can you give a few examples? What types are seen as accentuations of what disorders then, according to the majority of socionists -- or according to your personal opinion?

(From http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...dern_Socionist): Most socionists disagree that "Mentally ill people don't have types, but only "shards" of types," and about half agree that "Type determines a propensity towards certain mental illnesses".

I have seen a few socionic studies correlating various accentuations with types, but I was not too interested in the topic to pay close attention. I think that type is not too related to degenerative disorders (sorry, I don't know the terminology perfectly) such as schizophrenia. It is possible that the personality accentuations socionists have written about are not really psychological disorders according to modern psychiatry. I don't think "hysteria," for example, is in any modern books on psychopathology. Basically, medical psychiatry and socionics take completely different approaches to abnormal behavior -- one looking at physiological causes in the brain, the other -- disruptions in the functioning of different psychic functions.

[anndelise]

Most socionists would agree that many personality disorders are type accentuations, which would almost make people easier to type. Even bipolar people really are pretty much normal and easily typeable.

I've been given the labels bipolr and borderline.
I strongly believe that "bipolar" was given due to a combination of heavy Fp, Ti polr, and ptsd.
and "borderline" was given due to a combination of being ExFp, ptsd, and high reactivity to particular triggers that developed along with the ptsd.

Note: I'm not saying that bipolar/borderline people are ExFp...I'm saying that the criteria of bipolar/borderline that gave me the labels matched these aspects of myself. Also, most of the psychiatrists who've played a part in the diagnosis aspect have each been, I believe, INTj.

[Rick]

Most socionists would agree that many personality disorders are type accentuations, which would almost make people easier to type. Even bipolar people really are pretty much normal and easily typeable.

I've been given the labels bipolr and borderline.
I strongly believe that "bipolar" was given due to a combination of heavy Fp, Ti polr, and ptsd.
and "borderline" was given due to a combination of being ExFp, ptsd, and high reactivity to particular triggers that developed along with the ptsd.

Note: I'm not saying that bipolar/borderline people are ExFp...I'm saying that the criteria of bipolar/borderline that gave me the labels matched these aspects of myself. Also, most of the psychiatrists who've played a part in the diagnosis aspect have each been, I believe, INTj.

Out of curiosity, do you think your bipolarity and borderlineness (if you agree at all with these diagnoses) were "triggered" by something in your past experience, or they developed organically on their own like a congenital condition?

There have been times in the past when I didn't have much support in life and kind of felt on the edge of sanity, and I wondered if my chaotic emotional state would trigger some sort of long-term disorder or something. I think that living with certain people (and their types) has the potential to exacerbate sensitive areas (especially in the Super-Ego) and weigh a person down for a long time.

I think socionic terms can be used to describe many disorders and accentuations, but you never know whether socionic factors actually caused the condition in the first place.

(ramble ramble)

[anndelise]

Out of curiosity, do you think your bipolarity and borderlineness (if you agree at all with these diagnoses) were "triggered" by something in your past experience, or they developed organically on their own like a congenital condition?

...deleted by Ann just in case... I think that living with certain people (and their types) has the potential to exacerbate sensitive areas (especially in the Super-Ego) and weigh a person down for a long time.

I think socionic terms can be used to describe many disorders and accentuations, but you never know whether socionic factors actually caused the condition in the first place.

(ramble ramble)

Warning, the following may be considered by many on this forum to be "Too Much Info", but to more fully show just how much one's environment plays its role…along with one's type…when it comes to some disorders, the following info is given. If you wish to skip the details, ignore the "Hidden" section.

[spoil:ee9745a421]During the hearing for determining disability (for receiving social security), the psychiatrist was very interested in how far back the first signs of bipolar may have begun. The judge wouldn't allow him to go as far back as he wanted (legally it wasn't needed). But I was showing signs of severe depression up until a few months before I turned 16. At which time I had suddenly switched into manic mode.

Here is where things were/are tricky.
Up until I was 17 1/2, I was in a very abusive household. Enough that even my life was at risk a few times (stranglings, head bashed into concrete, etc). In order to survive, not only did I have to be hyperaware of my ESFp's father's potential sudden mood swings, but I also had to supress a large part of myself (my enfp-ness) so as to avoid being noticed at all by him. This required slinking from room to room and hiding off in corners. It also required anticipating his actions/moods, etc. None of this came natural to me at all, so I was not very good at it. In essence, it forced me into developing an unconscious but hyperawareness of Fe and Ni...along with a bit of an ESFp supervisor mentality (ISTj). Unfortunately, all this...'went through'...(was filtered/interpreted by)...the Ne base...which served to compound the problem, even more.

So not only was I struggling to stay alive, I was also struggling with my own natural inclinations which would have brought me to his attentions more often...but yet the impulses were so strong, and the need to connect with people, and the need to think out loud, and the need to explore (and the developed extreme fear of making even tiny mistakes), etc etc etc. And so this was the majority of the makeup of my most severe depression.

When people would ask me, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" All I could think was "Alive."
But I knew, deep down in my soul, that if things didn't change, I wouldn't make it to my 16th birthday. And as the months drew nearer and nearer to it, so did my despair of ever seeing it. Finally, I said to myself "Enough!" And I fought it...hard. (not my dad, the depression). Unfortunately, I fought so hard that within a week's time I went to the extreme end ...which gave me the labels of mania. Think extreme EP who doesn't expect to see another week.

So at home I was trying to be a teeny tiny mouse, but at school I was all over the place.
Thankfully, though, I had some good teachers who tried supporting me in my more positive actions...and tried guiding me as best they could without knowing what was going on. (if only I'd have paid attention to them)

From this point, I cycled very fast, very extreme, and even had many mixed cycles (which are the worst, imo).

And when I finally ran away, I was finally free to be enfp...but i had so many hangups and fears and issues. At this point, the ptsd symptoms were in full swing: nightmares, constant flashbacks....even a raising of someone's pinky finger would set my adrenline rushing preparing to flee....and/or even having me ducking…or ready to fight back. The fast cycling and mixed cycles didn't help either.

So at this point I was trying to form relationships, trying to make friends, doing crappy at it because for example I believed that 'it's not love unless you're hitting me'. Trying to get close to people, but then suddenly going into self-protective mode at the drop of a pin. And difficulty holding down jobs and with finances due to the constant anxiety (I'd go into "the shakes" which were externally quite seizure like) combined with the ever present feeling that I won't live to my 18th birthday (this one prompted my running away at 17 1/2yo) or my 19th or 6 months from "now", etc.

Due to my actions/behavior and difficulties during this time, I fit the criteria of borderline, definitely.
But I didn't know at the time that I was still running from and avoiding dealing with the experiences I grew up with.
(btw, I refused to be suicidal, though it could have been easy to be that way...as I said before, my life time goal was to be Alive)
My family (my mom and my brothers who I had not grown up with) were trying to get me to get some help, but I was determined to do it on my own (run from it all..heheheh).

Anyways, after my melt down at 23ish, I lived with my mother until I could recouperate enough to try again. By this time we finally got me some therapy (which was bullshit..grr) and my application in for social security. The final judgment on the social security was that it was anticipated that with "aggressive therapy" (meaning lots of work) I could recover. I wasn't able to get that therapy though, and so what's been done has been done on my own and with the help of my mom and brother.

I didn't know it at the time, but most of the therapy I received was basically aimed at turning me from EP into IJ. "Rationality" in the J sense was highly prized and strongly pushed. I felt miserable because I just couldn't meet these demands on me. In and out of therapy I was ridiculed and in other ways made to feel bad about my lack of "logicalness". I didn't start feeling better about my normal impulses and modes of thinking until my brother introduced me to personality typing.

As I started accepting that much of my impulses and modes of thinking were natural, I was finally able to start sorting out the real issues from the pseudo-issues. The pseudo-issues being what were type related, and the real issues being the results of my upbringing. I've learned what a lot of my triggers are and have worked hard at reducing them from my environment. The last of the ptsd was about 4-5 years ago (though once in a while something will get triggered in my sleep). The borderline I now understand. Most of it is being torn between 2 or more conflicting beliefs/desires/etc and often not knowing that I've switched from one to another to another. Setting priorites (see 7 Habits of Highly Successful People) has helped tremendously in that regard. I still have problems with depression and mixed cycles. There are triggers to those too that I'm not fully aware of yet. When talking on this forum I try to be careful to separate the parts that I know are type related from the parts that I'm not sure of from the parts that I believe could be disorder related.

Finally I'm in a pretty supportive environment. I finally see a life ahead of me. I still have to figure out what I want to be when I grow up, though. And a large part of me is comfortable enough here, and fears returning to the mental/emotional storm that I'm not even sure I WANT to grow up.[/spoil:ee9745a421]


One thing I have learned, is that now, a few years ago, and even way back in my early years, I was most definitely NeFi. Everything I went through, and everything I did, have been filtered through Ne and Fi. And while some other types/people may consider ENxp, EP, NF, NFp, to be "disordered", I now know it's not. (even if I do acknowledge that many blonde jokes fully fit enfp and me. )

So in final, while Ne and Fi may lead your mind into funky directions, good & bad, I strongly believe that the environment plays a bigger role into the development of a disorder than one's type. (though one's type may lead to particular disorders over others)

[Creepy-bg]

I wonder why some people wouldn't want to read the bits in the spoiler tags... those are the most interresting/human to me. Also makes me feel like I know you better Ann

[anndelise]

I wonder why some people wouldn't want to read the bits in the spoiler tags... those are the most interresting/human to me. Also makes me feel like I know you better Ann

scary, huh?
:wink:

[Creepy-bg]

I wonder why some people wouldn't want to read the bits in the spoiler tags... those are the most interresting/human to me. Also makes me feel like I know you better Ann

scary, huh?
:wink:

yeah it is... but it's important to talk about. I wish my friend would talk about stuff. The moment anything gets remotely beyond surface level she gets all "I'm getting emotional... I need to go!" and that it. It's frigging frustrating. Maybe I should push... but I don't.

[anndelise]

I wonder why some people wouldn't want to read the bits in the spoiler tags... those are the most interresting/human to me. Also makes me feel like I know you better Ann

scary, huh?
:wink:

yeah it is... but it's important to talk about. I wish my friend would talk about stuff. The moment anything gets remotely beyond surface level she gets all "I'm getting emotional... I need to go!" and that it. It's frigging frustrating. Maybe I should push... but I don't.

I wouldn't recommend pushing. (I don't believe you would anyways)

One of the reasons why I'm as open about it as I am is because I want other to people to know that
a) things happen to people
b) there's a lot more going on in a person than what the outsider sees, don't judge them unless you're willing to walk in the shoes they've walked
c) you're not alone (for the people who've also experienced crap)

But most of the time, I wish I could just not have to mention it at all, that I could just drop/ignore it all and get on with my life...whatever that is..heheh.

While on the one hand, being able to talk about it helps to distance one's self from it all...
on the other hand it forces one to go into areas one may not be ready to go into.
A lot of people aren't ready/able to do that. Nor should they have to, imo.
Also, it can destroy a decent friendship to hear the details...or to tell the details.

[Rick]

Interesting, Ann. Thanks for sharing. So it seems many disorders and accentuations don't just appear out of nowhere, but are linked to pretty specific situations in the past.

[Creepy-bg]

I wonder why some people wouldn't want to read the bits in the spoiler tags... those are the most interresting/human to me. Also makes me feel like I know you better Ann

scary, huh?
:wink:

yeah it is... but it's important to talk about. I wish my friend would talk about stuff. The moment anything gets remotely beyond surface level she gets all "I'm getting emotional... I need to go!" and that it. It's frigging frustrating. Maybe I should push... but I don't.

I wouldn't recommend pushing. (I don't believe you would anyways)

One of the reasons why I'm as open about it as I am is because I want other to people to know that
a) things happen to people
b) there's a lot more going on in a person than what the outsider sees, don't judge them unless you're willing to walk in the shoes they've walked
c) you're not alone (for the people who've also experienced crap)

But most of the time, I wish I could just not have to mention it at all, that I could just drop/ignore it all and get on with my life...whatever that is..heheh.

While on the one hand, being able to talk about it helps to distance one's self from it all...
on the other hand it forces one to go into areas one may not be ready to go into.
A lot of people aren't ready/able to do that. Nor should they have to, imo.
Also, it can destroy a decent friendship to hear the details...or to tell the details.

yeah I'm not going to push... it's just frustrating. I feel better when I can talk about things with people. ATM I'm sort of down to one "good" friend IRL and it feels like I can't talk about shit with her without it setting something off for her. It would be nice if she'd take advantage of the state help she's supposed to be able to get. ehhh... whatever....

[Creepy-bg]

Interesting, Ann. Thanks for sharing. So it seems many disorders and accentuations don't just appear out of nowhere, but are linked to pretty specific situations in the past.

mine definately are... although I didn't remember most of it until way later on in life when I "pushed" myself to remember. FWIW though I've never been "diagnosed" as anything but normal, even though I'm far from it IMO.

[misutii]

So in final, while Ne and Fi may lead your mind into funky directions, good & bad, I strongly believe that the environment plays a bigger role into the development of a disorder than one's type. (though one's type may lead to particular disorders over others)

I agree with this, in fact it correlates pretty well with observations that Jung himself made and that led him to develop a type theory - that people are born with a certain "type", so to speak, and when environmental factors force the person to not be his/herself they become prone to a mental disorder - the type of disorder is to a certain degree related to their type.

[Jimbean]

I used to think that way too. That is something that Jimmy put together a while back.

Here it is:

http://the16types.info/typesview.php?view=oldham

[anndelise]

I should probably also mention that my father was finally diagnosed a few years ago as borderline. I believe he had the borderline issues for a very long time. While the same 'maintaining conflicting beliefs/thoughts/etc' applies to him, I think that it also stemmed from aspects of SeFi that went to extremes for whatever reason.

[spoil:5ee5e60114]In his case, I think as an adult he wasn't ever held accountable for his actions. People would come in and clean up after him, or fall for his "innocent" side. To our neighbors and such he was a great guy who'd help them out if they needed it. Many people wouldn't believe that he could even think to do the things he's done. And even he himself easily forgets his own actions.

When someone responds to protect themselves from him, he views it as an unwarranted attack upon his person and thus he's free to react in any measure of his choosing.

When someone does try to hold him responsible for his actions, he acts as if he's the injured party. The following example was told to me by different family members who were present, the following is what the three narrations have in common:

(when my grandmother was dieing...years after I left) my Uncle was in town and was going to have a late lunch with them. The agreed upon time was 2pm. My step-mother was done making lunch at 12pm-ish. My father expected my uncle to drop his plans and come at the time my step-mother was done. Somehow my uncle was supposed to know all of this...that the food was ready as well as that he was supposed to come running....without anyone phoning him or anything...mind reading?? Anyways, so at a little before 2 my uncle knocks on the door. My father, by this time, is in a rage. He comes out to greet my uncle and my stepsister and her husband ....with a loaded gun. He holds the gun against my uncle's chest and starts screaming at him stuff like how dare my uncle disrespect my step-mother by not being there when she was done preparing the food. My stepsister steps up to try to reason with my father, but he then turns the gun onto her, holding it to her head and threatening to blow it off for smart-mouthing him. Her husband steps up to try to get his wife away, and the gun then gets shoved up into his stomach...digging up into his ribs. Finally, my stepmother is able to distract him and my uncle gets the gun away from him. Then my father got pissed...how dare they take away his gun, who did they think they were?

Evenutally the police showed up and took my dad to jail. Noone would tell my grandmother what happened because they didn't want to upset her...she was already on her deathbed so there was no sense in upsetting her, nothing she could do. Finally she dies, and the family requests for my father to be released for the funeral. He gets released, and my uncle refuses to press charges against him. My stepsister and her husband did. This pissed off my father, how could they do that? How could they press charges on him? He played the victim so well that it divided many of their friends..those who accepted him as a victim...and those who's eyes were finally seeing the things they'd not noticed before. To be honest, I do believe that he himself perceived himself as the victim in it all.

He spent some time in jail. I don't know how long. When he was released he demanded his guns, but part of his parole was that he couldn't have them back after a specified amount of time. Again, he felt that this was unjust...they were his guns after all. After the period was over, he again immediately called my uncle and demanded his guns back. My uncle refused. Legally my father should have his guns back. Realistically..that's a very scary thought.

Did he learn anything from the above? Not a damned thing.
Somehow he got a hold of another gun (purchased? i dunno). He kept my stepmother locked up in the house and wouldn't allow her to contact her daughters. At some point, one of the stepsisters got a hold of my stepmom and said that she was coming to get her out right then. Somehow my father got wind that something was up and held my stepmother hostage for a few hours. The police had the neighborhood blocked off and everything. They finally got my stepmother away.
Were charges pressed? No.

My stepmother finally divorced my dad this year. She had wanted so badly to change him for the better, which is why she had stayed with him for so long. (i believe she is FiSe) When she went at the court appointed time to get her stuff that the court had awarded (and that my father hadn't hidden away), he was ordered to be away. But he wasn't. He was sitting across the stree, in his truck, glaring at them, face all red, clutching the wheel, livid. My stepsister called the police to let them know that he wasn't abiding by the court order nor the restraining order and that they were scared of what he would do. The police saw his record and four cars came out, checked him and his truck for weapons and told him to leave. He left, drove back, saw the cops still there, left, drove back, saw a cop still there, and left again. Eventually the cop left....and almost immediately my father came back. But by then the time limit was just about up, so my stepsister and stepmother left with what they could find that was awarded to my stepmother.

My father bragged to his friends about how he had a half a million dollar life insurance policy on my stepmother that she didn't know about. Noone knows if this is true or not. Everyone is scared of what his next actions are going to be...because they could be ANYthing. All we do know is that there is now a man who's so used to having a "mule" (as he called my stepmother) to do things for him, feed him, clean up after him, bow down to him, and to be used as a means of releasing aggressions and some very twisted sexual preferences. And now he doesn't. He still acts the victim. He honestly can't seem to understand why these people did these things to him.

I don't know what kinds of things he went through as a kid. I do know that my grandmother (FeXi or TiSe) was the kind of person who didn't want any garbage on the family's name. She preferred to ignore these kinds of things, pretend they didn't happen, and/or try to burry/hide it away. For example, he had sexually molested my aunt once when they were dunno how old but preteen/teen ages. As far as I can tell, nothing was really done to him...there were no consequences to his actions.

I think that certain SeFi traits combined with aggressive tendencies and freedom from consequences could easily result in similar responses as his. (for those who can't read, I said "certain SeFi traits", not "SeFi types") I often see similar traits in my daughter (the particular extreme ones) and a couple of other esfps i've known irl. Each time I see even a hint of it i want to run away...often times i do ..to my room or outside so that I don't react violently to it. But my daughter DOES have consequences to her actions. I aim for the most natural consequences as I can. And I try to let her know ahead of time what the consequences will be so that when she does do whatever, and the consequences follow, and she tries to act like she's the injured party, I have a paper to show her that reminds her that she signed an agreement to these consequences yet she chose to do/notdo the behavior and thus chose the consequences. Other times I'm not consistent with this...making agreements like that is very time/energy consuming. It's an unnatural thing for me to do. Richard (SiFe) gets upset that i'm not consistent. He'd be a lot more strict with her than I ever could be. Trying to help guide her so she learns to either reduce those negative aspects or increase the positive aspects of those traits is very hard for me to do. It puts me in a more TiSe-ish mode...which I hate hate hate...with a passion. But so far she's overcome a number of issues she was showing beginning signs of..while still being allowed to be SeFi. A lot of this paragraph may sound quite negative regarding our relationship, but as much as it is difficult for me, and while there are issues, the thing is....when given the choice (by myself or by her father), she prefers to stay with me than to live with her SeFi father. With me, she's allowed to be herself...warts and all. Not so much with her father....despite them being the same type.[/spoil:5ee5e60114]

For my daughter (SeFi), there is constant watch by myself, and others, for any signs of bipolar/borderline disorders. Coming from the background that is there, there's a risk that I could do something that would encourage those in her. Also there seems to be a thought that things like bipolar (not borderline) could be genetic.

If I were to take her in to a psychiatrist or such and complain about certain SeFi aspects of her, I believe she could get some kind of equivalent label. But while those aspects bother me (due to my history), I see them as just certain aspects of her being SeFi. And the times I have contacted a psychiatrist regarding her, it's been for educational testing (when I was homeschooling) and for help on ideas for solving specific issues of hers (dealing with her ability to deal/solve problems and maintain relationships)....most of which are now drastically reduced in severity...enough that she is now able to attend public school.