Which types are likely to say this

[FDG]

Being healthy is hard work. Finding and maintaining a successful relationship is hard work. Raising kids is hard work. Getting organized is hard work. Setting goals, making plans to achieve them, and staying on track is hard work. Even being happy is hard work (true happiness that comes from high self-esteem, not the fake kind that comes from denial and escapism).

it's taken from http://www.stevepavlina.com/

(i ask because i disagree entirely with everything written there)

[FDG]

thanks international finance macroeconomics, that's exactly what I was thinking. I didn't understand why he makes such a big deal of being able to work or exercise or do things that are generally quite normal. Your explanation makes perfect sense. also stuff like:

I used to subscribe to the belief in objective reality. I don’t anymore because I can see just to what a huge degree my thoughts create the reality in which I live. One day I started thinking, “Hmmm… I wonder if such a thing as spheres exist.” I conditioned myself to believe in the possibility of spheres even before seeing them (yes, this is still just a metaphor). I thought that if I was wrong, reality would slap me back. But if my thoughts were at least partially creating my reality, maybe I’d see them. I didn’t get slapped back — the spheres appeared.

[FDG]

I kind of hope the spheres he was imaging at least were boobs

[FDG]

I kind of hope the spheres he was imaging at least were boobs

Boobs are hard work.

but it pays off

[FDG]

i suppose you could imagine that happening as well and string together a series of cause and effect imaginations ad infinitum and say it's real enough to you. but eventually you'd have to eat or go to work or pay taxes or something lol. that'll break your concentration on the imaginations and there goes your "reality manipulation". time for "reality check".. Ni + weak T that quote sounds like to me.
.

Yeah exactly that was my conclusion aswell!

[Megan]

Being healthy is hard work. Finding and maintaining a successful relationship is hard work. Raising kids is hard work. Getting organized is hard work. Setting goals, making plans to achieve them, and staying on track is hard work. Even being happy is hard work (true happiness that comes from high self-esteem, not the fake kind that comes from denial and escapism).

it's taken from http://www.stevepavlina.com/

(i ask because i disagree entirely with everything written there)

I too agree that the quote seems ENFj or at least the quote of someone with weak but who values it most likely and who is more actively goal orientated rather than being in line with the natural relaxed "flow" of things.

Even though it seems somewhat exaggerated and gives me a feeling of tiredness and strain, I think I kind of agree with it in parts in that I do find that some of those things really are challenging for lots of people even though people deal with those issues differently. Some may see the difficulties and try to confront them and some try to escape and avoid them and then there exists some really positive people who cannot really see or acknowledge those things to be challenges. Considering that many or maybe even most people do not actually acheive all/most of their goals (not even all ESTjs) seems to suggest that getting to certain goals really does require "hard work" or are somehow not easy for most due to issues of weak intuition/ethics/logics/sensing and other factors. I even doubt that good relationships are consistently non challenging for anyone really, even the best ones have difficult times if they continue to exist long term.

FDG what exactly do you disagree with about the quote/extract?

[FDG]

I think that if a relationship requires hard work, it's not a good relationship. Relationship that required me to consciously modify my behavior, in restrospect, were doomed. I think that mentally "difficult" work is fun, not "hard". I think the perspective is completely skewed towards a picture of work as something that is done only to achieve goals, and that once a goal is achieved there is always another more that requires more "hard work", making life a pointless rat race towards...what? Making plans is just a very natural way to live. You have to do something? Make a plan, do it, and you have done the thing. What's hard work about that? It's pretty simple. Being healthy hard work? Just just gotta eat some things, and have fun playing some sports, dancing or exercising. Fun, not work, and if you're healthy, you'll also feel much better, whereas what I perceive as being "hard work" always makes me feel like shit.

Self-esteem has been demonstrated to be largely inborn, so if it's hard work, that just means nature hasn't endowed you with the right charateristics.

So either I've born lucky, or I perceive life in a different way from him, or he's a stupid fool that likes to think about himself as a prophet. My propensity is towards the latter.

[XoX]

Being healthy is hard work. Finding and maintaining a successful relationship is hard work. Raising kids is hard work. Getting organized is hard work. Setting goals, making plans to achieve them, and staying on track is hard work. Even being happy is hard work (true happiness that comes from high self-esteem, not the fake kind that comes from denial and escapism).

it's taken from http://www.stevepavlina.com/

(i ask because i disagree entirely with everything written there)

I kind of tend to agree with the writer... All of these things require consistent every day hard effort from me which I find kind of taxing. But should I not do it I would lose all these things (which has in a way been demonstrated in the past) and that is worse than forcing myself to do all that stuff day in day out. I occasionally still lapse and lose it for a while but I'm getting better at bouncing back. However I can't do much partying or "having fun" if I wish to keep on track. A week of relaxing and partying and playing computer games and I have lost my direction and goals and willpower to do anything shitty. And it takes time to get back on track. I need to push it every day.

[FDG]

I think now the difference is clearly between positivism and negativism. I was discussing this once with my girlfriend: going to college everyday.

Me: Ahh, going to college feels like a vacation. You go there, learn things, meet people, talk with smart teachers, keep your brain working.

Her: Ahh, damn I have to go college, wake up early, take notes all throughout the lesson, and see X Y Z that I don't like.

I suppose then it's mostly a matter of perspective.

[Kristiina]

I think now the difference is clearly between positivism and negativism. I was discussing this once with my girlfriend: going to college everyday.

Me: Ahh, going to college feels like a vacation. You go there, learn things, meet people, talk with smart teachers, keep your brain working.

Her: Ahh, damn I have to go college, wake up early, take notes all throughout the lesson, and see X Y Z that I don't like.

I suppose then it's mostly a matter of perspective.

Lately I've been trying to figure out (with no success) if positivists have some functions that they are very optimistic about. I don't whine about everything. :wink:

The quote itself (...hard work...) sounded very ESTj. I am the goal-achiever ENFj and I think everything is hopelessly difficult for me, but it's not hard work - otherwise I would end up admitting that I really have done something that was hard work and I should praise myself. Nope, I tell myself that it's simple and everyone can do it, and look at how many people have done the same, but it's difficult for me even though it's easy and therefore there's something wrong with me.

[Hitta]

Being healthy is hard work. Finding and maintaining a successful relationship is hard work. Raising kids is hard work. Getting organized is hard work. Setting goals, making plans to achieve them, and staying on track is hard work. Even being happy is hard work (true happiness that comes from high self-esteem, not the fake kind that comes from denial and escapism).

it's taken from http://www.stevepavlina.com/

(i ask because i disagree entirely with everything written there)

Retarded ISTps and ESTjs lol. My uncle says shit like that all the time.

[XoX]

I think now the difference is clearly between positivism and negativism. I was discussing this once with my girlfriend: going to college everyday.

Me: Ahh, going to college feels like a vacation. You go there, learn things, meet people, talk with smart teachers, keep your brain working.

Her: Ahh, damn I have to go college, wake up early, take notes all throughout the lesson, and see X Y Z that I don't like.

That again makes me sound negativist. I can always relate too well with these (supposedly) negativist descriptions. I wonder if it really is this black and white.

I hated college (not as much as I hated high school though because I had more freedom setting my schedule and choose what to study). Studying another subject as a major might have helped though. Then again I did at least one course in 5 different subjects and in 2 languages and I disliked all of them. Except some practical statistics courses were really cool and I absorbed that material quickly and even did some statistics stuff during my freetime (like trying to predict the results of soccer games etc).

I think everything is hopelessly difficult for me, but it's not hard work - otherwise I would end up admitting that I really have done something that was hard work and I should praise myself. Nope, I tell myself that it's simple and everyone can do it, and look at how many people have done the same, but it's difficult for me even though it's easy and therefore there's something wrong with me.

I'm a bit like that but not quite. I do see some things as really hard work. And I see it being not only hard work for me but hard work for almost everyone. I do praise and celebrate when I can successfully do something which is "hard work" but the feeling is very temporary. The next day I have forgotten about it and can derive no more pleasure from it. Also I can never get pleasure for doing the same "hard work" twice. It is not considered "hard work" anymore if I have managed to do it once.

[FDG]

One downside of my perspective is that I think everything I do is basically worthless, since everybody could do it pretty easily.

By the way, it's not always that black and white, I agree. There are only certain moments that make clear the general perspective of a person towards life, be it limiting or empowering (I think a Se-ESTp for example would share my stance towards the issue whereas a Se-ISTj wouldn't, in spite of them theorethically being negative and positive).

[aka-kitsune]

I think that if a relationship requires hard work, it's not a good relationship. Relationship that required me to consciously modify my behavior, in restrospect, were doomed.

Then how do you grow at all? It's interesting to hear someone say that they think good relationships just "are". I recently was talking to someone and he was telling me exactly how he DID learn to consciously modify his behavior in relationships and found they always got better. His willingness to learn a different strategy or technique made him more attractive too.

So, when difficulties crop up in your relationship, you never adapt? You drop them and move on?

Intimate relationships are really never easy for me. They'll always require a lot of conscious thought and behavior modification. Because they're important to me, though, I'm willing to examine my thoughts and reactions. Besides, what do "easy" relationships teach you? How do you ever stretch that comfort zone?

Making plans is just a very natural way to live. You have to do something? Make a plan, do it, and you have done the thing. What's hard work about that? It's pretty simple. Being healthy hard work? Just just gotta eat some things, and have fun playing some sports, dancing or exercising. Fun, not work, and if you're healthy, you'll also feel much better, whereas what I perceive as being "hard work" always makes me feel like shit.

Some of us are crap at making plans.

Exercising just isn't fun for me most of the time, but I still do it, because I know it's a good thing for my health. Eating healthy also requires a lot of conscious effort. It's just too easy to be lazy.

Self-esteem has been demonstrated to be largely inborn, so if it's hard work, that just means nature hasn't endowed you with the right charateristics.

So, the rest of us cursed with self-doubt should just give up? I largely believe that people to whom things come easy don't really appreciate them.

Not to say that website is entirely accurate, but I can see some of the points made, despite the pop-psych undertones.

[FDG]

I think that if a relationship requires hard work, it's not a good relationship. Relationship that required me to consciously modify my behavior, in restrospect, were doomed.

Then how do you grow at all? It's interesting to hear someone say that they think good relationships just "are". I recently was talking to someone and he was telling me exactly how he DID learn to consciously modify his behavior in relationships and found they always got better. His willingness to learn a different strategy or technique made him more attractive too.

So, when difficulties crop up in your relationship, you never adapt? You drop them and move on?

Depends on what kind of difficulties are. If those require me to change the core of my personality, it's not a good relationship imho. Otherwise, stupid changes like being more polite or not cursing or avoid some particular behavior a person doesn't like aren't "hard work". You like the person, you do the thing. Easy. No work at all.

Intimate relationships are really never easy for me. They'll always require a lot of conscious thought and behavior modification. Because they're important to me, though, I'm willing to examine my thoughts and reactions. Besides, what do "easy" relationships teach you? How do you ever stretch that comfort zone?

They give me the freedom to live life at its fullest without having to cripple with anxiety due to quarrels and misunderstandings. I can't do anything when I'm in relationship pain, so the only strategy I have is to avoid it. Other people are better able to handle this, I recognize I'm not - other people are not as good at handling physical pain as I am, but are better at psychogical. Personal attitudes.

Exercising just isn't fun for me most of the time, but I still do it, because I know it's a good thing for my health. Eating healthy also requires a lot of conscious effort. It's just too easy to be lazy.

You see? It's just a matter of perspective.

So, the rest of us cursed with self-doubt should just give up? I largely believe that people to whom things come easy don't really appreciate them.

Depends if they take them for granted, or if they know that they're good.

[jas05]

I'd go for ENTj.

[Jimbean]

Just by that quote alone, there is now way I could even guess a type for that person.

[Megan]

I think that if a relationship requires hard work, it's not a good relationship. Relationship that required me to consciously modify my behavior, in restrospect, were doomed.

I do think that too many people are in relationships that require hard work or the changing of the core of who they are but I think relationships do take some extra effort at times to keep them running smoothly. In general, It seems to me that you find a lot of things that most people find difficult or unpleasant really easy and even fun, I really wish I could say the same. It might be negativist/positivist as you have speculated or it might be related like someone else said. I wonder how INTps feel about your perpective and if they find the things like maintaining relationships, staying healthy, sticking to plans and so forth as easy and near effortless. There would be no obesity problems, drug addictions issues and far less unemployed or poor people around if others found things as easy I suspect.

[Gilly]

Well, in my opinion, if you have high expectations of others, then you should be willing to meet theirs of you. So how much you have to work is dependent on how much you expect; you get what you put into a relationship, usually.

[FDG]

I think that if a relationship requires hard work, it's not a good relationship.

Relationships should not be hard work, relationships should make hard work easier.

Exactly, that's the whole point of socionics imho too.

Well, in my opinion, if you have high expectations of others, then you should be willing to meet theirs of you. So how much you have to work is dependent on how much you expect; you get what you put into a relationship, usually.

But see, putting effort in a close relationship isn't hard work, imho. You like the person, you do things for hir, go out with hir, etc-etc-etc

[redbaron]

I think the original quote sounded like someone under a lot of stress. I have felt that way at times. I think it could come from any type, given the right circumstances. Even good relationships sometimes have their periods when they are hard work. Obviously it's not hard work all the time, that would defeat the purpose but you can't expect smooth sailing for the next 50 years, nuh-uh, sorry. Life intervenes and stuff happens. Raising kids....more work. Not to say that they're not enjoyable! I love my children but there are times that they zap every ounce of energy I have, leaving exactly none for my spouse or myself. From the time that my twins were born until my youngest was five, I lived in a complete fog. It wasn't horrible, just a lot of focused work and perseverance. There are peaks and valleys. This guy was in a valley when he wrote that but I'll bet he doesn't feel that way all the time.

[FDG]

I must say I don't feel EVERYTHING is easy, just the things he lists there.

It's very hard to make friends with a group of people and bond in it, being "part" of it. It's very hard to connect with individuals in order to reach a common goal together. It's very hard to influence people to do something for you. It's very hard to be polite with people you're not very close to, it's very hard to go to speak with professors, it's very hard to ask for help in things, it's very hard to say no to requests...there are some things that are "hard", but not the ones he mentions.

[redbaron]

I must say I don't feel EVERYTHING is easy, just the things he lists there.

It's very hard to make friends with a group of people and bond in it, being "part" of it. It's very hard to connect with individuals in order to reach a common goal together. It's very hard to influence people to do something for you. It's very hard to be polite with people you're not very close to, it's very hard to go to speak with professors, it's very hard to ask for help in things, it's very hard to say no to requests...there are some things that are "hard", but not the ones he mentions.

Interesting! It's not at all hard for me to say no to requests or to ask for help or influence people to do something for me (well, depending on what that is). It's very easy for me to be polite with people I'm not close to. Okay well so maybe you're right--maybe it is type related after all.

[Blaze]

I must say I don't feel EVERYTHING is easy, just the things he lists there.

It's very hard to make friends with a group of people and bond in it, being "part" of it. It's very hard to connect with individuals in order to reach a common goal together. It's very hard to influence people to do something for you. It's very hard to be polite with people you're not very close to, it's very hard to go to speak with professors, it's very hard to ask for help in things, it's very hard to say no to requests...there are some things that are "hard", but not the ones he mentions.

Interesting! It's not at all hard for me to say no to requests or to ask for help or influence people to do something for me (well, depending on what that is). It's very easy for me to be polite with people I'm not close to. Okay well so maybe you're right--maybe it is type related after all.

huh i feel exactly like FDG does! yes, type related. i mean, i can do these things now, but it took years of practice lol.

[redbaron]

I must say I don't feel EVERYTHING is easy, just the things he lists there.

It's very hard to make friends with a group of people and bond in it, being "part" of it. It's very hard to connect with individuals in order to reach a common goal together. It's very hard to influence people to do something for you. It's very hard to be polite with people you're not very close to, it's very hard to go to speak with professors, it's very hard to ask for help in things, it's very hard to say no to requests...there are some things that are "hard", but not the ones he mentions.

Interesting! It's not at all hard for me to say no to requests or to ask for help or influence people to do something for me (well, depending on what that is). It's very easy for me to be polite with people I'm not close to. Okay well so maybe you're right--maybe it is type related after all.

huh i feel exactly like FDG does! yes, type related. i mean, i can do these things now, but it took years of practice lol.

I do remember in college--it was hard to go talk to a professor. I was very shy about that. I've overcome a lot of that shyness since then.

[FDG]

I must say I don't feel EVERYTHING is easy, just the things he lists there.

It's very hard to make friends with a group of people and bond in it, being "part" of it. It's very hard to connect with individuals in order to reach a common goal together. It's very hard to influence people to do something for you. It's very hard to be polite with people you're not very close to, it's very hard to go to speak with professors, it's very hard to ask for help in things, it's very hard to say no to requests...there are some things that are "hard", but not the ones he mentions.

Interesting! It's not at all hard for me to say no to requests or to ask for help or influence people to do something for me (well, depending on what that is). It's very easy for me to be polite with people I'm not close to. Okay well so maybe you're right--maybe it is type related after all.

huh i feel exactly like FDG does! yes, type related. i mean, i can do these things now, but it took years of practice lol.

I do remember in college--it was hard to go talk to a professor. I was very shy about that. I've overcome a lot of that shyness since then.

It's kind of strange because I am the opposite of shy with random people. It's just when there are authorities that uggghh

[XoX]

I do remember in college--it was hard to go talk to a professor. I was very shy about that. I've overcome a lot of that shyness since then.

It's kind of strange because I am the opposite of shy with random people. It's just when there are authorities that uggghh

I remember it was extremely easy to talk to professors (if I had a clear subject to talk about) but very hard to talk to most other students. Small talk was hard with anybody but with professors you usually had a clear topic that you wanted to talk about.

[Blaze]

yes....socionics says just ignore your 3rd and 4th functions and focus on your strengths. the more i think about this the more i think it's impractical and wrong. you really can't just ignore information elements and the things that are important to other people. if you do, you'll pay the price. and i do think that weaker functions can be substantially improved with concerted effort.

being married to my SLE ex helped me to toughen up and get more disciplined. working in human services for years and getting into management helped me to improve my relationship skills at least to a level where i have been able to keep stable relationships with staff.

i will never be an infj or an isfj, ethics will never come naturally to me. but with practice i can at least be "good enough" and identify situations that don't require me to have leading Fi, and choose those to be in.

i'll never be a smooth talking huckster like SLE afraid of nothing and fearlessly leading others like the Pied Piper, but hey i can have a reasonable amount of toughness and practicality to suit my purposes.

i just think that trying to find a way to avoid self development by leaning on your dual is somewhat of a cop out. yes, find people that you resonate with that you are comfortable with and that enhance you. but don't expect perfection or emotional rescue. take responsibility for yourself and your actions.

i think i'm getting close to being done with socionics; esp since there's not enough of this kind of talk here at the forum.

[XoX]

yes....socionics says just ignore your 3rd and 4th functions and focus on your strengths.

Imho socionics says you should focus on your stronger functions and let other people focus on theirs. Don't try to build your career or relationships on your weaknesses and so on. If you are a short distance runner don't try to be the best marathon runner. Try to be the best short distance runner.

Edit: what I mean is i disagree with "ignore". Just delegate those to others.

[Blaze]

yes....socionics says just ignore your 3rd and 4th functions and focus on your strengths.

Imho socionics says you should focus on your stronger functions and let other people focus on theirs. Don't try to build your career or relationships on your weaknesses and so on. If you are a short distance runner don't try to be the best marathon runner. Try to be the best short distance runner.

Edit: what I mean is i disagree with "ignore". Just delegate those to others.

yes perhaps ignore was not the right word. you can't always delegate though. how can you delegate Fi polr exactly (to use an example?)

[XoX]

yes....socionics says just ignore your 3rd and 4th functions and focus on your strengths.

Imho socionics says you should focus on your stronger functions and let other people focus on theirs. Don't try to build your career or relationships on your weaknesses and so on. If you are a short distance runner don't try to be the best marathon runner. Try to be the best short distance runner.

Edit: what I mean is i disagree with "ignore". Just delegate those to others.

yes perhaps ignore was not the right word. you can't always delegate though. how can you delegate Fi polr exactly (to use an example?)

Find your dual and make him/her fight off the Fi-ppl harassing you

[Megan]

i just think that trying to find a way to avoid self development by leaning on your dual is somewhat of a cop out. yes, find people that you resonate with that you are comfortable with and that enhance you. but don't expect perfection or emotional rescue. take responsibility for yourself and your actions.

i think i'm getting close to being done with socionics; esp since there's not enough of this kind of talk here at the forum.

I agree with this to some extent, I think the weaker functions cannot be ignored and that they can probably be developed or managed in some way. Realistically I do not see how one can just rely on two funtions all the time for the multitude of things we need to do to exist. I dislike that duality seems like some sort of emotional rescue thing and without a dual, socionics often gives me the impression that one is a somewhat half functioning person.

[FDG]

i just think that trying to find a way to avoid self development by leaning on your dual is somewhat of a cop out. yes, find people that you resonate with that you are comfortable with and that enhance you. but don't expect perfection or emotional rescue. take responsibility for yourself and your actions.

i think i'm getting close to being done with socionics; esp since there's not enough of this kind of talk here at the forum.

I agree with this to some extent, I think the weaker functions cannot be ignored and that they can probably be developed or managed in some way. Realistically I do not see how one can just rely on two funtions all the time for the multitude of things we need to do to exist. I dislike that duality seems like some sort of emotional rescue thing and without a dual, socionics often gives me the impression that one is a somewhat half functioning person.

You can walk by feet or bike places. Ultimately, for a given amount of time, the energy expended (and the coincident amount of work) is equal, but by bike you will arrive further.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Well he's right to some extent but there's probably a less....umm obnoxious way he could have said that.

If you're not ahem inclined to do something, it's always gonna take more work. Sometimes even just being yourself is hard, he has a point...but whether he likes it or not, the best relationships are always gonna be those comfortable and easy ones, because even if he admits it or not, he's an easy human whore just like the rest of us. If you're kind of an annoying person to begin with, I suppose then yeah, you have to work at being naturally awesome like the rest of us.

[Megan]

You can walk by feet or bike places. Ultimately, for a given amount of time, the energy expended (and the coincident amount of work) is equal, but by bike you will arrive further.

I see your point, from the standpoint of efficiency a bike is better/faster. I guess as long as people remember that they have the option to walk in the absence of the bike then that's ok. Sometimes even with the bike it is great to walk at times so as not to get too dependent on it.

[XoX]

You can walk by feet or bike places. Ultimately, for a given amount of time, the energy expended (and the coincident amount of work) is equal, but by bike you will arrive further.

I see your point, from the standpoint of efficiency a bike is better/faster. I guess as long as people remember that they have the option to walk in the absence of the bike then that's ok. Sometimes even with the bike it is great to walk at times so as not to get too dependent on it.

What if you have to walk on needles?

[Megan]

You can walk by feet or bike places. Ultimately, for a given amount of time, the energy expended (and the coincident amount of work) is equal, but by bike you will arrive further.

I see your point, from the standpoint of efficiency a bike is better/faster. I guess as long as people remember that they have the option to walk in the absence of the bike then that's ok. Sometimes even with the bike it is great to walk at times so as not to get too dependent on it.

What if you have to walk on needles?

I guess you would then have to put some type of metal or reasonably hard/pierce resistant material to the bottom of your shoes if the soles aren't already hard enough .

[XoX]

I guess you would then have to put some type of metal or reasonably hard/pierce resistant material to the bottom of your shoes if the soles aren't already hard enough .

One problem I have with this jack-of-all-functions thinking is that it fails in a competitive environment. In this kind of environment you have to rely on your strengths. You can't compete with a weak function against someone who has it as a strong function. For example if ESTj tries to compete against ENFj using Fe -> the ESTj loses for sure. Against an ENFj the ESTj has to rely on Te. Only way to win.

It is more beneficial to direct your energy in perfecting your strongest functions than to try to force your weak functions to become stronger. Too much effort, not much results. And you still cant compete against those have it as their strength. It is beneficial to become dependent on your bike as you put it. If you have potential to be the best biker then just keep on perfecting your biking skills. Don't switch to walking. Don't try to walk against people who can run faster. That's my opinion. You can see this happening in any competitive environment from real life to all kind of games. Only way to compete successfully is to find your strengths and specialize further and further and aim for positions where those strengths are most useful. As a jack-of-all-trades you can only go so far. On higher levels of competition there are no roles for these people because you can always find an expert who does the job better. That's why I am aiming to find my strengths and perfect them to the max. Be the best biker. And if no one needs a biker in my current environment -> I search for a new environment.

[FDG]

Yes, I agree with XoX.

[Gilly]

Funny, I "beat" SLEs and LSIs in Se all the time. You just have to know their weak point.

Being really tall actually helps a lot.