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Thread: EIE/ENFj finding groups to be evil

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    Default EIE/ENFj finding groups to be evil

    As an ENFJ beta I find groups to be pure evil. I'm referring to groups at work. I find Deltas to be the particular culprit as they quickly assess you and take kindness for weakness and frame you as incompetant in front of your boss, and make themselves see indisposable in the work place, when really they're basically out for themselves. I really wish, in my life, that I had never given up my right to be assertive. As aggressive as I can be I really want things to be peaceful and functional and I find that people, particularly gammas and deltas together, try to eliminate the viability of betas. and with gammas being my likely type of work interaction I dont really know what conclusions to come to . I'm curious what you betas think and what your experiences have been in the working world or any competative arena...and i'll wait for a delta to chime in and try to shut the entire thread down swiftly rather than analyize anything.


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    Generally ENFj bullshit a lot, but not on big things, on things that are pretty trivial. For example, making an unimportant deadline look like the end of the world. This way we learn not to take them seriously when they try to catch our attention, even when they're right.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Generally ENFj bullshit a lot, but not on big things, on things that are pretty trivial. For example, making an unimportant deadline look like the end of the world. This way we learn not to take them seriously when they try to catch our attention, even when they're right.

    I would think an ENFP, the vigilant type, would be more likely to make an unimportant deadline look serious. Also it takes a certain level of attention to detalis most people would overlook to do things like teach or be a social worker and i think ENFJs like ISTJs can do good hard work without being acknowledged for it. Also I dont like the fact you don't state your type I think its ambiguous. And basically I'm looking for feedback from other Betas in relationship to their experience with groups. And if you're a delta, btw, I dont understand why you're posting here.

    lefty
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    Default Re: Groups Are Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    As an ENFJ beta I find groups to be pure evil. I'm referring to groups at work. I find Deltas to be the particular culprit as they quickly assess you and take kindness for weakness and frame you as incompetant in front of your boss, and make themselves see indisposable in the work place, when really they're basically out for themselves. I really wish, in my life, that I had never given up my right to be assertive. As aggressive as I can be I really want things to be peaceful and functional and I find that people, particularly gammas and deltas together, try to eliminate the viability of betas. and with gammas being my likely type of work interaction I dont really know what conclusions to come to . I'm curious what you betas think and what your experiences have been in the working world or any competative arena...and i'll wait for a delta to chime in and try to shut the entire thread down swiftly rather than analyize anything.


    lefty
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    ? I'm not sure Deltas are known for shutting stuff down generally speaking, or taking kindness for weakness and stuff like that. What kind of circumstances are you talking about?
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    I am rather uncompetitive. But if I want to win, I will... because I'll devote a lot of energy to it. Of course I'll also assess whether or not I can win.

    As for groups... I'm feeling rather apathetic.... Ultimately I find grouping people unhelpful. But categories are very helpful as tools for understanding... as long as they don't become everything.... or don't permanently become everything...

    I have been noticing that sometimes people take an entire quadra and have lots of qualms with anyone in that quadra... I was thinking this is very not good... However, I was also thinking it might demonstrate that the person has a waaaaay better understanding of quadra values than I do. And that is good.

    I'm having an apathetic day...

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    Default Re: Groups Are Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Elro
    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    As an ENFJ beta I find groups to be pure evil. I'm referring to groups at work. I find Deltas to be the particular culprit as they quickly assess you and take kindness for weakness and frame you as incompetant in front of your boss, and make themselves see indisposable in the work place, when really they're basically out for themselves. I really wish, in my life, that I had never given up my right to be assertive. As aggressive as I can be I really want things to be peaceful and functional and I find that people, particularly gammas and deltas together, try to eliminate the viability of betas. and with gammas being my likely type of work interaction I dont really know what conclusions to come to . I'm curious what you betas think and what your experiences have been in the working world or any competative arena...and i'll wait for a delta to chime in and try to shut the entire thread down swiftly rather than analyize anything.


    lefty
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    ? I'm not sure Deltas are known for shutting stuff down generally speaking, or taking kindness for weakness and stuff like that. What kind of circumstances are you talking about?
    I think deltas are hardcore passive aggressive. And I've seen evidence of it in almost every job I've had in the last two years.

    Example: A ENFP female talking about a mentorship program. This excited me a lot, as an ENFJ mentor. It turns out it was for employees with senority to step in and say everyone new was doing a bad job and to give themselves an attempt at a promotion and greater responsibility.

    Example: An ESTJ I helped get hired into a new job, progressively erroded my viability in a company until I looked incompetant in the eyes of staff, but was mainly the result of him not wanting to work hard .

    Example: An ENFP female refuses to train me and later when the boss is present criticizes a method I have and says "you can come to us when you have a problem," attempting to set me up for failure when I dont ask questions immediately.

    Example: An ESTP female uses the limited internet allowed in the office (most computers dont have it). The ISTP office manager notices a strange message on her computer, when she has called in sick for the day, and recommends the internet be disabled on her computer, which it is. This vindicates the ENFP in the office who was hoping to move to another computer with internet access, but was repremanded for sitting there all day without permission.

    I've been shut down by ISFJs operating with heavy delta involvement, too. It's all bullshit. I really want to be somewhere where my abilities are useful, but that's primarily in an advanced job and I need to undertake the schooling for it, but I can hardly do that while these fucking deltas loosen my grip on everything I try to do for myself.

    lefty
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    4w5

    P.S. thanks for your feedback and interest.

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    Maybe you're seeing passive-agressive people and noticing that some of them are deltas and then jumping to the conclusion that all deltas are passive agressive? I mean, I really don't think passive-aggressiveness is really quadra specific. Passive-aggressive people just haven't learned to be assertive and stand up for their rights, or to not trample on other people's rights. It can be hard to be fully assertive when there's such an emphasis on being nice all the time in society. Most people I think (who are aware of it) try to work on being more assertive, but it doesn't just happen over night. I mean, if one is not being assertive, then passive-aggressive behavior patterns may emerge. Being assertive is the best way in my mind (and also the hardest way)... it is the way that ensures ones own rights as well as the rights of others. It may not always be nice, but it is the most "loving" way to be towards others IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Generally ENFj bullshit a lot, but not on big things, on things that are pretty trivial. For example, making an unimportant deadline look like the end of the world. This way we learn not to take them seriously when they try to catch our attention, even when they're right.

    I would think an ENFP, the vigilant type, would be more likely to make an unimportant deadline look serious. Also it takes a certain level of attention to detalis most people would overlook to do things like teach or be a social worker and i think ENFJs like ISTJs can do good hard work without being acknowledged for it. Also I dont like the fact you don't state your type I think its ambiguous. And basically I'm looking for feedback from other Betas in relationship to their experience with groups. And if you're a delta, btw, I dont understand why you're posting here.

    lefty
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    See? You're not helping, making a big deal out of nothing. This way people from gamma and delta won't take you seriously.

    I also don't think you're smart enough and/or mentally sane enough to handle a more difficult job with more responsibilities. Those are just delusions of grandeur.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Default Re: Groups Are Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Elro
    ? I'm not sure Deltas are known for shutting stuff down generally speaking, or taking kindness for weakness and stuff like that.
    True kindness is strength, not weakness. I greatly respect kind people. It takes a certain depth of character to be like that.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    Default Re: Groups Are Evil

    I must be really bored, I'm about to make my 2nd or 3rd post ever in this quadra...

    Instead of looking at how others do their job and how they piss you off, figure out what you yourself need to do to get ahead. Your post with a bunch of examples looks to me like someone who's using everyone else as an excuse for themself not making it where they want to.

    And I've seen evidence of it in almost every job I've had in the last two years.
    How many jobs does the past two years consist of? If you don't care to say at least... The way you worded it makes me think more than a couple... to me this is usually a bad thing unless there's real reasons...
    I don't know you one bit so I couldn't come to any more than a few conclusions from this thread.
    You seem young, probably still in school, haven't found a job you really like... Probably related to still being young and in school...
    usually this ties in to why people get trampled on by others at work...
    You've probably quit at least one job because you had a problem with another person or didn't like a boss you worked for.
    Whenever you leave a job it's because of someone/something else and not yourself.
    If I'm completely off base here then please feel free to tell me, I'll apologize in advance if I'm that wrong. i just think that people who have the problems you seem to have at work usually haven't been through it enough to know how to handle it and just need to learn how to work with in this type of situation.

    can do good hard work without being acknowledged for it.
    ANY type can do this to some extent.

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    there are some really dumb people around here. a second ago i was ready to award you some kind of prize for dumbest, most arrogant new user. i am no longer quite as sure, there are a lot of others that come to mind.

    but you're definitely high in the running. keep it up, and i'll see what i can do to get you what you deserve.

    edit: it should be rather obvious who this is directed towards, but to minimize unnecessary animosity: this is directed towards a certain moron claiming to be a 4w5 ENFJ/EIE (im not really sure which)

    edit: ok, clearly this person claims to be EIE rather than ENFJ. my mistake.

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    Default Re: Groups Are Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    ...and i'll wait for a delta to chime in and try to shut the entire thread down swiftly rather than analyize anything. enfj
    4w5
    :wink:

    I think any person would find it hard to work in an environment of their opposing quadra. Being in the minority sucks. I recall reading a Delta thread and they were complaining about the Beta environment perceiving them as losers/nerds....something along those lines. I really have no advice but I do feel for you lefty because I find that even posting in the alpha and delta subforums taxing. That's not to say I don't like them/appreciate them in some way but I always find them going off topic or whatever.....just generally not catering for my immediate needs/objective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    there are some really dumb people around here. a second ago i was ready to award you some kind of prize for dumbest, most arrogant new user. i am no longer quite as sure, there are a lot of others that come to mind.

    but you're definitely high in the running. keep it up, and i'll see what i can do to get you what you deserve.
    how niff is this? lol

    @lefty: what cracka said. that's work. that's why they call it work. ever watch "The Office"? or read Dilbert? these things exist because of the frustrations you are expressing here. BTW passive-aggressive is the work place code. one way to combat is through the use of facts and data which are irrefutable. and learn to laugh at this stuff.

    i don't know about deltas running things, but i do see what you mean about enfp's at work since i've worked with several of them who are like that. also known as Alpha Weasels (no offense to any enfp's here) for further information on Alpha Weasals, read Food Court Druids, Cherohonkees, and Other Creatures Unique to the Republic. This book should put you in a better frame of mind to play the game at work.

    ILE

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    yomama
    Last edited by betterthandead; 08-02-2008 at 04:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by betterthandead
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Generally ENFj bullshit a lot, but not on big things, on things that are pretty trivial. For example, making an unimportant deadline look like the end of the world. This way we learn not to take them seriously when they try to catch our attention, even when they're right.
    You are right on point about this. They dislike groups because a "clique" group they're not part of to the ENFJ's mind is working against him/her.

    It's okay to not have everyone's attention on you.
    I'm a mentor. If someone needs something and i know how to do it then I will make sure they can do it flawlessly and if they're fearful ill make them feel better about. i think i suffer from sucky training from self absorbed people who aren't as good at educing potential in others as I am. so I'm stuck figuring out how to survive until i can educe my own potential and not need them anymore.

    p.s. i find myself trying to mimic INFJs in delta groups, but the gig doesn't last very long. to me deltas are jackasses that are hostile and think they have to verbalize every thought they have all day and dont have any type of internal filter. no offense.

    lefty
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    Default Re: Groups Are Evil

    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle
    Quote Originally Posted by lefty
    ...and i'll wait for a delta to chime in and try to shut the entire thread down swiftly rather than analyize anything. enfj
    4w5
    :wink:

    I think any person would find it hard to work in an environment of their opposing quadra. Being in the minority sucks. I recall reading a Delta thread and they were complaining about the Beta environment perceiving them as losers/nerds....something along those lines. I really have no advice but I do feel for you lefty because I find that even posting in the alpha and delta subforums taxing. That's not to say I don't like them/appreciate them in some way but I always find them going off topic or whatever.....just generally not catering for my immediate needs/objective.
    thank you.
    lefty

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    How many people do you have to work with? Is there factions already in place within the workplace? If the group is big enough it will have already clustered into smaller groups. Personally I'd be searching for the most intelligent sub-group, they're usually harder to spot at first because they're almost always low-key. If you can find and befriend these people you'll at least have worthwhile conversations at lunch and, in time, connections to a better job or a position higher in your own. Avoid the flashy gossippy people that seem really popular and impressive, people pretend to like them but in reality don't. Don't be overtly aggressive unless you're sure it will get you what you want. In all likelihood it will backfire.
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii
    How many people do you have to work with? Is there factions already in place within the workplace? If the group is big enough it will have already clustered into smaller groups. Personally I'd be searching for the most intelligent sub-group, they're usually harder to spot at first because they're almost always low-key. If you can find and befriend these people you'll at least have worthwhile conversations at lunch and, in time, connections to a better job or a position higher in your own. Avoid the flashy gossippy people that seem really popular and impressive, people pretend to like them but in reality don't. Don't be overtly aggressive unless you're sure it will get you what you want. In all likelihood it will backfire.
    man, this is just the IEI advice which is so effing useful to somebody like me. lol. simple, easy to understand and implement. cuts through the chase. :-)

    ILE

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    It's just a miscommunication problem. I had this one teacher I conflicted with, she thought I was mean and arrogant and I thought SHE was mean and arrogant but we really both nice and passive people.

    Now I know that if people tease me, chances are they like me, they don't hate me. I guess if you don't have a very strong physical presence, and if you get timid easily you will see neutral things as negative, and positive things as neutral. And negative things as things that make you stop living life.

    Really how many people are going to intentionally hurt you? Not bloody many. No offense but nobody is just that important to worry about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves
    It's just a miscommunication problem. I had this one teacher I conflicted with, she thought I was mean and arrogant and I thought SHE was mean and arrogant but we really both nice and passive people.

    Now I know that if people tease me, chances are they like me, they don't hate me. I guess if you don't have a very strong physical presence, and if you get timid easily you will see neutral things as negative, and positive things as neutral. And negative things as things that make you stop living life.

    Really how many people are going to intentionally hurt you? Not bloody many. No offense but nobody is just that important to worry about.
    why are you not disclosing your temprament?

    lefty
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    I don't know if all ENFj are like that, but my mom is pretty incompetent for a lot of things. She's having a really hard time finishing her career, even if it's the most simple one out there (management). Here if a person can't do fine in any other "serious" careers such as law, medicine, engineering and such studies management... or tourism... or whatever.

    My dad is more than 60 years old and learned to use the computer very well after a few months. My mom has been trying for years and still struggles.

    If ENFj are good at something besides convincing people of their (often baseless) goals I would like to know it.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    I don't know if all ENFj are like that, but my mom is pretty incompetent for a lot of things. She's having a really hard time finishing her career, even if it's the most simple one out there (management). Here if a person can't do fine in any other "serious" careers such as law, medicine, engineering and such studies management... or tourism... or whatever.

    My dad is more than 60 years old and learned to use the computer very well after a few months. My mom has been trying for years and still struggles.

    If ENFj are good at something besides convincing people of their (often baseless) goals I would like to know it.
    So you're basically saying that your mother has no Te so she's good for nothing?

    ENFjs are good at having the patience to reach goals that any other type wouldn't even dare dream about. I set my goals and I do talk about them (very hard to achieve, but not baseless, not for ENFjs at least), but I get stuff done. And I read about what you said about how none of your family even apprechiates your mother and I wish she has the guts to get divorced for good and to never come back! I wish she'll distance herself from people who treat her hopes and dreams pointless because she doesn't wash dishes. You're being very mean to her and you don't even realize it.
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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    I don't know if all ENFj are like that, but my mom is pretty incompetent for a lot of things. She's having a really hard time finishing her career, even if it's the most simple one out there (management). Here if a person can't do fine in any other "serious" careers such as law, medicine, engineering and such studies management... or tourism... or whatever.

    My dad is more than 60 years old and learned to use the computer very well after a few months. My mom has been trying for years and still struggles.

    If ENFj are good at something besides convincing people of their (often baseless) goals I would like to know it.
    So you're basically saying that your mother has no Te so she's good for nothing?

    ENFjs are good at having the patience to reach goals that any other type wouldn't even dare dream about. I set my goals and I do talk about them (very hard to achieve, but not baseless, not for ENFjs at least), but I get stuff done. And I read about what you said about how none of your family even apprechiates your mother and I wish she has the guts to get divorced for good and to never come back! I wish she'll distance herself from people who treat her hopes and dreams pointless because she doesn't wash dishes. You're being very mean to her and you don't even realize it.
    Grr. I totally agree with Kriistina ... mikemex, your post pissed me off, frankly ... especially since it's about your own mother. Calling her imcompetent when it does seem like you're just putting value on the things she's not good at and disregarding all her good qualities that she may have. EIEs do have big dreams and we do pursue them, because we believe that they can happen. It might seem "baseless" to you, but for us, it's not at all ... anything can be achieved if the mind is put to the end result ... those that don't believe in their dreams coming true will never have anything accomplished. I hate it when people bring down others who supposedly have "unrealistic" goals - shut up .. honestly. I mean sure, there are the totally absurd plans but in my case, and usually a lot of EIE's cases, we actually HAVE thought through how to achieve these goals. It's merely putting FAITH in them that makes us seem visionary and almost naive (in your eyes). If there weren't the people who dreamed big ... what would this world have become? There is a fabulous quote on how dreaming is dead these days and noone does it anymore ... I'll find it later.

    Anyhow, I'd better stop before an emotional tirade comes on.


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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder
    +10 ENFjs.

    Like you said -- someone has to dream big. Without Betas there would be stagnation.
    I liked your posts in the Te & Ti thread. I am glad an Fi/Te valuing person is there to stand up for truth and not take the moral high ground... freaking biases towards Te/Fi here are just incredible... I'm sickened. But I'm glad you realize (like any other sane person would) that lying is not connected with quadra values ...


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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    I don't know if all ENFj are like that, but my mom is pretty incompetent for a lot of things. She's having a really hard time finishing her career, even if it's the most simple one out there (management). Here if a person can't do fine in any other "serious" careers such as law, medicine, engineering and such studies management... or tourism... or whatever.

    My dad is more than 60 years old and learned to use the computer very well after a few months. My mom has been trying for years and still struggles.

    If ENFj are good at something besides convincing people of their (often baseless) goals I would like to know it.
    it seems like the intj father in this family is doing a poor job of supervising his enfp daughter and his wife has taken a beating, which they always do by arrogant deltas. no one wants to perform unless they feel supported unless they're just arrogant and narcissitic like you are. whoever made the point about why the hell are you still living at home and your mother has to wipe your ass for you is right. you need to move the fuck out instead of criticizing your mother. you have an electra complex gone nuts. and if your mother does get divorced i hope shell get a good divorce settlement, lock you out of her life, and persue her goals with great self satisfaction. i think deltas are afraid of the level which betas can perform and they do everything they can to stop it, because they're so arrogant, calculating and thraetend.
    Lefty
    ENFJ

    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    I don't know if all ENFj are like that, but my mom is pretty incompetent for a lot of things. She's having a really hard time finishing her career, even if it's the most simple one out there (management). Here if a person can't do fine in any other "serious" careers such as law, medicine, engineering and such studies management... or tourism... or whatever.

    My dad is more than 60 years old and learned to use the computer very well after a few months. My mom has been trying for years and still struggles.

    If ENFj are good at something besides convincing people of their (often baseless) goals I would like to know it.
    it seems like the intj father in this family is doing a poor job of supervising his enfp daughter and his wife has taken a beating, which they always do by arrogant deltas. no one wants to perform unless they feel supported unless they're just arrogant and narcissitic like you are. whoever made the point about why the hell are you still living at home and your mother has to wipe your ass for you is right. you need to move the fuck out instead of criticizing your mother. you have an electra complex gone nuts. and if your mother does get divorced i hope shell get a good divorce settlement, lock you out of her life, and persue her goals with great self satisfaction. i think deltas are afraid of the level which betas can perform and they do everything they can to stop it, because they're so arrogant, calculating and thraetend.
    Lefty
    ENFJ

    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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