Help 4 a poorly functioning ENFp?

[astralsilky]

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[Suomea]

When I read that post it seemed a lot more ENTp to me than ENFp..... I was thinking that from the beginning.

[FDG]

Sometimes people just see a black hole in their future in comparison to the brightness of the past. In those cases, there isn't much to do, and even being "successful" and "doing things well" isn't enough.

[astralsilky]

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[FDG]

Sometimes a relationship can motivate people to get out of a rut.

[jewels]

You must be a really nice friend to care enough to try to help him.

hmmm...I'm not sure why what you're doing isn't working, because I like the bite-sized task thing. BUT, maybe he does care, but is lacking the confidence to act? (even for small tasks). Or, if he's decided everything sucks, why would doing a small task matter, right?

Sometimes ENFPs need someone to point out the obvious. We forget our good points a lot. And sometimes based on insufficient evidence, we decide everything sucks.

These things might help:

-Put things in perspective, with a joke or anything that will ground him. Compliments (sincere ones).
-Ask questions and try to understand where he is at, without trying to change it. Just let him talk. Make sure you tell him you understand where he's at, and why he's there, and know with certainty he will pull himself out of it when he's ready. It's sooo frustrating, but no one can change him but himself.
-Believe in him, tell him the potential you see.
-Ask him to help you with something. Make him feel useful. Find something he can help with better than most others. Say there is no one who can help like he can.
-Take him somewhere fun with distractions.

It might be that he just has to hit rock bottom. Then he'll figure things out. Careers can be tough to figure out, so hopefully he'll find his place.

[UDP]

ENFps are supposedly great at motivating others, seeing the potential in them, etc, -- but what happens when the ENFp is the one with seriously low self-worth, is lazy and self-indulgent, and in need of motivation?!!

An ENFp I know has finally lost all confidence in himself, even hates himself now. It is so sad. His life has completely deteriorated to an extremely low level of functioning.

He needs to change his perspective. He has the opportunity to do things for people who are A LOT WORSE than he is.
He needs to get involved with living for other people instead of dwelling in his own "disappointment".

Find a cause or a charity or something he is concerned about. Stop focusing on yourself and think about what you can contribute. The more you focus on your own wants, the more disappointed you will be.

[UDP]

Basically what FDG said, relationship.

Absolutely not
He's going to go into that relationship depressed and dependent - that spells disaster.


Like I said, he needs to start worrying about what he can do for other people, instead of just dwelling on his own problems. Nobody really cares if you're "depressed" - get out there and do something that matters.

[UDP]

I consider myself to be very undisciplined, but he takes the cake. He is terribly negligent of his personal self-care, too - health, basic hygiene routines - wayyyy more so than your average Ne dominants.

First he has to accept that he's acting and living in a pathetic way, and then he has to realize that it is up to him and change it.

I suppose the real answer is he needs to do a lot of personal work before he does anything else, but doing things for other people, volunteering, peace corps, something, whatever - he needs a perspective shift.

[UDP]

When I am unhappy or feeling bad, realizing that I can do something nice for someone to make their life better - that gives me a boost.
Perhaps it is because I am a caregiver, but, I think everyone can do that from time to time.

[UDP]

He needs to spend a week with me.


Courage Bootcamp

[Ms. Kensington]

He needs to change his perspective. He has the opportunity to do things for people who are A LOT WORSE than he is.

even though all of your posts in this thread so far have resonated /would work with me and would probably work to some extent with most everyone (helping others to help yourself) i still see that its possible that realizing others are worse off physically may not make sense to an Ne type or any type. For example, some might choose to go without food rather than be placed in a solitary confinement. I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes it's important to know what will motivate that person in particular.

[Park]

He needs to spend a week with me.


Courage Bootcamp

Hahaha...

I have nearly the same problems. Can I come too?

[astralsilky]

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[astralsilky]

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[UDP]

I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes it's important to know what will motivate that person in particular.

Of course.
I don't know the magic answer, but I'll provide my point of view to supplement what other people are saying.

[UDP]

He needs to spend a week with me.


Courage Bootcamp

Hahaha...

I have nearly the same problems. Can I come too?

Sure

Though I probably need some INFjs to balance me out properly.

Good Cop / Bad Cop

[astralsilky]

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[astralsilky]

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[UDP]

I'm glad you mentioned this because I *have* been thinking lately how he and I could both volunteer someplace. Although, I will admit, for some reason he doesn't respond to the "things could be worse! look at these less fortunate people over HERE" kinds of logic. Though I've mentioned it often as a reality check, he still resists it and says he doesn't buy that kind of thinking (even gets kind of angry)

Forget that, he's just indulging in his pain. When people do that, you have to address them as being a pansy, however you want to word it so it is nice. That is just being a baby, and he probably has too many "caring" people like yourself trying to boost him, and secretly he enjoys that.

He must be getting off on this whole "I suck sooo much" somehow, otherwise he wouldn't be prolonging it. Seriously - there is a utility to everything that is done. Whether it is rational or not, that is another factor. So if he gets "angry" at it, then I say he really needs a shaking up, because he doesn't like it when you legitimately give him a reason to feel better.

Hm. I don't like that he gets angry at you for bringing that up. He is being a total coward then, and rolling around in his self pity.


He won't like that week with me, but he sure needs it.

[UDP]

Actually, he doesn't brood much ... more apt to just sleep/escape rather than think of himself. He has little time to focus on himself it seems.

Whatever - something sounds off here. He has plenty of time to focus on himself if he is so depressed.

His mental track seems to be offset. Do you think he needs some time for some real introspection, if he is sociable? He needs to do something differently, whatever he's doing now isn't working.


That's some good Te there, give him that.

[Lobo]

I think that extraverted types, ENFp's and ESFp's in particular with a polr, are very hesitant to think about their problems and having alone time to do so. They prefer to distract themselves with something else, or avoid it altogether, and end up having strange "solutions" to their problems which are more psychological than anything else. Learning how to love and think with yourself can help you a lot, and it's not as bad as it may sound. Well, since I have the opposite problem, don't know how I could provide a useful suggestion other than that.

Also, t's not a good thing to say to some people that they're better off than others when they tend to be self-less-exagerated though. Reminds me of a time when an ESTj told me that and it made matters even worse, considering that my situation was caused by assuming too much of the world on my shoulders. Those were some bad times, but they make you stronger, and that's the rule. Good luck.

[anndelise]

For starters, don't play the Caregiver Role!
Not if you want him to stand on his own feet and not be upset with you when you suddenly withdraw the Caregiving.
Don't start conversations with what's got him down, and don't let him drone on about his problems. Instead ask him questions such as:
So if X happens, what will you do?
Do you think Y is an option?
How do you think Z could have been prevented?
I've got a friend who's got a [insert similar problem that your friend hasn't brought up yet in this particular conversation, but change some of the details], this is what happened, this is what she did about it, but this problem occurred, I don't know what to tell her. (and leave it open for your friend to start offering problem solving possibilities)

The biggest thing is to get your friend to begin finding possible solutions to even minor problems (of other people's, not his own, yet). Eventually your friend will begin transfering that fun by focusing on some of his own issues.

Oh, and don't be telling him what he NEEDS to do, etc. That'll just hit his rebel button.
Don't offer advice, because most likely you're not being given the whole story, and any advice you give won't be able to address the issues that aren't being told. (which is something many people do and then get upset when the other person doesn't accept/follow the advice given.....usually not realizing that the advice didn't address various aspects of the situation that they weren't aware of but the refuser is aware of...or soon becomes aware of)

So in final:
1) DON"T play a caregiver role!!! He either needs to find a real caregiver or supply it himself until he does.
2) During conversations with you, DON"T let him dwell on the problems! Ask questions that force him to consider possible solutions to single simplified problems.
3) DON"T tell him he what he NEEDS to do, nor what he SHOULD do. Stay away from that concept altogether.
4) DON"T give him advice. You can, however, tell stories of how other people solved a similar single simplified problem.
5) ENCOURAGE brainstorming of possible solutions to other people's problems. Rebuilding his confidence in this skill of his will help him transfer the skill to himself.


(and remember, he'll be seeking Te...which is the infp's polr, and an infp will likely be providing Ti...because it's what they would usually like in similar circumstances.....but it's the enfp's polr...so be very careful and change the topic of the conversation...or remove yourself...if you find yourself giving Ti and he's demanding Te...this will help save your friendship)

[UDP]

Yeah, always know your own personal strengths and limitations. When you deal with others and making them better, you have to know what you can and cannot do.

Like, me.... someone who needs to expend a lot of emotional empathy and warm sympathy? I know that is not my strong suite. Pass that along to the NFs and SFs. You need someone to be a hardass and not give you much sympathy, yet still want you to improve and give you some energy to do so? Then talk to me. And so on.

Know when to delegate.

[FDG]

Nobody really cares if you're "depressed" - get out there and do something that matters.

Lol. You insensitive idiot that can't understand such situations. Go experience them and then come back talking like this, let's see what happens, moronic twat.

He has plenty of time to focus on himself if he is so depressed.

Bullshit. It's a self sustaining cycle, you can't do things if you're depressed, and also if you're depressed you remain it even when you do many things.

I think the person in question is likely a type 7 on the Enneagram. It happens from time to time that our continuous attempts at positive rationalization, led to an extreme, fail. When they fail, even once, it's very hard to get back on track because in that moment the world looks like an extremely dark place that can only become worse.

Like, me.... someone who needs to expend a lot of emotional empathy and warm sympathy? I know that is not my strong suite. Pass that along to the NFs and SFs. You need someone to be a hardass and not give you much sympathy, yet still want you to improve and give you some energy to do so? Then talk to me. And so on.

Lol. Never seen any real improving solution from you, only a lot of shit about stuff you mostly don't know.

[UDP]

*wondering if I can edit my post without losing its directness*

[UDP]

(to edit: nope)
(To delta Si>Se sensitive people - sorry folks, I had to use some mean language in this post. It is nothing against FDG or me being mean, I'm just trying to speak straight up from my point of view, hopefully in a way that will be understood. Though I am sure it drifts somewhat out of standard delta language - keep in mind I am respond to someone who certainly is not from delta)


edit 2: I don't have the time right now to edit it properly to my liking, so here is a raw version of things.
[spoil:7449c26426]


What, did my comments set you the wrong way FDG?

God forbid anyone say anything differently from you.

Lol. You insensitive idiot that can't understand such situations. Go experience them and then come back talking like this, let's see what happens, moronic twat.

Insensitive idiot? Look, if you want to talk about sensitivity, don't come to me with insults. *

only a lot of shit about stuff you mostly don't know.

Yeah, because the only person who knows anything about anything is you, right FDG?

You're right in that I don't know anything about "E7"s. But we don't know for sure what his Etype is anyways.
But if you're upset because I busted down your idea of how "a nice relationship" would heal all wounds, well, go fuck yourself - does that speak in a way you can understand? Just because I have a different stance on things that means I'm some twat? Get over yourself already.


I will repeat again why I am against relationships as ways to get over tragedies:
first and foremost, what if they don't last? What if the relationship causes you pain? It could just as easily become a crutch.
To get over anything you have to do the work yourself and grow yourself.

You call me insensitive? Well you sound plain like a woman - how about that?
Relationship my ass. In the end it is up to you and only you to take accountability for your state of being.
Maybe some people like to have someone come hold their hand, tell them everything is okay, give them a nice big kiss on the forehead, and that magically makes everything better. But not me. Or what, you think because you can get someone to bed and have them say "I love you!!" that this will make everything alright? You're still running away from your own problem.

Deal with yourself, act your age, have some personal dignity, and move on in your life. Sure ENFps are supposed to "suck at life" as some description said, but, look - how would an SLI go about this? If in fact it is an ENFp, they need someone to straight talk them out of their over-exaggerated bullshit traumatic period that is not really as big of a deal as they make it seem.


If this guy gets angry at other people bringing up the suffering of other people, then he's being a pussy. So many people all over the world would go through hell just to have the shot he has at life, and what, he's going to wallow away like this? Come on.



PS:

I think the person in question is likely a type 7 on the Enneagram. It happens from time to time that our continuous attempts at positive rationalization, led to an extreme, fail. When they fail, even once, it's very hard to get back on track because in that moment the world looks like an extremely dark place that can only become worse.

Positive rationalization? What are you talking about there? (It almost sounds like running away from reality)

Look, if you feel like the world is an extremely dark place, then deal with it. The world is not dark, or light, it is what it is. Or if that doesn't work, maybe go home to your mother and ask her for your baby crib back. The world is a harsh place sometimes, yeah - that's just how it is.

* And fuck off if you think I've never been depressed or down - why randomly accept this ENFp's tragedy but so easily write mine off when you know neither of us?

I'm not going to just tell you what you want to hear to make you feel better, and your little pouting response only furthers my position that people need to deal with these things on your own. Family and friends can help, but you got to take responsibility yourself for your situation. Looking outside of yourself for solutions to your own personal problems is chasing nothings - it is all in vain.



PPS: Accountability seems to be something that bothers you FDG, but maybe you should open your eyes to it for a change. Whenever I mention it you always have to jump out by calling me some sort of a name. Does it hurt that much when I bring it up?[/spoil:7449c26426]

[UDP]

(note: it bothers me that I cannot find a way to write that in a less "offensive" way. I am conflicted because that is my reaction to the situation, and the language seems necessary. But I do feel as though that could be written better.)

[Park]

He needs to do something differently, whatever he's doing now isn't working.

I think he needs to have sex with jessica. Yeah... that's what he needs. :wink:

[jessica129]

Uhh..

[Blaze]

medication.

then try everything else.

whoever said counseling is only Te and Ti is kind of wrong....it's very Fi actually, with a little Te and Ti technique thrown in. but counseling is mostly Fi.

[Blaze]

medication.

then try everything else.

whoever said counseling is only Te and Ti is kind of wrong....it's very Fi actually, with a little Te and Ti technique thrown in. but counseling is mostly Fi.

I don't know.. maybe it's because I left that part out on purpose... :wink:

hahaha who would blame ya?

but yeah, counseling should have more Fe.

[jessica129]

medication.

then try everything else.

I'm curious as to how many people have actually been helped with medication. Seems it does more harm than good. The people who do claim to be cured by meds are probobly experiencing nothing more than placebo. Meds have only made me worse. I'd try everything in my power to resort to anything other than that, in my opinion. If they've 'helped' you, well then congrats but being dependant on something for years just so i can be happy, no.

[force my hand]

Instead ask him questions such as:
So if X happens, what will you do?
Do you think Y is an option?
How do you think Z could have been prevented?
I've got a friend who's got a [insert similar problem that your friend hasn't brought up yet in this particular conversation, but change some of the details], this is what happened, this is what she did about it, but this problem occurred, I don't know what to tell her. (and leave it open for your friend to start offering problem solving possibilities)

I think this is really good advice.

Few people like being beat over the head with something, but to be coaxed/seeded by another and at the same time be able to pretend we worked it through ourselves is a really effective method.

[Blaze]

medication.

then try everything else.

I'm curious as to how many people have actually been helped with medication. Seems it does more harm than good. The people who do claim to be cured by meds are probobly experiencing nothing more than placebo. Meds have only made me worse. I'd try everything in my power to resort to anything other than that, in my opinion. If they've 'helped' you, well then congrats but being dependant on something for years just so i can be happy, no.

i'm actually with you on this one jess. antidepressants and other psych meds with all their side effects can be a drag. i suggested it for this person because the guy simply sounds incapacitated...maybe meds would lift the depression enough to start doing and thinking the things one needs to in order to pull oneself out of depression.

but yeah, don't take meds if you don't have to. i used them to get through my divorce, but went off last May and i feel soooo much more alive without them. but they really helped a lot when i needd them to. so i think they can help others at strategic points in times as well.

[leckysupport]

I generally would personally try and get him to do something with purpose, goals, ambitions etc.. It doesn't have to be noble, just something.

Help getting him a job, cv & cover letter writing etc.
When he gets a job get him to work a lot and then contrast this with 'spoils of war' celebrations (but only if there are spoils).
Don't treat him like a 'special case', basically what courage said.

But I'm guessing this is all sli based so, IDK.

[UDP]

medication.

then try everything else.

I'm curious as to how many people have actually been helped with medication. Seems it does more harm than good. The people who do claim to be cured by meds are probobly experiencing nothing more than placebo. Meds have only made me worse. I'd try everything in my power to resort to anything other than that, in my opinion. If they've 'helped' you, well then congrats but being dependant on something for years just so i can be happy, no.

Medication?

This is something he did to himself - if he doesn't learn how to control his mind and his emotions, then he's liable to repeat this in a few years...

Don't treat him like a 'special case', basically what courage said.

Good way to put it. Don't feed him anything to make him seem "special" or in need of more pity than everyone else. Yes, individuality is important. But so too is proper perspective.


The old saying comes to mind:

Give a man a fish, he eats for one day
Teach him how to fish, he can eat his whole life.


Don't give this guy any more fishes, especially pity fishes. He needs to educate himself about how to get over this and prevent this from happening again, and the best other people can do is support him. It is up to him to walk through that door.

[munenori2]

medication.

then try everything else.

I'm curious as to how many people have actually been helped with medication. Seems it does more harm than good. The people who do claim to be cured by meds are probobly experiencing nothing more than placebo. Meds have only made me worse. I'd try everything in my power to resort to anything other than that, in my opinion. If they've 'helped' you, well then congrats but being dependant on something for years just so i can be happy, no.

I agree. Medication might mask the symptoms but they don't treat the cause. Just seems like more of an obfuscation than a solution.

[munenori2]

ENFps are supposedly great at motivating others, seeing the potential in them, etc, -- but what happens when the ENFp is the one with seriously low self-worth, is lazy and self-indulgent, and in need of motivation?!!

An ENFp I know has finally lost all confidence in himself, even hates himself now. It is so sad. His life has completely deteriorated to an extremely low level of functioning.

I've been trying to encourage him to take on some new things, bite-size, that he would be good at, enjoy and feel good about himself for accomplishing ... to build some sense of competence and recognize his inner self-worth ... he says often that he really WANTS help - e.g., to know how to get and hold a job (and what kind of (basic!!!) job), but he is also resistant. He has an excuse for everything. I consider myself to be very undisciplined, but he takes the cake. He is terribly negligent of his personal self-care, too - health, basic hygiene routines - wayyyy more so than your average Ne dominants.

... EDIT ...

Thanks in advance for any insights you may have.

What is it that he doesn't like about himself? Does he not feel like he's the kind of person he should be or wants to be? What is important to him? Are they material things he wants but is frustated in getting, something intangible of value that he can't identify or find, a combination of the two? I think these questions need answering, but neither would I suggest broaching them directly. If it were me (please bear my one-sidedness in mind), I would try to provide a subtle touch. The very valid point has been raised that you can't force someone to change. About all you can do is stick by him and don't fret about what to say. It's not so much what you or I have to say that matters here. A calm, quiet, and attentive presence could be helpful, if only to provide a nudge here or there when he finally airs his thoughts. Of course, this is presupposing that his unhappiness with the situation will propel him to try to seek out its roots (without settling for surface level rationalizations).

However, I don't know your friend and people are so complicated that my advice probably misses the mark of what he is truly going through. It just sounds a lot like I used to feel. I was lost and when it came to answering that most basic of questions (who am I?) I was drawing a blank. It seemed like everyone had an idea of who I should be, but their ideas left me empty and cold. Worse, not only did it feel like I didn't 'fit' the mold I was supposed to, but I appeared to be in complete contradiction with that image of what a man was. That struggle for identity was the darkest point of my life, but it also represented my greatest growth as an individual. It lasted for a long time (and in truth it had been with me always, festering until I couldn't hold it or hide from it any longer). If your friend is indeed wrestling with the issue of his identity, don't hold out for quick or easy fixes. Just be at his side to listen and let him know that, even if he can't pin down what is important to him, he is important to someone else. But I'm being very presumptuous and a lot of this probably won't apply. I wish him the best (and you as well for showing such concern). You are a very good friend.

[astralsilky]

Thanks a bunch, y'all.

I've been doing what I can, but come to the point where there's not much else that can be done apart from his own initiative. {...} Thanks again, folks.

::closes the case::