dual seeking hit

[aestrivex]

on tanehem's site, expat made an interesting sort of observation that whereas super-ego and polr hits can be painful and conflict-starting, they aren't truly psychologically devastating; they merely reflect areas that we are unconcerned with and that are perceived as a waste of time/unimportant/etc.


by constrast, the dual-seeking function reflects an area that we truly value and can't deal with. the idea is that hits to your dual-seeking function, by somebody confident in your super-id functions, are much more difficult to deal with.

expat gave the example of an EII buying a house, asking an SLI to do housework, and being informed that "you paid too much for this house, you'll never be able to get it working by yourself, and you should just try to sell it and get rid of it already since you have no idea how to keep it from falling apart and can't make rational economic decisions."

this example is rather obviously geared towards Si and Te problems. the idea is that these problems represent such fundamental uncertainty and difficulty towards an EII that they can't handle this type of criticism at all.


i created this thread primarily to ask about what you people think about the ILI one that i created, which i can't post right now because i literally have about three seconds to finish this, but it has to do i think with SeFi problems. i'll post this later.

[Kristiina]

quite the teaser for a thread that hasn't been opened yet.

But yes, I can see how this would make sense. All in all, the worst insults I remember have been about Fe-Ti. Some people misinterpret the Fe I portray and give me a Ti evaluation which shatters my understanding of the topic. But I have heard it all - from being obnoxious and crude to being shy and weakly. I can't remember any real insult about my PoLR, even if I hate the general feeling I get from people with Si.

[aestrivex]

sorry about earlier.


here's the post from tanehem's site in which i disclose my underlying physical insecurities:

as utterly mundane as it sounds (to me at least), the thing that might really get under my skin might be derogatory comments of a more physical or sometimes sexual nature, in terms of something like "you'll never get laid/have any kind of real relationship/have any real friends if you don't act in a more conventional manner," ie by cutting my hair, bathing more regularly (which i've over the last year or so started to do), dressing "well", and generally following these sorts of societal norms.

often i'll be consciously aware and sort of paranoid about these things but will be unsure about what to do about this kind of crap, or otherwize paralyzed out of torpor and time constraints. these are sorts of things i hate to have to think about.


does this make sense as SeFi dual-seeking? this is something that, when i wasn't sure of my type, that i thought about as possibly Se polr, and i've never really come up with any explanations for it. i don't talk about this normally because i find it excruciating to have to deal with.

does this sound like it could be an example of an Se-deprived person? importantly, does it resonate at all with other Ni types?

[aestrivex]

i don't think it would affect my judgment of the person who was saying the comment. i just really feel uncomfortable having to actually deal with the physical aspect of it.


if you want me to tell you whether i would be "attracted" (in socionics terms) to the person who made the comment you would have to be a tad more specific. how exactly did this person who criticized the state of your shoe act and why did you dislike it?

if somebody came up to me and told me that there were a smudge on my shoe, i'd probably ignore him/her and not really care about the comment. the thing with this is that i would probably not be concerned or self-conscious about a smudge on my shoe (i probably wouldn't notice such a smudge and there's probably nothing i could have done about it), whereas i might be somewhat inwardly paranoid that somebody might not "like" me because of the way i dress, for example. at the same time, there's a part of me that doesn't give a shit about what people think of my clothing. it's possible that this applies more to situations where i actually need to "make a good impression" and where some element of formality is required, but also so that people can tolerate being in the same room with me.

[UDP]

i don't think it would affect my judgment of the person who was saying the comment. i just really feel uncomfortable having to actually deal with the physical aspect of it.

Yeah, I would feel uncomfortable about having to deal with the "relational - emotional" aspect of things.
If I am understanding you, it has to do with what you expect and want other people to help you with, and sort of realizing or being told you have to "deal with this yourself", sort of, though clearly you are greatly uncomfortable with that area.

[snegledmaca]

as utterly mundane as it sounds (to me at least), the thing that might really get under my skin might be derogatory comments of a more physical or sometimes sexual nature, in terms of something like "you'll never get laid/have any kind of real relationship/have any real friends if you don't act in a more conventional manner," ie by cutting my hair, bathing more regularly (which i've over the last year or so started to do), dressing "well", and generally following these sorts of societal norms.

often i'll be consciously aware and sort of paranoid about these things but will be unsure about what to do about this kind of crap, or otherwize paralyzed out of torpor and time constraints. these are sorts of things i hate to have to think about.


does this make sense as SeFi dual-seeking? this is something that, when i wasn't sure of my type, that i thought about as possibly Se polr, and i've never really come up with any explanations for it. i don't talk about this normally because i find it excruciating to have to deal with.

does this sound like it could be an example of an Se-deprived person? importantly, does it resonate at all with other Ni types?

Not me.

I think that rather then a dual hit the if you say something enough times it will become true things applies. A healthy self-confidence will brush of any "hits", dual or otherwise. Only if it is weak can you cause psychological devastation with your "hits".

[misutii]

sorry about earlier.


here's the post from tanehem's site in which i disclose my underlying physical insecurities:

as utterly mundane as it sounds (to me at least), the thing that might really get under my skin might be derogatory comments of a more physical or sometimes sexual nature, in terms of something like "you'll never get laid/have any kind of real relationship/have any real friends if you don't act in a more conventional manner," ie by cutting my hair, bathing more regularly (which i've over the last year or so started to do), dressing "well", and generally following these sorts of societal norms.

often i'll be consciously aware and sort of paranoid about these things but will be unsure about what to do about this kind of crap, or otherwize paralyzed out of torpor and time constraints. these are sorts of things i hate to have to think about.


does this make sense as SeFi dual-seeking? this is something that, when i wasn't sure of my type, that i thought about as possibly Se polr, and i've never really come up with any explanations for it. i don't talk about this normally because i find it excruciating to have to deal with.

does this sound like it could be an example of an Se-deprived person? importantly, does it resonate at all with other Ni types?

yeah I've had other people give me shit like that before, I tend to resent it when somebody else tells me I need to "conform", I also get a bit indignant and start a sarcastic tirade, indirectly insulting them until they go crazy. But I think my reaction is a subconscious way of testing their information because if they're able to keep their calm, under criticism, than I'm more likely to acknowledge, begrudgingly, that they might be right.

[aestrivex]

i don't think it would affect my judgment of the person who was saying the comment. i just really feel uncomfortable having to actually deal with the physical aspect of it.

Yeah, I would feel uncomfortable about having to deal with the "relational - emotional" aspect of things.
If I am understanding you, it has to do with what you expect and want other people to help you with, and sort of realizing or being told you have to "deal with this yourself", sort of, though clearly you are greatly uncomfortable with that area.

thats the general idea, although my explanations of why it represents a problem are completely inadequate.

[Minde]

on tanehem's site, expat made an interesting sort of observation that whereas super-ego and polr hits can be painful and conflict-starting, they aren't truly psychologically devastating; they merely reflect areas that we are unconcerned with and that are perceived as a waste of time/unimportant/etc.


by constrast, the dual-seeking function reflects an area that we truly value and can't deal with. the idea is that hits to your dual-seeking function, by somebody confident in your super-id functions, are much more difficult to deal with.

expat gave the example of an EII buying a house, asking an SLI to do housework, and being informed that "you paid too much for this house, you'll never be able to get it working by yourself, and you should just try to sell it and get rid of it already since you have no idea how to keep it from falling apart and can't make rational economic decisions."

this example is rather obviously geared towards Si and Te problems. the idea is that these problems represent such fundamental uncertainty and difficulty towards an EII that they can't handle this type of criticism at all.


i created this thread primarily to ask about what you people think about the ILI one that i created, which i can't post right now because i literally have about three seconds to finish this, but it has to do i think with SeFi problems. i'll post this later.

Comments like that would make me defensive and want to cry at the same time. It's the despairing "Why are you asking me this? I can't/couldn't do any better!" I'd really want to, but be very unsure how to go about it. Or it would be something I know very well that I need, but since I know I'm bad at it sort of half expect that other people should be able to do it for me. Or at least be able to show me what to do, give me some sort of guidance.

Whereas with PoLR hits it's more like, "Ugh, why are you asking this of me. I shouldn't have to do this." Wanting people to stop because not only am I bad at it but it seems unnecessary. So I just sort of uncomfortably shrug it off if at all possible. Or try to find other ways of compensating.

Is that sort of what you were getting at?

[Slacker]

I have absolutely no idea what an "Si hit" would even feel like. I can't imagine any reaction other than, "What are you talking about? That's your job!"

[discojoe]

Niffweed, how would you react if an ESFp pushed you into regiment of personal hygiene?

[aestrivex]

Niffweed, how would you react if an ESFp pushed you into regiment of personal hygiene?

i don't know. it's never happened.

[aestrivex]

on tanehem's site, expat made an interesting sort of observation that whereas super-ego and polr hits can be painful and conflict-starting, they aren't truly psychologically devastating; they merely reflect areas that we are unconcerned with and that are perceived as a waste of time/unimportant/etc.


by constrast, the dual-seeking function reflects an area that we truly value and can't deal with. the idea is that hits to your dual-seeking function, by somebody confident in your super-id functions, are much more difficult to deal with.

expat gave the example of an EII buying a house, asking an SLI to do housework, and being informed that "you paid too much for this house, you'll never be able to get it working by yourself, and you should just try to sell it and get rid of it already since you have no idea how to keep it from falling apart and can't make rational economic decisions."

this example is rather obviously geared towards Si and Te problems. the idea is that these problems represent such fundamental uncertainty and difficulty towards an EII that they can't handle this type of criticism at all.


i created this thread primarily to ask about what you people think about the ILI one that i created, which i can't post right now because i literally have about three seconds to finish this, but it has to do i think with SeFi problems. i'll post this later.

Comments like that would make me defensive and want to cry at the same time. It's the despairing "Why are you asking me this? I can't/couldn't do any better!" I'd really want to, but be very unsure how to go about it. Or it would be something I know very well that I need, but since I know I'm bad at it sort of half expect that other people should be able to do it for me. Or at least be able to show me what to do, give me some sort of guidance.

Whereas with PoLR hits it's more like, "Ugh, why are you asking this of me. I shouldn't have to do this." Wanting people to stop because not only am I bad at it but it seems unnecessary. So I just sort of uncomfortably shrug it off if at all possible. Or try to find other ways of compensating.

Is that sort of what you were getting at?

yeah; that's pretty much it.

[Joy]

If someone criticized my Fi, I'd seek out answers as to whether or not I've done something wrong from an outside source, a friend or my sister or Peter or someone like that. It seems that I only trust the answers of a Fi type. With other types I wonder if they could be wrong. If I have indeed done something wrong, they help me figure out how to resolve the matter. Fi + Se makes me feel better more quickly than Fi + Ne.

[aestrivex]

"you'll never get laid/have any kind of real relationship/have any real friends if you don't act in a more conventional manner," ie by cutting my hair, bathing more regularly (which i've over the last year or so started to do), dressing "well", and generally following these sorts of societal norms."

sound like he/she is saying you'll never get any Fi unless you adhere to some Fi as well as Si standards. as far as i know Fi hits are more bad than to the 5th, though of course depends from whom. 'cos duals act in such a way that it's never overboard and it's like a signal from the subsystem of the system where subsystems are in perfect balance. Si should be more painful as it's the third - a function of social acceptance.

explain to me how in the fuck this is Si.

[reyn_til_runa]

sounds to me like you are seeking Se to get out of the rut. perhaps your being in a rut (and needing Se) gets disguised by your typical physical presence/manner, which probably sends the message that your appearance is a conscious choice over which you feel comfortably in control. in other words, you are not about to consciously reveal your insecurity to someone who may misinterpret it as not knowing what would attract others to you. you'd rather they think that you do not care whether or not you attract/repel others (which i realize, on some levels, you certainly do not).

i imagine this to follow the same principles as hoarding. hoarding is a symptom of perfectionism and indecision, among other things. some hoarders end up literally trapped in what seem to be worthless possessions: can't move them, can't throw them out (so, in some way value them) yet are bothered by, and often isolated by, their accumulated presence. the more they let the the mess build, the less likely they will let anyone help them get rid of it.

because you are aware of your limitations/insecurities in this area you mention, you end up sort of delaying indecision itself. you fear indecision. you would DO something, but you may get it wrong (in which case, you have wasted effort and potentially put yourself in a predicament which could have been avoided), so you go on appearing that the decision was simple for you, that it (or its avoidance=indecision) did not cause you any worry, helplessness, discomfort. in the process of trying not to "stand out" for that which you do not want to associate with, you become more attached to the association.

i really have no idea if any of this is correct, but it's a reasonably educated approximate guess.

[aka-kitsune]

i imagine this to follow the same principles as hoarding. hoarding is a symptom of perfectionism and indecision, among other things. some hoarders end up literally trapped in what seem to be worthless possessions: can't move them, can't throw them out (so, in some way value them) yet are bothered by, and often isolated by, their accumulated presence. the more they let the the mess build, the less likely they will let anyone help them get rid of it.

I feel that hoarding (for myself) is less about perfectionism, and more about a chronic sense of "lack" as a core belief. My particular flavor of hoarding is more about accumulating *meaningful* things. It sounds like what you're describing is when the behavior has become more a stereotyped "control" mechanism. In both cases, I'd say it's amassing in order to feel some sense of security.

[reyn_til_runa]

i imagine this to follow the same principles as hoarding. hoarding is a symptom of perfectionism and indecision, among other things. some hoarders end up literally trapped in what seem to be worthless possessions: can't move them, can't throw them out (so, in some way value them) yet are bothered by, and often isolated by, their accumulated presence. the more they let the the mess build, the less likely they will let anyone help them get rid of it.

I feel that hoarding (for myself) is less about perfectionism, and more about a chronic sense of "lack" as a core belief. My particular flavor of hoarding is more about accumulating *meaningful* things. It sounds like what you're describing is when the behavior has become more a stereotyped "control" mechanism. In both cases, I'd say it's amassing in order to feel some sense of security.

could be. i am the type to accumulate empty bottles, old papers, cigarette packs, etc. (on the "worthless" side of things), saving them for no obvious reason, but still reluctant/unmotivated to discard them. it is as if they are not there after awhile. all at once, i will feel disgusted, ashamed, or just sick of the mess and, in a fury, will clean everything and feel much better about my life.

i do save things that are somewhat meaningful, i guess, such as magazines, old notes to self, or scraps of material i may use for a project one day, but don't relate much to hoarding items purely for emotional attachment/meaning, at least not in the normal sense. what i experience seems more indicative of emotional anesthesia brought on by mounting physical insecurity/discomfort.

[Joy]

"you'll never get laid/have any kind of real relationship/have any real friends if you don't act in a more conventional manner," ie by cutting my hair, bathing more regularly (which i've over the last year or so started to do), dressing "well", and generally following these sorts of societal norms."

sound like he/she is saying you'll never get any Fi unless you adhere to some Fi as well as Si standards. as far as i know Fi hits are more bad than to the 5th, though of course depends from whom. 'cos duals act in such a way that it's never overboard and it's like a signal from the subsystem of the system where subsystems are in perfect balance. Si should be more painful as it's the third - a function of social acceptance.

explain to me how in the fuck this is Si.

Sounds Fe and/or Si to me, depending on the context.

[Expat]

I have absolutely no idea what an "Si hit" would even feel like. I can't imagine any reaction other than, "What are you talking about? That's your job!"

That's precisely the reaction of an IEE I (for the moment) work with. He sees himself as the "big idea guy" and expects me (and others) to take care of details. If I think that it's not going to work, or that information is missing, if I ask him, his reaction is pretty much as you put it - and he gets angry, to boot.

[marooned]

@Niffweed... Is it that you're behind on the things you need to keep up your appearance/hygiene?

Like laundry for instance... is it piling up?

Are you having difficulty obtaining what you need (or even thinking about what you need) to maintain these things... like you would need shampoo, laundry detergent, soap, blah, blah, blah?

Maybe you need someone to get you on track... and then could establish a routine...

I was thinking about my apartment... it became an utter mess, like so bad that I felt overwhelmed by the very idea of it... although I did enough laundry to have clean clothes most of the time, it was kind of piling up... it just got worse and worse...

I don't know why I felt so overwhelmed by the thought of it, or helpless about it... I felt it was kind of pathetic of me really... Finally I actually asked my Mom if she would come visit and help me clean because I didn't know what else to do... My Mom is a very active person and knows what needs to be done as far as cleaning goes... I let her sort of dictate the process and we cleaned it all up... Now that it is clean and we did like 10 loads of laundry, all I have to do is maintain it (and remember how bad it can get if I don't maintain it or put it off). Maybe you need someone to help you... Is there anyone who can?

As for your hair and dress... gah. I personally don't really care about that sort of thing... I mean... maybe I used to ... I just don't seem to care how I look at all... I rarely brush my hair (for lack of time)... I'm trying to think if it would bother me if someone criticized my appearance... I don't think I'd care. I do get very hurt if anyone criticizes my lack of physicality though... like dancing, for instance. I don't know how to dance, I don't understand dancing, I don't know how to express myself in a physical way, I don't learn dance moves easily at all, I don't get any of it and I don't know how to... When someone draws attention to something like that, it sort of hurts because it's like they're criticizing who I am--something about me that I don't know how to change.

[marooned]

I have absolutely no idea what an "Si hit" would even feel like. I can't imagine any reaction other than, "What are you talking about? That's your job!"

That's precisely the reaction of an IEE I (for the moment) work with. He sees himself as the "big idea guy" and expects me (and others) to take care of details. If I think that it's not going to work, or that information is missing, if I ask him, his reaction is pretty much as you put it - and he gets angry, to boot.

Hmm this almost reminds me of me. I don't expect anyone else to take care of details for me (because they're a tedious pain and I wouldn't subject anyone to that), but I hate the details of things... I am not a very detail-oriented person... I have enough awareness of them, to cover them... but god I hate details and tedium.

[Joy]

possibly Fi, assuming that by "societal norms" is meant being polite and following the social rituals, being socially transparent, etc.: and generally following these sorts of societal norms

what the FUCK are you talking about?

[aestrivex]

@Niffweed... Is it that you're behind on the things you need to keep up your appearance/hygiene?

Like laundry for instance... is it piling up?

Are you having difficulty obtaining what you need (or even thinking about what you need) to maintain these things... like you would need shampoo, laundry detergent, soap, blah, blah, blah?

Maybe you need someone to get you on track... and then could establish a routine...

I was thinking about my apartment... it became an utter mess, like so bad that I felt overwhelmed by the very idea of it... although I did enough laundry to have clean clothes most of the time, it was kind of piling up... it just got worse and worse...

I don't know why I felt so overwhelmed by the thought of it, or helpless about it... I felt it was kind of pathetic of me really... Finally I actually asked my Mom if she would come visit and help me clean because I didn't know what else to do... My Mom is a very active person and knows what needs to be done as far as cleaning goes... I let her sort of dictate the process and we cleaned it all up... Now that it is clean and we did like 10 loads of laundry, all I have to do is maintain it (and remember how bad it can get if I don't maintain it or put it off). Maybe you need someone to help you... Is there anyone who can?

that's a pretty good exposition of it all.

[XoX]

I have absolutely no idea what an "Si hit" would even feel like. I can't imagine any reaction other than, "What are you talking about? That's your job!"

That's precisely the reaction of an IEE I (for the moment) work with. He sees himself as the "big idea guy" and expects me (and others) to take care of details. If I think that it's not going to work, or that information is missing, if I ask him, his reaction is pretty much as you put it - and he gets angry, to boot.

Hah. That's so true. I have worked in a project that had IEE as a client/customer. The IEE was supposed to give us the requirements for what we should do but it seemed like an impossible task. It was practically impossible to nail down the concrete requirements even after very long, costly and painful effort. Things just got blurrier and blurrier the longer we tried. And thus we ended up doing a lot of guess work when mapping the conceptual big picture stuff to concrete real world stuff which of course often leads to solutions which are not exactly what the customer had in mind. After the failure to read the IEE mind comes the guilt play...

It was like
- I want that star from the sky!
- Umm..which one?
- The star that shines so bright and beautiful!
- Umm..could you name the star please? Sun?
- Sun? That's boring...I will call it...The Greatest Star Ever
- umm..be more specific please...
- Hey, it is your job to be specific! Now go and get it for me!
...
- Ok. Here is your star. We didn't know which star you meant so we brought you Sirius. It should be the brightest after Sun...
- Sirius?! Why would I want Sirius? I want the...what is it called...the morning star
- Umm..morning star? you mean Venus?! It is not even a real star. And why didn't you say so earlier...
- I thought you knew?! But Venus is brighter than Sirius is it?
- Umm..yes but...
- So why did you bring me Sirius?! You should have asked me about that. I'm getting angry now.
- Ok ok...we go get Venus now...
- Good. And dont disappoint me again!
...
- Ok here is Venus.
- Nice. But it is old news now. I have other things in mind. Let me tell you...

[snegledmaca]

I've never had anything even remotely like that happen with the IEE-s I know.

[XoX]

I've never had anything even remotely like that happen with the IEE-s I know.

Oh? What type do you see that happening with if any? The way I see it intuition is quite clear, ethical seems clear, seems negativist in need for positivist affirmation, bad with details and exactness of language and thought (Ti and or Si), creative big picture person with lot of ideas for the future, a bit careless with money (not a manager type but more a creative visionary type). Would you see that more as EIE than IEE? I might add, not very concerned with effectiveness, likes outdoor activities during freetime.

[snegledmaca]

No, I meant I've never had problems with misunderstanding IEE-s. In fact, normally I'm able to finish their thoughts. For me they are everything but undetermined and vague, I know exactly what they want and are talking about.

[XoX]

No, I meant I've never had problems with misunderstanding IEE-s. In fact, normally I'm able to finish their thoughts. For me they are everything but undetermined and vague, I know exactly what they want and are talking about.

Oh. Now I get it. I wouldn't say undetermined btw. Vague and not very effective in resource utilization but creative and quite determined. Their determination is just vague, heh. Meaning they act determined but I can't figure out what exactly they are determined about. And it seems to change a bit over time. This person was still a joy to be with when we didn't have to settle something explicit like contract details. Very charming person in the end. Except for the occasional guilt play. I had to be a bit on my toes because my natural self was perceived as a bit offending unless I make an effort to be more understanding for her vagueness and less "pushy" in a way. Took a lot of concentration and was a bit exhaustive sometimes.

I wonder what this says about my type. Different than yours perhaps? Not likely IxTp either.

[snegledmaca]

Vague and not very effective in resource utilization but creative and quite determined.

Really? I totally didn't notice that with any of my IEE friends (4 friends and one best friend). But then again perhaps I wasn't looking.

Their determination is just vague, heh. Meaning they act determined but I can't figure out what exactly they are determined about.

For me it's clear as day. They just have to open their mouth and start talking.

And it seems to change a bit over time. This person was still a joy to be with when we didn't have to settle something explicit like contract details. Very charming person in the end. Except for the occasional guilt play.

Never noticed the guilt play as well.

I had to be a bit on my toes because my natural self was perceived as a bit offending unless I make an effort to be more understanding for her vagueness and less "pushy" in a way. Took a lot of concentration and was a bit exhaustive sometimes.

Wow.... communication with IEE-s, for me, is relaxation. Another person that thinks just like me. In fact, I naturally tend to form friendships with IEE-s and them with me. The easiest friendships to start in fact.

I wonder what this says about my type. Different than yours perhaps? Not likely IxTp either.

Hearing your position, most likely. But there is also the possibility that being that my best friend is IEE I have learned how to understand him.

[XoX]

So your main point is that you like IEEs?

[snegledmaca]

So your main point is that you like IEEs?

No, completely understand and comprehend. Liking is irrelevant. For example I don't like some IEE-s, but I totally understand them.

[XoX]

So your main point is that you like IEEs?

No, completely understand and comprehend. Liking is irrelevant. For example I don't like some IEE-s, but I totally understand them.

And do the other INFps here relate to this? (a question for other INFps)

[leckysupport]

I usually don't act positively to 'he's a weirdo and he has no friends' (Fi attack I haven't had many if any Ne attacks). I think I get fustrated, hurt and annoyed, I sort of ask subconsiously 'So what should I do?' and if I don't get it I sort of give up and think that someone else should deal with it.

In a summer a job I had problems with my selling technique. Selling requires dressing up products with impulses, getting people to like you and exposing your personality (to appear more genuine) or enthusiasum.

I had difficulty with the last. When being trained I found it very very fustrating. I had the habit of dryly telling customers the facts and then giving them options. When I was supposed to be making the product sound great and make it seem like that product was what they only wanted (its easier to do this jumping around).

Whenever a SEE (I had the impression he was the smartest guy in the room dispite being surrounded by gamma NTs, probably had to do with the emphasis on SeFi in selling) confronted me about my problem and tried and teach me the art in his complex but effective way of doing things. I found it difficult to acustom myself to the SeFi (mostly Fi) way of thinking and I would always seem to revert back to Te and Si. It was incredibly fustrating and annoyingly stupid. There was a bit of an air of 'he's a weirdo and he has no friends' in the way the SEE talked and this added to the fustration.
I understood the concepts perfectly but carrying it out with a positive effect seemed almost impossible.

The fustration would build and build until I would just throw my hands in the air and clumsly say that everything was 'stupid', come up with meaningless lame excuses and I just wanted someone else to deal with it.

A ESI (if you remember I've talked about a guy in a possible type change, this is the guy) eventually dragged me aside and actually managed to solve the problem. I think he would be what Rick calls 'dualised', he seemed to know how to deal with people with little F and he seemed to realise my stupid display was more a cry for help.


Last year at uni I lived with a EII (who I found very annoying but this isn't the point), we where having difficulties dealing with the letting agency for the house (run by another SEE), who would fix none of the problems with the house and talk a lot to try and keep us happy.

The landlord (the guy who owned the house) lived next door but barely talked to us. We decided to involve the landlord in our battle with the letting agency. The EII decided that no one was dealing with anything so she should do it.

She would make false clames about what the landlord said to the letting agency and then she would make moves that should involve the landlord but didn't. So her plans and actions always failed for obvious reasons (just wasn't talking to the right people to get the right things done). When me and a LSE who was living at the house confronted (we must of had a air of 'she's a idiot that doesn't have a clue about what she's doing') her she had the exact same reaction I had when the SEE confronted me about my lack of enthusiasum.

She made some lame and clumsy remarks to defend herself and then after very little pressure would say 'You deal with it, OK'.

This is pretty much how I think it works for HA anyway.