Validity of TheSocioncom

[RSV3]

I have been reading type descriptions at Thesocion.com lately, and I've starting to lose confidence in what type I believe I am. I've also noticed that TheSocion.com seems to generate a lot of discussion on this forum, in terms of its accuracy. In particular, there appears to be ardent supporters on both sides. I just wanted to see what the general consensus was.

[aestrivex]

its complete trash. pay no attention to it at all.

[Hitta]

you are trash

[aestrivex]

if you didn't realize, FYI that vote for "its valid" is obviously cast by hitta.

[Hitta]

if you didn't realize, FYI that vote for "its valid" is obviously cast by hitta.

You can say what you want.... you're still not INTp

[aestrivex]

if you didn't realize, FYI that vote for "its valid" is obviously cast by hitta.

You can say what you want.... you're still not INTp

the idea that your BS is BS is far more evident than my type.

[Hitta]

Its not my fault that you lack the capacity to think. Thats not my problem. The truth is that the people on this forums would disagree with me no matter if I were right or not. Thats what this forum does. Its a combination of dull people like yourself that are not captivated by the concepts of originality. People like you strive to fit in, as do most of the people here. To be honest, I actually doubt that you even know what you are arguing. I think that you just place your moronic rage onto me in an attempt to keep things stable and together. You do not like change. Your ignorance is why we have wars, why people are murdered and killed, why we have stupidity in its entirety. Its because you are unable to see someone else's viewpoint. People like you should be disregarded because you are completely worthless. Just another zygote with the ability to be something that transcends humanity. A logically incompetent fucktard.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[RSV3]

I originally read that as "Vanity of the Socion" and thought hmm, yeah, that sounds about right.

[Elro]

Its not my fault that you lack the capacity to think. Thats not my problem. The truth is that the people on this forums would disagree with me no matter if I were right now not. Thats what this forum does. Its a combination of dull people like yourself that are not captivated by the concepts of originality. People like you strive to fit in, as do most of the people here. To be honest, I actually doubt that you even know what you are arguing. I think that you just place your moronic rage onto me in an attempt to keep things stable and together. You do not like change. Your ignorance is why we have wars, why people are murdered and killed, why we have stupidity in its entirety. Its because you are unable to see someone else's viewpoint. People like you should be disregarded because you are completely worthless. Just another zygote with the ability to be something that transcends humanity. A logically incompetent fucktard.

I think you might be right about the bolded part. I also think you're completely oblivious as to the real reason why. Perhaps if you read the rest of this paragraph closely, you might get an inkling.

[aestrivex]

Its not my fault that you lack the capacity to think. Thats not my problem. The truth is that the people on this forums would disagree with me no matter if I were right now not. Thats what this forum does. Its a combination of dull people like yourself that are not captivated by the concepts of originality. People like you strive to fit in, as do most of the people here. To be honest, I actually doubt that you even know what you are arguing. I think that you just place your moronic rage onto me in an attempt to keep things stable and together. You do not like change. Your ignorance is why we have wars, why people are murdered and killed, why we have stupidity in its entirety. Its because you are unable to see someone else's viewpoint. People like you should be disregarded because you are completely worthless. Just another zygote with the ability to be something that transcends humanity. A logically incompetent fucktard.

thank you. you made my day.

[Hitta]

I bet I did, especially with your totally unoriginal lifestyle.

[aestrivex]

im getting tired of you. i'm going to put you on ignore now. please don't bother responding.

[Elro]

Its not my fault that you lack the capacity to think. Thats not my problem. The truth is that the people on this forums would disagree with me no matter if I were right or not. Thats what this forum does. Its a combination of dull people like yourself that are not captivated by the concepts of originality. People like you strive to fit in, as do most of the people here. To be honest, I actually doubt that you even know what you are arguing. I think that you just place your moronic rage onto me in an attempt to keep things stable and together. You do not like change. Your ignorance is why we have wars, why people are murdered and killed, why we have stupidity in its entirety. Its because you are unable to see someone else's viewpoint. People like you should be disregarded because you are completely worthless. Just another zygote with the ability to be something that transcends humanity. A logically incompetent fucktard.

[Hitta]

@hitta -- I hope you saw my comments about your site's url structure?

What comments?

[Logos]

@hitta -- I hope you saw my comments about your site's url structure?

What comments?

Check Anything Goes.

[Hitta]

I keep separate copies of my website renamed in case I ever want to restructure my website, so its not a big deal for now. Thanks for the concern though.

[Expat]

Its not my fault that you lack the capacity to think. Thats not my problem. The truth is that the people on this forums would disagree with me no matter if I were right or not. Thats what this forum does. Its a combination of dull people like yourself that are not captivated by the concepts of originality. People like you strive to fit in, as do most of the people here. To be honest, I actually doubt that you even know what you are arguing. I think that you just place your moronic rage onto me in an attempt to keep things stable and together. You do not like change. Your ignorance is why we have wars, why people are murdered and killed, why we have stupidity in its entirety. Its because you are unable to see someone else's viewpoint. People like you should be disregarded because you are completely worthless. Just another zygote with the ability to be something that transcends humanity. A logically incompetent fucktard.

"If you disagree with me you are stupid" and "I am cleverer than anyone here", together with emotional analyses such as "people like you strive to fit in, as do most of the people here" -- now who else keeps saying things like that around here? Let me think, let me think --

[Hitta]

Its not my fault that you lack the capacity to think. Thats not my problem. The truth is that the people on this forums would disagree with me no matter if I were right or not. Thats what this forum does. Its a combination of dull people like yourself that are not captivated by the concepts of originality. People like you strive to fit in, as do most of the people here. To be honest, I actually doubt that you even know what you are arguing. I think that you just place your moronic rage onto me in an attempt to keep things stable and together. You do not like change. Your ignorance is why we have wars, why people are murdered and killed, why we have stupidity in its entirety. Its because you are unable to see someone else's viewpoint. People like you should be disregarded because you are completely worthless. Just another zygote with the ability to be something that transcends humanity. A logically incompetent fucktard.

"If you disagree with me you are stupid" and "I am cleverer than anyone here", together with emotional analyses such as "people like you strive to fit in, as do most of the people here" -- now who else keeps saying things like that around here? Let me think, let me think --

I don't think I'm smarter than anyone here, and I don't think if you disagree with me you are stupid. I just think the people don't understand where I'm coming from with my theory and people like niffweed cut it down without even understanding it. For that I find him to be uninspiring and reluctant to change. I've yet to have someone argue with me on a reasonable basis, a basis with a reason as to why my theory isn't right. Instead of just calling my theory trash to fit in and make yourself look good for the forum eye, why don't people actually have a reasonable philosophical debate with me. Maybe I can make the person understand why my theory is correct, or that person can make me understand why my theory is wrong. So far no one wants to do that though. Everyone here so far has bolt their doors and disallowed anyone from coming through them. Are the people here scared that I am going to be right or something? The commentary I have received so far as been a complete regression to understanding of human personality. The people here can believe what they want, but until someone actually gives me a reason as to why I am wrong, or gives some alternate theory that seems to stand up, I'm not gonna back down from what I believe.

[Expat]

Instead of just calling my theory trash to fit in and make yourself look good for the forum eye

Based on what do you assume that this is niffweed's - or anyone else's - motivation to say your theory is trash? Can you conceive of the possibility that this is not their motivation at all? Or you just "know" that that's their motivation, because that's "how everyone is"?

That you take for granted that this is his - or anyone's - motivation is very revealing.

[Hitta]

Instead of just calling my theory trash to fit in and make yourself look good for the forum eye

Based on what do you assume that this is niffweed's - or anyone else's - motivation to say your theory is trash? Can you conceive of the possibility that this is not their motivation at all? Or you just "know" that that's their motivation, because that's "how everyone is"?

That you take for granted that this is his - or anyone's - motivation is very revealing.

Why does anyone do anything? Do you really think that niffweed would post something without the intent of giving a particular impression on the rest of the forum? What would be the point?

[Kristiina]

Hitta, you claim to be INTp, right? You should reconsider your type. Expat's post here seems to have very accurate points. Your reaction to Niffweed is surprisingly emotional.

Yesterday I found out more about the whole +/- function thing and it's very interesting and fun for me. I would love it if your page turned out to be entirely valid, but I if you have mistyped yourself, then it's bound to have confusing information where types are mixed up. I can say that my INFp sister identified with the INFp description and I can't wait to read the ENFj description with +/- functions.

[Hitta]

I'm INTj.

[Expat]

Why does anyone do anything? Do you really think that niffweed would post something without the intent of giving a particular impression on the rest of the forum? What would be the point?

By "particular impression" do you mean necessarily something like "make yourself look good in the eyes of others", or make others look bad, etc, things of this sort?

[Hitta]

Why does anyone do anything? Do you really think that niffweed would post something without the intent of giving a particular impression on the rest of the forum? What would be the point?

By "particular impression" do you mean necessarily something like "make yourself look good in the eyes of others", or make others look bad, etc, things of this sort?

Make yourself appear a certain way to other people. Like he may want to give the impression that he is sarcastic to the people of the forum so that people will think highly of him(thats just one theory). Hell, he might even get some satisfaction if I think of him a certain way.

[Expat]

That's a very illuminating answer.

[Kristiina]

Why does anyone do anything? Do you really think that niffweed would post something without the intent of giving a particular impression on the rest of the forum? What would be the point?

By "particular impression" do you mean necessarily something like "make yourself look good in the eyes of others", or make others look bad, etc, things of this sort?

Make yourself appear a certain way to other people. Like he may want to give the impression that he is sarcastic to the people of the forum so that people will think highly of him(thats just one theory). Hell, he might even get some satisfaction if I think of him a certain way.

This certainly is easy to understand for / . I've never really noticed dominants saying things like that. Maybe they do say those things, but I just haven't noticed.

[Expat]

i think i've known some INTj's to speculate about that sort of thing.. but hitta seems more certain and assertive of it. which i think fits with my ISTj typing for him.

Among other things, I don't think he VIs as ISTj at all in his video.

[Kristiina]

mhhh... How about this for type trait - hitta posted the type descriptions here in the forum for feedback and active discussion. This is > . I don't think think functions would be easy to quantify, but there are traits come from some types easier than others. Also, from what I understand, he needed clear answers and clear feedback. The type INTj would be ok with reaching the conclusion - "but my descriptions work in theory and unfortunately all people of that type don't fit my description", whereas hitta wanted things to be a little bit more definite - "if the description doesn't apply, you must be some other type". I totally understand that and I keep telling people to give me good clear definite answers and I would like the world to be nice and neat and definite nad I also think this is the approach of the beta NF with all the uncertainties and impressions.

[Kristiina]

I'm not saying you're clearly any type. It would great to have a good INTj socionicist after a while, but I need to be sure that the type descriptions aren't blurred.

[Expat]

while i'm less inclined to apply them to Phaedrus, i do think aka and Loki's points about not "dumping" certain cases into an an ethicist IP typing are something to keep in mind here.

On the contrary, I think "points" such as these are to be disregarded, always. If they disagree with specific typings, they can say why; to say "oh you're just 'dumping people here' " is a non-argument.

[Kristiina]

Some other thoughts (sorry for third consequetive post, I don't normally do that, so consider yourself priviliged ).

- the idea that right/wrong is something that's created in the minds of people. This is the way that the NiFe and FeNi mind works. Every once in a while you may realize that nothing really exists. Everything around us is just the impression of what we have seen and our impression depends on how we were taught to believe as we grew up. So none of it is really real. That's why there's SeTi and TiSe - they see what's real and undoubdedly tell us what's objectively true and what's not.

- I don't think it's about your reaching the logical conclusion that everything could be right or wrong depending on everything and there is no right and wrong. It's about you not being able to give a clear opinion. dominants know exactly what should be done (in their subjective opinion of course). But you just realize that there are many possibilities because all options have different outcomes and it would just be so much easier if someone else just came and took that responsobility. Some type who just starts doing something and doesn't tell you to decide - because there are too many right answers and it's all in our heads anyway. :wink:

- you got typed ISTj a lot, even though you are not assertively Se-creative at all! I once realized that people have the most similar dichotomies with their activity partner. This is why it's possible to generalize someone's type as "some alpha extrovert" or "gamma introvert for sure!".

- "in my personal opinion is that everything is a stereotype, all things that we view are stereotypes - objects, ideas, concepts - they are all just concepts or ideas of other ideas. .." ".. Everything can be viewed from different relative points, there are infinite viewpoints..." Concradulations, hitta, you just wrote down one version of INFp ego block. No wonder it made no sense to Niffweed (who is INTp btw ), it's a combination of aristocratic and , although too extreme for me to agree. I do like to think that a pen is a pen and a tree is a tree.

[Kristiina]

I once realized that people have the most similar dichotomies with their activity partner.

which dichotomies? if you consider all 15 reinin dichotomies this isn't so. every type has 7 reinin dichotomies in common with every other type but itself. this is in the charts. it also follows from the orthogonal construction of the dichtomies themselves.

I don't think it's about your Ti reaching the logical conclusion that everything could be right or wrong depending on everything and there is no right and wrong. [...]But you just realize that there are many possibilities because all options have different outcomes and it would just be so much easier if someone else just came and took that responsobility.

do you have any evidence of that?

My evidence is the impression I got. Or don't you consider ENFj ego block as evidence? :wink:

And I did mean the Reinin dichotomies plus gulenko's erotic attitudes. I used the dichotomies I could choose and I left out MBTI dichotomies. This is my table: Notice how most types don't even come close. And mirror and activity partner a a lot closer than the dual!

[Kristiina]

it's a good start though, the spreadsheet you have there. do you know how to do AND, OR, IF and those sorts of "boolean" functions in Excel? using those you can generate all sorts of dichotomy data very quickly for any combination of types. which can help aid in understanding how the dichotomies mathematically relate to each other.

The easiest way to make a standard chart for excel is to work out a good routine:

you make one chart, with types in a column and ALL the dichotomies in a row (aristocrat, democrat, process, result, S, N, T, F, etc) with 1=yes and 0=no in each cell to indicate if that type has that dichotomy. Then you choose the dichotomies one after another (one for each 2 columns in a row). Then you copy all the chosen columns in a new table and add one column for "=SUM()" and then you can see which row (e.g. type)got the most points. Then you sort them. And if you're a very horrible overplanner, then you can also colorcode them according to the sum.

So for each new person you're trying to type, only choose the dichotomies you know and the more you know the more reliable your result is.

[aka-kitsune]

while i'm less inclined to apply them to Phaedrus, i do think aka and Loki's points about not "dumping" certain cases into an an ethicist IP typing are something to keep in mind here.

On the contrary, I think "points" such as these are to be disregarded, always. If they disagree with specific typings, they can say why; to say "oh you're just 'dumping people here' " is a non-argument.

I have noted this frequently here, and I have spoken up in specific occasions. Just because I haven't the inclination or facility to argue a point in a manner doesn't invalidate my experience.

What prevents you from observing such a phenomenon yourself? More than a few posters here have noted the general willingness to ascribe EVERY single EMOTIONAL reaction by ANYONE to , and hence summarily hurry them into IEI or similar strong F-valuing type. It's akin to the stereotypical male response to women (she's just being "emotional") and invalidating their concerns. Just because you don't value a feeling reaction, that doesn't automatically make it inaccurate.

Sorry, but I see that as default placement, not to mention extremely lazy thought process.

[Expat]

More than a few posters here have noted the general willingness to ascribe EVERY single EMOTIONAL reaction by ANYONE to , and hence summarily hurry them into IEI or similar strong F-valuing type.

Rubbish.

[discojoe]

I object to the ISFj avatar being a woman holding a baby. Whoevers idea that was needs to be shot in the head.

The correct avatar is the Bride holding a katana.

[FDG]

I object to the ISFj avatar being a woman holding a baby. Whoevers idea that was needs to be shot in the head.

The correct avatar is the Bride holding a katana.

Bah, what about a combination?

[tcaudilllg]

Hitta's descriptions appeal to the individualist in each of us. They represent our usage of the elements to differentiate processes. For hitta this is a natural, dominant state of awareness; for many of the rest of us, it is less so.

His descriptions are no less relevant than are those at Socionscope.com, at least. Although I don't easy perceive them in my own experience, I think this is because I'm poorly aware of the role they play in my personality and behavior.

[mm]

hitta, in the end it's up to you to decide your type of course, but I would also like to put down a vote for IEI. Ever since I saw your videos, I never really saw a reason to doubt that. It's been a couple of weeks, but IIRC, the things I saw in those videos were IP, Ni, Fe, Ti HA and Te PoLR.

The fact you enjoy working with the socionics model shows a clear Ti>Te preference, but the way you go about it looks very irrational to me. When it comes to reasoning about logical structure, constructs, models,... a rational type has a far more smoother style than you. As I see it, you'd rather rewrite socionics from scratch, in a way that you can understand it, instead of embracing it first. You hardly if ever make any references to classical socionics for instance. I don't think you ever explained how your theory relates to it, what changes you made or what you added or what you think is wrong with socionics that your theory explains better. I think that's the main reason people respond suspiciously.

Socionics is a well-grounded theory. It starts with 3 dichotomies to categorise aspects of reality into 8 groups. Then it assigns functions to each of these groups. So a function represents cognitive awareness of one aspect of reality. You seem to have added a 4th dichotomy, splitting each aspect further into a + and - version. If that's how it should be interpreted, what dichotomy is it? Because it can't be any of the Reinin dichotomies, since they are all just logical combinations of the first 3. Then you also seem to equate +Xi with -Xe and vice versa. That just doesn't fly in classical socionics because then you're crossing dichotomy boundaries. You'll have to explain what you did and why you did it and how that makes it a better typing system, which is exactly what Te types are asking for and what you seem to have difficulty with (in a painful way).

So far, assuming you are Ti>Te and introvert, an irrational type with Ti as hidden agenda makes more sense to me than Ti as a leading function. That would give you Te PoLR, which, given the undertone of your messages above also makes sense. I think I also remember from one of your videos you briefly mentioned some people see you as lazy or not useful or would want to see you do more or something along those lines. I don't remember the exact wording. The point is, it was a brief example of oppressed Te that I related to incredibly because I'm INFp with ENTj/ISFj parents.

Anyway, about the Fe in your videos. Fe is usually related to emowtions and happy feely queer stuff. Scratch that. It's not what Fe is fundamentally about, only consequentially. The thing is, we all live in two worlds, an external one that we share with everyone else and an internal one, shaped by our own history, memories, experiences in much the same way as the external world is continuously shaped through time. Te is about these dynamics in the external world. Fe is about these dynamics in the internal world. It's about how a person's own history, learnt experiences, his own definitions and understandings are influenced and shaped and how that affects who he is and what he does and what his motivations are. And this is exactly what your *entire* video talks about.

I don't fully grasp socionics myself yet, so I'll postpone final judgement, but overall I don't think IEI is that farfetched.

EDIT: I also think shaving your head is beta>alpha, but I admit that's a weak argument.