Gammas openly criticizing others: sign of care or lack of tact?

[Ms. Kensington]

I would like to know more about this. This meaning, I think that gamma types think that criticizing those close to them, like a family member or others in their work team, is something that shows you care about them, or rather it's a sign that you are close with them.

Is this perception correct? I've experienced this in my family which seems understandable, but most recently I had two gammas criticize me openly in our public work area, i thought this was inappropriate and wondered if this was type related or just rude or something.. heh

[Joy]

they don't value Fe (I would have taken you aside though)

[Khamelion]

shows you care about them, or rather it's a sign that you are close with them.

I would try not to call anyone out, in public and the like, usually. I've been told I lack some tact though, because I say what is on my mind and honestly. I usually blow it off with, "Booohooo, who cares?" Or just, "Who cares?" if I'm actually concerned I fucked up.

I can control myself though....sometimes.


I'm this way with my fiance, my parents (especially around non-family members, and I'll get louder) and close friends. Two friends don't seem to mind this trait in me, they seem to seek it occasionally actually. My ENFj friend on the other hand...well I have to water down everything or else face the concequences. It's not like I'm being threatened, I just know how she will react and it isn't worth it With my ENTp fiance, he mainly only backs off when I make a phsycial critisism aka the ones I make most often. He doesn't get that I'm trying to help him improve something very small, that I don't even care if he does, but he might like to so there it is. And if I critisize about anything else, he usually responds with soem sort of hostility if I don't word it right. Not so much watered down, but suger-coated.


Fe-dominant and Fe-seeking people I actually notice being disgruntled by it. Usually it is after the damage is done and I reflect, "Ahh, see what I did there, thats where their attitude went to shit. Wuss..." Or something like that lololol

[Blaze]

I would like to know more about this. This meaning, I think that gamma types think that criticizing those close to them, like a family member or others in their work team, is something that shows you care about them, or rather it's a sign that you are close with them.

Is this perception correct? I've experienced this in my family which seems understandable, but most recently I had two gammas criticize me openly in our public work area, i thought this was inappropriate and wondered if this was type related or just rude or something.. heh

you'd probably see this type of behavior from delta or gamma. it seems Te & Fi.

alpha and beta are going to either take you aside or joke through it by teasing in a way which gets everybody including you to laugh.

[Blaze]

I would like to know more about this. This meaning, I think that gamma types think that criticizing those close to them, like a family member or others in their work team, is something that shows you care about them, or rather it's a sign that you are close with them.

Is this perception correct? I've experienced this in my family which seems understandable, but most recently I had two gammas criticize me openly in our public work area, i thought this was inappropriate and wondered if this was type related or just rude or something.. heh

you'd probably see this type of behavior from delta or gamma. it seems Te & Fi.

alpha and beta are going to either take you aside or joke through it by teasing in a way which gets everybody including you to laugh.

Not all Alpha, but ILE's can be brutal with criticism...

Read the part about in Stratievskaya's description of ILE. When a ILE really criticizes you or tries to control you, that's when he's getting close.

She's very harsh about ILE's but I think it's mostly in part true of us.

I think we shouldn't narrow this down to Quadra behavior, it's might be related to strong feeling vs weak feeling.
And a work team, I have no trouble expressing my opinion, depending on how long we've worked together, politely or perhaps informally. But a work team is not close to me, never have been, never will be.

p'rhaps so...i can be critical, but not usually with people i'm close to. i'm most critical when i'm teaching. when supervising, you have to be careful. in a family, you have to be careful. in teamwork situations you have to be careful. but hey, it's just what i've learned. really, you have to be careful with criticism in all situations.

[discojoe]

This is true with me, but you have to get really close -- like within two feet -- before I'll say anything critical.

[Blaze]

hkkmr, here is where i disagree with the socionics theory. yes it is important to find people we can comfortably interact with, but most people will not be in our quadra and most situations will not be ideal for ILE. or anybody for that matter.

therefore, in addition to trying to find people and situations which complement us, we should try to improve our behaviors and let go of ones which only serve to shoot ourselves in the foot.

if one of those behaviors is shooting off at the mouth with people we are close to and criticizing them, then we should try to stop doing that and come up with something more constructive.

[FDG]

I openly criticize people in work settings. Couldn't give a shit about their feelings, we're working, we're trying to get things done, not having a nice cozy dinner. Wait though: this applies only to males, I have real trouble criticizing women.

However I never criticize people I love (significant others and the like), and I also expect not to be criticized too much.

[discojoe]

I openly criticize people in work settings. Couldn't give a shit about their feelings, we're working, we're trying to get things done, not having a nice cozy dinner. Wait though: this applies only to males, I have real trouble criticizing women.

However I never criticize people I love (significant others and the like), and I also expect not to be criticized too much.

[FDG]

I openly criticize people in work settings. Couldn't give a shit about their feelings, we're working, we're trying to get things done, not having a nice cozy dinner. Wait though: this applies only to males, I have real trouble criticizing women.

However I never criticize people I love (significant others and the like), and I also expect not to be criticized too much.

I was waiting for this response, but I would also like to know the rationale behind it, eheh

Because it seems to be the opposite of Fe. If Fe is about group and socially accepted emotional atmosphere, then I should care more about causing problems in a work setting rather than causing them in a relationship. Whereas a Fi-Te type would be more inclined to downsize Fe (harmony) favoring Te (efficiency), but also upsizing Fi (connection) over Ti(doing what should be done) in personal matters - and thus not criticizing.

Also, it seems to be a positivist perspective.

[discojoe]

I openly criticize people in work settings. Couldn't give a shit about their feelings, we're working, we're trying to get things done, not having a nice cozy dinner. Wait though: this applies only to males, I have real trouble criticizing women.

However I never criticize people I love (significant others and the like), and I also expect not to be criticized too much.

I was waiting for this response, but I would also like to know the rationale behind it, eheh

Okay.

First, you show no reservations in being openly critical of someone in a public work environment. That points to Se. You're using Ti to rationalize wanton disregard for the feelings of other people by saying that since work is done to complete tasks, personal feelings are irrelevant. That's a bit shortsighted, as from personal experience I can tell you that regarding people's feelings, especially during work, is a much more effective way to keep things moving along efficiently, as they'll be far more inclined to listen to you. Being callous in regard to someone's emotional state will only serve to make everyone hate you, and for good reason.

Then, you basically say that you show Fe to people you like, and expect it in return. Being uncritical of people shows some attempt at making them feel good, but Gammas can be very critical of one another and thrive off of mutual correction.

The way I see it, harsh criticism is only warranted when someone is being unreasonably negligent.

[Blaze]

so discojoe you think FDG is an estp then i take it? pretty convincing analysis.

[FDG]

Then, you basically say that you show Fe to people you like, and expect it in return. Being uncritical of people shows some attempt at making them feel good, but Gammas can be very critical of one another and thrive off of mutual correction.

Okay for the first point, you're actually right. As far as this goes, I don't know, when I am with my girlfriend I'd enjoy to relax and not really minding my steps in order to pay attention not to do something she doesn't like. Doesn't everybody like tolerance in a mate? Criticism is only necessary when the other party is doing something bad for themselves...otherwise, I'd rather stay at home doing nothing than go out just to be nagged, don't you think?

Basically, I think some stuff is just really baseline human preferences that have nothing to do with functions.

[Ms. Kensington]

um ok.. i was asking if it matters to a gamma how close you are to a person if you are going to criticize.

btw I thought it was a really classic gamma crticism-- "you overthink things and don't get them done as fast", and I think i responded really classically as well "well you certainly get them done faster, but whether I overthink them is another story" (and they can make mistakes in their haste). However I was outnumbered; their values win and I understand that. INFp boss is not available but also criticized.

[Khamelion]

Being close hardly matters to me, but I have more passion for it if they are close. And I'll care about is them taking it the wrong way more so.

With everyone else, I'll only care if it is causing some huge miscommunication/misconceptions. I hate burning bridges and if I casually (to me) critisize the wrong person, they will try to burn it down just to spare themselves for what they THINK I'm going to bring upon them.

[reyn_til_runa]

I would like to know more about this. This meaning, I think that gamma types think that criticizing those close to them, like a family member or others in their work team, is something that shows you care about them, or rather it's a sign that you are close with them.

Is this perception correct? I've experienced this in my family which seems understandable, but most recently I had two gammas criticize me openly in our public work area, i thought this was inappropriate and wondered if this was type related or just rude or something.. heh

I almost always criticize privately as i think i am generally more effective this way. i hardly ever criticize for petty faults. i often criticize people for what i thought were a series of errors of a period of time -- amounting to quite a large, often unredeemable, error. the impact tends to be more significant when you criticize a pattern of behavior for what it produced rather than an incident of behavior removed from any thought of consequence. i wonder if other gammas are like this -- criticizing patterns of behavior rather than incidents and, as a result, criticizing more heavily, not necessarily more often.


example:
it's like i would not care that my mother would never come to my activities (one incident)
yet i cared that, overall, she could not understand how to be my mother (trend over time)

and if i ever expressed a complaint to her, it would be the latter type, i guess assuming that she'd actually want to become a better mother, when most of the time she did not. so yes, in some way, it's a "caring" thing.

[Ms. Kensington]

hm.. i think that other types may criticize for patterns but probably would not/could not describe it as eloquently.

[crazedrat]

It's true. I critisize myself in the same way, I don't have trouble admiting I ... completely suck ass. I also don't see why other people would want to pretend they don't suck ass, I consider the flaws obvious.. so the simple observation of them to me, is only a matter of observing the obvious. It is more about honesty, then anything else.. when bitterness sets in, it's a response to the resistances often encountered after voicing these observations, more than it is anger toward the act or flaw itself. its kind of hard to explain. My sister is ESFP, we often laugh together about how we suck.. we enjoy critisizing ourselves, almost. But my Mom, ESFJ... if I say the slightest negative comment, regardless of how true it is, she will deny its validity. This response seems, with her, an instant reaction.. Kind of like she has an automatic counter-measure deployment system in her brain which senses and nullifies any negativly charged idea regardless of whether it is true or untrue. Makes her the ultimate sheep, in my opinion.. she is nowhere, and happy about it.

[FDG]

It's true. I critisize myself in the same way, I don't have trouble admiting I ... completely suck ass. I also don't see why other people would want to pretend they don't suck ass.

Because I'm awesome, I'm not really pretending, I tend to genuinely believe it I also think most people tend to be awesome in some way or another. Better to be nowhere and sheep and happy than to think in elitist terms and be unhappy Even though it'd be even better to be both happy and mentally autonomous. And if somebody else thinks somebody I like is stupid or crap or thinks I am stupid or crap...well too bad for him that he's missing all the good things in life just due to his mindset.

[crazedrat]

that philosophy ultimately results in a dying world, which is happy and unaware it is dying. Pretty much the way the world is now, actually...
Have you ever seen the movie independence day?
It is an interesting film, the alien race is symbolic of the human race in a certain way.
The climactic scene is where the president comes face to face with an alien, and the alien uses some kind of mind-connecting ability to speak with him.
The president asks if there can be peace between the aliens, and the lesser humans.
Alien says peace? No peace.
So he says... what is it you want us to do? The alien says... (music builds up) ..Die!!!
The aliens sole desire is for the human race to die.
Longer story short, they shoot the alien, but not before the president has "seen the aliens thoughts"
The aliens, apparently, move from planet to planet, consuming every natural resource and then moving on.. In an effort to fuel the needs of the social structure they have created for themselves. The death of the human race, the lesser race, becomes an inevitability.
In the same way that is our attitude toward everything lesser than us.
The aliens in the movie are symbolic of the human race, they are to the galaxy what we are to the world; not limited to the earth.. to anything, really. Another nation, a family member, a friend, etc.
The aliens do not feel the suffering of the humans, they are happy to keep it out of their awareness.. they are simply interested in fueling their societies appetite.
As a sheep with an appetite, that is how you remain. And this inevitably exists, and is present in a person, to whatever extent they qualify as a sheep. ESFJ in my mind is the epitome of the word sheep.
Anyway, that is why your attitude and mind is... well, by my standards, not really something awesome.
The only flaw in what I just said is the ... "Okay, so what do you expect us to do about it?"
The answer: Aside from doing exactly what Jesus did; and I say this from an intellectual, and not religious perspective.. reject the social appetite, and walk against the structure.. which will ultimately result in the society killing you in some sense of the word; aside from that, there is nothing you can do. Be aware of it, admit you suck ass... move on.. but don't lie to yourself, don't deny it; you are cancer

[Khamelion]

DAMN

[crazedrat]

funny response
that is kind of how it is with my ESFp sister when we're shit talking.
now we laugh about it.
HAHHAHAHA.
there, see? Thats how it goes. Except for that was more of a serious idea then usual.
In real life we do it with everyone we both mutually know, we basically.. just really enjoy talking about peoples shit. We don't disclude ourselves from the shit talking either.
When I'm around an ESFp I have an easier time making it funny and less serious.
I think I read something that said ESFp/INTp duality was an "aristocratic" relationship... which mentioned this kind of interaction.
I'm not sure to what extent this will apply to all INTps, ESFps, or all gamma for that matter.. but it is true in my case, and the few ESFps I knows... case.
Sometimes the shit talking becomes serious like that. When that happens the ESFp helps pull me out of cynical mode.. by first not trying to deny the truth, that I am right, and secondly by giving some kind of emotional reaction to it.. anyway, when they do that it is a relief for me, and the cycle continues.

[Khamelion]

secondly by giving some kind of emotional reaction to it.. anyway, when they do that it is a relief for me

[Warlord]

we basically.. just really enjoy talking about peoples shit

I see. Sooo... how was your shit today?

[FDG]

that philosophy ultimately results in a dying world, which is happy and unaware it is dying.

That's the way I like it By the way, everything you say sounds like mystical bullshit without any logical or empirical backing.

[Blaze]

that philosophy ultimately results in a dying world, which is happy and unaware it is dying.

That's the way I like it By the way, everything you say sounds like mystical bullshit without any logical or empirical backing.

i kinda like that quote....

[FDG]

that philosophy ultimately results in a dying world, which is happy and unaware it is dying.

That's the way I like it By the way, everything you say sounds like mystical bullshit without any logical or empirical backing.

It's funny.. it's not the world the dies... the world, the universe does not die. It's we that die.... you could nuke the world forever and it would not cease to exist but simply transform.

It's humans that think we're somehow alive beyond this thin shell of cohesiveness. We're just cosmic skum arranged in a manner that allows us to perpetuate, think, love, fight, fuck.

Some people think that this is nihilistic thought, but I tend to think this is the opposite of nihilism. If the purpose of our existance was to perpetuate, think, love, fight and fuck, those are all really good reason for why we're here, better then all the religious bullshit that tells us to believe and prescribe punishment for not believing.

Yeah, great point.

[crazedrat]

[quote="hkkmr"]

that philosophy ultimately results in a dying world, which is happy and unaware it is dying. Pretty much the way the world is now, actually...
Have you ever seen the movie independence day?
It is an interesting film, the alien race is symbolic of the human race in a certain way.
The climactic scene is where the president comes face to face with an alien, and the alien uses some kind of mind-connecting ability to speak with him.
The president asks if there can be peace between the aliens, and the lesser humans.
Alien says peace? No peace.
So he says... what is it you want us to do? The alien says... (music builds up) ..Die!!!
The aliens sole desire is for the human race to die.
Longer story short, they shoot the alien, but not before the president has "seen the aliens thoughts"
The aliens, apparently, move from planet to planet, consuming every natural resource and then moving on.. In an effort to fuel the needs of the social structure they have created for themselves. The death of the human race, the lesser race, becomes an inevitability.
In the same way that is our attitude toward everything lesser than us.
The aliens in the movie are symbolic of the human race, they are to the galaxy what we are to the world; not limited to the earth.. to anything, really. Another nation, a family member, a friend, etc.
The aliens do not feel the suffering of the humans, they are happy to keep it out of their awareness.. they are simply interested in fueling their societies appetite.
As a sheep with an appetite, that is how you remain. And this inevitably exists, and is present in a person, to whatever extent they qualify as a sheep. ESFJ in my mind is the epitome of the word sheep.
Anyway, that is why your attitude and mind is... well, by my standards, not really something awesome.
The only flaw in what I just said is the ... "Okay, so what do you expect us to do about it?"
The answer: Aside from doing exactly what Jesus did; and I say this from an intellectual, and not religious perspective.. reject the social appetite, and walk against the structure.. which will ultimately result in the society killing you in some sense of the word; aside from that, there is nothing you can do. Be aware of it, admit you suck ass... move on.. but don't lie to yourself, don't deny it; you are cancer

It's funny.. it's not the world the dies... the world, the universe does not die. It's we that die.... you could nuke the world forever and it would not cease to exist but simply transform.
Some people think that this is nihilistic thought, but I tend to think this is the opposite of nihilism. If the purpose of our existance was to perpetuate, think, love, fight and fuck, those are all really good reason for why we're here, better then all the religious bullshit that tells us to believe and prescribe punishment for not believing.

Well, you're fucking with my word "world". By world I meant to include the plants, animals, and the general ability of the world to sustain life: the world dies to the extent it becomes impotent; and the idea of this is the lesser dies for the sake of the greater: in this case we kill all life on the earth lesser then us, plants animals etc. Furthermore, this idea extends even beyond the literal earth, as I said, to any system outside yourself worthy of depletion; particularly other forms of life, human beings included; like friends, and strife between nations.
You are implying human beings are the only relevent affected party of the cycle; basically missing the idea the lesser dies for the greater... which is the key idea to the entire paragraph.
But hey, I guess the nihilistic philosophers just had it all backwards didn't they? It's a happy world after all!
I don't know why you're turning this into a religious matter, I don't consider it one.
Your idea to embrace our cancerous existance isn't really so bad, I'm not sure how I feel about that... since it is inevitable. As long as you don't accelerate the cycle with this philosophy, I guess it could resolve pointless mental conflict. And as long as you aren't trying to deny the truth of your existance, and pretend you're not cancerous.
People love to dismiss ideas like this in the quickest and simplest way possible... i.e., the idiot up there with the anime icon. I can only sit back and laugh
A petri dish filled with bacteria will always ultimately consume the energy in the dish and pollute the dish to the point the bacteria can no longer survive, at which point they die out. Try it at home! If you want to believe there is room for debate on this issue; if you think I'm somehow "wrong".. that this just can't be! It's mystical! Mystical! ... you are an idiot.

[crazedrat]

Well, this is more complicated then you give it credit.
A collection of observations on the types, and their varying views on god, which are speculative and may or may not be completely inaccurate:

Introverts have more of an individual relationship with God, as opposed to a clearly defined and accepted God they create their own impression of their unique God; they have a vague and unclarified sense of what God is, and this exists within them; they read a religious text not to inform themselves on the nature of God, but to compare the texts definition with their own. For an introvert, God is an ideal state of mind. In this way, for an introvert, various religious texts are more inclined seem as a descriptive part of the whole which is God, and all texts containing some relevent truth. So introversion lends itself to pluralism. When an introvert identifies themself with a religion, they are making a statement they found its doctrine particularly in agreement with their personal beliefs. Extraverts think of God in a more dogmatic way: he exists as a circumstance, like a guy sitting up in a cloud on a throne looking down to the earth. They read religious text in the way a person would read a biology textbook. God, for an extravert, implies the idea of an ideal circumstance, or an imperative toward an ideal circumstance. Because of this limited, circumstantial approach to the issue extraverts will tend to perceive the various religions as conflicting with eachother, and would be more inclined to make a statement like the one you just made.

Sensors are more concerned with the facts of what God is, how he exists in the concrete universe. They think of god in literal terms, are more dogmatic, fundamentalist with their interprative beliefs and imperatives, which are geared directly toward reality.., traditions like eating bread/wine at mass, etc.. For Intuitives the idea of God is what matters. His idea is his existance; and whether this idea is or is not feasable or sound. Traditions are thought of as irrelevent. The implication, and the meaning, is what is important.

Feelers focus on the love of God, Thinkers focus on the justice of God

And, I think, EP/IJ is a tendency toward disbelief, EJ/IP a tendency toward belief.

So yeah, a complicated issue... as you can see there are different ways of thinking of what the word God even means..from reading what you both wrote, I am willing to go out on a limb and say you guys are talking about something completely different and don't realize it because of the limits of language. The whole debate is stupid.
And your narcissistic, rub it in the face approach is annoying
If alpha is going to come over into gamma, can't you all at least put that alpha smugness which makes me cringe on hold while you're here?

[FDG]

There's nothing like belief or disbelief, just pure reality.

[crazedrat]

pure reality is chaos, and has no meaning. A table doesn't exist in "reality"... it is a table because I believe it is a table. I have a set of ideas which arbitrarily define the parameters of what can be labled a table, and what can't be. If I didn't have these ideas to structure reality.. if my mind was completely chaotic, lacked belief... well, for one thing, that isn't possible for a mind.. organization is a prerequirement for a mind: so I, to the extent I am my mind, would have to not exist, for that to happen; or would no longer have an awareness of existance.
Whatever it is you're thinking of as reality, if it has meaning, leaves that to your imagination.
There is such thing as belief, but it is an organization imposed into reality.
To what extent this organization is chaotic, is the extent which it is in agreement with full reality.
In the end the best philosophy is.. fuck it.
anyway, I think that's what you're saying