Se PoLR vs Se Dual Seeking

[ScarlettLux]

Now I have a little situation where I'm confused about what traits would actually constitute a person being dual seeking vs. PoLR - it's mainly to due with the fact that I can not distinguish between LII or ILI for someone I know because they seem to have traits of both, but I am leaning heavily towards ILI for the time being.

Are these signs of PoLR or weakness and needing it? The lines seem to be blurred.

+ Coming off as very passive to the point of being weak
+ Totally unable to exert authority over others and seeming to be annoyed of others who do demonstrate authority.
+ Not knowing how to be physical, take control of the physical environment
+ Submitting to others willpower (wimpiness)
+ Easily led, easily controlled
+ Never wanting to thwart authority, very submissive b/c of fear of getting in trouble

... This person has all these traits but some seem obviously PoLR-like while others seem Dual seeking, because in all other respects creative seems to fit and a valuing of over is extremely blurred ... I would just like to know what others think would be major clues on whether a person is dual seeking or PoLR

Also another huge point - Someone who rarely, if ever shows negative emotions - never getting angry, etc. It almost seems like they are robotic. Is this more a trait of ILIs or LIIs? I would think ILIs because of the Fe PoLR but ... hmm. My point is that I see dual seeking as something different ... like I would think ILIs would somehow value aggression and anger in a way, that I see a lot of IEIs liking. Or am I totally wrong in my assumptions and ILIs actually shy away from showing anger/aggression?

[Suomea]

Most of the things you wrote can be characteristic of both. Figuring out things by POLR vs. 5th function I think is very tough. Does he have any friends? Do you have any pics?

[Hitta]

Now I have a little situation where I'm confused about what traits would actually constitute a person being dual seeking vs. PoLR - it's mainly to due with the fact that I can not distinguish between LII or ILI for someone I know because they seem to have traits of both, but I am leaning heavily towards ILI for the time being.

Are these signs of PoLR or weakness and needing it? The lines seem to be blurred.

+ Coming off as very passive to the point of being weak
+ Totally unable to exert authority over others and seeming to be annoyed of others who do demonstrate authority.
+ Not knowing how to be physical, take control of the physical environment
+ Submitting to others willpower (wimpiness)
+ Easily led, easily controlled
+ Never wanting to thwart authority, very submissive b/c of fear of getting in trouble

... This person has all these traits but some seem obviously PoLR-like while others seem Dual seeking, because in all other respects creative seems to fit and a valuing of over is extremely blurred ... I would just like to know what others think would be major clues on whether a person is dual seeking or PoLR

Also another huge point - Someone who rarely, if ever shows negative emotions - never getting angry, etc. It almost seems like they are robotic. Is this more a trait of ILIs or LIIs? I would think ILIs because of the Fe PoLR but ... hmm. My point is that I see dual seeking as something different ... like I would think ILIs would somehow value aggression and anger in a way, that I see a lot of IEIs liking. Or am I totally wrong in my assumptions and ILIs actually shy away from showing anger/aggression?

Well an INTj and INTp use Se in different ways. An INTj has -Se as a hidden agenda function. INTjs have a need to rebel against authority, and normally do not like authority much. INTjs also have +Se as a PoLR function which means that they lack willpower. INTjs have a hard time finishing the things that they conjure up to start. This also makes INTjs have very bad social anxiety problems. INTps on the other hand have -Se role function and +Se dualseeking function. -Se role function means that the INTp will hate to rebel against the authority figures, that they will be submissive to the authority. +Se dual seeking means that they will adore societys standards that are in place. They think that there is a reason for the rules in place and that they should follow them. Now with these functions being connected to the intuitive functions, an INTj has +Ne/-Ni and the INTp has +Ni/-Ne. This means that the INTj will have a strong need to be original and the INTp will have a strong need to be normal. INTjs also tend to have relativistic viewpoints on things, as INTps tend to believe in absolute certainties and have a dislike for grey areas.

[Expat]

+ Coming off as very passive to the point of being weak
+ Totally unable to exert authority over others and seeming to be annoyed of others who do demonstrate authority.
+ Not knowing how to be physical, take control of the physical environment
+ Submitting to others willpower (wimpiness)
+ Easily led, easily controlled
+ Never wanting to thwart authority, very submissive b/c of fear of getting in trouble

This description is not very useful, because you are giving your interpretations as to that person's motivations as if they were fact, which is not necessarily the case.

For instance - how do you know that the reason for

"Never wanting to thwart authority, very submissive "

is

"fear of getting in trouble"?

Or has the person said so?

Anyway, very simplistically:

- Se PoLR types have difficulty with the very concept of authoritarian pressure, they avoid people who do it and, most importantly, have no wish to be like them at all. They may appear to "resist" authority because they have difficulty even recognizing it.

- Se dual-seeking types are admiring of people who can exercise authority, and long for someone like that on their side to help them; but they will resent people who try to be authoritarian over them against their will, although they may have difficulty resisting it.

[implied]

maybe saying the same thing expat said. if i'm in fact -dual seeking, i can say that i don't think flat out aggression works with me. it's odd because i can be pretty aggressive if i think i've been wronged or whatever. actually the sort of force i'm speaking of does just the opposite and just pisses me off. on the other hand, charming, benevolent, generally fair authority that isn't too forceful or rude makes me melt. i don't buy into straight dictatorship, personally, and i wouldn't live under it. on the other hand, i'm ridiculously happy and get very "i'll do anything!" compliant when being led kindly yet firmly. i don't really resist all that well, all the same.

[Joy]

Now I have a little situation where I'm confused about what traits would actually constitute a person being dual seeking vs. PoLR - it's mainly to due with the fact that I can not distinguish between LII or ILI for someone I know because they seem to have traits of both, but I am leaning heavily towards ILI for the time being.

Are these signs of PoLR or weakness and needing it? The lines seem to be blurred.

+ Coming off as very passive to the point of being weak
+ Totally unable to exert authority over others and seeming to be annoyed of others who do demonstrate authority.
+ Not knowing how to be physical, take control of the physical environment
+ Submitting to others willpower (wimpiness)
+ Easily led, easily controlled
+ Never wanting to thwart authority, very submissive b/c of fear of getting in trouble

... This person has all these traits but some seem obviously PoLR-like while others seem Dual seeking, because in all other respects creative seems to fit and a valuing of over is extremely blurred ... I would just like to know what others think would be major clues on whether a person is dual seeking or PoLR

Also another huge point - Someone who rarely, if ever shows negative emotions - never getting angry, etc. It almost seems like they are robotic. Is this more a trait of ILIs or LIIs? I would think ILIs because of the Fe PoLR but ... hmm. My point is that I see dual seeking as something different ... like I would think ILIs would somehow value aggression and anger in a way, that I see a lot of IEIs liking. Or am I totally wrong in my assumptions and ILIs actually shy away from showing anger/aggression?

Does being led/dominated seem to bother this person? Does (s)he make passive aggressive protests, or does (s)he seem to appreciate it?

[UDP]

LIIs hate orders, I will confirm that much from experience.


How does he react to threatening environments?

[Minde]

I respect authority if I think they deserve it or if I think it's the right thing to do. But if I don't respect or like it/them I continue doing whatever I'm doing. If they get in my way I might get mad at them and start thinking mean thoughts towards them, usually pressing a little harder toward my goal or just going around them. Sometimes it's hard for me not to go at them or otherwise give the impression that I think they're utterly stupid (which really isn't the best long-term strategy).

But, in general, I don't hate the concept of authority. When done well it's a good thing. It can be quite nice having a competent leader around.

[Logos]

- Se PoLR types have difficulty with the very concept of authoritarian pressure, they avoid people who do it and, most importantly, have no wish to be like them at all. They may appear to "resist" authority because they have difficulty even recognizing it.

LIIs hate orders, I will confirm that much from experience.

Those are fair assessments. I would say that orders are treated as suspect by LIIs because they want to know why the order is being given (why not just ask?), on what authority is the order given, and what is the purpose that this order fulfills? For the LII, authority is something that is earned with purpose, credibility, trust, and integrity. But Expat, I think that those with a Se-PoLR can indeed recognize the perception of authority, but that does not mean that they act upon it or acknowledge it as legitimate or deem it as important. INxjs may see the power politics between people, but view it all as trivial.

[ataronchronon]

I used to get into trouble a lot because if someone told me to do something, I would always ask why. It's not that I was trying to challenge authority, it's that I wanted to know what was being asked so I could have a better understanding of what was being accomplished so I can see beyond the immediate situation and see if there was anything that the "authority" missed before giving me the assignment. It was basically me just trying to do a better job of helping, but they would always interpret the why question as a challenge to authority, which was not my intention at all.

Also:

INTjs also tend to have relativistic viewpoints on things, as INTps tend to believe in absolute certainties and have a dislike for grey areas.

Isn't this backwards? I thought it was INTps who never see anything as absolutely certain, like considering whether 2+2 will always give the same answer or not.

[Ms. Kensington]

i also think that you should be careful of ascribing motives to your friend, SL

ataronchronon, intjs need to have a context in order to say something is true, because their idea of truth is dependent on a structure that is intangible, while INTps have creative Te which is concerned with factual accuracy in the physical world; you are confused by what the wording above refers to.

[Hitta]

i also think that you should be careful of ascribing motives to your friend, SL

ataronchronon, intjs need to have a context in order to say something is true, because their idea of truth is dependent on a structure that is intangible, while INTps have creative Te which is concerned with factual accuracy in the physical world; you are confused by what the wording above refers to.

That is extremely accurate.

[ScarlettLux]

Hm, so I sort of get it now: LIIs would be more of the ones to like to thwart authority and such? I also recently read Gilly's Alpha "themes" for Movies, etc. and one of them is thwarting authority. So I see that putting any kind of pressure on LII to "do something" without just asking would be badly reacted to?

Well, I think that makes it more clear that this person is ILI ... I get the impression he is willingly led, actually he did voice once to me that being led "made things so much easier" rather than deciding something for oneself. Indecisive was also a word he used to describe himself which is probably not something the typical LII would say about themself, no?

The only reason I tended to doubt his dual seeking is that in IEIs, I see their dual seeking manifest itself almost as it would in an EIE with hidden agenda. That is to say, they would take delight in ordering people around, generally demonstrating a certain pizazz of willpower or "oomph" ... that really "badass" quality in some IEI males is very evident - they try hard to rebel and such, putting on a show of it because it is really something they are not so good at but wish to be and need help in.

I don't see any of that in this guy. He barely makes any move whatsoever regarding anything without external input. When you put us two together (EIE being very indecisive and looking towards a solid LSI to answer for) ... it is like we get almost nothing done. Perhaps Supervision relations does make the most sense, as I do see his flaws outright and be disgusted with them. However, this unwillingness to do anything related led me to thinking of PoLR too, hence the thread.

[UDP]

That might be right.


Do you ever chastise him for being unethical?

[ScarlettLux]

That might be right.


Do you ever chastise him for being unethical?

Oh, yes, I just thought of one particular occasion. It wasn't actually an ethics thing so much as that I thought him weak ... he never really goes up to people he doesn't know as I would do, even in a situation where it was pretty much required. This situation I am talking about was with a girl he was supposed to tutor in maths ... she never showed up the first day but then again, he came late, so my reasoning was that she came beforehand, not seeing him, and being a scared younger student, left. I would've nicely gone up to her and asked her to show up, made her less nervous about the ordeal ... but he didn't do that ... he just decided that ignoring the situation was best and "if she wanted to be tutored, she should call me" Yeah, that is just dumb.

I do find myself wanting to chastise him about a lot of things though.

[ScarlettLux]

True ... I find that he just doesn't know how to read emotional cues at all. Or he doesn't react the way I expect someone to. LSI friends are very emotionally dramatic, and I like that about them because to me, that seems like the natural, "right" way to be. They express everything they feel, anger, sadness, etc. I can help sift through it and all.

But this guy ... he doesn't ever get angry, or so he says. That's one of his weird defining traits ... the inability to really get pissed off even when I act a total bitch. I am looking for a reaction, it's probably one of those Victim-Aggressor games that I am playing ... an LSI or SLE would not take any of this BS but he does and it annoys me more than if he would just blow up in my face.

[Expat]

But Expat, I think that those with a Se-PoLR can indeed recognize the perception of authority, but that does not mean that they act upon it or acknowledge it as legitimate or deem it as important. INxjs may see the power politics between people, but view it all as trivial.

Right, then "acknowledge" is better phrasing than "recognize".

[Expat]

The only reason I tended to doubt his dual seeking is that in IEIs, I see their dual seeking manifest itself almost as it would in an EIE with hidden agenda. That is to say, they would take delight in ordering people around, generally demonstrating a certain pizazz of willpower or "oomph" ... that really "badass" quality in some IEI males is very evident - they try hard to rebel and such, putting on a show of it because it is really something they are not so good at but wish to be and need help in.

That's a very good observation.

I think that due to gender roles, male IEIs will often go more into Se-display; they will be more likely to do that than ILIs because IEIs are Fe-concerned, which ILIs are not.

Oh, yes, I just thought of one particular occasion. It wasn't actually an ethics thing so much as that I thought him weak ... he never really goes up to people he doesn't know as I would do, even in a situation where it was pretty much required. This situation I am talking about was with a girl he was supposed to tutor in maths ... she never showed up the first day but then again, he came late, so my reasoning was that she came beforehand, not seeing him, and being a scared younger student, left. I would've nicely gone up to her and asked her to show up, made her less nervous about the ordeal ... but he didn't do that ... he just decided that ignoring the situation was best and "if she wanted to be tutored, she should call me" Yeah, that is just dumb.

That does sound like an introvert, and Ni IP in particular.

True ... I find that he just doesn't know how to read emotional cues at all. Or he doesn't react the way I expect someone to. LSI friends are very emotionally dramatic, and I like that about them because to me, that seems like the natural, "right" way to be. They express everything they feel, anger, sadness, etc. I can help sift through it and all.

But this guy ... he doesn't ever get angry, or so he says. That's one of his weird defining traits ... the inability to really get pissed off even when I act a total bitch. I am looking for a reaction, it's probably one of those Victim-Aggressor games that I am playing ... an LSI or SLE would not take any of this BS but he does and it annoys me more than if he would just blow up in my face.

From this description, ILI seems like a good possibility.

I think LII is unlikely, since they are semi-duals of EIEs and it usually work well imo. The EIE may indeed think that the LII is "weak" but the EIE does get emotional feedback and Ti input from the LII.

Another possibility is EII.

[Blaze]

ScarlettLux wrote:

The only reason I tended to doubt his dual seeking is that in IEIs, I see their dual seeking manifest itself almost as it would in an EIE with hidden agenda. That is to say, they would take delight in ordering people around, generally demonstrating a certain pizazz of willpower or "oomph" ... that really "badass" quality in some IEI males is very evident - they try hard to rebel and such, putting on a show of it because it is really something they are not so good at but wish to be and need help in.

yeah i agree with this. when infp man does this, i say his Se is flaring up. it's cute. hehehehe