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Thread: Irony and Sarcasm as examples of "internal" of N and F?

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    Default Irony and Sarcasm as examples of "internal" of N a

    I found an interesting article: http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/neu193288.pdf
    It's not an easy read (for me), so I don't have anything near an understanding of what all it says. But there were pieces of it that I found interesting. To me there seems to be a strong feeling of connection between what the following portions say, and an example of what is meant by "internal" in the internal/external aspect (the one I refer to as implicit/explicit)…which is the N and F functions.

    I do know that …well…every NF I've met in person…enjoys irony a great deal, to the point of seeking it out in movies, literature, shared stories, humor, and incorporate it constantly in conversations. I'm not saying that only NFs use irony. But it's seemed to me that there are definitely differences between the sarcasm of an NT, an SF, and an NF. I'm still trying to figure out ST humor, lol. (There 's also slight differences, I think, between the focuses of the betan and deltan NFs..though each can appreciate the humour of the other, the …mmm…starting point(?)..seems to be different between them.)

    Anyways, here are the portions of the paper that stood out the most too me. Ok, the only parts that made any possible kind of sense to me, lol.

    Anyone have any comments about it?

    Irony is an indirect form of speech used to convey feelings in an indirect way. Ironic utterances are characterized by opposition between the literal meaning of the sentence and the speaker's meaning. One form of irony is sarcasm. Sarcasm is usually used to communicate implicit criticism about the listener or the situation. It is usually used in situations provoking negative affect and is accompanied by disapproval, contempt, and scorn…….The ironic speaker intends that the listener detect the deliberate falseness; he makes a statement that violates the context and intends the listener to recognize this statement. The interpretation of sarcasm thus involves understanding of the intentions expressed in the situation and may include processes of social cognition and theory of mind. (p1 left side)

    It has been demonstrated that the use of sarcasm has several social communicative functions, such as increasing the perceived politeness of the criticism, decreasing the perceived threat and aggressiveness of the criticism, and creating a humorous atmosphere. It appears that a deficit in understanding sarcastic utterances may reflect an impaired ability to understand social cues such as intentions, beliefs, and emotions. (p1 left/right side)

    A key aspect of social cognition is the ability to infer other people's mental state, thoughts, and feelings, commonly referred to as the theory of mind (ToM). Although irony has been investigated from a psycholinguistic perspective, recent findings in developmental and neuropsychological research suggest that understanding irony involves understanding of social cues and requires ToM. (p1 right side)

    Given the emotional and social communicative function of sarcastic utterances, it is only to be expected that its interpretation would be mediated by brain areas specialized in affective processing and social cognition.

    In the process of interpreting sarcastic utterances, the individual is required to understand the speaker's feelings, intentions, and perspective. (p10 left side)

    It has been suggested that understanding irony requires the ability to grasp the speaker's actual beliefs and the speaker's belief about the listener's belief. (p10 left side)

    Although some theorists have argued that in the process of understanding sarcasm, the listener first interprets the literal meaning of the sentence and then reinterprets it according to the context and the speaker's meaning, others have emphasized the importance of the speaker's attitude and suggested that the speaker's meaning might be accessed without full processing of the literal meaning and its incongruity. (p11 left side)

    ….First, the literal meaning of the utterance is interpreted in left hemisphere language cortices. Hence at the beginning of the process, judgment of a literal and a nonliteral meaning of a sentence involves a common neural network. Second, the intentional, social, and emotional context is processed in the frontal lobes and the right hemisphere, correspondingly. At this stage, the contradiction between the literal meaning and the social emotional context is identified. Finally, to derive the true meaning of the utterance, the listener then has to integrate the literal meaning along with the social and emotional knowledge of the particular situation and previous situations and make a decision regarding the true meaning. (p11 left side)
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    irony is dead.

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    I say that you are definitely on to something here, because NTs never use irony or sarcasm in what they say. In fact, I would go as far to say that they primarily use the opposite of irony and sarcasm in their humor: ynori and msacras. Irony? Sarcasm? What would NTs possibly know of such things? And even if they knew of them, they certainly could never use them by any means, because it's just not in their functions. They have the N, but they are missing the F! I mean, honestly, how the F*@# can you use irony and sarcasm to great effect with the F*@#in' F?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I say that you are definitely on to something here, because NTs never use irony or sarcasm in what they say. In fact, I would go as far to say that they primarily use the opposite of irony and sarcasm in their humor: ynori and msacras. Irony? Sarcasm? What would NTs possibly know of such things? And even if they knew of them, they certainly could never use them by any means, because it's just not in their functions. They have the N, but they are missing the F! I mean, honestly, how the F*@# can you use irony and sarcasm to great effect with the F*@#in' F?
    Wait, are you being serious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I say that you are definitely on to something here, because NTs never use irony or sarcasm in what they say. In fact, I would go as far to say that they primarily use the opposite of irony and sarcasm in their humor: ynori and msacras. Irony? Sarcasm? What would NTs possibly know of such things? And even if they knew of them, they certainly could never use them by any means, because it's just not in their functions. They have the N, but they are missing the F! I mean, honestly, how the F*@# can you use irony and sarcasm to great effect with the F*@#in' F?
    Wait, are you being serious?
    Always, because as an NT, I just do not have the capacity to either create or appreciate irony and sarcasm to the extremities that NFs can with with their N and F. Maybe if I was an NF-type I could use irony and sarcasm, but as it stands now, it but pales in comparison with the craftsmanship of NF irony and sarcasm. But I can dream. Oh yes, I can dream. But until then I am afraid that I must mask my NF-envy in deadpan seriousness and avoid the use of irony and sarcasm lest I so desire a NF-type to remind me how far I have to go in obtaining this dream I have dreamed.
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    I think Elro asked because he may very well be an NT, so these things confuse him as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    I think Elro asked because he may very well be an NT, so these things confuse him as well.
    "Confuse?" What do you mean by that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
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    Thanks guys, this actually showed a couple of decent examples of the differences in how sarcasm can be given/interpreted.

    Logos' taking something directly out of context and going over the top with it;
    Elro's going for a more humorous bend to it;
    And Loki's sweet subtlety (possibly seeming more "subtle" due to Logos' over the top attempts (?)).

    It was actually Niffweed's comment that reminded me of some of the things I've admired about a couple of NTs from this forum. Normally Niff's sarcasm is over the top and caustic, but the above comment was actually something I can appreciate. It reminded me of a couple of times when I appreciated hkkmr's awareness of irony in a couple of situations. And elsewhere niveK showed a clear awareness of the subtle ironies in specific situations he mentioned elsewhere, recently…seeing the humour in it, and without the going over the top nor causticness he's shown elsewhere/elsetime in this forum.


    The article included the following in its description of sarcasm:
    * Used to convey feelings in an indirect way.
    * Used to increase the perceived politeness of the criticism
    * Used to decrease the perceived threat and aggressiveness of the criticism
    * Used to create a humorous atmosphere
    * Interpreting requires some understanding of the speaker's feelings, intentions, and perspective

    I'm thinking that perhaps the study, or the article's interpreting of the study, was done by an NF, hence the focus on the numerous implicit aspects as well as the focus on the affective content of sarcasm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I'm thinking that perhaps the study, or the article's interpreting of the study, was done by an NF, hence the focus on the numerous implicit aspects as well as the focus on the affective content of sarcasm.
    Well the over-the-top was a response to the fact that you still have not given a very good reason as to why irony and sarcasm is necessarily more inherent in NFs or a part of their related functions.
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    I find NT sarcasm to be capable of more nastiness than NF sarcasm, often more acrid and stinging if that's any help, ann.

    I definitely appreciate dark humor, but there's certainly a point where I cringe at how deep the bite can be. I'm uncomfortable with really vicious sarcasm (involving mutilation, envisioning deaths, etc.). Most of the NFs I know stop short of open contempt, yet I frequently get this undercurrent from many NTs. (Two NT friends I know casually toss out brutal deathwishes to idiot motorists in traffic like cake.)

    NFs generally try not to cross the "too nasty" line, but NTs aren't held back by such concerns.
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    The article included the following in its description of sarcasm:
    * Used to convey feelings in an indirect way.
    * Used to increase the perceived politeness of the criticism
    * Used to decrease the perceived threat and aggressiveness of the criticism
    * Used to create a humorous atmosphere
    * Interpreting requires some understanding of the speaker's feelings, intentions, and perspective
    this is very Fi. it seems like nothing more than spin, and twisting things. an NT will see the criticism through the politeness and become offended by the idea that the criticism has had to have been "softened" as if they can't take it or something. it's manipulative because the person wants to criticize but doesn't want to take responsibility for giving the criticism. seems very victim-y and passive aggressive.

    i'd rather people just told me what time it is and we'll mix it up.

    ILE

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    Actually I find sarcasm mostly boring, although sometimes it can be fun. It's not any more wittier than potty humor, on the other hand potty humor is funnier. What I find funniest is probably the direct opposite of well-meaning sarcasm. Dark sarcasm on the other hand seems cowardly to me.

    As they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Those who are curious what's the highest then, it's satire.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

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    I love irony... I see irony everywhere I go. Sometimes I couldn't readily explain what exactly about something is ironic, but most of the time there's a reason that I could readily explain. This amusement and fascination with irony has led to my laughing at a lot of seemingly random times. One time I felt like a horrible person because I saw an ambulance speeding down the street, and it almost ran over a pedestrian.

    Here's something else that struck me as somewhat ironic:




    Anyways, I've always sort of connected a greater than average appreciation for irony to Ni. Not sure about sarcasm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    Actually I find sarcasm mostly boring, although sometimes it can be fun. It's not any more wittier than potty humor, on the other hand potty humor is funnier. What I find funniest is probably the direct opposite of well-meaning sarcasm. Dark sarcasm on the other hand seems cowardly to me.
    To each his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    As they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Those who are curious what's the highest then, it's satire.
    You picked two very similar forms of humor to put at opposite ends of the scale.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I'm thinking that perhaps the study, or the article's interpreting of the study, was done by an NF, hence the focus on the numerous implicit aspects as well as the focus on the affective content of sarcasm.
    Well the over-the-top was a response to the fact that you still have not given a very good reason as to why irony and sarcasm is necessarily more inherent in NFs or a part of their related functions.
    you seem to have missed this part of my originial post:
    I'm not saying that only NFs use irony. But it's seemed to me that there are definitely differences between the sarcasm of an NT, an SF, and an NF.
    you also seem to have missed or not read what I had quoted from the paper/study/whatever the hell its called.

    It kept specifically referring to focusing on the implicit aspects of sarcasm over any kind of explicit aspects.
    socionics has N and F as implicit functions; S and T as explicit functions.
    I was curious if maybe there was perhaps something like an N (or Ne/Ni) variety of sarcasm
    as well as if there was perhaps something like an F (or Fe/Fi) variety of sarcasm.
    I was curious if the types of irony appreciated by a person could be related to their N, their F, an F/N polr, or even an F/N HA.

    I was interested in getting people to talk about their observations, their understandings, and how they view sarcasm and irony. I was hoping for responses like what aka-kitsune, Blaze, Warlord, and Joy wrote. But as you can see, I was willing to accept the examples given to me. I would also have accepted someone else reading the paper and pointing out the parts of it I misunderstood or flat out missed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    I find NT sarcasm to be capable of more nastiness than NF sarcasm, often more acrid and stinging if that's any help, ann.

    I definitely appreciate dark humor, but there's certainly a point where I cringe at how deep the bite can be. I'm uncomfortable with really vicious sarcasm (involving mutilation, envisioning deaths, etc.). Most of the NFs I know stop short of open contempt, yet I frequently get this undercurrent from many NTs. (Two NT friends I know casually toss out brutal deathwishes to idiot motorists in traffic like cake.)

    NFs generally try not to cross the "too nasty" line, but NTs aren't held back by such concerns.
    Yes, this is one of the differences I have noticed as well.
    Though, if Elro is an NT, then I will have to adjust for that as I've not seen him ever be acrid/caustic.
    Though, again, it may somehow be linked to say an Ni vs Ne difference. I definitely think that INTps tend to come off more caustic than INTjs/ENTps. Though I don't know what an ENTj's would be. (though Joy did say that irony amuses and fascinates her...which is an attitude I see in every NF I've ever met irl.....To others: no, I'm not saying joy is an NF, I'm merely pointing out a possible flaw in my differentiating.)
    INFps can be sharp and deep, but that's generally only if you have totally pissed them off and they want to hurt you.

    My daughter, ESFp, doesn't like sarcasm at all, but she is learning to appreciate irony. Usually it has to be explained to her. But then she's young and I think something like that would take time and experience to notice.
    Richard, ISFp, seems to notice only the irony in certain things, such as housing prices and economics regarding house buying/selling. (an interest he developed when we got this house) But when it comes to government, and his side, he seems to prefer to ignore the conflict between their actions/values and his own values. But then, this might be a "person" thing and not type related at all.

    It also seems to me that F's often use sarcasm or point out the irony of a situation by using humor. Their focus doesn't seem to be on attacking the person (unless they are very agitated with the person). Whereas a T's use of sarcasm seems to be more of an attack. But I admit, I may be showing one or more of the cognitive biases here. Hence why I was interested in what others had to say.

    Thank you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    As they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Those who are curious what's the highest then, it's satire.
    You picked two very similar forms of humor to put at opposite ends of the scale.
    It doesn't really take any wit to, for example to say something is small when it's actually big, or just change the tone of your voice. The false assumption of being witty lies in that when there's someone even dumber, who doesn't get the sarcasm. Just because there's someone even dumber, doesn't make the person witty. Even children are sarcastic, however children don't do clever satire.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    The article included the following in its description of sarcasm:
    * Used to convey feelings in an indirect way.
    * Used to increase the perceived politeness of the criticism
    * Used to decrease the perceived threat and aggressiveness of the criticism
    * Used to create a humorous atmosphere
    * Interpreting requires some understanding of the speaker's feelings, intentions, and perspective
    this is very Fi. it seems like nothing more than spin, and twisting things. an NT will see the criticism through the politeness and become offended by the idea that the criticism has had to have been "softened" as if they can't take it or something. it's manipulative because the person wants to criticize but doesn't want to take responsibility for giving the criticism. seems very victim-y and passive aggressive.

    i'd rather people just told me what time it is and we'll mix it up.
    In person I'm not nearly as sarcastic as I am on here. But then usually when I'm talking about the irony of something with someone, that other person (or small group) usually either add to it (pointing out parts I missed) or chuckle at the parts I pointed out. In real life, I seem blocked from being able to flat out state the differences...so yeah, I use a round about way of pointing it out. In writing, particularly say on a forum, if I try to point out something in my normal way, it's almost guaranteed that someone (else) will take offense at it or perceive me as attacking the person when all I'm really doing is pointing out a flaw in what was said. (This doesn't just happen to me, either. It's a constant thing happening to many people on this forum, regardless of their type.) So often times the person pointing out the irony has to either not point it out at all..or has to add an extra bend to it to try to make it more clear that they aren't attacking the other person..(for those readers who insist on seeing an attack where there was none). And then, of course, there's the common misunderstandings that tend to happen in these things regardless of the extra effort/attempt...heheh.
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    What Joy said! I love irony also and I often see it randomly and find myself laughing. I almost never use sarcasm or irony to manipulate people though. Sometimes I'll point out the irony to a good friend and we'll have a laugh. But usually I just keep it to myself. My ESFj husband loves irony also and he's always pointing it out but his isn't random--it has some moral or political lesson which occasionally annoys me. Dunno why!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    As they say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Those who are curious what's the highest then, it's satire.
    You picked two very similar forms of humor to put at opposite ends of the scale.
    It doesn't really take any wit to, for example to say something is small when it's actually big, or just change the tone of your voice. The false assumption of being witty lies in that when there's someone even dumber, who doesn't get the sarcasm. Just because there's someone even dumber, doesn't make the person witty. Even children are sarcastic, however children don't do clever satire.
    What you're talking about here is "poor man's wit". (Or else oxymorons...?)

    Those examples aren't really even trying to be ironic, or witty. And it's also my perception that it takes an intelligence to appreciate wit. Wit is primarily an intellectual pastime. It's pure cleverness to turn a phrase or make an artful observation. To use the mind creatively.

    Potty humor is so gauche and hackneyed. I mean, c'mon, the crotch joke? Can't we appreciate something a bit less predictable?? While this is not always a rule, I don't aspire to share a sense of humor with a 5 year old.
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    Both are examples of Ti. Sarcasm in "real time" also utilizes Fe, while irony is usually the product of Ni, but both are technically examples of non-sequitors, something that "defies logic;" ie, what is meant "defies," or goes against, what is said.

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    hkkmr: thank you, your post made some sense to me. Your last sentence, "So in closing, socionics would say that it is not that people appreciate irony and sarcasm, but that people appreciate irony and sarcasm differently." , hit closer to what I was thinking.

    redbaron: that reminded me of a couple of esfj friends of mine. Neither were much into politics...except for home politics. But the irony they noticed seemed to deal with either home politics or something in line with their own values. (which may be typical regardless of type)

    aka-kitsune: correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you also view "turning a phrase" as a bit of an entertaining puzzle. These are really the kind of puzzles I love most. When I get together with my brother, or my mom, or even all of us together, we create grand puzzles of this nature. Once in a while Richard will add something to it, almost all the time my step-father (ISFj) either doesn't get it, or is oblivious to it...seeming to think we are off our rockers going on and on about nothing. My daughter usually listens in and tries to add to it, she's still learning how, though.


    Speaking of which...funnily enough, here's a conversation I had with my daughter this morning.
    This morning I was walking my daughter to her bus stop. It was finally nice outside, so I told her that when the other kids show up, I'm going to go for a walk.
    Her: Break a leg!
    Me: What? You want me to crawl home?
    Her: Huh?
    Me: If I broke a leg then I'd have to crawl home and in pain. How could you be so mean to wish that on me?
    Her: *looks at me* Are you being sarcastic?
    Me: *puts on an over-exaggerated innocent face* Who me? Be sarcastic? *winks at her*
    Her: *points at me as if she caught me in something* I knew that was sarcasm!
    Me Thinking: How'd she know I was talking about sarcasm on the forum? I don't remember saying anything to her about it.

    We walk a few more steps.

    Her: Ok, don't break a leg….break an arm.
    Me: Uh, how mean!
    Her: I'm not being mean.
    Me: First you tell me to break a leg, now you tell me to break an arm. Why can't you just tell me to have a nice trip *imagines myself tripping*..er rather a nice walk?
    Her: *smiles brightly* Ok, have a nice trip.
    Me: No no no, just tell me to have a nice walk.
    Her: Have a nice Trip!
    Me: Stop jinxing me!
    Her: I'm not jinxing you!
    Me: First you tell me to break a leg, then you tell me to break an arm, and now you want me to trip.
    Her: Fine then, Good Luck.
    Me: What? Now you're jinxing me into something happening that I'll need Luck for. You WANT something bad to happen to me, don't you.
    Her: *laughs* Ok, fine…Have a nice Walk.
    Me: whew…that's better.

    I stay with her at the bus stop for a few minutes after the other kids show up.

    Me: Ok, I'm going to go try to get a walk in before the weather changes.
    Her: *Looks at the sky* *chuckles* Good Luck.
    Me: *mock grrrs*

    I get home, feed the animals, grab my coats, go outside, start locking the door, and rain starts splattering around me.
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  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    What you're talking about here is "poor man's wit". (Or else oxymorons...?)
    Well sarcasm is just "poor man's wit". Applied to to situation where it's intended to mock someone or something.

    No, oxymoron is different. For example: pretty ugly.

    While sarcasm would be like: Wow, aren't you just smart.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    What you're talking about here is "poor man's wit". (Or else oxymorons...?)
    Well sarcasm is just "poor man's wit". Applied to to situation where it's intended to mock someone or something.

    No, oxymoron is different. For example: pretty ugly.
    My reference to oxymoron was intended for your example about calling something big that's really small. That's oxymoron, not really witty, per se.

    While sarcasm would be like: Wow, aren't you just smart.
    Sarcasm IMO would be more like "Hmm... perhaps you should try for Mensa with that intellect" and I'd say it without any inflection. No noticable difference in tone (perhaps an arched brow, though). Wit is usually more effective when it's a bit stealthy and paired with deadpan delivery. Emphasizing *smart* like you indicate here would just make the sarcasm too obvious to really be entertaining. Too easy. It's just a gimme. That's why I said "poor man's wit". It's a poor attempt at being sarcastic, in my view.

    That's like David Spade. Funny, but obviously 90% sarcastic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    aka-kitsune: correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you also view "turning a phrase" as a bit of an entertaining puzzle. These are really the kind of puzzles I love most. When I get together with my brother, or my mom, or even all of us together, we create grand puzzles of this nature. Once in a while Richard will add something to it, almost all the time my step-father (ISFj) either doesn't get it, or is oblivious to it...seeming to think we are off our rockers going on and on about nothing. My daughter usually listens in and tries to add to it, she's still learning how, though.
    Yep.

    It's all about being entertaining. I've honed and sharpened my wit for many years now. There's nothing I appreciate more than someone who can keep up!

    Sounds like you're doing a great job schooling your daughter in Wit 101!
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune

    That's like David Spade. Funny, but obviously 90% sarcastic.
    I get tired of David Spade very quickly.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune

    That's like David Spade. Funny, but obviously 90% sarcastic.
    I get tired of David Spade very quickly.
    Yes, his snarky schtick can get old real fast. When he's straight-man, and has someone to play off, he can be really quite entertaining. But trying to carry an entire routine/movie, he can be really a twerp. :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron
    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune

    That's like David Spade. Funny, but obviously 90% sarcastic.
    I get tired of David Spade very quickly.
    Yes, his snarky schtick can get old real fast. When he's straight-man, and has someone to play off, he can be really quite entertaining. But trying to carry an entire routine/movie, he can be really a twerp. :wink:
    I completely agree. It might be interesting to start a thread on humor and styles of humor. I wonder if it's type-related. For example slapstick is maybe more related? Etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    It doesn't really take any wit to, for example to say something is small when it's actually big, or just change the tone of your voice. The false assumption of being witty lies in that when there's someone even dumber, who doesn't get the sarcasm. Just because there's someone even dumber, doesn't make the person witty. Even children are sarcastic, however children don't do clever satire.
    It depends on the child, I'd say. I have known a few kids that were more clever than you might think. I also think you're considering only really weak examples of sarcasm. Yes, sarcasm can be really dumb, but it doesn't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    I don't aspire to share a sense of humor with a 5 year old.
    I do. Again, I don't think you people are giving kids enough credit. There's some kids humor that is pretty crappy, but some of it that I like so much I still use it.
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    Don't underestimate the humor of a 5-year-old! Trust me, I've gotten some good ones from my three over the years.....
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro
    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    It doesn't really take any wit to, for example to say something is small when it's actually big, or just change the tone of your voice. The false assumption of being witty lies in that when there's someone even dumber, who doesn't get the sarcasm. Just because there's someone even dumber, doesn't make the person witty. Even children are sarcastic, however children don't do clever satire.
    It depends on the child, I'd say. I have known a few kids that were more clever than you might think. I also think you're considering only really weak examples of sarcasm. Yes, sarcasm can be really dumb, but it doesn't have to be.
    Name one child that has written a classic of satire.

    Just saying what the connoisseurs of wit, consider to be witty. And I have to agree with them, because I see why sarcasm is never very witty.

    As example of what I consider to be witty, although not exceptionally funny: Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

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    i think im too S to be able to deal with sarcasm. I CANNOT be sarcastic- it's impossible for me. i always say just kidding right after so i don't hurt the other person's feelings. My INTp friend is so sarcastic and it usually takes me a while for me to get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    Quote Originally Posted by Elro
    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    It doesn't really take any wit to, for example to say something is small when it's actually big, or just change the tone of your voice. The false assumption of being witty lies in that when there's someone even dumber, who doesn't get the sarcasm. Just because there's someone even dumber, doesn't make the person witty. Even children are sarcastic, however children don't do clever satire.
    It depends on the child, I'd say. I have known a few kids that were more clever than you might think. I also think you're considering only really weak examples of sarcasm. Yes, sarcasm can be really dumb, but it doesn't have to be.
    Name one child that has written a classic of satire.

    Just saying what the connoisseurs of wit, consider to be witty. And I have to agree with them, because I see why sarcasm is never very witty.

    As example of what I consider to be witty, although not exceptionally funny: Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum.
    True, but how often does satire come up in conversation?
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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    i think im too S to be able to deal with sarcasm. I CANNOT be sarcastic- it's impossible for me. i always say just kidding right after so i don't hurt the other person's feelings. My INTp friend is so sarcastic and it usually takes me a while for me to get it.
    Do you think it's typical of ESFp to be especially concerned about feelings that way? A friend I suspect is ESFp began to get really skittish when a couple of us began getting too negative/critical about some in our group (who weren't present). He chided us for being too mean! Strange. He can like crude insensitive "impersonal" humor but not sarcasm about real people.
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  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    i think im too S to be able to deal with sarcasm. I CANNOT be sarcastic- it's impossible for me. i always say just kidding right after so i don't hurt the other person's feelings. My INTp friend is so sarcastic and it usually takes me a while for me to get it.
    I knew an ESFp, who used that "just kidding" all the time. It was funny to turn it against her

    Like once she asked: What would you change in your appearance if you could?
    Me: Nothing, I'm perfect.
    - You're not perfect...just kidding.
    - I knew it, you think I'm perfect
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Satire is just the word Warlord is using to justify some sort of mental masturbation concerning his personal disagreement with sarcasm and irony in conversation. This may be due to some deficiency in the ability to have said conversation manifesting itself in over valuation of non-verbal means of communication.
    I have nothing against it. I use sarcasm all the time. I just don't consider it to be witty, because it's very easy come up with sarcastic comments. Coming up with something that's actually witty isn't that easy. And also I don't consider sarcasm particularry funny.

    Irony isn't same as sarcasm.

    And there's actually two lists where the types of humor are ranked types of humors based on the wittiness. The first one was composed in the 19th century, the second one is more recent. And the 19th century one has sarcasm in the bottom. That's where the saying comes from.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I'm still trying to figure out ST humor, lol.
    LSEs like dry witticisms. Consider this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion
    An anecdote has it that when Philip II sent a message to Sparta saying "If I enter Laconia I will level Sparta to the ground", the Spartans responded with the single, terse reply: "If".
    I love dark humour and black comedy. I'm an ST. For example, I watched a film once where these thieves forced a guy with diabetes to eat a giant lollipop. I found the concept hilarious.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    So sarcasm is the lowest of the low in literature.
    Then I must also be the lowest of the low because.. I find "The Importance of Being Earnest: A Trivial Comedy for Serious People" quite witty.
    Ah, Wilde... the Venerable Patron Saint of Wit!
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    This topic is getting boring to me to be honest (humor is better to use than to talk about directly, imo) but I will address your point one more time before I abandon this thread (if you reeeally want to continue you can PM me).

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    Name one child that has written a classic of satire.
    Writing a "classic" of satire is quite different from being capable of satirical thought. I don't think one can say (correctly, anyway) that children are incapable of satirical thought - some will probably develop it later than others. I remember being satirical quite often as a child... and getting pissed off at people underestimating children my age. Which is probably part of why I'm being stubborn on this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
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    Quote Originally Posted by aka-kitsune
    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive
    i think im too S to be able to deal with sarcasm. I CANNOT be sarcastic- it's impossible for me. i always say just kidding right after so i don't hurt the other person's feelings. My INTp friend is so sarcastic and it usually takes me a while for me to get it.
    Do you think it's typical of ESFp to be especially concerned about feelings that way? A friend I suspect is ESFp began to get really skittish when a couple of us began getting too negative/critical about some in our group (who weren't present). He chided us for being too mean! Strange. He can like crude insensitive "impersonal" humor but not sarcasm about real people.
    haha yeah it's really annoying idk what it is... im guessing it's the seriousness of the and the concreteness (i just made a word!) of
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