ISTjs cutting people off in conversations, no effort to include

[UDP]

You know why I talk about Beta's lack of team spirit sometimes?

ISTjs can cut you off completely when you are talking to someone, especially if it is someone they care about. It is like you aren't even a part of the picture, and it is extremely rude and frustrating. They make no effort to include you into anything at all, and it is a fight to even get your words spoken up sometimes.

It is such a power thing, and I always feel like on the verge of a conflict the longer I am around them - particularly the women.

Two separate ISTjs have done this, it is the same thing. It is totally unproductive.


How do betas deal with this and understand this type of interaction?

[ScarlettLux]

You're so off the mark it's not even funny anymore.

[UDP]

I'm not off the mark, SL

I'm talking about real life experiences.

So you are saying LSIs NEVER EVER do this?
I think you are too caught up in your romantic view of them to see anything wrong with them. You have never once taken me seriously when I list a flaw of them, and you always take it as an insult or something. Get real - every type has its bad qualities.

[FDG]

What the fuck are you talking about?

[PotatoSpirit]

ISTjs can cut you off completely when you are talking to someone, especially if it is someone they care about. It is like you aren't even a part of the picture, and it is extremely rude and frustrating.

I'd answer but I don't understand what you are saying.

[ScarlettLux]

I'm not off the mark, SL

I'm talking about real life experiences.

So you are saying LSIs NEVER EVER do this?
I think you are too caught up in your romantic view of them to see anything wrong with them. You have never once taken me seriously when I list a flaw of them, and you always take it as an insult or something. Get real - every type has its bad qualities.

Projection much? Look at your endless posts extolling the virtues of INFjs. Or the ones about ESFjs back when you were an INTj. Or even the ones you make about being LSE now. God, take a good hard look at how you come off to people!

You have said some really harsh things about LSIs that really have no basis whatsoever or relation to Socionics. Um, sure any type can do what you said in the first post. What is your point? Why do you keep saying stuff about them "lacking team spirit" ... I really have never seen this. I am too annoyed to post any further.

[Slacker]

I don't think I've ever had an ISTj cut me off when I was talking to someone. You mean like interrupt you? I can't say no ISTjs do this but I've worked very closely with two and now I'm volunteering for another one, so these are ISTjs I haven't been able to avoid, and while we've had problems, that isn't one of them.

I've always thought Betas were much more into the idea of team spirit than Deltas. But I think people of any type might interrupt and cut people off of conversations, and for any number of reasons.

[UDP]

I'm not off the mark, SL

I'm talking about real life experiences.

So you are saying LSIs NEVER EVER do this?
I think you are too caught up in your romantic view of them to see anything wrong with them. You have never once taken me seriously when I list a flaw of them, and you always take it as an insult or something. Get real - every type has its bad qualities.

Projection much? Look at your endless posts extolling the virtues of INFjs. Or the ones about ESFjs back when you were an INTj. Or even the ones you make about being LSE now. God, take a good hard look at how you come off to people!

You have said some really harsh things about LSIs that really have no basis whatsoever or relation to Socionics. Um, sure any type can do what you said in the first post. What is your point? Why do you keep saying stuff about them "lacking team spirit" ... I really have never seen this. I am too annoyed to post any further.

You haven't answered my question.

Obviously I am not as concerned about my image as you are. But what does that have to do with answering the question?
It sounds more like you are talking about your baggage than the actual topic I brought up.

This thread makes it sound like no one has ever seen an ISTj be abrupt or short with someone. You can't be serious about this.


And finally, I'll write negative stuff about anyone I want, regardless of quadra or type.
ESTp, INFp, ESFp, INTp, INFj (INFj uncovered, remember that?), INTjs, ISTj - to name a few. Who do you want me to speak negatively of next? It doesn't bother me.

[UDP]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Shut up and fucking read what I have to say
(Is that how you want me to talk to you, FDG?)



I am talking about when an ISTj is obviously close to someone, and you are working in a team setting. The ISTj constantly refers to the other person, and your input is minimal in the situation. How do you go about this? When I try to interject or say something, they just keep talking through it. This has happened at least two times in two different situations with two different people. It is a possessiveness thing.

Forget I used the word "team spirit" - apparently that gets everyone's panties bunched.

What I am getting at is how do you go about proper communication, especially to the ISTj's close friend? It is like you have to wait endlessly for them to finish whatever thing they are talking about -- which could be complete gossip. They seem to do this because they want to exert that they are higher on the totem poll than you are, making you wait. OR, should I just bitch them out and say "look, I have something important to say, listen!". It is has been very difficult to hold back so far and I always feel like we are on the verge of a conflict.

Related to the totem poll bit, the ISTj expresses their opinion on something -- "Well, I don't think it should be this way!" like it really matters. What's worse, the ISTj's friend, who is also our superior, never, in any way, does anything about it. She completely accepts it. She might be Fe creative or INFj, definitely IXFX, with low Se. So its like, the ISTj basically is given full right to dominate the situation, and it is extremely annoying.


So how, in terms of effective communication amongst team members, do you go about dealing with the ISTj in this situation?

[UDP]

Um, sure any type can do what you said in the first post. What is your point?

My point is, do you have an advice for how to work with ISTjs?
Not every type is beta, not every type is Se creative, not every type is Ti dominant and Fe dual seeking, and so on.
Do you have any advice that works specifically well for interacting with ISTjs, that might help this situation - that is my point, my question.

[FDG]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Shut up and fucking read what I have to say
(Is that how you want me to talk to you, FDG?)



I am talking about when an ISTj is obviously close to someone, and you are working in a team setting. The ISTj constantly refers to the other person, and your input is minimal in the situation. How do you go about this? When I try to interject or say something, they just keep talking through it. This has happened at least two times in two different situations with two different people. It is a possessiveness thing.

Forget I used the word "team spirit" - apparently that gets everyone's panties bunched.

What I am getting at is how do you go about proper communication, especially to the ISTj's close friend? It is like you have to wait endlessly for them to finish whatever thing they are talking about -- which could be complete gossip. They seem to do this because they want to exert that they are higher on the totem poll than you are, making you wait. OR, should I just bitch them out and say "look, I have something important to say, listen!". It is has been very difficult to hold back so far and I always feel like we are on the verge of a conflict.

Related to the totem poll bit, the ISTj expresses their opinion on something -- "Well, I don't think it should be this way!" like it really matters. What's worse, the ISTj's friend, who is also our superior, never, in any way, does anything about it. She completely accepts it. She might be Fe creative or INFj, definitely IXFX, with low Se. So its like, the ISTj basically is given full right to dominate the situation, and it is extremely annoying.


So how, in terms of effective communication amongst team members, do you go about dealing with the ISTj in this situation?

I don't see what's the problem if they prefer to talk to somebody else rather than you.

[UDP]

You're missing the point entirely.
We're on the same damn team, and we have to exchange information!
But instead I'm being, essentially, cock blocked by someone who wants to shield me from talking to someone else.



Maybe -- maybe the ISTj thinks I'm trying to hit on or warm up to its friend. Hm.
The point is - this isn't just someone 'not wanting to talk with me',
it is someone (who happens to be ISTj), that is blocking me from talking to itself, and another important person on our team, from communicating things that are important to our job. That is why I don't like the situation.

I could care less if it is two people having a friendly conversation - I am not going to interrupt them, I don't care. But when there's something that needs to be said or discussed, these power games or whatever are totally foolish.


The ISTj that did this before tried, essentially, to make it seem like I was not there, or I was not a factor. She tried, literally, to convince the other person that I was not here right now. It is such a power thing, and it is like they just want to establish control over other people - there was no other point to it, in that first situation. I wonder if that is basically what the ISTj was trying to do in this latest situation, as well.

[Slacker]

Oh well now I have seen ISTjs do a bit of "empire building" at work when in unusual circumstances. One ISTj I worked with told me that if I talked to one particular person without going through her she'd see to it that I got fired for something or another, even if she had to make something up. But she had serious personal problems in her life at the time - her husband was talking about leaving her - and she was worried about her ability to support herself if something happened at work. People of any type who are in a situation like that will go into survival mode and do whatever they have to do to keep their jobs and make sure they have lots of job security. The creative Se might make ISTjs better at it if they're in a situation like that. Or maybe they just scare me more when they do it. She would also go in and change computer passwords that several people in the office needed to know so that she couldn't be fired without some notice because, of course, we'd need the passwords. She ended up getting fired for changing the passwords. Irony. But I can't imagine the ISTj I'm working with now doing anything like that. There are going to be nice and not nice, healthy and unhealthy, people of all types.

The other ISTj I worked with did what felt to me like empire building too, but looking back with the knowledge I have now, that was probably just my interpretation of what happened. I wish I'd read about Socionics before I got into that work situation because it might have helped. She just liked working and being on top of things and having things organized how she liked, so she'd want to be in charge of one thing after another so she could make sure it was done "properly", but it seemed arbitrary and like a big waste of time to me. At the time it drove me crazy, but now I can see that she really just did want things done how she considered to be properly, and the fact that it wasn't a priority to me doesn't mean it wasn't a worthwhile goal.

So, I think this ISTj you're working with is insecure, and you are somehow involved in that insecurity. Whatever is happening is probably both of your fault because disputes usually are, and you can't change her, so you'd be better off figuring out what you're doing that's making her insecure and see if you can change that. Otherwise you might as well just bang your head up against a wall.

[liveandletlive]

You know why I talk about Beta's lack of team spirit sometimes?

ISTjs can cut you off completely when you are talking to someone, especially if it is someone they care about. It is like you aren't even a part of the picture, and it is extremely rude and frustrating. They make no effort to include you into anything at all, and it is a fight to even get your words spoken up sometimes.

It is such a power thing, and I always feel like on the verge of a conflict the longer I am around them - particularly the women.

Two separate ISTjs have done this, it is the same thing. It is totally unproductive.


How do betas deal with this and understand this type of interaction?

i agree... why do they do this? is it because of power?

[UDP]

Oh well now I have seen ISTjs do a bit of "empire building" at work when in unusual circumstances. One ISTj I worked with told me that if I talked to one particular person without going through her she'd see to it that I got fired for something or another, even if she had to make something up. But she had serious personal problems in her life at the time - her husband was talking about leaving her - and she was worried about her ability to support herself if something happened at work. People of any type who are in a situation like that will go into survival mode and do whatever they have to do to keep their jobs and make sure they have lots of job security. The creative Se might make ISTjs better at it if they're in a situation like that. Or maybe they just scare me more when they do it. She would also go in and change computer passwords that several people in the office needed to know so that she couldn't be fired without some notice because, of course, we'd need the passwords. She ended up getting fired for changing the passwords. Irony. But I can't imagine the ISTj I'm working with now doing anything like that. There are going to be nice and not nice, healthy and unhealthy, people of all types.

Yes, there are going to be nice, healthy people. I don't have problems with them, though.

She would also go in and change computer passwords that several people in the office needed to know so that she couldn't be fired without some notice because, of course, we'd need the passwords. She ended up getting fired for changing the passwords.

She damn well better have. That is totally unacceptable, unprofessional, and it jeopardizes what the entire organization is trying to do. I hate things like that. If you've got personal issues handle them on your own time, don't ruin everything for everyone else just because you're having a bad day or a bad time in your life. It is totally selfish. -- and no, that has nothing to do with anyone's psychological type, it is a general statement.

The other ISTj I worked with did what felt to me like empire building too, but looking back with the knowledge I have now, that was probably just my interpretation of what happened. I wish I'd read about Socionics before I got into that work situation because it might have helped. She just liked working and being on top of things and having things organized how she liked, so she'd want to be in charge of one thing after another so she could make sure it was done "properly", but it seemed arbitrary and like a big waste of time to me. At the time it drove me crazy, but now I can see that she really just did want things done how she considered to be properly, and the fact that it wasn't a priority to me doesn't mean it wasn't a worthwhile goal.

But they use this to steal power from other people. "LET me do that for you, hun...."
What it is saying, is, I'm going to put you out of your job. They do this so much, even in a "team setting" that it is like you have to fight vigorously just to do something. It is typical of some ISTjs (which are negative, unhealthy, and IME) to put it in a situation where the only way you get any input is if you make a huge scene. They almost use Fe to "block you", saying, unless you are willing to make a huge scene, then I'm going to do whatever I want (to my benefit). I can't stand that.

So, I think this ISTj you're working with is insecure, and you are somehow involved in that insecurity. Whatever is happening is probably both of your fault because disputes usually are, and you can't change her, so you'd be better off figuring out what you're doing that's making her insecure and see if you can change that. Otherwise you might as well just bang your head up against a wall.

It could just be that she is concerned about me stealing the friend away from her.
That individual definitely is insecure. That is why they have to use all the time.
I cannot tell if the ISTj's friend realizes that I am being courteous towards her, of if she doesn't.
I am definitely going out of my way to make things go smoothly, but I have a feeling a throwdown is inevitable.


I will say, comparing the two incidents in regards to ISTjs, the first one had to do with me taking time away from, or coming between, the ISTj and someone it was close to in the first place. Perhaps that is ultimately what is going on here.

[Blaze]

Um, sure any type can do what you said in the first post. What is your point?

My point is, do you have an advice for how to work with ISTjs?
Not every type is beta, not every type is Se creative, not every type is Ti dominant and Fe dual seeking, and so on.
Do you have any advice that works specifically well for interacting with ISTjs, that might help this situation - that is my point, my question.

how to work with istj's: get with their Ti. period. data, analysis. appreciate their Se....they really are quite creative when it comes to power games.

having said that i have not at all found that they interrupt or won't listen. they seem like some of the best listeners around. they kind of are constantly absorbing everything around them and classifying stuff.

despite the reputation of supervision, i find i get along with them very well. i think i said in another thread, they make my Ne/Ti vortex go away with one small gesture or comment that makes my overblown exaggerated idea seem little and stupid. hahahaha. and this is a good thing when my mind will not turn off and starts to go in vicious circles.

[PotatoSpirit]

Ok, now I understand what you are saying a little better (c:

I can be very dismissive of other people's ideas and comments. After someone says things I consider useless for a while, I will stop trying to find meaning in what he's saying, and ignore him, I just don't have the patience. I guess this could be taken as far as trying to prevent him from talking, to avoid being exposed to unpleasant blubber.
Two other possible explanations: 1) you categorize assholes as ISTj. 2) You have been unlucky enough to only meet ISTj assholes.
I read somewhere that in these relations the extrovert can feel sabotaged, and I have seen this to be very true.

Preventing people from "stealing" friendship, or interacting with a friend seems totally foreign to me.

As far as advice goes, I have no idea... maybe you can try to use your Fe role? Or you could try some self-irony.

i agree... why do they do this? is it because of power?

Strangely enough I tend to be dismissive of my ESFp friend's remarks too sometimes )c:

despite the reputation of supervision, i find i get along with them very well.

I was going to make a post about this... I seem to love ENTps... how is that possible?

[liveandletlive]

that's the definition of the supervision relationship- you like them more than they like you... thats y i think u guys are the shit and you guys think we're dumb

[UDP]

To clarify: I am not saying ALL ISTjs ARE THIS WAY!
I am asking how to deal with this certain problem which has come up with two ISTjs
I know ISTjs who are great and respectable, courteous, etc. Not all assholes are ISTj - that is not the point.

[Blaze]

that's the definition of the supervision relationship- you like them more than they like you... thats y i think u guys are the shit and you guys think we're dumb

yeah but i like istj's, too. they're fun, considerate, practical. *shrugs* go figure.

[FDG]

Never had such problems with any ISTj I've known. Maybe your comments are stupid, Courage?

Oh nevermind. I know one that is a bit like that, because he's the chief of the school council. He won't really listen to you if you are "lower rank". However, when pwned once or twice in conversation, he'll start being more reasonable (once he sees that your ability to think logically is at least as good as his).

[UDP]

Well said.

[UDP]

Well said.

[PotatoSpirit]

I'll give it one more shot. _If_ being dismissive is an ISTj trait (as opposed to Potato's personal trait), and you understand why you might be in this particular ISTj's list of people not include in conversations, you might be able to come up with a solution.

You have answered to only one line of my post... that would piss me off IRL, and might be a reason to try and shut you off.

To clarify: I am not saying ALL ISTjs ARE THIS WAY!

I said: "maybe you consider A a subset of B", and you answered "I'm not saying that B is a subset of A"... so you didn't understand it, why talk with you at all?

I am asking how to deal with this certain problem which has come up with two ISTjs

As far as advice goes, I have no idea... maybe you can try to use your Fe role? Or you could try some self-irony.

I realize it is an incomplete answer, but it's all I've got... why do you feel the need to repeat your demand? I'd remember what you asked IRL, and I can even read your previous posts as many times as I want. Another reason to try and limit the amount of time used for your communication.

I know ISTjs who are great and respectable, courteous, etc. Not all assholes are ISTj - that is not the point.

And finally, this would bother me too IRL... I offered "you have been unlucky enough to only meet ISTj assholes" as a possibility, in half a line of my post, you saying "that is not the point" implies that my whole post was about that, which in turn makes it seem useless to communicate with you.

[guest32456]

She damn well better have. That is totally unacceptable, unprofessional, and it jeopardizes what the entire organization is trying to do. I hate things like that. If you've got personal issues handle them on your own time, don't ruin everything for everyone else just because you're having a bad day or a bad time in your life. It is totally selfish. -- and no, that has nothing to do with anyone's psychological type, it is a general statement.

Although I, at least partially, agree with you, I would say that having an emotional response (i.e. getting annoyed, "I hate things like that") would not help in this situation.

So be calm, master yourself, use this as a learning opportunity.

Good luck,

[mustachio]

Courage, seems to me like you're having a crisis in leadership. you obviously want to lead but are twarted by a headstrong ISTj. the best advice i can give is to work alongside the LSI. as Blaze said use your logic. don't go into sentimentality with them. try to be effective or propose very effective measures and you'll gain their respect. but it sounds like you've already lost the leadership role so forget about that. but, at one point or another they'll need your input. at that moment, be ready to subtly take over your natural position.

[UDP]

I think what the ISTj doesn't like is that I automatically gravitate towards the leadership position regardless of whatever formal rank I am given, simply because if the need is there I go to it. I would not say I have "lost" anything, because I am not at a "formal rank" above the ISTj so to say. But I can see how they take my automatic assertion and initiative as threatening or encroaching.

but it sounds like you've already lost the leadership role so forget about that.

To clarify, we are both subordinates of the president of the organization. Based on the ISTjs position she is more involved with the deeper workings of the program, but also certainly because the ISTj and the president are very close friends. So, I have not lost a leadership role, if anything, I am not being a good little henchmen and shutting and and staying quiet until I am told to do something, and as such the ISTj does not feel comfortable -- that is what it is like for my perspective at least.


@potatoS

And finally, this would bother me too IRL... I offered "you have been unlucky enough to only meet ISTj assholes" as a possibility, in half a line of my post, you saying "that is not the point" implies that my whole post was about that, which in turn makes it seem useless to communicate with you.

(First, that post was not a direct response to you, but rather, a general statement)

Mhm. Clearly, ISTjs expect everyone to be an uber-conscientious and always polite ENFj.
Guess what - I'm not one of them

(ISTjs seem to love to argue about hairsplitting the little words and formulations people say - that is a definite ISTj trait ((repeatedly confirmed by real life experience)). Apparently ENFjs and ISTjs love to argue about this, escalate, and then feel closer together afterwards. To me it is just a waste of time.)

....but I suppose for the sake of making our team run as efficiently as possible, I will have to learn how to act more like their dual. I know I will run into ISTjs later on in life, so it will be a useful trait to learn.

So be calm, master yourself, use this as a learning opportunity.

I will keep that in mind.