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Thread: INFj-ESTj dual relations discussion (EII-LSE)

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    Default INFj-ESTj dual relations discussion (EII-LSE)

    First question:


    For EIIs - what is it you think you are looking for from LSEs? What do you like that they provide, and what do you think you can help them with in terms of a relationship? What do you look for from LSEs that you don't find anywhere else, so to say? Or any other related comments.


    I'll respond to this from the LSE perspective in a bit.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    I can't and don't really want to respond to this question comprehensively. But I'll give you a small answer, I guess.

    I think I might need somebody to make sure I stay alive and in reasonably good circumstances. I've never really been completely alone or without some one to care about me, but, knowing myself as I do, if I were to be cast into the cruel, cold world to survive on my own with no prior connections I think I could do it. Survive, that is. Not prosper, unless I got really, unavoidably lucky. And even then I'd probably miss my opportunity simply because I didn't recognize it or push myself to take it. Or forgot about it.

    To give you an example of this, just the other day one of the ladies who handles the paperwork where I work came up to me as I was going about my duties, handed me an envelope (my paycheck), and said, "Were you ever going to ask me for this?"

    I'd quite forgotten about it - not just asking, but that I'd be getting any money. My first thought was, "Oh, hey, look - I can pay that bill that came this morning. ... Ooh, I wonder how much they're giving me?" And then I stuck it in my bag and promptly forgot about it until just now.

    So, I'd probably survive but I wouldn't get much farther than that. Making sure practical things happen (like getting a paycheck) isn't one of my strong points and something that I'd appreciate in a friend or partner. (I should add that this is simply one of my own personal shortcomings. I don't know if other EIIs have these problems, too.)

    I also like when people tell me about things I want to know about and explain them to me so I understand. But not just tell me any old thing, but stuff that's true and applicable and potentially useful.

    As far as what I could offer a LSE...? I've actually wondered that for awhile. I consider myself quite useless in many respects. Hm... I get along with people, for the most part, and have the ability to make people like me or at least tolerate me. Very few people actively wish me harm, that I know of. So I guess I could offer that - helping smooth relations and encouraging people to like and cooperate with the LSE. Maybe I could also offer insight into how people react and might react to things, or give rules of thumb to operate on in terms of interacting with people, though I suppose anybody with intelligence could figure that out for themselves.

    I might also be a source of amusement or entertainment, though I consider myself quite a boring person.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    As far as what I could offer a LSE...? I've actually wondered that for awhile. I consider myself quite useless in many respects.
    If you want the LSE perspective, just change that to EII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I think I might need somebody to make sure I stay alive and in reasonably good circumstances.
    Minde, I hope this doesn't sound mean to you but I am curious as to what exactly makes you think that you are needy of or somehow unable to stay alive and be in reasonable good circumstances without someone to do that for you. With me it is just a personal thing where I feel I could benefit from another person's qualities, support and wisedom but I have long made quite sure that I am not dependent or reliant on anyone to keep me alive, keep me in reasonably circumstances or even to make progress. I have always imagined that most adults who are not physically or mentally disabled could do the same. Believe me when I tell you that I really do not understand why you have come to the view above.


    I've never really been completely alone or without some one to care about me, but, knowing myself as I do, if I were to be cast into the cruel, cold world to survive on my own with no prior connections I think I could do it. Survive, that is. Not prosper, unless I got really, unavoidably lucky. And even then I'd probably miss my opportunity simply because I didn't recognize it or push myself to take it. Or forgot about it.
    I somehow can't help but feel even more confused. Maybe it is the way I am interpreting what you have written.

    Anyway, I trust that you would eventually have remembered your pay check. Bills and life requirements does eventually force most people to remember it I think.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    @Minde: wow. I can relate to what you have described.

    The ESTjs seem to have everything in life and I feel that I need them more than they need me. Sometimes I wonder what will they like me for when there are other girls who are more active, sociable, well-groomed, fun-loving and better in sports than me (eg. the ESFxs) who are attracted to them. Whenever I think of the ESTj I'm currently admiring, I will be like, "He will never consider someone like me because my life isn't as interesting as his. He needs someone who can organize social functions, is successful with small talks and makes a lot of social contacts easily for his career advancement. I don't see why someone so busy would bother to take the time to take care of me since I consider myself hopeless with practical matters." That's why I feel there's absolutely no reason for ESTj to benefit from me. In regards to the ESTj-INFj dual general description, what the INFj can provide can easily be done by any type imo. Everyone has the capability to be caring, understanding, emphatic, supportive, a good listener etc. All these don't require much skills to acquire, seriously.

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    INFjs are overlooking their best and strongest quality, but I suppose that is not unexpected.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I think I might need somebody to make sure I stay alive and in reasonably good circumstances.
    Minde, I hope this doesn't sound mean to you but I am curious as to what exactly makes you think that you are needy of or somehow unable to stay alive and be in reasonable good circumstances without someone to do that for you. With me it is just a personal thing where I feel I could benefit from another person's qualities, support and wisedom but I have long made quite sure that I am not dependent or reliant on anyone to keep me alive, keep me in reasonably circumstances or even to make progress. I have always imagined that most adults who are not physically or mentally disabled could do the same. Believe me when I tell you that I really do not understand why you have come to the view above.


    I've never really been completely alone or without some one to care about me, but, knowing myself as I do, if I were to be cast into the cruel, cold world to survive on my own with no prior connections I think I could do it. Survive, that is. Not prosper, unless I got really, unavoidably lucky. And even then I'd probably miss my opportunity simply because I didn't recognize it or push myself to take it. Or forgot about it.
    I somehow can't help but feel even more confused. Maybe it is the way I am interpreting what you have written.

    Anyway, I trust that you would eventually have remembered your pay check. Bills and life requirements does eventually force most people to remember it I think.
    I can see how what I said can make me seem weak, dependent, and perhaps even lazy. Perhaps I am... but I don't think so, at least I hope not. I think it may have to do with standards and priorities. As long as I'm healthy, have enough food, clothing, and shelter, I can be pretty content, at least in terms of physical needs. Sure, more than that is great, and I might even work in that direction, but it's not something I place a high priority on. To me, there are more important things, like people. Or learning. Or beauty. But especially people.

    If I stop myself and think about it, yeah, doing the practical stuff is important. I mean, one has to be alive in order to enjoy life. And I do it. I can do the necessary stuff reasonably well, too. It's just not something I'm naturally inclined to think about or do. Which is what my story about the paycheck was supposed to demonstrate. Like, when it took place, I was in the middle of teaching a room of kids how to paint landscapes. I was thoroughly engrossed in that. Each child has their own project, their own needs, their own story, and I had to become a part of that and give to them of myself what they needed. That job and, more specifically, those kids are important to me. I want to give them the best that I can. So, wisely or not, they took precedence in my thoughts, to the neglect of other (more important?) things, like money.

    Another way to think of it - Currently, I live in a household where we all pitch in and help to keep the house running. It's kind of worked out that people tend to take on what they're best at or most willing to do. It's a division of labor. So, yes, while I depend on someone else to, say, mow the lawn, everyone else depends on me to, say, wash the dishes. And I kind of like it that way. It's a very... connected, loving way to live. If it makes me weak, well, then, I guess I'd rather be weak and happy than strong and lonely. Not that being strong necessarily makes one lonely, just that if I tried to do everything myself I'd lose that unique way to give and receive love and companionship.

    I should also mention that, oddly, I'm much more inclined to be practical when I'm taking care of someone else, especially kids. Or, at least, I'm more inclined to think about those things and place greater importance on them.

    Hm, did that address any of your confusion?


    Quote Originally Posted by aut0
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    As far as what I could offer a LSE...? I've actually wondered that for awhile. I consider myself quite useless in many respects.
    If you want the LSE perspective, just change that to EII.
    That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. Don't you remember the story about your roomie and the lamp? Who was the more useful one in that situation? Who had it together and knew what he was doing? Hm, wait, let's think about this... Oh, yes! It was you.

    And I bet there are a million other examples and anecdotes wherein we could come to the same conclusion.


    If this is a useless contest, I win.


    @Eunice: Yep.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I think I might need somebody to make sure I stay alive and in reasonably good circumstances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I've never really been completely alone or without some one to care about me, but, knowing myself as I do, if I were to be cast into the cruel, cold world to survive on my own with no prior connections I think I could do it. Survive, that is. Not prosper, unless I got really, unavoidably lucky. And even then I'd probably miss my opportunity simply because I didn't recognize it or push myself to take it. Or forgot about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    I can see how what I said can make me seem weak, dependent, and perhaps even lazy. Perhaps I am... but I don't think so, at least I hope not.
    Well I hope you are not either, I somehow doubt that you are. I did not really read weakness into what you said and we are all more or less weak in certain things anyway. It did sound more dependent than I would like myself or even my sister to be but you have different values from myself to state the obvious.

    I think it may have to do with standards and priorities. As long as I'm healthy, have enough food, clothing, and shelter, I can be pretty content, at least in terms of physical needs. Sure, more than that is great, and I might even work in that direction, but it's not something I place a high priority on.
    This part I understand very well.


    Another way to think of it - Currently, I live in a household where we all pitch in and help to keep the house running. It's kind of worked out that people tend to take on what they're best at or most willing to do. It's a division of labor. So, yes, while I depend on someone else to, say, mow the lawn, everyone else depends on me to, say, wash the dishes. And I kind of like it that way. It's a very... connected, loving way to live. If it makes me weak, well, then, I guess I'd rather be weak and happy than strong and lonely.
    What you have described here is something different from saying that you need someone to make sure you stay alive. Interaction, connection and co-operation with others is very different from neediness and dependence (at least in my mind).

    I honestly do not know which is best, To be weak and happy or sad and lonely. I know which one of those options I would chose but the situation of co-operation and task sharing you just described does not sound like weakness or even dependence.

    Not that being strong necessarily makes one lonely, just that if I tried to do everything myself I'd lose that unique way to give and receive love and companionship.
    Interesting.

    Hm, did that address any of your confusion?
    Yes, it did, thanks Minde.
    Socionics: XNFx
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice
    In regards to the ESTj-INFj dual general description, what the INFj can provide can easily be done by any type imo. Everyone has the capability to be caring, understanding, emphatic, supportive, a good listener etc. All these don't require much skills to acquire, seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Courage
    INFjs are overlooking their best and strongest quality, but I suppose that is not unexpected.
    I agree with Courage here. I personally couldn't be any of those things for an extended period of time. If I consider the people around me they generally fail almost as badly. Actually I'm not sure if all the INFjs can deliver those things day in day out. Anyways this seems to be a case where someone takes their leading function(s) for granted because they are such an automated function for them. I wonder if that is a PoLR hit for Fi-PoLR types. "It doesn't really require that much from you to be caring, understanding, emphatic and supportive. Seriously. How can you fail in these things? They are so easy to deliver.".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde

    Quote Originally Posted by aut0
    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    As far as what I could offer a LSE...? I've actually wondered that for awhile. I consider myself quite useless in many respects.
    If you want the LSE perspective, just change that to EII.
    That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. Don't you remember the story about your roomie and the lamp? Who was the more useful one in that situation? Who had it together and knew what he was doing? Hm, wait, let's think about this... Oh, yes! It was you.

    And I bet there are a million other examples and anecdotes wherein we could come to the same conclusion.


    If this is a useless contest, I win.


    @Eunice: Yep.
    That went right over your head

    The idea is that we take our strong functions for granted, the things I'm good at I don't think are special, I assume everyone else can do it too, so when I get something from my dual I feel bad cause I can't offer them anything like they can offer me, except the dual probably feels the same way in terms of what I offer them (at least I'd hope).

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aut0
    That went right over your head

    The idea is that we take our strong functions for granted, the things I'm good at I don't think are special, I assume everyone else can do it too, so when I get something from my dual I feel bad cause I can't offer them anything like they can offer me, except the dual probably feels the same way in terms of what I offer them (at least I'd hope).
    No, I got you the first time. I just don't entirely believe you. So, what is it you think you get from your duals that you can't get elsewhere?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Quote Originally Posted by aut0
    That went right over your head

    The idea is that we take our strong functions for granted, the things I'm good at I don't think are special, I assume everyone else can do it too, so when I get something from my dual I feel bad cause I can't offer them anything like they can offer me, except the dual probably feels the same way in terms of what I offer them (at least I'd hope).
    No, I got you the first time. I just don't entirely believe you. So, what is it you think you get from your duals that you can't get elsewhere?
    Are you kidding? I want my dual to protect me. Toss me in the woods and I'll figure out how to find my way back (or get eaten by a bear ), but ask me about personal relationships or emotions and I'll shut down. I need someone who can take care of those things for me. I've always been attracted to ESFJs, they're gorgeous, but it's like we're butting heads, I can't ever be sure that they're going to protect me.

    Oh yeah! Duals are really good at giving ideas or alternative solutions that I can't see on my own.

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    Everyone has the capability to be caring, understanding, emphatic, supportive, a good listener etc. All these don't require much skills to acquire, seriously.
    You have not been around many people, have you? Especially when you get out in the real world, there are not that many, unless you are fortunate enough to live in an extremely caring community. Even then I would consider that being sheltered. But as I said, INFjs in particular don't seem to understand what their strengths are, or show adequate appreciation and respect for them.

    They often let their negative self image......
    That's why I feel there's absolutely no reason for ESTj to benefit from me. In regards to the ESTj-INFj dual general description, what the INFj can provide can easily be done by any type imo.
    ...get in the way.

    In a way I almost suspect they try to avoid their strengths because that way, when they fail or falter, it is nothing unexpected. So on some ways I definitely feel like I have to challenge INFjs to get passed this. I suppose one thing I would give to an INFj is a sort of inherent confidence in that way - expecting certain things, being determined to succeed, but also the know-how to actually do what it takes to make all of that happen.



    Whenever I think of the ESTj I'm currently admiring, I will be like, "He will never consider someone like me because my life isn't as interesting as his. He needs someone who can organize social functions 1, is successful with small talks 2 and makes a lot of social contacts easily for his career advancement 3. I don't see why someone so busy would bother to take the time to take care of me since I consider myself hopeless with practical matters.4"
    Understandably you are an infantile erotic role, and I know a few INFjs who give off the aura exactly as you do. They probably are more Ne subtypes, although the Fi subtypes might just cover it up more. The vibe they give off is related to what I said in the last paragraph.

    As for the actual validity of that statement.....
    (1) I don't enjoy social functions much
    (2) I certainly don't enjoy small talk, and do not want anyone to help me get better at it
    (3) I make the contacts I need on my own. (This points to something I'll bring up later about the EII's greatest strength)
    (4) An LSE automatically takes care of things. What it is looking for is someone who will actually appreciate this. See how much reverence you are showing already? That is actually really appealing to an LSE, because, so much of the work it does often seems like it is very under appreciated, or that no one cares. And as a caregiver, doing something for someone or something is inherently rewarding to them.



    So what is the INFj strength being overlooked here? Ethical consistency, stability, loyalty, general consistency.

    (Socionically speaking, remember the Ni polr of an LSE. Someone who is ethical, and consistent about it, is therefore amazingly stress-relieving.)

    INFjs consistently give off the aura of a safe harbor in a very tumultuous see of life. They are soft and delicate, yes, but I don't mind protecting them at all - I rather enjoy it. I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but, EIIs are safe, and easy. To use socionics terminology, when they present clearly their Fi system of right and wrong, it just makes everything easier, because I can (feel like I am) more accurately gaging how I am interacting with that person. It makes it easy for me to tell if what I am saying or doing is positive or not. And I am sure that is completely foreign to EIIs, but try to understand where I am coming from as Fi dual seeking.

    Another major thing for me is just the sheer character of EIIs. I have a hard time trusting anyone, but, EIIs (can, not all of them of course) give off a total aura of character. It is easy to spot. It is something I respect a lot and try to work towards myself, and seeing it in someone who is so concerned with ethical things, morality, and as such does have a great character, it definitely makes me want to support them. It is welcoming, and few people are that way. Again with socionics terms: Aristocratically speaking, seeing qualities I value in other people are things I try to support and promote, so being friends with people like that comes more easily.

    Everyone has the capability to be caring, understanding, emphatic, supportive, a good listener etc. All these don't require much skills to acquire, seriously.
    Going back to this quote -- that is just not true. Ultimately everyone has that capability, yes, but is everyone really that way? Absolutely not.


    Oh yes, one of the most important things about EIIs, and something I always wanted and generally find in them...
    (NOTE: This topic is very much something I could not find with ESEs, and that is why I am sure I am not an LII and have them as a dual)
    mental/intellectual connection. When I talk to EIIs it is almost always right there, immediately. ESEs, hardly ever. They are too lightweight and flutter, and it is hard for me to take them seriously.

    But with EIIs, whenever the topic changes to something serious, or something spiritual, or something of depth, it is like both our eyes light up (so to say). It is right there, and it is a connection I generally only can make with EIIs. I have made it with one ISFp and one ESFj, but it is much harder for me to take it seriously because of how they conduct themselves in a general sense. (Not that they have bad habits, but just a general unseriousness, a general non-delta flair). So, I know the connection can be had with other people, but, it does not seem like something that has to be 'discovered' so much with EIIs, of figured out as a hidden bonus - it is right there. And I know this is all very vague talk, but, it is very apparent to me.

    A lot of people turn me away or tune out when I talk about something serious, but INFjs generally do not if they can afford the time. Some even appear to appreciate it at times. And that is nice, because I enjoy people who take things as seriously as I do. Or at least, those who don't mind my serious nature.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aut0
    I've always been attracted to ESFJs, and they're gorgeous, but it's like we're butting heads, I can't ever be sure that they're going to protect me.
    Protect?

    Hm. I relate very much to the butting heads thing, because their take on Si is via Fe, and mine is Te. (They also hardly give off a serious vibe)

    Protection... what that means to me in terms of an INFj is their ability to protect our relationship.
    "I need someone who can take care of those things for me." - I feel the same way.
    Someone to remind me that people are 'human beings' and not machines is helpful, too.
    And also, when I do express my own ethical ideals or wonderings, they are receptive to it, whether other people have a tendency to shoot me down (mostly because they are badly formulated).
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Courage
    Everyone has the capability to be caring, understanding, emphatic, supportive, a good listener etc. All these don't require much skills to acquire, seriously.
    You have not been around many people, have you? Especially when you get out in the real world, there are not that many, unless you are fortunate enough to live in an extremely caring community. Even then I would consider that being sheltered.
    bullshit... it all depends on how negatively you're looking at your fellow man. Perhaps they don't live up to your impossible standards but people are generally good when it comes down to it. The shitty ones are definately the exception no matter where you live.

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    I was looking the LSE strati profile, block:


    Block ID * the eighth position * demonstrative function * "volitional sensorika"
    Constantly and everywhere, apropos and without the visible reasons For shtirlits is expressed the readiness to give the volitional rebuff to anyone who although by anything it will catch. Constantly demonstrates skill, ability and readiness to postoyat' for itself.

    This ability realizes in Shtirlitsa subconsiously and at every turn it is manifested in its behavior.

    Independent of mood and state of any of the representatives of this type speaks with the constant, exaggerated by pressure in the voice, with the arrangement and the accentuation almost each its word, as if he wants to emphasize its special significance.

    Always sharp and napr4jenno- angular in the motions. Only closest people can see them with those weakened.

    In view of constant stress, which is very rapidly transferred by that surrounding, contact with Shtirlitsami by many will seem by unpleasant and tiresome. But this in no way relates to its dualu to Dostoyevsky. The tension of its Shtirlitsa only pleasantly tones up - it derives from usual that weakened and as- as if the unscrewed state, it makes it necessary to be gathered with the forces, it will mobilize its will and energy.

    Will and purposefulness Of shtirlitsa also bear demonstrative nature. For edifying purposes Of shtirlits it knows how to show an example of that how it is necessary to postoyat' for itself. But will first attack not be never - perhaps that on the misunderstanding.

    Resoluteness manifests only in the interests of the matter, in the plan of the protection of personal interests and interests of "its command".

    Purposefulness -only within the framework of expediency as the form of the realization of its own creative potential. Shtirlitsy are not capable "of working by elbows" and "of rise along the corpses" for achievement of their purpose. Therefore a question of self assertion of its own ambitions also little disturbs them - they never seize authority, but they come to it by the will of voters, and their right to control and management they magnificently prove by the honest and selfless labor.

    Exceptionally hardy and hardy people. Is created impression, that overcoming difficulties for them the natural and optimum form of existence:

    they work on nineteen it is hour in a 24 hour period, it is always energetic, active, to the deep old age they preserve high vital tone and external attractiveness.

    Emphasized are neat, accurate, organizovanny, distsiplinirovanny. They are considered conveniences in those surrounding. They try not to cause no one troubles and not to reach inconveniences. Their problems decide only by their own forces - what them this not cost.

    Shtirlits - innate leader and, as a rule, splendid leader. It does not fear to take the great responsibility upon itself and is not attempted to shift its responsibilities on others. The burden of everyday interests pulls without any objection, however heavily it was.

    It surrounds its partner by most thorough concern and guardianship, combining its family responsibilities with the professional and public activity. And if the partner Of shtirlitsa is his dual Dostoyevsky, the spent efforts worthily and entirely reward.

    Comments?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    The LSE block and EII block parts of those profiles go well together, so you can compare the two to try and grok the full meaning:

    Dostoyevsky attaches special importance to the circumstances of time, since subconsiously he is called "to attend" the weak intuition of the time of his duala Of shtirlitsa. (several lines, arbitrarily undertaken from the story Of f. m. Dostoyevsky "sleep of ridiculous person", convincingly illustrate the significance of time factor for the representatives of this psychological type of:"... Truth I learned in the past November, and precisely third November, and each instant my I remember from that time 4. This was in the gloomy, gloomiest evening, such as only can be. I returned then in the eleventh to the hour of evening home, and precisely, I remember, I thought that already it cannot be gloomier time.")

    Assigning encounter, Dostoyevsky tries as it is possible to more precisely discuss all circumstances of time and place so that it would arise no confusion and in order no one not to force to await. (Dostoyevsky it does not love to make it necessary to await and it does not love, when it they force to await.)

    Some of the representatives of this type possess phenomenal memory and they can even at the old age in detail to describe the events, which occurred with them in the early childhood, consecutively remembering all circumstances in minute detail.

    To planning of his and strange time Dostoyevsky relates very seriously. For example, he can forego the advantageous, but lasting contract, fearing, that in this period in his plans can occur the changes and it will not be able to fulfill the undertaken itself obligations.

    With his entire dreaminess and estrangement, never he forgets about the encounters assigned and the planned matters. Moreover, it constantly reminds others about the fact that and when it is necessary to make. Sometimes is created impression, that this not of men, but "walking hours": "already poldevyatogo, why you still house?!", "now already seven it is hour, to you it is time to assume medicine!", "do not forget, it requested to perezvonit' to noon!", "today the eighth number, do not forget to tomorrow pay for the apartment".

    He tries everything to do in proper time, even demonstratively in proper time: "it is necessary to arrive earlier, and that suddenly it will arrive earlier and it will be disturbed, that still we are not!"

    Dostoyevsky suffer hurries cannot, he tries to maximally accurately calculate the operating time, in order to carry out task accurately in time. If some objective circumstances force it to introduce correctives into their plans, it will mobilize all forces in order not "to be knocked out from the graph". To be deflected from its "graph" it can only, if this is required in the interests of its personal relations. (for example, if its friends are required aid and sympathy precisely when it makes urgent work, Dostoyevsky will prove to be in the extremely difficult situation.)

    Dostoyevsky is beret to himself the concern about the order of the day of his partner. If partner has a habit, being fascinated by work, to forget about leisure, Dostoyevsky, as the brought hours, will in time recall that time to already and rest and to eat up. If partner is not suggested by his reminders, Dostoyevsky uses decisive measures. (he uses decisive measures and when someone of his close ones sharply differs from the normal and healthy regime of the day: "usually during the school vacations grandmother for us made possible to be spilled later, and us it pleased itself to experience her, how much it will permit us to lie along time in the bed. And here, when came "critical time", grandmother, usually already angered, was dug in into our bedroom and "woke" us in a most decisive manner, although by nature he was man by very soft and delicate ".)

    Dostoyevsky is always irritated, if someone is not considered his personal time. Itself it never will allow itself by strange time to abuse. (grandmother, of the given above example, especially it serdilas' to its grandsons for the fact that in the expectation of their "awakening", it was necessary on several times to heat by it breakfast, while in it there was another mass of other planned matters.)

    Dostoyevsky's concern about the time of his surrounding people - this first of all the form of the expression of its relation to them, this indispensable condition of his ethical program, ethical accordion with the partner.

    To give time to man so that you soak to it, to support, to comfort it, to sympathize with it, this is, in understanding of Dostoyevsky, the large and generous gift, which already itself speaks for itself. And precisely this gift best anything is evaluated by its dualom Shtirlitsem.

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    To give time to man so that you soak to it, to support, to comfort it, to sympathize with it, this is, in understanding of Dostoyevsky, the large and generous gift, which already itself speaks for itself. And precisely this gift best anything is evaluated by its dualom Shtirlitsem.
    Agreed.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    ... Perhaps they don't live up to your impossible standards...
    Life can be quite hard for ESTj. They seek perfection but such thing doesn't exist and they get stuck in a vicious circle. I know several women of this type who always end up finding flaws in their partners and stay single all of their lives. It can be hard to end up alone and doesn't even realize why is it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
    ... Perhaps they don't live up to your impossible standards...
    Life can be quite hard for ESTj. They seek perfection but such thing doesn't exist and they get stuck in a vicious circle. I know several women of this type who always end up finding flaws in their partners and stay single all of their lives. It can be hard to end up alone and doesn't even realize why is it.
    A good INFj is close enough.

    However, I do appreciate you saying what you said.
    See my sig.


    Strati Fi for LSE
    To construct its personal interrelations to representatives of this type is very difficult. Subconsiously they are oriented to the system of the ethical values of Dostoyevsky. Therefore their personal system of interrelations bears a somewhat idealistic nature. With whom not they constructed their interrelations, they assume the presence in their partner of such qualities as pliability, delicacy, punctiliousness, decency, sincerity, i.e., all those qualities, which are characteristic of the ethical program of Dostoyevsky.

    It is natural that genuine reality constantly disappoints Shtirlitsev. Therefore, analyzing the previous sad experience, they are very careful in the formation of new relations. Very not easily they converge with the people, they try not to tie their society, about itself, about their personal life they say very little and it is very unwilling.

    Very reserved - it is possible to work with this person side by side several years and about it not to almost anything know. In the contact they hold distant distance. It is outwardly very distrustful, inclined to the suspiciousness, but nevertheless no checkings to the "honesty" they for themselves allow - they consider this dishonorable for themselves and insulting for the partner. They count, if man abused by their confidence, let this will be on his conscience. (if, for example, Shtirlits suspects someone of the subordinates of the ill-intended actions, it makes the general warning to entire association, knowing that there already they themselves at everything will be dismantled and by general forces will reveal criminal. Matter much more badly is, if in the association ripens plot against it personally. Shtirlits a certain time waits, hoping that the "nucleus of conspirators" will complete any explicit inadvertence and then it will be possible to with it "be dismantled", or someone of the members of the association will prevent plot and will extinguish its. If neither that nor, etc. it occurs, it dismisses all.)

    Any manifestation of dishonorableness, dishonesty, meanness, treachery, zhul'nichestva survives very acutely. (Shtirlits in the ethical plan we generally deeply wound. By external severity and by inaccessibility it covers its internal vulnerability.)

    To the abuse of its confidence Of shtirlits it relates very painfully. Moreover the matter here not in the pride and not in the ambitions, but in the fact that its ethical code is touch uponed. Shtirlits is subconsiously oriented to confidence in man. Confidence and decency considers the standard of relations. Person, not allotted by these qualities, in his understanding, immoral villain and relation to it must be appropriate.

    Shtirlits knows how to recognize its errors and its fault (although it this costs enormous stress, since this acknowledgement, as a rule, by it is deeply suffered), never it avoids responsibility. Straightness and honesty - most active qualities of its ethics. - but to mountain to that, who will force -Wtirliqa to answer for the strange fault - on his own will and at will, he itself can "cover" whom conveniently (whom it considers it necessary), but do not give his god "to substitute" under the troubles, even on the misunderstanding. (that, although will be considered as the softening circumstance, nevertheless Shtirlits will conduct the most thorough investigation, until it is dismantled at the true motives of act)

    Relations with its disappointed people Of shtirlits it vomits without any regret and tries hence about them not to think. Any reference about these people to it is extremely unpleasant. (when to it about them they resemble, it usually it puckers and it turns away.)


    Any aggravation of the relations Of shtirlits receives as declaration of war: it will mobilize entire its will and energy and it begins to consider the plan of actions in the prevailing situation. Moreover this war usually continues "to the victorious end" and it costs it the enormous stress of forces and nerves, which subsequently affects its health.

    Shtirlits magnificently knows how to aggravate relations and sufficiently rapidly acquires to itself the mass of enemies. Therefore the ethical program of its duala of Dostoyevsky is for his "problematic" ethics present rescuing, since it orients toward the mutual understanding, pacifism, mercy and pliability. Dostoyevsky learns Shtirlitsa to be magnanimous, to know how to pardon, he "softens" Shtirlitsa, smooths out the sharp angles of his relations. Shtirlits is calmed, vidya before itself an ethical example of Dostoyevsky, who knows how to stably transfer any disappointments and who knows how not to hold evil. The idealistic principles of Dostoyevsky find the reality, when them follows Shtirlits.

    .....I would not want any other type for my dual. I know I need them.
    I also know that searching for ethical principles has been a major part of my life. So having someone being an example of them for me, that certainly helps. I know I have to "get better"
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I have been reading your posts Courage, and quite honestly, your level of apparent understanding of EIIs is amazing. However, you are definitely an exception to the rule... My attitude towards LSEs is not flowery as some INFjs mention their's is, quite the distant contrary. It may be the amount of EII pheromones in this thread too :wink: , or maybe, lack of bad experiences. In any case, I just wanted to let you know that what you are doing is a good thing.

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    It's quite amazing, actually. When I am around other people I often just get this extreme urge to get things done smoothly and fully and eliminate any thing that is not pertinent to getting things done - particularly in a work setting.

    The fact of the matter is - it really doesn't matter what you think or what you are feeling, there are a certain set of things that need to be done to move on to the next step and complete the process.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    It's quite amazing, actually. When I am around other people I often just get this extreme urge to get things done smoothly and fully and eliminate any thing that is not pertinent to getting things done - particularly in a work setting.

    The fact of the matter is - it really doesn't matter what you think or what you are feeling, there are a certain set of things that need to be done to move on to the next step and complete the process.
    This is something I really like about ESTjs. It comes across as confidence, and also cutting through all the crap that I would stumble over in an effort to get something done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    This is something I really like about ESTjs. It comes across as confidence, and also cutting through all the crap that I would stumble over in an effort to get something done.
    Well, it feels like some sort of combination of anger and nervousness and "what the hell's going on here, why is everyone just sitting around and talking?"

    I'm not sure how many other people appreciate it though.

    It depends on if I'm comfortable relaxing though. If it is around people I enjoy relaxing with, then I can be comfortable chilling out and not really doing much. But if not, then I see no reason reason to be around people I am not really doing something with.


    People don't like me at work though (sometimes) because I don't really allow any of leisurely talk, when we are doing something. (I understand that people need to be talk and socialize to be happy, in general). There was a time when an EIE and I were working together, and he would waste so much time talking with everyone we came across. Not just talking, but making jokes and trying to boost people's moods. But I don't really care about coming off like a hardass in that situation - it seems like often times I am one of the few people willing to do that.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Default the care and handling of INFjs

    So guys, the ISTp focus group turned out to be such an awesome resource for unefille (well, I use it to back me up in arguments with her, so...) I figured I'd put my money where my mouth is and ask for some help too. And well, the irrationals have taken over delta recently so I'm all for reclaiming a corner for the rationals!

    There's this INFj guy I like. I think he's absolutely incredible, and there's pretty much nothing about him I would want to change. (Except one of his coats. That could definitely do with a change!) I think there is something going on between us, but I'm really not sure. And I want to know how much of the initiative I have to take. Which is a role I usually just say 'no frickin' way' to having to do, but for him it might be worthwhile. That, and I don't want to scare him off. So...SOS.

    I've known him for a while now, probably under 2 years all up, but it's only this year I've really gotten to know him better. We are on the same student committee, and I'm doing what he did last year, so I do call him up for advice every now and then, and he's always really helpful. We do manage to have a chat each time we see each other at meetings.

    Then I saw him at a party last week, and we talked for quite a while, completely ignoring everyone around us (it was a big party, so that wasn't as rude as it sounds). We lost track of each other for a whlie, but I saw him leaving and went over to say bye. I said I would like to hear more about something he's involved in, because I'd heard about it from (mutual friend) and thought that was really wrong since I hope we're better friends than they are. He agreed, said we should get a coffee sometime, I said yeah, sure, and then he suggested lunch on a Friday. I said something like that sounds great, I'll facebook (message) you about it.

    So there were no distinct plans made, and I'm wondering how concrete was that suggestion of his? I ended up need to call him a few days after for advice (student committee thing again), and didn't mention it then, but neither did he. So INFjs, you're my only hope! What did that mean? And um, how much should a girl have to take the initiative with an INFj guy?

    And if this thread is irrelevant to you but you clicked anyway, well, he's a random music vid I've been listening to a lot recently to make it more worthwhile:
    http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=nL49yZ...eature=related
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    Well, if he suggested lunch on a Friday, then he probably thought it an agreeable idea... And since you said you would Facebook him, I guess you could always Facebook him. Maybe he's not sure what to do either. I dunno, really. But I don't think it would be very pushy of you to do what you said you were going to do anyway. Especially since he could always respond saying he's busy but would like to some other time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    Well, if he suggested lunch on a Friday, then he probably thought it an agreeable idea... And since you said you would Facebook him, I guess you could always Facebook him. Maybe he's not sure what to do either. I dunno, really. But I don't think it would be very pushy of you to do what you said you were going to do anyway. Especially since he could always respond saying he's busy but would like to some other time.
    Mmm, but (and maybe this is just paranoia on my part) it seems like I'm *always* the one reaching out. Like he never calls me, I'm always the one calling him. I'm suggesting meetups etc. And I'm really not used to being the one doing all the pursuing.

    But thanks for the advice. I'll definitely keep that in mind and try to convince myself to take that step...
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Mmm, but (and maybe this is just paranoia on my part) it seems like I'm *always* the one reaching out. Like he never calls me, I'm always the one calling him. I'm suggesting meetups etc. And I'm really not used to being the one doing all the pursuing.

    But thanks for the advice. I'll definitely keep that in mind and try to convince myself to take that step...
    My LSE friend found herself doing that a lot in her relationship with an EII - taking the initative. They were in different cities, and she would usually be the one calling him, flying up to see him. She just seemed to think that she had to take that role. They've broken up (so lol - not such a good example), but fwiw, she put it down to not letting him do any of the work. Don't know how true that is, but she definitely seemed to be pursuing him too much. Plus at the beginning, he was taking the initiative, so shows they are capable of it. (c: I would think it's best to just make sure you mix it up a bit - don't do all the work yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Mmm, but (and maybe this is just paranoia on my part) it seems like I'm *always* the one reaching out. Like he never calls me, I'm always the one calling him. I'm suggesting meetups etc. And I'm really not used to being the one doing all the pursuing.
    I totally relate to that feeling. I'm not sure what to say. It's ok for work related things, and I think this is where LSEs can get into problems with people. In work things, organizational things, if you just keep pushing, that's fine - it's somewhat rewarded.

    But with people, you can't do that. Sometimes you run the risk of taking so much initiative that you're acting on "fake Fi", and by that I mean a misunderstanding of someone's relationship to you, which is extremely terrible. Some people are "nice" such that they will let you keep pursuing and keep calling or whatever.... and they'll never say they don't want it. Some people, actually, use this as an excuse. "Oh, that's just how I am". And then they can just sort of drop off, or drop out, and you're left thinking "WHAAA?? I was doing so much stuff, I was doing all this work, and now this happens?"

    So it's hard. You have to be assertive, but also not too much. You can't clip your wings or get discouraged. And depending on how mature the other person is and how secure they are with being direct about things, it affects what they reveal to you.


    I might suggest just being totally upfront about your needs. Say "look, I'm a really straightforward person. This is how I feel, and I want to know how you feel about me". Or something to that effect. It's hard because that's basically what you want to say and what you're thinking, but you can't always just come out and say that. It's actually really frustrating.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    My LSE friend found herself doing that a lot in her relationship with an EII - taking the initative. They were in different cities, and she would usually be the one calling him, flying up to see him. She just seemed to think that she had to take that role. They've broken up (so lol - not such a good example), but fwiw, she put it down to not letting him do any of the work. Don't know how true that is, but she definitely seemed to be pursuing him too much. Plus at the beginning, he was taking the initiative, so shows they are capable of it. (c: I would think it's best to just make sure you mix it up a bit - don't do all the work yourself.
    Yeah. Don't do all the work. But I think it's ok to be more aggressive in the beginning. Your role as an extratim is to initiate things, basically. But it's still hard.

    It's not an easy thing.


    Other advice: try to look at how this person deals with other people, to assess their "honesty" level. Not just honesty, but honest about how they express themselves to you. If the person is more habitually very indirect and noncommittal about relationships in general, it will like be harder, or you may have to be more on your guard.

    It's hard to say though : /

    If you know other people, especially Fi people, who can give you advice about how that person is feeling, ask them for advice. If you are at a point where you don't trust or aren't sure about how the other person feels, that might be something you can do to cover your weakness.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Also, it's easy to get caught up in wanting to push and push and push, thinking that the more you push, the better things will be. Sometimes seeing "no results" or "negative results" gets you to thinking you need to work harder at it, which is not actually what you have to do. It's hard to realize but people are not machines, and you have to "relate to them" differently.

    You also have to maintain some sort of levelness, too. Because if you are overeager, sometimes people, ALL people, especially F types, will do things "to not hurt your feelings". I'd try to get it out there as much as possible that you're not one of those people, and you want direct talk as much as possible. Really emphasize that. But at the same time, you have to act receptive to it. EIIs fear negative consequences of expressing their thoughts or opinions......

    THAT'S WHY THEY ARE LSE's DUALS lol

    But you always have to monitor how you're coming off, because if you seem like you don't want to hear something, they might not say it. I'm sure there are many great people, of all types, who are forthright in that way, but not everyone is, and until you know the nature of someone really well, you can never be sure how they are in this way - know what variables they are more sensitive about, what affects their decisions to withhold or present information, and so on. But yeah, be mindful about pushing too hard and not presenting any space for actual feedback. This can be really hard, if you really want to be with someone, and you feel drawn to them. It's easy to get impatient.

    However, a lot of EIIs sort of "get" all this and can understand you. What I described was a more negative situation, that is, one possible way things can go wrong - how things might unfold if the EII isn't really into you, but you're sort of not aware of it yet. I think EIIs can be perfectly upfront about things, too, and I know some that are - and are really good that way. When I've seen EIIs who are actually and directly interested in someone, they can be very clear about it, and can express wanting to spend time together and all of that.

    I wonder how it will be with a male EII. I hope it works out for you.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    There was one thread that I'm remembering Minde post in a lot, and something about it seemed very important in dealing with EIIs.

    It has to do with always presenting means for communication, safe communication, in which what they say will be understood and reacted to well. Or at least, a situation where they can talk to you and really say what's on their mind, without fear of you getting really mad or whatever. If anyone knows the thread, I request that you link it here, I'd like to look at it again.

    I think as a pursuing LSE, it is very important to be aware of that. Yes, you have to show initiative and want, and there is some inherent bias to that. But you also have to really work at that levelness. I think without it, Jem's story is able to happen easily.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    You also have to maintain some sort of levelness, too. Because if you are overeager, sometimes people, ALL people, especially F types, will do things "to not hurt your feelings". I'd try to get it out there as much as possible that you're not one of those people, and you want direct talk as much as possible. Really emphasize that. But at the same time, you have to act receptive to it. EIIs fear negative consequences of expressing their thoughts or opinions......
    I know!! This is *exactly* what I'm worried about. Coming across too strong and having him feel all 'whoa, back off'. I mean, at the same time I know that he's really good about saying no and turning down things if he doesn't have time for them. But it's also an issue of whether coffee/lunch means the same thing to both of us: is it a friends thing or a date thing? And there's no way I could actually come out and ask that. I'm just not comfortable with calling attention to relationships that way.

    When I've seen EIIs who are actually and directly interested in someone, they can be very clear about it, and can express wanting to spend time together and all of that.

    I wonder how it will be with a male EII. I hope it works out for you.
    How does EII interest manifest? Because (and this goes more to your post above) I don't really know how he interacts with other people. I mean, I know a guy who's probably his best friend - and they talk a lot on the phone, constantly in touch, but the friend generally describes the EII to me as some alien creature he doesn't understand. (The friend is LSI) And yeah, he's really friendly with people. I just have *no idea* whatsoever how he would interact with a girl he likes. Which, you know, reaching out to the EIIs here to help me with...

    And thanks.

    @ Jem: thanks for the input...another cautionary tale to keep in mind! But yeah, I can see how that could happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    It has to do with always presenting means for communication, safe communication, in which what they say will be understood and reacted to well. Or at least, a situation where they can talk to you and really say what's on their mind, without fear of you getting really mad or whatever. If anyone knows the thread, I request that you link it here, I'd like to look at it again.
    Hmm...I think we're pretty good with the communicating thing. I mean, I do feel I initiate more in conversations, but he also definitely is comfortable asking me questions - and he often remembers things I refered to ages before, which is nice. He tells me quite a bit about what he's been up to when I ask - things that if I had done, I'd only tell friends/people I am comfortable with. But then again, I have no idea how much *he* tells his friends. He questions things I say, asking things like 'do you really think that policy is fair because of these grounds, X. Y, Z', and listens to my reasons. He's certainly no pushover. But as I said, I don't know whether he talks to me more or less than he does to other people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by idolatrie View Post
    Mmm, but (and maybe this is just paranoia on my part) it seems like I'm *always* the one reaching out. Like he never calls me, I'm always the one calling him. I'm suggesting meetups etc. And I'm really not used to being the one doing all the pursuing.

    But thanks for the advice. I'll definitely keep that in mind and try to convince myself to take that step...
    yes i think you better get used it. just do what you do naturally, try not to worry. i think when people start trying to make things into something -- like turning your natural inclinations into something that is too much or too little -- it can be the start of problems. If you want good results, why change what you are doing when they are already producing good results? I'm assuming your interactions have been good thus far. You're gonna be wondering about feelings until you get together in any courting situation. Why deepen these concerns? Just do.

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    I mean, I do feel I initiate more in conversations, but he also definitely is comfortable asking me questions - and he often remembers things I refered to ages before, which is nice. He tells me quite a bit about what he's been up to when I ask - things that if I had done, I'd only tell friends/people I am comfortable with. But then again, I have no idea how much *he* tells his friends.
    I know what you mean about the last sentence.

    Overall, I think that's a good sign though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Also, it's easy to get caught up in wanting to push and push and push, thinking that the more you push, the better things will be. Sometimes seeing "no results" or "negative results" gets you to thinking you need to work harder at it, which is not actually what you have to do. It's hard to realize but people are not machines, and you have to "relate to them" differently
    idolatrie: now, if you are producing negative results, then we're not in the same situation anymore. Ne Fi don't need you to make justifications for who you are. that is what they do. But you have to respect their space like was posted already.

    you have to let them stew like a goulash... or a souffle.... you add your paprika, caraway seeds, your pepper and your bay leaves, cover and let it cook on a low fire for 10 to 15 minutes until it's picked up the flavor of the seasonings. Then you add more shit and recover and let it simmer gently and adjust the heat. Then you give it some rice.

    ........then you take your spoon, and stab it in the middle and eat them.
    Last edited by Ms. Kensington; 08-13-2008 at 08:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Overall, I think that's a good sign though.
    Yes.
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    I'm pretty picky about who I like. And when I do like someone it's a sort of... steady, loyal thing that takes root and makes its home in me. So it hasn't happened much and I can't really tell how I behave in those circumstances. I think it's more like a state of being than obvious behavior. And, because it's so much a part of me, it's not likely something I'd try to show to many people. In such a case I think I could act in any number of ways, including being shy, talkative, including, possessive, avoiding, quiet, open, etc.

    There're also the milder forms of liking, akin to infatuation, which are - for me - less of a romantic thing usually and more of an intenser interest in a particular person where I just find them fascinating for whatever reasons. In those cases I demonstrate what evidently are the more common signs of attraction, like drawing them into conversation, finding ways to be with (i.e. observe) them, thinking about them a lot, talking about them, and even - heaven help me - flirting. A couple of times that type of interest has lead to or threatened to lead to something deeper, but usually it's just another form of the way I find something interesting, pursue it until satisfied, and then store it on a shelf in my mind to come back to later if I want to, moving on to whatever else is interesting or pressing around me. I say another form, because I generally try to treat people a little better than mere concepts or objects or disciplines. Once I lessen in finding you intensely interesting, I'll consider you a friend and treat you loyally for as long as I think you deserve it.

    And, then, speaking of which, there's friendship of course. But I think you were wanting to look more at the romantic side of things in terms of how EIIs behave.

    Hm, I don't know how useful that is to you, idolatrie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington View Post
    idolatrie: now, if you are producing negative results, then we're not in the same situation anymore. Ne Fi don't need you to make justifications for who you are. that is what they do. But you have to respect their space like was posted already.

    you have to let them stew like a goulash... or a souffle.... you add your paprika, caraway seeds, your pepper and your bay leaves, cover and let it cook on a low fire for 10 to 15 minutes until it's picked up the flavor of the seasonings. Then you add more shit and recover and let it simmer gently and adjust the heat. Then you give it some rice.

    ........then you take your spoon, and stab it in the middle and eat them.
    lol Im blushing! That was a good description.

    Taking it easy sounds good. Offering to help with Te things is good too. I think EII would love practical help. A little flirting couldn't hurt either. When he's talking just look at his eyes for a while then say something like "I really like this eye, for some reason" and just point at one of them. Hahahahah that will mess with his mind, and he'll say "whats wrong with my other eye?" at which point you say "Yeah I was really into it last time we met but today it's all about this one" Hahahahaha

    OK that may be my offbeat humor but I hope you get the idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    There was one thread that I'm remembering Minde post in a lot, and something about it seemed very important in dealing with EIIs.

    It has to do with always presenting means for communication, safe communication, in which what they say will be understood and reacted to well. Or at least, a situation where they can talk to you and really say what's on their mind, without fear of you getting really mad or whatever. If anyone knows the thread, I request that you link it here, I'd like to look at it again.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=18798
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