Ne and Ni functional definitions Thesocion.com

[Hitta]

Extraverted Intuition(Static, Internal, Objects, Perceiving)

Extraverted Intuition deals with our points of reference on knowledge, potentiality of objects, and purpose.


All functions are divided into +/- divisions due to how they manifest in each type.

+ Extraverted Intuition- Multiple viewpoints, relativity, perceptions, "grey area" viewpoints, comparisons between objects and different relative planes, positive potential, separation from accepted reality, opportunities, new developments.

-Extraverted Intution- Single viewpoint, absolutionism, "black and white area" viewpoints, understanding objects in accepted plane, negative potential, acceptance of "normal" reality, missed opportunites, finding problems with ideas, criticalness, seeing problems.
[hr:c441750d8d]

Introverted Intuition(Dynamic, Internal, Fields, Perceiving)

Introverted Intuition is the function that understand the passage through time, and who we deal with the unknown. It involves both the gradual and the fast moving developments through time. Fear and confidence are byproducts also of Introverted Intuition.


All functions are divided into +/- divisions due to how they manifest in each type.

+ Introverted Intuition- Gradual progression into the future, step by step productivity, convergence of the population, confidence, sense of safety, reproduction of past tendencies, reproduction of the past, evolution, acceptance of the unknown, normalness, prediction, foresight, steady time stream.

-Introverted Intuition- Sharp shifting progression into the future, out of phase productivity, divergence of the population, fear, sense of anxiety, fear of death, fear of unknown, preparation against dangers, novelty, originality, singularity.

[Jonathan]

More than the others, these seem to confuse +/- with weak/strong.

-Extraverted Intution- Single viewpoint, ... "black and white area" viewpoints, understanding objects in accepted plane, ... acceptance of "normal" reality, missed opportunites, ...

In no way is strong extraverted intuition recognizable here. This is simply a description of weak Ne. In contrast, your +/- Ti definitions, while not perfect, at least seem as if they could both be describing strong use of Ti.

[Hitta]

More than the others, these seem to confuse +/- with weak/strong.

-Extraverted Intution- Single viewpoint, ... "black and white area" viewpoints, understanding objects in accepted plane, ... acceptance of "normal" reality, missed opportunites, ...

In no way is strong extraverted intuition recognizable here. This is simply a description of weak Ne. In contrast, your +/- Ti definitions, while not perfect, at least seem as if they could both be describing strong use of Ti.

Everyone has one or the other as a valued function, so everyone is gonna be one way or the other. I may need to reword the - definition, but what I was trying to get with it was that people with it reduce the options, and come to a single conclusion in a single plain. People with + try to keep producing more and more possibilities. +Ne has a hard time coming to conclusions, because they tend to keep seeing possibilities. Like if a lamp supposedly fell, a +Ne type may question if it really fell, or whether or not some abstract scenario caused the appearance of a lamp falling. A -Ne person would start removing the apparent possibilities one by one, and come to a stable conclusion in a single plane. -Ne is the reason why gammas make such good critics.

[strrrng]

how did the whole +/- thing start and how valid is it, really?

[Jonathan]

how did the whole +/- thing start and how valid is it, really?

I think Gulenko, and maybe others, wrote about how an IM element may be used differently depending on what it's blocked with. So for example, Si used with Te may emphasize more of the practical dimensions of Si, whereas Si used with Fe may emphasize more emphasis on people's comfort. Somehow a convention was started that with N blocked with T or S blocked with F, the irrational element would be "+" and the rational "-"....and the reverse for the other two blocking combinations. Originally, the terms used were "short-term" and "long-term" I think. The descriptions didn't necessarily suggest a conclusive overall interpretation for what "+" is or what "-" that applied in all cases.

Hitta took this to a new level, interpreting "-" as meaning a sort of "anti" form of the IM element. That much, however, is interesting and maybe worth investigating to some extent, although I've heard that mainstream Socionists don't view this kind of interpretation as working in practice.

What Hitta has suggested that's quite a bit more radical though, is that people use the IM elements that are in the id block, but with reversed "polarity," so that for example, ILI would have Ti+ blocked with Ne- (something that doesn't conform to the standard definition because when T is blocked with N, T is - by definition, and N is + by definition). Hitta's model discounts the role of the id block as a "strong" block, and instead replaces this idea with the idea of putting those functions, with reversed-polarity, "into" the ego block, whatever that really means.

[Jonathan]

-Introverted Intuition- Sharp shifting progression into the future, out of phase productivity, divergence of the population, fear, sense of anxiety, fear of death, fear of unknown, preparation against dangers, novelty, originality, singularity.

By the way, what does all this fear of the unknown stuff have to do with novelty and originality? Isn't including novelty and originality in this list just to ensure that Alphas come out as the "creative" ones in your system?

[Jonathan]

-Ne is the reason why gammas make such good critics.

If so, why wouldn't Delta NFs make even better critics?

What about the more standard explanation that Te (focusing on finding the best, most rational or effective way to accomplish something) is the main reason reason why Gammas are able to offer useful criticism?

[tcaudilllg]

how did the whole +/- thing start and how valid is it, really?

I think Gulenko, and maybe others, wrote about how an IM element may be used differently depending on what it's blocked with. So for example, Si used with Te may emphasize more of the practical dimensions of Si, whereas Si used with Fe may emphasize more emphasis on people's comfort. Somehow a convention was started that with N blocked with T or S blocked with F, the irrational element would be "+" and the rational "-"....and the reverse for the other two blocking combinations. Originally, the terms used were "short-term" and "long-term" I think. The descriptions didn't necessarily suggest a conclusive overall interpretation for what "+" is or what "-" that applied in all cases.

Hitta took this to a new level, interpreting "-" as meaning a sort of "anti" form of the IM element. That much, however, is interesting and maybe worth investigating to some extent, although I've heard that mainstream Socionists don't view this kind of interpretation as working in practice.

What Hitta has suggested that's quite a bit more radical though, is that people use the IM elements that are in the id block, but with reversed "polarity," so that for example, ILI would have Ti+ blocked with Ne- (something that doesn't conform to the standard definition because when T is blocked with N, T is - by definition, and N is + by definition). Hitta's model discounts the role of the id block as a "strong" block, and instead replaces this idea with the idea of putting those functions, with reversed-polarity, "into" the ego block, whatever that really means.

That's largely how I view Hitta's proposals, too.

When I look at Hitta's work, I see what may very well be the mechanics of what Jung called the transcendental function: not just a definition of why and for what purpose it works, but HOW it works. With the "how" Hitta offers, I can offer evidence that the transcendental function phenomenon exists.

...I'll only say that I'm not settled on how to manage the actual discovery of the transcendent/rescendent functions as "extended" Model-A phenomenon. Hitta's ambivalence toward awareness of the phenomenon itself doesn't help me in this regard. If he'd look at it, and even suspect that it might be valid, AND CONSIDER IT, then I suspect that he would see how the "how" he is describing----*

If I had an affirmative viewpoint from Hitta regard transcendence, I would use...

[Suomea]

transcendental function phenomenon?

[tcaudilllg]

transcendental function phenomenon?

The ability of extroverted forms of T, F, S, and N to work with the introverted forms, without arguing.

Using to evaluate what possibilities you should pursue would be an example; e.g., asking how thing could play out, where you're headed as a person etc. Being capable of choosing the possibilities that will work best for you.

[Hitta]

transcendental function phenomenon?

The ability of extroverted forms of T, F, S, and N to work with the introverted forms, without arguing.

Using to evaluate what possibilities you should pursue would be an example; e.g., asking how thing could play out, where you're headed as a person etc. Being capable of choosing the possibilities that will work best for you.

What I'm am trying to say with my theory is as you describe. Although I would go as far to say that the and the that the person uses in the same functional sub-block are the same function so to speak. For instance, + is - in its introverted form and vice versa.

[tcaudilllg]

transcendental function phenomenon?

The ability of extroverted forms of T, F, S, and N to work with the introverted forms, without arguing.

Using to evaluate what possibilities you should pursue would be an example; e.g., asking how thing could play out, where you're headed as a person etc. Being capable of choosing the possibilities that will work best for you.

What I'm am trying to say with my theory is as you describe. Although I would go as far to say that the and the that the person uses in the same functional sub-block are the same function so to speak. For instance, + is - in its introverted form and vice versa.

I'm coming around to your PoV on this. My intuitive hunch right now is we differentiate ourselves (e.g., spontaneously create the function order even though the differentiation is something that is required) by first considering the reverse polarity form of our base function, finding it morally unacceptable, and then resigning the conclusion to the subconscious in favor of the polarity we find acceptable. This accounts for the young INTj's perception of contact with the external ideological world (the one outside their own head) as creating the potential for their misuse of it. They are imagining themselves using + to exploit the -, or that's how it's looking right now.

When the INTj actually uses these elements, they give priority to , not . The reason for this seems to be, again, because they feel their + as dangerous, and in need of absolute repression. And yet, if the differentiation process is itself carried out by genetically-influenced biochemistry, then our concepts of morality are not necessary matters of choice, but of biochemical necessity. It would seem that for the purposes of a moral society and its benefits, we have evolved appropriately.

The "pathological" INTj, on the other hand, would accept +/- without thinking twice, using it to create -/+ no doubt; but there is that problem of the id dominating them, not the ego....