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Thread: Strengthening vulnerable/polr function

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    Default Strengthening vulnerable/polr function

    Is it possible, or even practical for someone to strengthen his or her 4th function?

    I know that successful people rely on their strengths to become successful, and it would almost be pointless to focus energy on one’s weakness only to become average in that area. But lets say a person is fully aware and honest at all times, yes, this would require a great deal of energy, but is it really possible?

    For those who have access to the Russian literature, this may sound really stupid, please forgive me.

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    Well here I go, just some stuff that occurs to me.
    Information Metabolism is always going to affect you, you can't avoid it. Strengthening your fourth function means getting more experience in it, AKA being uncomfortable and being in places you don't want to be. This usually comes with time. That's why older people are more difficult to type. You might just end up strengthening your strong functions to avoid the situations of the fourth function. So really you have two choices. Put yourself through painful situation intentionally, or wait for the pain to come to you. The first option will probably round out your personality faster and make the midlife crisis easier, but the second option lets life take you where it wants, fate, whatever. But really it's just a choice to make. I suppose people who don't understand socionics don't have a choice.

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    How about using your strengths to circumvent your weaknesses? Lets say, an ENTp imagining how to convince others based on how he or she can convince his or hers self?

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    Are we still talking about the fourth function? Then I don't follow how thats related to introverted feeling...convince them to like them? Wait is fourth function positive or negative introverted feeling for ENTP...I can never remember. I'd like to put those on the site if I can find a decent translation

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    Default :)

    I have an ENTp personality type.

    I tried to strengthen my third function (extroverted sensing). I can learn some tactics/techniques, but don't use them always. I just focus on the environment, for example: when someone is talking to me, I try to hear every word instead of visualizing what someone might say. However, I don't do that always.
    This forgeting to do it brings problems: I forgot things what others said, I do the wrong thing and so on.

    Considering clothing and aestetics: I improved a little. I watch what I buy, how much it costs, does it look good on me, and so on. However, when I do that, ideas pop in my head and I get confused, unsure. I don't really know if what I see is satisfying.

    So, I would like to know, have I really strengthen my third function?
    Is this strengthening posible?
    And yes, how does this "strengthened" function manifest in reality? Do I make less mistakes I made before, or what?

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    I wouldn't pay more attention to the MBTI function descriptions I have on my site, they may disappear. Here is ENTP's third(role) function:

    Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession;

    May make better sense to you, but may not make any sense at all, it's translated to English. oh well

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    Your third function is your role. It's what you think you're supposed to do. It forms your conscious 'purpose'. "Am I doing this right? I've got to get better at this" etc . This is getting into philosophical domains...

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    Default :)

    Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession
    Well, it does describe some of my situations. I did tryed to uphold my interests by practicaly manifest them (my ideas to reality). However, I will have to make more experiments with myself to get to know myself better. I just don't have enough of observations to say that those quoted words describe the third function of my personality type acording to socionics.

    Considering the quoted description, I could say that most of my visualizations can be described by words counterattack, possession, retaliation, and so on. I visualize situations where I fight others with knives and guns while awake. Also, when I hear something stupid on TV, like a bad move of a politician, I get exited and my visualizations show me fighting, arguing in the parlament, rebellion, and so on. Freakish, aint it? But, I would say that many people with ENTP personality types "out there" also act the same. If the last sentence is somewhat true,
    using socionics is powerful because by knowing ones type and few other details, you could predict how someone will react to the situation and use that prediction for your own benefit.

    BTW, sorry if I bore you with ME, MYSELF and I, but it's myself I know the most.

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    From a translated thing out of a socionics newpaper in russian, it's really really fucking accurate, I just wish I had the time to put that in the site. Really clears things up. Especially if it was translated correctly.

    Its not subtype theory, it's sub function theory. Aspects in positive and negative. AKA INTJ and ISTJ have negative and positive introverted thinking, etc. negative and positive may not be translating correctly....maybe distant and closer aspect, respectibly.

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    Default Re: :)

    [quote="drake"]
    Considering the quoted description, I could say that most of my visualizations can be described by words counterattack, possession, retaliation, and so on. I visualize situations where I fight others with knives and guns while awake. Also, when I hear something stupid on TV, like a bad move of a politician, I get exited and my visualizations show me fighting, arguing in the parlament, rebellion, and so on. Freakish, aint it? But, I would say that many people with ENTP personality types "out there" also act the same.
    Yep! You and me both!

    Somethimes when I am at work, I'll get board and will start imagining funny things that could happen just to keep myself awake. Often times this will take the form of a spoof of a movie that I have created.

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    Lev Kamensky wrote

    “And I've found that all the people who made a big contribution to humanity had one thing in common... they all have conquered their Painful function... 4th function in A model.”

    Is this due to the amount of effort that these types of people exerted?
    I was watching Donald Trump this morning (I have today off) co-hosting Regis and Kelly. I can see where he dominated his inferior function as a probable ESTp. He shows that he has the ability to socially project (or I would call it the expression of developmental stability) it seems like to me he either rehearsed for the show or he practiced , or most likely both.
    Has anyone on this forum dominated their 4th function?

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    uh, first off trump does seem as really aloof and introverted and it seems that he makes a real effort to come off as a socialy adept individual.
    He is not very tactful and places a lot of emphasis on intelligence (yeah, I sometimes watch his show). He seems to value competance a lot.
    He is tacky and has a lack of sense of style, but compensates for this with beautiful women and possessions.
    It seems he is an introverted, intuitive thinker.
    Thus, he probably is an intp or an intj. Now one might say that there is no way he is an intj because he places so much emphasis on wealth.
    Well, then that gets to the fourth function. He mastered it to a degree if he is an intj (he became wealthy and powerful)? Why did he do this? there are any possible answers, no two fucking types are alike. I don't how he comes off as an estp. Because he is rich? come one.

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    Actually, in my experience, to me he looks and acts like an ESTp but I also could be wrong.

    but anyway...

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    Trump an INTj? that's a good one

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    Trump is an NT. It seems fairly obvious. This question is which one is he?
    ENTP
    INTJ
    INTP
    ENTJ

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    If you think Trump is an NT, forget about Socionics.

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    It’s amazing how fast and often these discussions go off track.

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    I don't mean it in an offensive way. But what's the point of knowing Socionics if you are still in MBTI idillic abstract paradise. Trump is an ESTp.

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    trump is either:
    entp
    intj
    intp
    entj
    Make your choice. There are only four.

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    No Trump is not NT. He is ISFj. He is so kind with those young men and women on his show when he takes them under his wing and offers to teach them the ropes of the fierce buisiness world. That shows very strong Fi.
    This is combined with his creative function, Se. He is very wealthy and powerful and this suggests a strong Se. He also has a good sense of style as he dresses very well, keeps his hair looking good, while making expensive and grand purchases for himself, his beautiful wife, and other members of society.
    It's so obvious that he is ISFj that it is ridiculous. Either this or ENFp.

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    Is that a joke, or are you serious? My appologies if you are, but that's simply SILLY. You cannot assume a person's persona when all the data of such characteristics come soley from a television show!

    "That shows very strong Fi."

    No, that shows that there is some business deal that Donald Trump and the station hosting the show has made.

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    Okay! Here is what I will do.

    One of these days I going to post an article "Trump-ESTp"

    It will be like "Hitler-ENTp," and I will do what CuriousSoul did, post with plenty of evidence. I do need some time to do it though.

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    Good idea! Then maybe we can keep these topics on-topic...
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Default Trump :)

    Trump is an ENTJ.


    My policy is to learn from the past, focus on the present, and dream about the future. I’m a firm believer in learning from adversity. Often the worst of times can turn to your advantage.
    I like thinking big. If you're going to be thinking anything, you might as well think big.
    In his first book, "The Art Of The Deal", he wrote that he briefly thought of attending the University of Southern California (USC), with the idea of becoming a film producer or studio executive. He eventually changed his mind when he decided that the real estate business was more lucrative.
    Taken from: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0874339/bio
    drake
    --Dilemmas are illusions.

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    Trying to change the subject back to the one at hand . . .

    I've had some success with improving my third function, Se. (I'm entp). On another thread mentioned things like yoga, paying careful attention to the five senses, paying attention to actual facts and data, and sensory-based experiences such as music, aromatherapy, photography. With a bit of effort, the third function doesn't seem too hard to stretch into. I think that Ti helps Se with this. If I want to make the effort, I usually can.

    Fourth function, on the other hand, seems to be very difficult to grasp. It takes long and careful thought to tune into Fi. Timeliness is the issue - appropriate use of this function in a spontaneous way has proved difficult. If I spend time thinking about social interactions and/or politics and plan a response I can do OK, but in the moment it's very difficult. It's like there's nothing there to help this function. It's quite awkward. I would say I have made some improvements in this area, mainly because I've admitted to myself that I suck at Fi and have caused problems for myself related to this area. But it's really more like I've been able to minimize the damage, not truly become skilled in this function area.

    This is a very interesting topic.
    Entp
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    Trump is estp. He's a total wheeler dealer and exceptionally tough-minded.
    Entp
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    No Trump is not NT. He is ISFj. He is so kind with those young men and women on his show when he takes them under his wing and offers to teach them the ropes of the fierce buisiness world. That shows very strong Fi.
    This is combined with his creative function, Se. He is very wealthy and powerful and this suggests a strong Se. He also has a good sense of style as he dresses very well, keeps his hair looking good, while making expensive and grand purchases for himself, his beautiful wife, and other members of society.
    It's so obvious that he is ISFj that it is ridiculous. Either this or ENFp.

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    I too have had some success at strengthening my and , but not a lot of

    I do think it is possible, but I think it takes a lot of effort and maybe some knowledge that we are not aware of.

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    I haven't felt 'controlled' or weak in my (or - ) function in a long time...my (or + ) function is still weak tho. I can't stand people arguing, but I still have problems telling people NO when they ask me to fix their computer for free( seems to me how - is connected to + in the INTj as far as phobia is when someone asks you to do something that you know will waste your own time and you don't want to do it). I've tried to just 'let go' sometimes when asked to do things to take up my time and just ignore my instinct to just comply and say no before I have time to think about it much. Still, I feel it is weak. I know an INFj (female) who cannot say no to just about anything she is asked to do, even changing her personality. This seems connected. Although INFJs have a slightly different phobia, it's - and + .

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    I can't even think about functions 5-8. They seem pretty esoteric and not all that well defined.

    How's this for a theory about whom to turn to when trying to strengthen fourth function weaknesses:

    A person with an area of primary first function strength will be less adept at teaching this strength since it comes naturally. A person with the area as a second function would be best, since greater practice and development has gone into that area.

    What does everybody think?
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    I think that, we shouldn't try to strenghten our weak functions. They are weak and will become weak even after the training. It's much better to try to make our 5 and 6 function stronger by finding dual and then thanks to dual our 3 and 4 function will become stronger cause of your duals protection. But trieng to live by using your SUPEREGO block will only make you feel uncomfotably and make you have stress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaido21
    I think that, we shouldn't try to strenghten our weak functions. They are weak and will become weak even after the training. It's much better to try to make our 5 and 6 function stronger by finding dual and then thanks to dual our 3 and 4 function will become stronger cause of your duals protection. But trieng to live by using your SUPEREGO block will only make you feel uncomfotably and make you have stress.
    The objective is really up to the individual.

    I personally am now starting to think that it may not be such a bad idea. I wonder how one could put an accurate analogy to it. Everyone may not agree with me, but I thought of it as like strengthening a muscle that is not used a lot.

    I do not believe in those Pandora’s Boxes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    I can't even think about functions 5-8. They seem pretty esoteric and not all that well defined.

    How's this for a theory about whom to turn to when trying to strengthen fourth function weaknesses:

    A person with an area of primary first function strength will be less adept at teaching this strength since it comes naturally. A person with the area as a second function would be best, since greater practice and development has gone into that area.

    What does everybody think?
    It is easy to teach someone how to use logic, it is already defined. But all the other functions are not so easy to define or just no one has tried for a long time like logic.

    I can see it now, inductive or deductive relation.

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    I don't know. I think that all 8 funcs have their limits. You can't make your PoLR as strong as The Programm funcs is. You may try it, but when you loose conciouss controll, you're again, not or something like this.

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    This is a rough idea, but:

    It takes a certain type of thinking to be aware of something, and it takes awareness to deal with reality. So, inferior functions are not only weak in thinking, but if one tries to think with them the thoughts are often unrealistic.

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    And what about strengths? You barely give your strengths a second thought, they come so naturally. That's why they'd be hard to teach.

    Here's a try: to develop first of all be really random in your approach. Have an interesting theory in mind. Look at threads of different ideas that are similar to your theory or each other. Try to imagine how these things fit together. Think of the applications of things fitting together.

    Now . . . do you have Frankenstein yet??

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    Default Learning logic etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    I can't even think about functions 5-8. They seem pretty esoteric and not all that well defined.

    How's this for a theory about whom to turn to when trying to strengthen fourth function weaknesses:

    A person with an area of primary first function strength will be less adept at teaching this strength since it comes naturally. A person with the area as a second function would be best, since greater practice and development has gone into that area.

    What does everybody think?
    It depends, the second function is also the function of authority, people act as know-it-alls on their second function, the first function on the other hand is the function of active will: INTJs know they can think and act logically; I know I can usually control my emotions and use them as I want, at close emotional distance anyway.

    Of course the theory says that the third and fourth function are best supported through the fifth and sixth, and thus follows the Quadra values and intertype relations, etc. They seem to generally apply, but perhaps not always. As chosen/Monica stated, ethical types tend to be more consciously and condidently aware of what they want and do not want in their love life, and a lot of people just do not agree with socionics. All I can say at this stage is that there are many ESTJs with whom I cannot get along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    It is easy to teach someone how to use logic, it is already defined. But all the other functions are not so easy to define or just no one has tried for a long time like logic.

    I can see it now, inductive or deductive relation.
    I am afraid it does not quite go like that. For ethical types logic can be almost like emotions for logical types. You know perfectly well what you should do, and theoretically it should be easy, but in practise it still always takes an awful lot of effort and can feel terribly stressful.

    Logical types also often seem to confuse logic with intelligence, just try to keep in mind that there is no proven correlation. Some MBTI studies have even found that among the most highly intelligent men ethical types are overrepresented, and among women logical types. I tried to google but could not find the link now. My short definition would be that intelligence is the ability to learn and reason independently. Logic is the ability to consistently think and act logically and the ability to take responsibility and pressure on these functions. This definition should perhaps be fine-tuned in the future, but this should help guide your thinking.

    Dualization could theoretically help a great deal in developing the weaker functions, but it is not that easy since the gender roles just are, all feminist rhetoric nonwithstanding, not reversible - and as admin noted, what women say they want, and what they actually respond to, are often totally different. Or just more generally, for a guy to generally appear attractive the functions already need to be pretty well developed.

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    I think your superego(3,4) limits your conscious thinking and actions. It will always be this way. Strengthening them, is more or less using them more, to the point where they still limit your actions, but you can find ways 'around' their limits. For instance..the role function. I'll use INTj as an example because I've never been another type I'll always filter my conscious thoughts and actions through what other people will think. Since role function is accepting, this tends to mean INTjs will always base this on other's judgements. Well, for instance, I want to do this, I think it's the logical choice between all given, but society wouldn't like it, etc. I think strengthening your superid is when you can re-reason your 3rd and 4th functions to fit. But my 3rd and 4th functions still are part of what I am and always will be.
    On the topic of duality, I think we're forgetting that the id is supplemental to the superego as the ego is to the superid. Your dual has in their 7th and 8th functions the same functions are your superid, and are supplemental to each other. This relationship goes both ways. Now the question is: Do duals really strengthen your superid or just compensate for it automatically? I would say, in most cases, the latter. One of the problems of the idea of 'duality' is the 'unlearning' principal. They say you end up relying on your dual's id for your superego(thats when your dual automatically takes over and starts talking, and you don't really want to speak). I guess it depends on external factors here...if you go places without your dual, you still are limited by your superego and don't have the dual's help. Do you copy their id to your superego? Do you try to use their defenses for yourself? and... vice versa for your dual when they are without you?
    Personally, I don't try to develop my personality artificially, I don't believe in such a thing. Life will happen to me, and my personality will develop on it's own, as it has for ages to other people. 'Individuation' as Jung described it as is very very similar to 'developing your weaknesses(superego, superid)' as we are talking about. It's about defying the boundaries (for your type) of society(however it affects you) and becoming more of an individual, less of a type or archetype. Individuation usually happens as life progresses, with healthy people. Individuation always comes with pain and isn't a fun process. Just like life.

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    I have noticed that by becoming more aware of my third function, , a whole new world starts to open up.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
    -- Mark Twain

    "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
    -- Confucius

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    Yes! And it's refreshing, too.

    I get tired of

    This is why I think the natural drive to to stretch and develop weaker ares.

    The idea that it's easier to teach logic than emotion is compelling. Perhaps that's partly why socionics was invented? To try to help logical types improve our emotional relating? :wink:
    Entp
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