Results 1 to 29 of 29

Thread: ISFjs covering up their motivations and lying

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default ISFjs covering up their motivations and lying

    Why would an ISFj feel the need to not disclose their true rational behind major life choices (such as moving across state lines), and instead present a seemingly plausible (though not ultimately true) reason? I could understand an ISFj doing so to people with whom they no longer wish to associate, however, what would compel an ISFj to lie in such a manner to family and close friends?

    I'm confused...
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  2. #2
    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I remember once or twice when my life got so chaotic and uncontrollable that I felt like the best thing to do was just to push everyone out of my life and move away or just completely withdraw in. Maybe that is what this person was experiencing maybe not but if that is the real reason then he probably just does not want to hurt yours and his close friends/families feelings. He either thinks he wants to get away from everyone (or actually does want to) but he doesn't want to hurt thier feelings by telling them that he/she doesn't want to be around them anymore. It is easier to come up with an excuse than to hurt the feelings of the people you care about.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

  3. #3
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Is this your really close friend ISFJ :wink:

    Well my mom is an ISFJ. She doesn't lie much but when she does she is not aware of the fact that lie-ing is a very bad thing to do.
    For us INTP's it's a sin. For them, well they just laugh about it.

    But most of the times ISFJ are trustworthy.

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    LYING AND YOU

    AND ISFJS

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thanks very much for your replies, everyone, especially CoolGuy.

    So, yeah, the ISFj to which I refer is my girlfriend, and yeah.

    Thanks.
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  6. #6
    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Glad to help
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

  7. #7
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What about going with her?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  8. #8
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What about going with her?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    What about going with her?
    Not an option, besides, she's already moved.

    She didn't like it too much when I told her that I decided she was lying to me, and didn't want to talk to her, in order to figure things out. I'm the only person she's told her actual reasons for moving, and she feels like I've betrayed her trust by "throwing it back" in her face; ugh. At least we agree that we have miscommunication issues... Goddamn j/p conflicts!!!

    *EDIT*

    Any advice on how to get her to realize that I haven't betrayed her trust would be GREATLY appreciated.
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    For us INTP's it's a sin. For them, well they just laugh about it.
    I would disagree. In case of INTp's, it variates a lot how dishonest the person is. There's potentiality of an INTp being highly devious. And also INTp's have natural skills of being the best liars.

    But to the original question, to add to what already has been said:

    - She might be unsure of her motives.
    - Or deluding herself, because she doesn't want to admit the real reasons.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

    INTp

  11. #11
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Perhaps it's not wanting to reveal one's true feelings due to feeling vulnerable? Perhaps it's to spare someone else's feelings (whether or not it actually accomplishes that)?

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2005
    TIM
    D-LSI-Ti 1w9 sp/sx
    Posts
    11,586
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I seldom lie, though I used to chain-lie when I was wee.

  13. #13
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drd252
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    What about going with her?
    Not an option, besides, she's already moved.

    She didn't like it too much when I told her that I decided she was lying to me, and didn't want to talk to her, in order to figure things out. I'm the only person she's told her actual reasons for moving, and she feels like I've betrayed her trust by "throwing it back" in her face; ugh. At least we agree that we have miscommunication issues... Goddamn j/p conflicts!!!

    *EDIT*

    Any advice on how to get her to realize that I haven't betrayed her trust would be GREATLY appreciated.
    Act like you didn't, then after she's back in a good mood, excuse yourself.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    For us INTP's it's a sin. For them, well they just laugh about it.
    I would disagree. In case of INTp's, it variates a lot how dishonest the person is. There's potentiality of an INTp being highly devious. And also INTp's have natural skills of being the best liars.

    But to the original question, to add to what already has been said:

    - She might be unsure of her motives.
    - Or deluding herself, because she doesn't want to admit the real reasons.
    Yeah, in the aftermath she revealed that she didn't really have her motives solidified and couldn't express them in words, which is why i interpreted her half-rationalized motives as lies in light of her fully-rationalized motives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Perhaps it's not wanting to reveal one's true feelings due to feeling vulnerable? Perhaps it's to spare someone else's feelings (whether or not it actually accomplishes that)?
    Exactly, she felt vulnerable in revealing her motives to me, and the ensuing chaos resulted from me totally misinterpreting the situation.

    @FDG:
    First she felt betrayed, then she was mad, I apologized, then she was just hurt; now I think everything is alright

    Am I correct in identifying this situation as a j/p conflict? Or is it more like my just jumping to conclusions, and hurting her , or something?
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  15. #15
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,624
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    No it's because both of you are negativists introverts in my opinion. For example a positivist extravert would have reacted in a different way (actually two ways: either pushing the situation towards another direction, or completely adapting to the new situation)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ugh, i'm going to have to read up on the negativist/positivist thing; I don't agree with it, from what little I remember from briefly reading about it.
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  17. #17

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    4
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy89
    I remember once or twice when my life got so chaotic and uncontrollable that I felt like the best thing to do was just to push everyone out of my life and move away or just completely withdraw in. Maybe that is what this person was experiencing maybe not but if that is the real reason then he probably just does not want to hurt yours and his close friends/families feelings. He either thinks he wants to get away from everyone (or actually does want to) but he doesn't want to hurt thier feelings by telling them that he/she doesn't want to be around them anymore. It is easier to come up with an excuse than to hurt the feelings of the people you care about.
    There was a lot going on with me back home, and I didn't really think that anyone really needed to know the full reasons. Thank you for you insight. You explained it better than I could have.
    ISFj

  18. #18
    machintruc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,252
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ESI aren't really liars, they're just manipulators... For example, my ESI father likes to make others feel guilty...

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    How are lying an manipulating different???

    By lying, one influences others in a manner inconsistent with the facts, or manipulates them; one cannot manipulate another without skewing or obscuring the truth.
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  20. #20
    machintruc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,252
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drd252
    How are lying an manipulating different???

    By lying, one influences others in a manner inconsistent with the facts, or manipulates them; one cannot manipulate another without skewing or obscuring the truth.
    You're not obligated to lie to manipulate. Was Hitler a liar ?

  21. #21
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    [quote="machintruc"]
    Quote Originally Posted by drd252

    You're not obligated to lie to manipulate. Was Hitler a liar ?
    Uh, yeah, Hitler told a lie here and there. Are you serious?
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  22. #22

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    Quote Originally Posted by drd252
    How are lying an manipulating different???

    By lying, one influences others in a manner inconsistent with the facts, or manipulates them; one cannot manipulate another without skewing or obscuring the truth.
    You're not obligated to lie to manipulate. Was Hitler a liar ?
    GTFO, are you stupid???
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA.
    TIM
    INTj
    Posts
    4,497
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc

    You're not obligated to lie to manipulate. Was Hitler a liar ?
    Uh, yeah, Hitler told a lie here and there. Are you serious?


    hitler probably accurately portrayed his internal feelings.

  24. #24
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    You're not obligated to lie to manipulate. Was Hitler a liar ?
    Hitler did not lie as to his global views, which he expressed accurately in Mein Kampf, but he lied like hell to individuals.

    To cite just one example, just ask Stalin, with whom Hitler had a pact of non-aggression.

    Oh, and when he conned conservative politicians like Von Papen when Hitler agreed to head a "coalition" cabinet in 1933.

    Etc.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  25. #25
    Creepy-Diana

    Default

    .

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc
    ESI aren't really liars, they're just manipulators... For example, my ESI father likes to make others feel guilty...
    Okay, all kidding aside, where does this idea that ESI's are manipulators come from? (Besides machintruc's father that is)
    Yes, it doesn't seem to me like ESIs would be inclined to be a manipulative type, I would think that they'd despise manipulation.
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  27. #27
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    the NF club is probably the most manipulative IMO.

    manipulation is certainly not a core trait of an ISFJ.

  28. #28

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    The desert
    Posts
    275
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno
    the NF club is probably the most manipulative IMO.

    manipulation is certainly not a core trait of an ISFJ.
    Agreed.
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

    Drum 'n' Bass head

    GorillaSound.net

  29. #29

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    14
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy89
    I remember once or twice when my life got so chaotic and uncontrollable that I felt like the best thing to do was just to push everyone out of my life and move away or just completely withdraw in. Maybe that is what this person was experiencing maybe not but if that is the real reason then he probably just does not want to hurt yours and his close friends/families feelings. He either thinks he wants to get away from everyone (or actually does want to) but he doesn't want to hurt thier feelings by telling them that he/she doesn't want to be around them anymore. It is easier to come up with an excuse than to hurt the feelings of the people you care about.
    Yes, this describes how I see things at times as well. The withdrawal would feel like my only option.

    When I was growing up, it seemed impossible to hurt anyone's feelings. But then I realized that truth is important too, even if it must hurt. It also helped to realize that not everyone was as thin-skinned as I was, and should be able to handle the truth if told with consideration and grace. If they cannot handle it, that is not my responsibility, no matter what their relation to me. That would be their own issue.

    ISFjs are not likely to be emotionally manipulative (at least, not intentionally, which is what manipulation is, anyway). Any perceived manipulation has probably been misunderstood as such. But ISFjs do strive to be honest about expressing their feelings when they can and when necessary in order to enhance communication. And our feelings are not always easy to articulate while in gestation.

    Alpha SFs can be expert at emotional manipulation. Many enjoy it. Then would follow the beta NFs.
    ISFj-Fi

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •