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Thread: Discussion of Gulenko's Cognitive Styles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    I have an ESE friend on that I get to observe on facebook. Even though he wants a stable life, he often ends up doing reckless things and landing himself in deep shit a lot of times due to his lack of foresight. Relationship problems, taking on too many unnecessary expenses and having trouble paying bills, putting himself at risk by having unprotected sex with multiple women, getting in car accidents, etc. Its with things like this where they need an LII who can help them see things from a sensible prospective and help them avoid getting into these sticky situations. I don't know any LIEs personally but I would imagine the same kind of thing applies for them in spite of their rationality.
    V-S: The most optimistic and risk taking cognition. V-S types are best characterized by extreme ups and downs in their lives. The keep searching for and doing new things without giving much attention to the potential negatives. Their lives are full of chaotic events, such as ESE having family drama, SLI engaging in delinquent behavior, LIE investing all his money into something then losing it, IEI trying to commit suicide, etc. V-S's main advantage is its high potential for reward and it's main disadvantage is its high risk. The duality between H-P and V-S is all about H-P being able to minimize risk while V-S maximizes potential for gain.
    How does IEI fit into your perception of VS since they don't lack foresight? Attempting suicide is not an IEI thing. It is probably a clinical depression or lack of impulse control thing. Optimistic, psychologically and emotionally healthy people don't usually try to off themselves.

    Even when I have acted a bit reckless I managed to come out on top and avoid many negative consequences that those without foresight might fall into. My ESE sister is actually pretty responsible. She is the youngest, owned her own home and paid off her car by 25. She might not have foresight but she has never gotten into serious trouble except for one time but that was because she trusted the wrong guy (when she liked guys). She is a "good girl". Probably had something to do with her being warned over and over by the rest of us. I think we scared her into being "good". The slightest hint of trouble and we removed her from the temptation when she was young. She might not have seen that the cute guy who she liked was not good for her but we did and as a family moved her 1000 miles away. She might have been mad at the time but a few months later when his gf was pregnant she understood our warnings.

    Any type could potentially engage in delinquent behavior. I don't have enough experience with LIE to comment on them though. Wouldn't reckless behavior be more related to instinct stacking than cognitive style?

    I was kind of reckless in my teens and and part of my twenties but I usually knew just what I could get away with and pull back at the limit. I am more cautious these days in comparison but still get a sense of what I can and can't do and still not get into serious trouble. I don't wear a seat belt because it is restrictive but I am subconsciously scanning for cops so I don't get a ticket. I have learned the one hand stealth seat belt technique, if I am at a light and see I will have no way to avoid being next the them. Usually not staring at the cop does the trick too.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...j3jqjha7G_KVeA
    Last edited by Aylen; 04-07-2016 at 04:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    How does IEI fit into your perception of VS since they don't lack foresight? Attempting suicide is not an IEI thing. It is probably a clinical depression or lack of impulse control thing. Optimistic, psychologically and emotionally healthy people don't usually try to off themselves.

    Even when I have acted a bit reckless I managed to come out on top and avoid many negative consequences that those without foresight might fall into. My ESE sister is actually pretty responsible. She is the youngest, owned her own home and paid off her car by 25. She might not have foresight but she has never gotten into serious trouble except for one time but that was because she trusted the wrong guy (when she liked guys). She is a "good girl". Probably had something to do with her being warned over and over by the rest of us. I think we scared her into being "good". The slightest hint of trouble and we removed her from the temptation when she was young. She might not have seen that the cute guy who she liked was not good for her but we did and as a family moved her 1000 miles away. She might have been mad at the time but a few months later when his gf was pregnant she understood our warnings.

    Any type could potentially engage in delinquent behavior. I don't have enough experience with LIE to comment on them though. Wouldn't reckless behavior be more related to instinct stacking than cognitive style?

    I was kind of reckless in my teens and and part of my twenties but I usually knew just what I could get away with and pull back at the limit. I am more cautious these days in comparison but still get a sense of what I can and can't do and still not get into serious trouble. I don't wear a seat belt because it is restrictive but I am subconsciously scanning for cops so I don't get a ticket. I have learned the one hand stealth seat belt technique, if I am at a light and see I will have no way to avoid being next the them. Usually not staring at the cop does the trick too.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...j3jqjha7G_KVeA
    IEI and SLI are a little more balanced towards H-P than ESE and LIE so it isn't as pronounced in them. I would argue suicide IS an IEI thing, not that all IEIs try to commit suicide just that they tend to do it slightly more then other types. I have no statistical proof for this of course, just an inference I made. Same goes for SLI and delinquency. I just don't see EII or LSI doing it as often as SLI. Its the deviations across types on a large scale they I'm looking at, rather then the absolutes.

    So anyway, to answer your question, I would say IEI displays V-S in their tendency to easily get upset and make things seem bigger then they really are. You yourself said somewhere that you got into a lot of fights when you where younger, I think that makes a good example of V-S "turbulence". Myself in comparison had a very uneventful childhood aside from things completely outside of my control such as my parents getting divorced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    IEI and SLI are a little more balanced towards H-P than ESE and LIE so it isn't as pronounced in them. I would argue suicide IS an IEI thing, not that all IEIs try to commit suicide just that they tend to do it slightly more then other types. I have no statistical proof for this of course, just an inference I made. Same goes for SLI and delinquency. I just don't see EII or LSI doing it as often as SLI. Its the deviations across types on a large scale they I'm looking at, rather then the absolutes.

    So anyway, to answer your question, I would say IEI displays V-S in their tendency to easily get upset and make things seem bigger then they really are. You yourself said somewhere that you got into a lot of fights when you where younger, I think that makes a good example of V-S "turbulence". Myself in comparison had a very uneventful childhood aside from things completely outside of my control such as my parents getting divorced.
    We will have to agree to disagree on suicide being higher in IEI than any other type. It just isn't type related. It is mental/emotional health related. Not to mention that socionics isn't a science backed by any reliable data so statistics would be subjectively based on the perceived cognition, in others, at best. I have known too many people who have succeeded over the years and only one IEI 9 (EII is possible for her but she is no longer around to analyze). Two of the females were ESI 6s, one EII 9 (in a suicide pact with her partner) and I am not sure of the other female but she was extroverted and logical. Of the men I know who succeeded, two Se egos, one SLI, one ILE,. Not sure of the others since I was a preteen/early teens and didn't know them well enough to even take a guess now. The people I know with the most attempts were an EIE male, (still alive) ESI female and IEI/EII (mentioned above). All had borderline personality disorder. The ESI 6 succeeded after many attempts because her doctors and nursing staff grew to dislike her and she was finally diagnosed with BPD for attention seeking suicide threats. Her suicide was vindictive and meant to punish others not herself. It worked.

    The only reason I can think that IEI would be perceived more likely to attempt is because they are more likely to talk about it than some of the other types. How many people have tried and never told another person? More likely that Fi and Fe egos will share their stories to help others. Logical types might be more inclined to keep it themselves because it is irrational and illogical to try to kill yourself for any reason to most people.

    What do you type the people you personally know who committed or attempted suicide?

    If anyone wants to take a shot at typing this famous list (kind of morbid but...) we might get be able to come up with rough statistics but I doubt if there would be any consensus on their types which means it probably wouldn't be useful to try and determine the statistics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicides


    Gender differences in suicide rates have been shown to be significant; there are highly asymmetric rates of attempted and completed suicidesbetween males and females.[1]
    The gap, also called the "gender paradox of suicidal behavior", can vary significantly among different countries.[2] Statistics indicate that males die by suicide more frequently than do females; however the prevalence of suicidal thoughts was higher among females than it was among males and there is no statistically significant difference for suicide planning or suicide attempts between the genders.[3][4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender...ces_in_suicide
    I read that male suicide can account for over 70% of all suicides at one of the links. I can't buy that the majority were IEI.

    I am sx first and grew up having to fight because of circumstances. If I hadn't I would have got no respect from the girls around me. It was an Se valuing environment. The bullies I dealt with daily included an ESI/SEE dynamic duo that hated me and decided they would make my life miserable until I fought back. They gave me respect after I did. They literally stalked me daily until I stood up for myself. That was the last time I was in a real fight. If things were different I may have never fought at all. I would not fight now unless it was to protect someone I loved or to get someone off me. I find people who fight for fun pretty repulsive unless they are into martial arts or other sport that requires fighting. I can't stand bullies and I had to face quite a few as a child. If you grew up where I did I am not sure if you wouldn't have fought as hard as me. If you didn't I would have been the type defending "you" if I was able. Ugh bullies.

    My anger as a child was completely justified and I downplayed it if anything. I was shy and quiet in comparison to my friends. I didn't like attention drawn to me. Tantrums draw attention. I have gone into rages when I let things build up but these weren't exactly things that the average person wouldn't snap on. I do play around and act mad though and pout but that is not what you are talking about. If I am upset I usually withdrawal until I can respond with clarity. I do not get upset easily or make something bigger than it is without good reason, in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It just isn't type related.
    You might want to know that this phrase drives me up a wall whenever I hear it. (>_<)

    I am firm believer that almost everything has some sort of butterfly effect on other things. You argue suicide has to do with mental illness and not type, but what about the relation between type and mental illness? Perhaps due to lack of physical activity and over absorption into their minds IEIs are more likely to develop a mental illness that will compel them to suicide compared to other types?

    I've been analyzing statistics for fun on competitive online games on sites like dotabuff for some time now. The one thing I've learned while doing so is there are so many ways one thing can indirectly effect another. For example a buff/nerf on a certain aspect of the game more often then not will effect something else that previously thought to be completely unrelated and now they need to nerf/buff that thing as well.

    I don't know anyone personally who has with a %100 certainty committed suicide.


    On the subject of bullying, it was never a problem for me throughout despite me being about as much as a friendless loner as you could be. Perhaps I just got lucky in comparison to you but I find that also long as you wear normal clothes, aren't horribly ugly and don't act overly eccentric that people will generally leave you alone. If that isn't enough to keep you off a bully's radar I would suggest giving them really pissed off looks every now and then and make them think you are a serial killer. Worked fine for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    You might want to know that this phrase drives me up a wall whenever I hear it. (>_<)

    I am firm believer that almost everything has some sort of butterfly effect on other things. You argue suicide has to do with mental illness and not type, but what about the relation between type and mental illness? Perhaps due to lack of physical activity and over absorption into their minds IEIs are more likely to develop a mental illness that will compel them to suicide compared to other types?

    I've been analyzing statistics for fun on competitive online games on sites like dotabuff for some time now. The one thing I've learned while doing so is there are so many ways one thing can indirectly effect another. For example a buff/nerf on a certain aspect of the game more often then not will effect something else that previously thought to be completely unrelated and now they need to nerf/buff that thing as well.

    I don't know anyone personally who has with a %100 certainty committed suicide.


    On the subject of bullying, it was never a problem for me throughout despite me being about as much as a friendless loner as you could be. Perhaps I just got lucky in comparison to you but I find that also long as you wear normal clothes, aren't horribly ugly and don't act overly eccentric that people will generally leave you alone. If that isn't enough to keep you off a bully's radar I would suggest giving them really pissed off looks every now and then and make them think you are a serial killer. Worked fine for me.


    I went to school with a bunch of entitled idiots who learned it from their parents. I participated once, in 5th grade, bullying a black girl who moved to my district from the wrong side of the railroad tracks (I know it sounds cliche but there were physical tracks). I lived on the border of a bad part of town (primarily white but they were poverty level), until my mom met my stepdad. Then we moved to another part of town. It was still kind of nice where we lived but it meant that I, being a curious sx type, would spend my summers crossing the tracks and choosing my friends there.

    When I did that to that girl I felt horrible for weeks after. I earned her friendship back and kept my other friends but I never bullied another classmate again. I became a defender of the bullied and the ignored. In third grade I went to an all black school district so I should have known better because I had one black boy who would make fun of me for everything. I never let him see me cry but I did when I got home and locked myself in the bathroom. Everyone said he had a crush on me but it didn't seem like it since he was kind of nasty about it. The worst part was I liked him and didn't understand why he was so mean to me and no one else. He was kind of popular though and didn't exclude me. He just made me feel bad for being white like it was my fault. I felt like I couldn't win either way because my white friends didn't consider my mom white because she "talked funny" with her accent. I did my best to fit in with black and white kids and the problem was most of then liked me but didn't like each other. I didn't like it when it happened to me and I turned around and did the same thing a couple years later to that girl to fit in with my "friends". She was excluded and mean practical jokes were played on her. I didn't verbally bully her but I did play a cruel joke on her and the worst part of doing it was that I orchestrated the whole prank to hide my own insecurity. I knew I was wrong.

    I didn't have to deal with much bullying of myself as much as I had to defend my little sister. She had a way of threatening kids with her big sister, when they bothered her. I was all she had to protect her at the time and she knew I would. I finally got accepted in the alternative school of misfits, who refused to go to public school, it was just a bunch of overly gifted creative types and stoners who struggled with truancy problems in public school. I finally liked school for the first time. My serious bullies came after I started dating. The girls didn't like the idea that we came from another side of town and "took their boyfriends". Even guys they wouldn't look at before we arrived were suddenly off limits. They all of sudden became prime dating material even though the girls ignored them, since middle school, from what I was told. Nothing like the new girls paying attention to the old guys to up their desirability.

    On the rest, agree to disagree except that certain people might be more prone to suicide by environmental and biological factors that cause depression. Those things don't discriminate and can effect even the most optimistic of types. Incidentally, if your idea of IEI attempting more than other types was influenced by the suicide of Sergei Yesenin, there are conspiracy theories claiming her was murdered, as per usual whenever someone of note dies by their own hand and the circumstances are murky. If it didn't influence you I am sure it influences someone to think it. Like a butterfly effect it might inspire at least a couple of people to attempt it just reading that he was IEI and killed himself.

    It inspired copycat suicides at the time.

    A theory exists that Yesenin's death was actually a murder by NKVD agents who staged it to look like suicide. The novel "Yesenin"[4] published by Vitali Bezrukov is devoted to this version of Yesenin's death. In 2005 TV serial "Sergey Yesenin" based on this novel (with Sergey Bezrukov playing Yesenin) was shown onChannel One Russia. The film was criticized by forensic experts who found its arguments unconvincing.[5][6][7][8]
    Facts tending to support the assassination hypothesis were discovered by Stanislav Kunyaev and Sergey Kunyaev in the final chapter of their biography of Yesenin.[9] Among them:


    1) At the time of his death, Yesenin was actively working on his collected works. He was not drinking after his departure from Moscow and was enthusiastic about leaving the capital and working on other new texts. A project he was dreaming about was close to success: to start editing a literature magazine of his own. Most of his manuscripts were missing from his hotel room and had never been discovered (including his recently announced novella known under the work title When I was a boy… and his winter poems from the last months). Yesenin preferred to be well ordered in his work; but his hotel room was in extreme chaos, with his things scattered on the floor and with signs of a fight.


    2) Yesenin had a fresh wound on his shoulder, one on his forehead and a bruise under one of his eyes. A few weeks before his death, many of his friends claimed that he had been carrying a revolver, but this weapon was never discovered. His jacket was missing, and he had to be covered with a sheet from the hotel. The ligature with which he purportedly hanged himself, made from a belt that later disappeared, was reportedly not a hanging one: it was only holding the body to one side, to the right. Nevertheless no further investigations were documented to have been made in this direction. The room where he died was also not examined.


    3) The photos of the hotel room and the body were not made by a police photographer. None of his close friends (e.g. Klyuev, Valerian Pravduhin, Ilya Sadofiev) was taken to see the room. Neither were they officially interrogated, while Ehrlich reportedly did not seem aggrieved by the events (Ehrlich was sentenced to death and shot in 1937). The work known as his last poem is sometimes considered as written in 1924 and dedicated to the fellow poet Viktor Manuilov.


    4) The medical documentation does not include the supposed hour of death. Later experts considered it careless and point out that the language is uncharacteristic for an experienced doctor like the one involved, Alexander Gilyarevsky, who died in 1931.


    5) The fact that Yesenin remained in the Hotel Angleterre, where there was a regular strong police presence, is still unexplained, given the poet’s late negativism towards the authorities and his persistent feeling that they were following him and threatening him, shared with friends on various occasions. Moreover, he was not registered in the hotel, as well as his friend, the writer Georgy Ustinov, which may be interpreted as a sign that the visit may have already been prepared and planned by others. (Georgy Ustinov also reportedly killed himself in 1932.)
    The Ryazan State University is named in his honour.[10]


    Cultural impact[edit]

    Yesenin's suicide triggered an epidemic of copycat suicides by his mostly female fans. For example, Galina Benislavskaya, his ex-girlfriend, killed herself by his graveside in December 1926.
    I am imaging hoards of IE 4s, in Russia, offing themselves like sacrificial virgins voluntarily jumping into a volcano. Killing yourself because someone you don't even know does just seems so odd to me. I might even romanticize dead poets now and then but I wouldn't off myself because they did. That is just mind boggling. So much for 4 uniqueness. How unoriginal... I am just assuming they were 4 but maybe they were 6s or even 9s. They might not have been IEIs at all. It was just an idea.

    Anyway, I did fight my middle sister a lot as kids. A lot of siblings fight. I didn't fight my youngest sister ever. She was like my baby. I felt horrible just arguing with her but I did smack her once. The look on her face killed me and I never did it again.

    I just get a bit irritated seeing people attributing serious psychological problems to type when other things are influencing behavior. It is basically turning a person's whole being into a pathological disorder instead of one of 16 types. I mean do you think most people on this site are predisposed to mental illness?? I have seen it said here many times. Are logical intuitive introverted boys more likely to shoot up a school when they snap because they have Se polr and were bullied? It would seem like it if you read chatbox sometimes. Maybe IEI think about it more but doesn't mean they will attempt. I imagine most people on the forum have thought about it.

    1. Two thirds of people who die by suicide have symptoms consistent with major depression at the time of death, and people with major depression have a suicidal risk of twenty times that of people with no mood disorder.

    2. People with bipolar disorder have a suicide risk of fifteen times that of people with no mood disorder. Studies show that in the majority of cases suicide occurs in the depressed phase with the most powerful predictors of suicide being a previous suicide attempt and feelings of hopelessness.

    3. People with schizophrenia come next in increased risk of suicide with about 5% lifetime risk. Predictors of suicide among people with schizophrenia include a past history of suicide attempt; comorbid mood disorders and substance abuse; multiple admissions during the past year; distressing persistent symptoms; fear of deterioration with hopelessness and loss of faith in treatment, and having hallucinations, often auditory, such as voices commanding them to kill themselves (command hallucinations).

    4. About 40% of those with alcohol dependence will attempt suicide, and up to 7% will die by suicide.

    5. Comorbidity is common in psychiatric disorders and that increases the risk of suicide. That includes substance abuse comorbid with any other major mental disorder, and depressive disorder comorbid with schizophrenia.

    Ok, I have exhausted my platform on suicide. Thanks for responding.
    Last edited by Aylen; 04-07-2016 at 03:28 PM.

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    @Muddytextures

    IEI trying to commit suicide. Do you mean that metaphorically, as in they ... what? Its a bit off putting, really, and kind of negates V-S cognition in them, boiling it down to a sort of self-destructive tendencies.
    "Destiny is all."

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    @Muddytextures

    IEI trying to commit suicide. Do you mean that metaphorically, as in they ... what? Its a bit off putting, really, and kind of negates V-S cognition in them, boiling it down to a sort of self-destructive tendencies.
    If he did in fact mean metaphorically I probably would have agreed and that means I went on a suicide tangent for nothing. I just felt like every other type got a relatively benign assessment and then IEI gets, suicide. It did seem more negative compared to the rest and I am not sure how that is directly related to VS cognition from what I read in the article. I didn't read the whole article and maybe there was a section that led him to believe it would manifest as suicide attempts. I would rather have been called the delinquent tbh.

    Obviously suicide is a subject I take very seriously.

    Edit: I have metaphorically killed off an aspect of my personality that no longer served me. I could have integrated that aspect but it was just useless. I mourned the loss and moved on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    If he did in fact mean metaphorically I probably would have agreed and that means I went on a suicide tangent for nothing. I just felt like every other type got a relatively benign assessment and then IEI gets, suicide. It did seem more negative compared to the rest and I am not sure how that is directly related to VS cognition from what I read in the article. I didn't read the whole article and maybe there was a section that led him to believe it would manifest as suicide attempts. I would rather have been called the delinquent tbh.

    Obviously suicide is a subject I take very seriously.

    Edit: I have metaphorically killed off an aspect of my personality that no longer served me. I could have integrated that aspect but it was just useless. I mourned the loss and moved on.
    Well I guess IEI is known for the inherent nihilism, so he might be referring to that? Although what, if any thing at all, that has to do with V-S cognition styles beats me. I think it was more a a jokey jab more then anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    @Muddytextures

    IEI trying to commit suicide. Do you mean that metaphorically, as in they ... what? Its a bit off putting, really, and kind of negates V-S cognition in them, boiling it down to a sort of self-destructive tendencies.
    I did in fact mean it literally but I suppose it can extend metaphorically as well, such as IEIs changing cultural identity and discarding past affinities. I know it may seem a bit harsh to make these sort of correlations to type but I'm just putting out what I believe to be the most truthful. As said before there is no actual factual proof either way so Aylen and I will just have to agree to disagree on this and move on.


    @Aylen I did not read up on Yesenin and find out he allegedly committed suicide prior to this so my opinion on IEIs and suicide wasn't influenced by him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Well I guess IEI is known for the inherent nihilism, so he might be referring to that? Although what, if any thing at all, that has to do with V-S cognition styles beats me. I think it was more a a jokey jab more then anything.

    I didn't take it as jokey and I guess I took it personal but I am fine with it now. I know IEI 4s, 6s and 9s who have considered it but are vehemently opposed to attempting under any circumstances. He is not IEI so would have no idea what it is like inside an IEI's psyche. It might look very alien to some types. He explained his view and we are agreeing to disagree. I just didn't understand why someone would assume there was something so inherently off and defective in an IEI's psyche that they would attribute something like suicide as a natural expression.

    I know many types who have considered it and did not attempt it. it Is is all about the mental/emotional and even physical health and that is my belief formed by personal experience with people who have attempted and succeeded. I have stayed with a guy because he held me emotional hostage with threats of suicide if I broke up with him. I knew they would follow through because when I tried to leave they attempted, more than once, and I gave them the attention they were seeking afterwards, until I finally got sick of it. They were not IEI and they are still very much alive so they got over it. I am more likely to wish myself dead (under extreme circumstances) than try it at this point of my life but a wish will not come true if you do not take action. It is not a goal of mine to die in dramatic seppuku and that would take a lot of inner will to even attempt. Not an IEI thing.

    BUT, if I had a deadly, incurable disease that caused physical pain that could not be controlled sufficiently I would be so out of here. This plan is something I researched when I went through a bad experience after surgery and because of physical pain I didn't see a light at the end. The doctors asked if I had an opiate habit because I was requiring so much morphine but I didn't. I was clean when I went in for emergency surgery and they knew it from my blood tests but could not explain why I needed so much. They gave it to me but didn't like it. Obviously I didn't do it but it was comforting to read the book final exit. i had never heard of it until then and it is an old book. After I read it I knew I had an escape plan, if needed, then I got on with living and things got much, much, much better. I think in the same circumstance I was in, anyone might consider it seriously. I just had the foresight to do my research and give myself more time to heal.

    If he had said it was an 4 thing I might not have given an argument at all but maybe I would have since it would still be kept in the realm of romanticized thought with most 4s.

    Exhibit A:



    Edit: That song is so cathartic even when I am not in that kind of romanticised mood. lol

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    fascinating

    Social inclusiveness seems to be an integral part of C-D and D-A, especially C-D. Attributed to "evolutionary" (global > personal) thinking style. And they're praised for their intellectual capabilities in advanced fields of knowledge. Because they write for other people, not themselves. And that's why their social/intellectual potential is seemingly endless. From my understanding, C-D steamrolls through life. Shaped by their past experiences and society at large. They're like society's puppets. Pretty much anti-Fight Club mentality, except it's expressed in Fight Club mentality. Susceptible to brainwashing. Mindless drones. But it's the most confident and capable of making waves in its environment, so long as the individual links match up. Cause-and-effect relationships. Strives for air-tight arguments. Perfectionism. Builds on the positive, no matter how imaginary. Anchors in space. Childhood memories. They're like pillars of society, in a way, which ties into their susceptibility to brainwashing, hence why they're labeled "social". Community values.

    D-A can be summarized as the synthesis of opposites. Negativism pushes them toward dealing with contradictions and paradoxes. And then finding a golden middle point between them. Highly critical. Successful programmers = "if-then-else" statements. Which they believe is the core of any algorithm. Creative problem solvers. Built for debates, juggling two opposing POVs. Most subtle and flexible style. Susceptible to brainwashing, but where C-D takes it like they just dropped the soap, D-A attempts to resist destructive influences. But eventually they buckle under the pressure and lose their sanity. Self-destruction. Suicide Idealization. Hereditary mental illneses. (Interesting how this works with C-D's childhood memories). EIE, in particular, has no protection. Prone to "imprint vulnerability". This comprises the most blatant critics of the socion. Their critical nature increases before... Ticking time-bomb. EIE and ILI are the intellectuals of society. Namely EIE. Reminds me of Aesop Rock's "One of Four". Sooner or later, D-A scholars embrace faith.

    There's a characteristic detachment from reality in the aforementioned cognition styles. And I get the inkling that C-D types have anchors in space. Childhood memories. This is what helps them keep their "eyes on the prize". Which is useful, considering the innate instability of D-A cognition. However, the reverse is true for H-P and V-S. They're attached to reality - rather, they have a firm understanding of reality - and detached from their past.

    H-P is Pablo Picasso's "Bull" in a nutshell. This is the antithesis to C-D cognition. C-D includes EVERYTHING, while H-P strips it down to its bare essentials. Over-simplifying the information, hence conflict relations. Easy to distinguish between xLE, xEE, LxI, ExI. Like a sculptor chipping away at marble. "Shibui" in Japanese. Thrives in chaos. Otherwise there's little use for this cognition. They were compared to sociopaths in the comments section of the original article and TBH I agree. "Failure to latch". You get the impression that H-P and V-S are something of social outcasts. Neither is sufficiently appreciated in society. Because they're involutionary (personal > global). Ergo it's not even geared toward society. There's little mention of social or intellectual success, it's like they willingly discard past/external factors in order to make a point right here, right now. And where D-A is active self-destruction, H-P is passive self-destruction. Least studied cognition, probably because there's very little to study. Impervious to conditioning. Probably holds up well under torture.

    LII: *reads long article written by LSI* [summarizes in 2 sentences, followed by a dismissal]
    LSI: "???!??!??! LOL"

    ESI: "He's a shithead."
    EII: "That was ONE time. What about all the good he di-"
    ESI: "He's a shithead."

    OR

    EII: "He may have done all those terrible, awful, unforgivable things... but this one time, he didn't..."
    ESI: "Eenie, meanie, minie, moe. Shithead, shithead, shithead. I forget how the rest goes."

    SLE: "You're &^$&*#^#*&$^&*^$#*&$#" [comprises principles to win]
    ILE: *holds back*
    time passes
    SLE: *provokes ILE*
    ILE: [drags SLE's argument, reputation, and pretty much everything else through the dirt]
    SLE: "...Yeah well, you're &^$&*#^#*&$^&*^$#*&$#"
    Here lies SLE, consider it burned.

    IEE: "He texted me a capital L instead of a lower-case L, and this was after I texted him a lower-case L. Is he being condescending?"
    SEE: [leaves room]

    V-S are opportunistic risk-takers. Unearthing the underlying order in chaos. Imagine projecting socionics "Quadra Progression" framework over reality. That's their brain. They analyze the framework and input themselves where they can be swept up toward victory. The Butterfly Effect. These are the blind optimists. But their optimism is so blind that they don't even consider their losses, "losses". Every positive is reaped for maximum benefit. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. But where C-D ("Static") has a goal in mind, V-S ("Dynamic") doesn't. They'll literally take whatever they can get. "Everyone else died, but hey, I survived!" It's beautiful how V-S cognition works alongside H-P cognition. V-S goes on a circulatory tangent and H-P just summarizes everything in a few sentences. And vice versa. The more life experience V-S accumulates, the more effective their cognition becomes. It seems that V-S believes in free will, to an extent, whereas H-P seems deterministic in nature. This might be why SLI grows quieter over time, finding fewer words to express what they wanna say. Until eventually they can get whatever they want without saying anything at all. (Exaggerated for effect, of course)

    It's interesting to note that Gulenko pointed out dual-compatibility between H-P and V-S, but not between C-D and D-A. Dual cognition styles can emulate each other, they'll just have a distinct preference for one over the other. And something about subtypes which amplifies and downplays your preference for each form of cogntion. And you're most drawn toward your dual cognition's style. And this is precisely why your supervisor's words shouldn't hurt you.

    And look at how perfectly Forms of Cognition lines up with what Gulenko hypothesized about Stress Resistance and their relation to socionics types:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...stance-Gulenko
    Last edited by wasp; 10-16-2017 at 11:37 PM.
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    Ok, will go through this more later and explain better but this part is wrong -
    Quote Originally Posted by wasp
    This is the antithesis to C-D cognition. C-D includes EVERYTHING, while H-P strips it down to its bare essentials.
    CD doesn't have anything to do with including everything - it just means endpoint follows from beginning point in direct links. Whether those links are even expressed may or may not happen. A person may count by 5s or 10s instead of by ones - the progression still happens the same. (Think if x+5, then 10 follows 5 for counting by 5s as an example. It's still if-then)

    HP isn't stripping things down either - what it's doing is making a kind of holistic model of something. It might help to realize that Gulenko is LII. This long inclusive article is a product of his HP thinking.

    Edit: I personally don't see much in the social aspects to consider, and would only look at the cognitive aspects. You can see it all with just two aspects. Process/Result and Static/Dynamic or with three by adding Convergence/Divergence.

    Process: follows this definition of theorem: a general proposition not self-evident but proved by a chain of reasoning; a truth established by means of accepted truths. So, if you've taken geometry and done proofs - it's like that. You take what is known, and build from that to establish what else can be known from these facts. You're using what is known to prove or show what is unknown. <- this sentence may have actually been in the paper, I'd have to re-look.

    Result: Complex structure represented by simplest form - generalized diagrams, models stripped of details. Okay, for this think of all those charts that Gulenko makes and all of the various models his ideas have gone through. You may also remember thehotelambush making pictorial models of socionics ideas, as well as anndelise doing the same. It is broad overview kind of thinking. Holistic. Seeing the whole thing at once.

    -Note. People do not stay in only one mode of thinking. They use other modes. When Gulenko or hotel or anndelise explain their models or overview ideas they have to switch into the reasoning mode, showing the links created from the model. This is why Gulenko's paper is so long and inclusive, it takes the picture he's developed and tries to then reason out each part. If he had started only from what was known and built on it - it would look different, much simpler, more like reinin's book. When Gulenko just shows a model, the model itself is not very detailed, it is a holistic summary view.

    A very simplified way of comparing the two might be reasoning vs gestalt.

    Being able to sum things up doesn't mean you're taking a whole picture view, and in fact listen to any IEE (hp thinking) talk for awhile and you'll see they usually do quite the opposite of summing up, and that has to do with negativist ie divergence, vs positivist which is convergence. Converging allows for the summing up - coming to singular points from the whole. Diverging expands outward instead, going in different directions.
    Last edited by squark; 10-17-2017 at 12:36 AM.

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    oh

    r u sure

    I agree with the part about holistic representations (hence "holographic") but in doing so they chip off a lot of excess information. Even in the examples provided by silke it mentions, "Art is the elimination of the unnecessary." (Pablo Picasso) Which is an example of how H-P cognition thinks. Holographs are translucent. I imagine that's why H-P cognition is paired up with V-S cognition because V-S types see the holograms but they recognize order within it and they slyly maneuver through the holes in order to come into good favor with H-P types. Their thoughts catalyze themselves, boom boom boom, like "a-ha" over and over again. Now imagine that except in the interpersonal realm. H-P is described as isolated from society and the only types capable of coercing them into letting their guard down are V-S types. Like someone navigating through a room of lasers.

    And I didn't mean that C-D cognition outright states everything, but that they try to take everything into consideration. I thought this perfectly described why EII are renowned for their ability to write comprehensive character evaluations, while ESI are renowned for having quick tongues and putting people in their place with harsh quips. Long-term vs short-term. The former tries to understand the whole, using objective standards as a frame of reference, whereas the latter understands the whole, somewhat, but their "whole" is entirely subjective and it's like... If you look for bad everywhere, then you will inevitably find bad everywhere. They're painting a picture of a bad person. Like right here:

    I don't really focus on what they're doing or why. It's just not important to me. I'll meet someone for the first time and pay hardly any attention to what they're doing, tbh. Usually people say the wrong things or look awkward at first because they're nervous, shy, or just not open to me yet—I'm not going to analyze the things they say. It just isn't of much significance to me. However, I do tend to gather impressions of people when I first meet them, but it's by observing something else. I suppose you could call it a person's undertone? Like if you meet some girl who acts extroverted and bubbly, it's not hard for me to look past that and see one general face to her—a more solid, internal, static thing that serves as a core despite her outward expressions. I guess it's like spotting depression in someone even if they act like they're on top of the world. And yeah, if I do meet someone that looks like they're acting against who they are, it feels obvious to me. That sort of impression tends to last too, and I'll wonder if they'll ever start showing who [I think] they are. And even though I'm not going to really judge them for it, I still can't get over the sense of internal friction they give off, and I feel like I can't get close to people like that. I do trust my impressions, though. How I feel about them can and probably will change over time, but who I think they are pretty much stays the same.
    It's like they're waiting for the world to burn. And even if it happens hundreds of years from now, they'll still think they somehow predicted it.
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    The only way to see the whole thing at once is to eliminate some details, but that doesn't mean they're all that good at summing things up. Take stratieveskaya's descriptions for example. She's ESI and so HP, and they are the longest descriptions of anyone, not very to-the-point at all.

    Edit to add: and it helps to read her articles in a VS kind of way, absorbing all the material and letting ideas emerge from it, condensing out of the fog so to speak.
    Last edited by squark; 10-17-2017 at 01:37 AM.

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    But I don't think that contradicts anything that I've written since the reference to Pablo Picasso's "Bull" describes perfectly what you've written about Gulenko's cognition wherein he has an idea which he then fleshes out. It's hollowed out, like a hologram. And the part I wrote about how people can shift between different styles of cognition. The example I posted wasn't a neat summary either. That's why it conflicts with C-D cognition because C-D cognition is about cause-and-effect relationships where each individual link plays an integral role in the overall understanding of the subject matter. C-D cognition = evolutionary: "they think procedurally without overlooking parts and intermediate details." So it's the anti-thesis to H-P cognition, from my understanding.



    Hence why H-P creates the framework and V-S weaves through the framework. That's what I wrote in my last post. So we're in agreement there, too.
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    The part I was specifically taking issue with was with attributing summing-up with HP as that better fits positivism. As in I think this example should be flipped:
    Quote Originally Posted by wasp
    LII: *reads long article written by LSI* [summarizes in 2 sentences]
    By following the reasoning CD can converge the various angles in HP to a singular conclusion like VS can, but with a different method. VS takes the gestalt, and CD uses deduction to arrive there.

    But yes, I agree the bull and simplified model is a good representation of HP. Explaining that model to others though is where they can get wordy.
    Last edited by squark; 10-17-2017 at 11:53 AM.

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    @wasp, sorry I take that back lol. It doesn't show the different perspectives that the holographic type is looking at things from which is an important part of their cognition. There should be a view of the bull from various different angles, superimposed on top of each other to be a more accurate representation. (The or-or, either-or, one hand and the other hand quality they have)

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    The part I was specifically taking issue with was with attributing summing-up with HP as that better fits positivism. As in I think this example should be flipped:

    By following the reasoning CD can converge the various angles in HP to a singular conclusion like VS can, but with a different method. VS takes the gestalt, and CD uses deduction to arrive there.

    But yes, I agree the bull and simplified model is a good representation of HP. Explaining that model to others though is where they can get wordy.
    ohhh

    okay that makes sense. I think that was around the section where I saw math and my brain temporarily shut down out of fear

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    @wasp, sorry I take that back lol. It doesn't show the different perspectives that the holographic type is looking at things from which is an important part of their cognition. There should be a view of the bull from various different angles, superimposed on top of each other to be a more accurate representation. (The or-or, either-or, one hand and the other hand quality they have)
    fSDHFGDSJFDShfgdhfdsh

    But I think that might be a solid depiction of what it'd look like pre-superimposition. The general idea ("framework") prior to being fleshed out.

    Because I feel like the only way Picasso could've drawn the bull from various different angles would've been with the use of a tangible 3D form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    ohhh

    okay that makes sense. I think that was around the section where I saw math and my brain temporarily shut down out of fear



    fSDHFGDSJFDShfgdhfdsh

    But I think that might be a solid depiction of what it'd look like pre-superimposition. The general idea ("framework") prior to being fleshed out.

    Because I feel like the only way Picasso could've drawn the bull from various different angles would've been with the use of a tangible 3D form.
    Here's a socionics example of this (but anndelise's pictures aren't showing up for me anymore, only hotelambush's are. both of them fit the HP style though imo) http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-Model-A-Cube

    It's a simplified visual representation of all the relations and interactions at once.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Here's a socionics example of this (but anndelise's pictures aren't showing up for me anymore, only hotelambush's are. both of them fit the HP style though imo) http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...e-Model-A-Cube

    It's a simplified visual representation of all the relations and interactions at once.



    ^ That up there would be an example of viewing the same subject/object/theory from multiple different angles, right? It's like he's even (inadvertently) quoting what Gulenko wrote: "LII grasps the problem from opposite sides, mentally rotating the situation in three dimensions around its semantic axes."

    That's crazyyy. It reminds me of when I drew a picture of my brain a few days ago:

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post



    ^ That up there would be an example of viewing the same subject/object/theory from multiple different angles, right? It's like he's even (inadvertently) quoting what Gulenko wrote: "LII grasps the problem from opposite sides, mentally rotating the situation in three dimensions around its semantic axes."
    yes! =D

    That's crazyyy. It reminds me of when I drew a picture of my brain a few days ago:

    LOL!

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    i tend to think of DA as trying to think in terms of a super structure into which most things can be plugged in, in other words it examines the mechanics of relationships, not unlike the music theory that gave us the concept of scales based on overtones... whereas CD tries to think of the best "leading note" and proceeds from there. DA will tell you what can and will happen based on that note, but offers little help when it comes to choosing. CD works hard developing a "melody" but has no real concept of the broader constraints... of course this is colored by feeling v thinking, I think this most applies to SEE/ILI and EII and LSE. for something like EIE and LSI things change. In other words, CD feeling is good at charting a path, DA is good at explaining whats going on in the broader sense and why the CD path succeeded or failed

    i do think in general theres a great deal of complexity because you have DA and VS which sort of compile the code and HP and CD which sort of view things linearly, but even that is a rough estimate of things. I really feel like this sort of stuff is really hard to wrap your head around because it can get very alien the further you diverge from your own mode. I will say that I really liked the illustration of VS as kind of naturally viewing the world in terms of quadra complex and just situating oneself where one can be buoyed by the appropriately helpful flow. I never thought in my life to be like that but once it was mentioned it totally fits my perception of how they go about trying to find their place and how they interact with others

    at the same time it gives me a great deal of appreciation for ILI which is really trying to suss out for themselves the mechanics of the system because it feels like such a sisyphean undertaking not far afield of a standard lifelong moral enterprise, it just manifests itself in this hardcore logical way, but underneath it is like this sincere desire to figure things out in such a way that will help people

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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    It's like they're waiting for the world to burn. And even if it happens hundreds of years from now, they'll still think they somehow predicted it.
    that's interesting, can you go more into why you think this? that quote seems about right to me and I don't see anything particularly odious about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    that's interesting, can you go more into why you think this? that quote seems about right to me and I don't see anything particularly odious about it
    Let's say you take a trip to the store. To buy something specific. And you spend hours searching. But you can't find it. So you go home early.

    "Where's [item]?"
    "I couldn't find it."
    "But there was an entire aisle of [item]! Why didn't you just buy a different brand?!"
    "Because that's not the brand I was searching for!"

    It's been discontinued. And so have half the ingredients.

    But you search anyway. You search every corner of that city. And eventually you find an old rundown building that still produces [item].

    Fantastic! You buy it.

    But only god knows what they replaced the original ingredients with.
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    my gut response to that is "yeah, that's life"

    I'm curious as to what you think the proper takeaway from that should be

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    My cow


    It is a functioning system. It depends on the level you look at it. This is pretty macro level functionality.
    However that is not whole picture according to me () because real mechanism happens molecular level.

    The beauty of seeing what causes and effects are on the chain. This is very fascinating thing to discover and study but not to remember. CD/DA.

    But the real deal is here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    my gut response to that is "yeah, that's life"

    I'm curious as to what you think the proper takeaway from that should be
    The idea behind the quote is that the ESI in question measures external validity of "truth" based on their own subjective understanding of "truth" (ethically-oriented static type; Ni HA, Ne PoLR) which isn't wrong because that's what they're seeking: Compatibility of ethics in relations. Right?

    But that drives a wedge between them and well-intentioned people with different values. Even more so if they have poor communication skills. And it opens them up to people who perceive them as a "challenge". Lands unconquered. Why? Because if anyone is capable of emulating everything that you desire in a prospective friend (or partner) then they'll need to sacrifice a good portion of themselves in order to fit that mold. Which begs the question:

    "Why would other people bend over backwards to please you, in particular, when they don't even know you?"

    So the problem doesn't lie in the ESI (a la the quote). The problem lies in the idea that the truth can only come in one form. Beautifully packaged. Airtight. But the truth is, that the truth doesn't come in one form. It comes in many forms. And you could probably extend that same principle to morality and compatibility. Because "...the devil doesn't come dressed in a red cape and pointy horns. He comes as everything you've ever wished for..."

    For example: There's a movie where the protagonist is cursed with the ability to identify the truth in any lie. And naturally, she becomes jaded and cynical over time. Until she meets a boy who never lies. He claims that he quit her boyfriend's band. But later she finds out that he was kicked from her boyfriend's band. Both statements registered as "true". And she begins to question everything. Until she confronts her boyfriend about what happened. And he tells her: "We asked him to quit the band." Followed by: "Asked to quit. Kicked out. What's the difference?" And she has an epiphany: Relativism.

    And I think that's the "proper takeaway", as you say, that there is no proper takeaway and the issue lies in assuming that such a thing even exists.
    Last edited by wasp; 10-17-2017 at 08:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    The idea behind the quote is that the ESI in question measures external validity of "truth" based on their own subjective understanding of "truth" (ethically-oriented static type; Ni HA, Ne PoLR) which isn't wrong because that's what they're seeking: Compatibility of ethics in relations. Right?

    But that drives a wedge between them and well-intentioned people with different values. Even more so if they have poor communication skills. And it opens them up to people who perceive them as a "challenge". Lands unconquered. Why? Because if anyone is capable of emulating everything that you desire in a prospective friend (or partner) then they'll need to sacrifice a good portion of themselves in order to fit that mold. Which begs the question:

    "Why would other people bend over backwards to please you, in particular, when they don't even know you?"

    So the problem doesn't lie in the ESI (a la the quote). The problem lies in the idea that the truth can only come in one form. Beautifully packaged. Airtight. But the truth is, that the truth doesn't come in one form. It comes in many forms. And you could probably extend that same principle to morality and compatibility. Because "...the devil doesn't come dressed in a red cape and pointy horns. He comes as everything you've ever wished for..."

    For example: There's a movie where the protagonist is cursed with the ability to identify the truth in any lie. And naturally, she becomes jaded and cynical over time. Until she meets a boy who never lies. He claims that he quit her boyfriend's band. But later she finds out that he was kicked from her boyfriend's band. Both statements registered as "true". And she begins to question everything. Until she confronts her boyfriend about what happened. And he tells her: "We asked him to quit the band." Followed by: "Asked to quit. Kicked out. What's the difference?" And she has an epiphany: Relativism.

    And I think that's the "proper takeaway", as you say, that there is no proper takeaway and the issue lies in assuming that such a thing even exists.
    I would agree with this except to add that I think their idea of beauty changes over time, its not just the most popular trend at the moment... the art of ESIs is a great example of them running ahead, not behind on this... what it feels like you're suggesting to me is to drown the distinction between the true and the beautiful and the ugly and the false in relativism, which I'm not really down for, rather I think we need to elevate our conception of beauty which is precisely what ESIs function to do in society... while it is true they will never reach objective perfection I think there's rationality in striving as if you can and everyone benefits

    i do agree that are certain binaries, such as that we are all sinners and that God loves us all, and in light of that, these comparisons we draw between better/worse between individuals are somewhat trivial and subjective... I feel like this goes to the basic dispute in Christianity of faith v works, with Jesus saying "all have fallen short" "no one is good" but also stuff like "remove the vine that does not bear fruit" "know them by their fruits" implies that subjective valuations of worth are necessary in determining the sincerity and truth of a thing (and the right to eliminate the perceived "bad"). i think the easy answer is that humans are just creatures in tension between these two poles and that one must keep both in mind when evaluating others but one cannot go too far in either direction without sinning. in other words, we must maintain the tension

    as far as proper takeaways not existing, I do think that negativism has its merits, where often we don't know the singular best solution to any problem because its too complex or we're just too stupid, but I do think in those situations you can ask yourself "what should I definitely not do"... in other words, don't knowingly make things worse... I do think in that sense proper takeaways exist and its not a spurious notion in of itself
    Last edited by Bertrand; 10-17-2017 at 01:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I would agree with this except to add that I think their idea of beauty changes over time, its not just the most popular trend at the moment... the art of ESIs is a great example of them running ahead, not behind on this... what it feels like you're suggesting to me is to drown the distinction between the true and the beautiful and the ugly and the false in relativism, which I'm not really down for, rather I think we need to elevate our conception of beauty which is precisely what ESIs function to do in society... while it is true they will never reach objective perfection I think there's rationality in striving as if you can and everyone benefits

    i do agree that are certain binaries, such as that we are all sinners and that God loves us all, and in light of that, these comparisons we draw between better/worse between individuals are somewhat trivial and subjective... I feel like this goes to the basic dispute in Christianity of faith v works, with Jesus saying "all have fallen short" "no one is good" but also stuff like "remove the vine that does not bear fruit" "know them by their fruits" implies that subjective valuations of worth are necessary in determining the sincerity and truth of a thing (and the right to eliminate the perceived "bad"). i think the easy answer is that humans are just creatures in tension between these two poles and that one must keep both in mind when evaluating others but one cannot go too far in either direction without sinning. in other words, we must maintain the tension

    as far as proper takeaways not existing, I do think that negativism has its merits, where often we don't know the singular best solution to any problem because its too complex or we're just too stupid, but I do think in those situations you can ask yourself "what should I definitely not do"... in other words, don't knowingly make things worse... I do think in that sense proper takeaways exist and its not a spurious notion in of itself
    o

    I think I misunderstood the question
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