The Fe Misconception

[Ezra]

Herzy identified well what Se was all about, and untangled the crap and the quality.

Now, I'm not going to do the same, because I'm not adequate in socionics knowledge enough to do so. However, one thing I do know is that people are often very wrong about Fe in the following respect.

What people get wrong about Fe is the way in which it manifests itself.

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

Keep this in mind.

[marooned]

I think we should also talk about Fe vs. Fi in general... I'm still confused somewhat there as well...

[Ezra]

Good idea, Loki.

People of the16types. Heed this call.

[XoX]

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

So what function do you see that kind of activity more related to?

[cracka]

I think I have more Fe than I know what to do with but I really don't know anything about it.
Damn me for not knowing anything about socionics.

[Joy]

I'll make an attempt... I'm not going to put a whole lot of time or thought into this though.

Possible expressions of Fe in Alpha/Beta ethical types:

• SEI: *under construction*
  IEI: Quiet in general, seems almost solemn. Sensitive to the emotional climate or atmosphere. Tends to avoid confrontation but can flip out on occasion. More playful around those (s)he feels comfortable with.
  ESE: Extremely emotionally expressive and socially extroverted.
  EIE: *under construction*

Possible expressions of Fi in Gamma/Delta ethical types:

• ESI: Extremely loyal. Quiet or distantly polite around those who are not very close. Seems uptight. Playful around those (s)he's very close to.
  EII: Places a high value on honesty and integrity. Sometimes allows him/herself to become a martyr to do what's best for others and avoid confrontation. Struggles with uncalled for feelings of guilt. More concerned about everyone else and not enough about him/herself.
  SEE: Strong likes and dislikes, good at making friends or becoming friendly acquaintances with people of all sorts in all positions. Separates close friends/loved ones from friendly acquaintances in his/her mind, but acts similarly around both, though probably more relaxed around close friends/loved ones. Sometimes too loyal and forgiving.
  IEE: *under construction*

[Joy]

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

So what function do you see that kind of activity more related to?

Perhaps extroversion?

[Ezra]

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

So what function do you see that kind of activity more related to?

The human one. Those who can't express emotions are either psychologically damaged or autistic. Those who prefer not to have had an experience in life which makes them feel this way. People who speak enthusiastically are not just Fe. What about LIEs? Do they value Fe? Apparently not. And yet they are often pointed out for their enthusiasm.

[XoX]

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

So what function do you see that kind of activity more related to?

Perhaps extroversion?

That is probably one factor yes. But still, aren't Fe PoLR types supposed to be lacking visible enthusiasm and emotional expression the most? Introverted and very low Fe.

[Ezra]

I'll make an attempt... I'm not going to put a whole lot of time or thought into this though.

Possible expressions of Fe in Alpha/Beta ethical types:

• SEI: *under construction*
  IEI: Quiet in general, seems almost solemn. Sensitive to the emotional climate or atmosphere. Tends to avoid confrontation but can flip out on occasion. More playful around those (s)he feels comfortable with.
  ESE: Extremely emotionally expressive and socially extroverted.
  EIE: *under construction*

Possible expressions of Fi in Gamma/Delta ethical types:

• ESI: Extremely loyal. Quiet or distantly polite around those who are not very close. Seems uptight. Playful around those (s)he's very close to.
  EII: Places a high value on honesty and integrity. Sometimes allows him/herself to become a martyr to do what's best for others and avoid confrontation. Struggles with uncalled for feelings of guilt. More concerned about everyone else and not enough about him/herself.
  SEE: Strong likes and dislikes, good at making friends or becoming friendly acquaintances with people of all sorts in all positions. Separates close friends/loved ones from friendly acquaintances in his/her mind, but acts similarly around both, though probably more relaxed around close friends/loved ones. Sometimes too loyal and forgiving.
  IEE: *under construction*

Joy, these are actually quite good. You should do them for EVERY type, not just Fi-/Fe-leading.

[Joy]

It's harder to pin down Fi/Fe characteristics in logical types though. Also, which would I describe, the conscious or the valued functions?

[Ezra]

Both.

[XoX]

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

So what function do you see that kind of activity more related to?

The human one. Those who can't express emotions are either psychologically damaged or autistic. Those who prefer not to have had an experience in life which makes them feel this way. People who speak enthusiastically are not just Fe. What about LIEs? Do they value Fe? Apparently not. And yet they are often pointed out for their enthusiasm.

Actually psychologically damaged people can often be very emotionally expressive but lack control of their expression. Not all of course.

Same with children. Most children are very chaotically emotionally expressive and only learn to control their emotions at an older age. So imho lack of control for your expression is a better sign of psychological problems than lack of visible expression.

About LIEs. They are extroverted, positivists and have Fe role. Perhaps extroversion, positivism contribute as much as Fe. This would make an extroverted, positivist, Fe-type the most emotionally expressive. I.e. ESFj. At the same time it would make introverted, negativist, Fe PoLR-type the least emotionally expressive. I.e. INTp. This makes sense in many ways.

[Ezra]

Actually psychologically damaged people can often be very emotionally expressive but lack control of their expression. Not all of course.

Same with children. Most children are very chaotically emotionally expressive and only learn to control their emotions at an older age. So imho lack of control for your expression is a better sign of psychological problems than lack of visible expression.

I didn't claim otherwise, just that those who cannot express their emotions are damaged.

About LIEs. They are extroverted, positivists and have Fe role. Perhaps extroversion, positivism contribute as much as Fe.

Okay, if that is the case, why then when Expat sees Fe and Se in me does he not consider LIE?

[XoX]

About LIEs. They are extroverted, positivists and have Fe role. Perhaps extroversion, positivism contribute as much as Fe.

Okay, if that is the case, why then when Expat sees Fe and Se in me does he not consider LIE?[/quote]

I think we need to ask him. I think he had more arguments than just enthusiasm.

I'm personally a bit suspicious about you being Fi dual seeking. More likely you need Fe than Fi from other people but I can't know for sure without meeting you.

[Ezra]

About LIEs. They are extroverted, positivists and have Fe role. Perhaps extroversion, positivism contribute as much as Fe.

Okay, if that is the case, why then when Expat sees Fe and Se in me does he not consider LIE?

I think we need to ask him. I think he had more arguments than just enthusiasm.[/quote]

Well the way I saw it when he commented on it was that I was very emotionally expressive. It wasn't the whole manipulation or twisting thing, because he attributed that to Ti. But I'd honestly like to know where the Fe is in me.

I'm personally a bit suspicious about you being Fi dual seeking. More likely you need Fe than Fi from other people but I can't know for sure without meeting you.

What do you mean? You mean you think I don't really want an EII or an ESI, and I want an EIE or an IEI instead?

[aestrivex]

What people get wrong about Fe is the way in which it manifests itself.

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

Keep this in mind.

in part, this is true. obviously, Fe as a function has something to do with expressive behavior, if it does not define it absolutely.


but i think that most people here realize that.

[Joy]

BTW, Joy, I really really like the IEI one.

thanks :-)

My dad, sister in law, a former coworker, and a colleague are the IEI's I know/knew best. My dad seems sillier/more playful than the rest of them (except maybe the coworker, if she was really comfortable), but when I talked to some people that work where he works I found out that he has a reputation for being extremely quiet and not interested in small talk with people he didn't know very well. I've seen my sister in law joke around a lot, but she's generally more lethargic than my dad (she's got health problems though), and I think most of the situations I've seen my dad in were ones in which he felt very comfortable.

I have interesting intertype relations in my family... A parent supervising a child, a child supervising a parent, and mirror relations between parents and two children. The fifth member of the family not yet mentioned is the beneficiary of one sibling, the semi-dual of another, the contrary of one parent, and the quasi of the other. It gets really interesting when you factor in all of the inlaws and ex inlaws.

[Joy]

But I'd honestly like to know where the Fe is in me.

I don't so much see Fe as I do see Fe > Fi.

[redbaron]

I really like the IEI one also. I think it's very good. I DO flip out on occasion but tend to avoid negative confrontation and I'm very playful around those I'm comfortable with. Quite accurate (for me, anyway).

But I'm also still interested in hearing more of the differences between Fe vs. Fi because I don't have a good grip on it at all. I get the impression that Fe is more of a desire to feel emotionally comfortable whereas Fi is more a wanting relationships to be defined, or as they ought to be. Is that part of it?

[Joy]

i think Fe doesn't have to > Fi. could be unvalued. i mean super ego Fe can be in that he would get pissed off at someone stupidity as he perceives it and that is what you might be referring to. Fi may be very weak and so almost not considered by him.

When *insert IM Element* > *insert IM Element* is used, it's referring to quadra values, not one's most apparent functions.

[Joy]

I really like the IEI one also. I think it's very good. I DO flip out on occasion but tend to avoid negative confrontation and I'm very playful around those I'm comfortable with. Quite accurate (for me, anyway).

thanks :-)

But I'm also still interested in hearing more of the differences between Fe vs. Fi because I don't have a good grip on it at all.

I don't know if I should write a description on them (similar to the Ti vs. Te description I wrote)... it seems like it would be a good idea to let an ethical type handle that. Maybe a Fe type would be best. I am not all that good at verbalizing/explaining the differences between Fe and Fi, though I understand and am often able to recognize them.

I get the impression that Fe is more of a desire to feel emotionally comfortable

Not always. It's generally the tendency to consider people's internal dynamics (generally emotions) or the emotional atmosphere to be important. Sometimes it's purposely made unpleasant, but it's still important.

whereas Fi is more a wanting relationships to be defined, or as they ought to be. Is that part of it?

That's more of a rational thing, especially with Te/Fi rationals.

[redbaron]

Thanks Joy. Okay maybe someone else will step up and help with the Fe/Fi thing.

[Joy]

Anyone can, to some extent. And a Fe type has strong Fi. (S)he just doesn't value it as much as Fe.

[redbaron]

Fe people can sense emotional states and Fi - attitudes. discuss.

How do you define "emotional attitudes"? How one is feeling about something/someone else? vs. "emotional states" how one is feeling in general?

[redbaron]

Anyone can, to some extent. And a Fe type has strong Fi. (S)he just doesn't value it as much as Fe.

Well this is what I wondered! Because I feel like I DO have strong Fi and I've been confused about that. But you're right, I don't value it as much.

[redbaron]

Fe people can sense emotional states and Fi - attitudes. discuss.

How do you define "emotional attitudes"? How one is feeling about something/someone else? vs. "emotional states" how one is feeling in general?

by attitudes i mean hate, love, repulsion, attraction, stuff like that. by emotional states i mean grief, happiness, stuff like that.

Okay. Well I am not sure I can even discuss this because I feel like I can sense all of the above really well. I don't know how to differentiate, really. I'm not sure how you can sense the one and not the other.

[marooned]

Fe seems like this sort of energy that is available to outwardly emote (unless that's just what it is for extroverts?). It confuses me somewhat, because it seems to rise and fall within me. When others are overly enthusiastic or emotive towards me, it makes me cringe sometimes... this happens when I'm all out of that kind of energy and just really want to be left alone. I'll usually put on an act in those cases to try to get them to go away as quickly as possible. I may feel bad about doing that later when the energy sort of recharges... my point is that it seems to have an "end"... it can run out. Other times though, that energy is on... though it seems to be on the most when I am alone (which seems rather counter-intuitive). So there is the energy itself... which most of what I just talked about could actually be more relevant to introversion vs. extroversion.

Another way to approach Fe and Fi I think would be to consider Fe ethics vs. Fi ethics. I think there may be some differences between the ethos of a Fe-dominant type and an Fi-dominant type. But I have to leave that thought incomplete here for now as it's still very abstract in my mind and isn't ready to be put into words.

I would be interested to hear others thoughts on Fi/Fe in regards to ethics however.

[redbaron]

I feel like I can totally sense how people feel about me but I can also tell when they are sad, happy, etc. I can think of Fe and Fi as two separate things but I experience myself as being good at both. Maybe I don't CARE as much about someone's emotional attitudes as I do about their emotional states. (even though in theory, emotional attitudes are probably more important than emotional states which are more fleeting and changeable. Perhaps I have taught myself to pay more attention to emotional attitudes because I'm expected to, as a female or something. Or because my mother is INFj )

[redbaron]

Fe seems like this sort of energy that is available to outwardly emote (unless that's just what it is for extroverts?). It confuses me somewhat, because it seems to rise and fall within me. When others are overly enthusiastic or emotive towards me, it makes me cringe sometimes... this happens when I'm all out of that kind of energy and just really want to be left alone. I'll usually put on an act in those cases to try to get them to go away as quickly as possible. I may feel bad about doing that later when the energy sort of recharges... my point is that it seems to have an "end"... it can run out. Other times though, that energy is on... though it seems to be on the most when I am alone (which seems rather counter-intuitive). So there is the energy itself... which most of what I just talked about could actually be more relevant to introversion vs. extroversion.

Another way to approach Fe and Fi I think would be to consider Fe ethics vs. Fi ethics. I think there may be some differences between the ethos of a Fe-dominant type and an Fi-dominant type. But I have to leave that thought incomplete here for now as it's still very abstract in my mind and isn't ready to be put into words.

I would be interested to hear others thoughts on Fi/Fe in regards to ethics however.

The energy thing might be related to introversion/extraversion, I agree. I dunno though. I get those surges also and sometimes I feel too tired to deal with people. It's funny, I can be very very emotionally expressive and fun but then at other times I am completely drained and cannot even bring myself to approach anyone to simply say hello. It probably makes me look like a psychopath. As for the Fi/Fe ethics, I have no ideas on that.

[marooned]

Okay, so Fe is emotional states; Fi is emotional attitudes. So emotionally-based moral views (for example) are in the realm of Fi. Paying attention to the emotions of others (and being sensitive to those emotional states) are in the realm of Fe. ???

[marooned]

I get those surges also and sometimes I feel too tired to deal with people. It's funny, I can be very very emotionally expressive and fun but then at other times I am completely drained and cannot even bring myself to approach anyone to simply say hello.

This seems to resonate with me. I don't know that I would use the world "fun" for myself though... I'm still confused... I'll have to think about it more. Before I learned about Socionics I thought most of my emotionality was in the realm of Fi. But I don't know that my understanding of Fi at the time is the same thing as Socionics Fi. I don't think it is because Socionics Fi seems too "fixed" to match me...

[redbaron]

Okay, so Fe is emotional states; Fi is emotional attitudes. So emotionally-based moral views (for example) are in the realm of Fi. Paying attention to the emotions of others (and being sensitive to those emotional states) are in the realm of Fe. ???

I think so. That's how I understand it anyway. Someone correct us if we are wrong please!

[redbaron]

I get those surges also and sometimes I feel too tired to deal with people. It's funny, I can be very very emotionally expressive and fun but then at other times I am completely drained and cannot even bring myself to approach anyone to simply say hello.

This seems to resonate with me. I don't know that I would use the world "fun" for myself though... I'm still confused... I'll have to think about it more. Before I learned about Socionics I thought most of my emotionality was in the realm of Fi. But I don't know that my understanding of Fi at the time is the same thing as Socionics Fi. I don't think it is because Socionics Fi seems too "fixed" to match me...

I use the word "fun" to describe myself only with those I'm VERY comfortable with.

[anndelise]

*sigh*
Fi is pretty simple. It's the personalized relationships between items, people, concepts, objects, etc.

The most common example is the attraction/repulsion example. {note: repulsion doesn't have to be a strong feeling, nor hate, it could be a simple thought of...nah}
I like ice cream. (I am attracted to ice cream)
She doesn't like that house. (she is repulsed by that house)
He really wants that car. (he is attracted to that car)
I read that book and it brought up all sorts of negative feelings in me...but the one part I liked was ..blah blah blah. (reading book....repulsed repulsed repulsed....oooh, that looks interesting...repulsed repulsed, etc)
When an Fi asks you "do you like that?" "how does it make you feel?" "Is that something you could live with?" etc...they are checking to see what your personal relationship is to 'that'. It can include figuring out if you are more attracted to x than you are to y, and what is it about x that both attracts you as well as repulses you.

Another less commonly mentioned example is personalized connections (this one is a bit harder to differentiate between Fi and Ni...the thing to remember is that Ni deals with more abstract connections...but with the combination of Ni+Fe, it can give a similar sense of Fi).
I read this book and something about it reminded me of something my teacher said about ..blah blah blah.
This one is a bit harder to describe, because the mere act of attempting to do so forces one to draw on Ti. But it's a sense of how two concepts/objects are connected. By noticing that there is some undefined (in the person's mind) connection between X and Y and Z. But attempting to define it forces one to move away from the personalized sensing of it to make it either more abstract (separate from self) or concrete (external).
(again, remember, the connection is a personal connection, spontaneous and undefined. Not every Fi type will make the same connections due to variables in personal experiences, personal beliefs, and personal values.)

Fi doesn't itself place labels onto an emotion or experience beyond words that point to attract/repulse or connected/notconnected or similar/dissimar. To place a label on it is to view it as a concept..the concept of sadness, anger, frustration may incorporate attractions/repulsions from a thing or a circumstance...but Fi itself wouldn't treat it as a thing/concept/object...that's the job of a Xe function.

When an Fi talks about ethics...it will be linked to the more individual and personalized connections. "You just dissed fat people in front of her, she's overweight, how do you think that just made her feel? Do you really think it didn't hurt her?" etc etc...they are trying to get you to see how the other person may have connected themselves to what was just said, or done, or other. (again, the connections the Fi makes vary due to personal experiences, personal beliefs, and personal values....leaving much room for Fi's to disagree with each other due to the effects of the variables.)

[Joy]

Thank you, anndelise. You made some interesting points, especially about how things can remind someone of other things and about how something that on the surface sounds Fe can have Fi motivations. I think sometimes I think of Fe as being too static.

[implied]

Herzy identified well what Se was all about, and untangled the crap and the quality.

Now, I'm not going to do the same, because I'm not adequate in socionics knowledge enough to do so. However, one thing I do know is that people are often very wrong about Fe in the following respect.

What people get wrong about Fe is the way in which it manifests itself.

When people see someone who is emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically, they automatically think Fe. This is bullshit.

Keep this in mind.

well, "emotionally expressive or speaks enthusiastically" is essentially Fe, just the level of it, how assertive it is and whether at all (just wanna be and let others live) generally is indicative of it being valued or not. like IxTps do produce emotions, just they are never too dramatic and they dislike people making obvious and direct attempts to cheer them up (not sure about INFps and ENFjs, though pretty sure).

i'm bothered by this as i find it hard not to see some types as non-dramatic, non-emotional, or non-expressive quite a bit often.

[redbaron]

*sigh*

When an Fi talks about ethics...it will be linked to the more individual and personalized connections. "You just dissed fat people in front of her, she's overweight, how do you think that just made her feel? Do you really think it didn't hurt her?" etc etc...they are trying to get you to see how the other person may have connected themselves to what was just said, or done, or other. (again, the connections the Fi makes vary due to personal experiences, personal beliefs, and personal values....leaving much room for Fi's to disagree with each other due to the effects of the variables.)

Okay this reminds me so much of my mom. "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" She's constantly worried about hurting other people's feelings and how that might make her look to them. I am more interested in saying something that will make people laugh and contribute to the general emotional atmosphere than in making sure I don't offend someone. That sounds bad! It's not like I go around offending people all the time, but I don't constantly talk about how I shouldn't say this or that because it MIGHT offend someone or someone MIGHT think I'm inappropriate, the way my mother does. So is that a good example of me valuing Fe over Fi and my mom valuing Fi over Fe?

[Joy]

*sigh*

When an Fi talks about ethics...it will be linked to the more individual and personalized connections. "You just dissed fat people in front of her, she's overweight, how do you think that just made her feel? Do you really think it didn't hurt her?" etc etc...they are trying to get you to see how the other person may have connected themselves to what was just said, or done, or other. (again, the connections the Fi makes vary due to personal experiences, personal beliefs, and personal values....leaving much room for Fi's to disagree with each other due to the effects of the variables.)

Okay this reminds me so much of my mom. "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" She's constantly worried about hurting other people's feelings and how that might make her look to them. I am more interested in saying something that will make people laugh and contribute to the general emotional atmosphere than in making sure I don't offend someone. That sounds bad! It's not like I go around offending people all the time, but I don't constantly talk about how I shouldn't say this or that because it MIGHT offend someone or someone MIGHT think I'm inappropriate, the way my mother does. So is that a good example of me valuing Fe over Fi and my mom valuing Fi over Fe?

No.

[redbaron]

*sigh*

When an Fi talks about ethics...it will be linked to the more individual and personalized connections. "You just dissed fat people in front of her, she's overweight, how do you think that just made her feel? Do you really think it didn't hurt her?" etc etc...they are trying to get you to see how the other person may have connected themselves to what was just said, or done, or other. (again, the connections the Fi makes vary due to personal experiences, personal beliefs, and personal values....leaving much room for Fi's to disagree with each other due to the effects of the variables.)

Okay this reminds me so much of my mom. "how would YOU feel if blah blah blah" She's constantly worried about hurting other people's feelings and how that might make her look to them. I am more interested in saying something that will make people laugh and contribute to the general emotional atmosphere than in making sure I don't offend someone. That sounds bad! It's not like I go around offending people all the time, but I don't constantly talk about how I shouldn't say this or that because it MIGHT offend someone or someone MIGHT think I'm inappropriate, the way my mother does. So is that a good example of me valuing Fe over Fi and my mom valuing Fi over Fe?

No.

Okay. So is it at all related to Fe/Fi or something else entirely?