Quadra values?? WTF?

[aka-kitsune]

Granted, I'm still pretty new to socionics theory, but I have to admit I'm baffled by all this talk of "quadra" values. For example, as IEI, I'm supposed to share a quadra with EIE, LSI and SLE. The wiki has these descriptions for common blocks within Beta:

blocked with

Beta quadra types prefer situations where the power structure and hierarchy is clearly defined according to consistent rules where ambiguities are minimized.
Beta quadra types are more confident analysing realistic characteristics of situations, people, and objects, rather than alternative and could-it-be scenarios.
Beta quadra types are inclined to attribute to a new acquaintance traits that they have previously observed in other individuals belonging to the same group as they see the new acquaintance as belonging to (Aristocracy).
Beta quadra types are inclined to look for general rules explaining people, politics, mechanisms and trends, rules that once defined can be applied generally, rather than go about things in a case-by-case way.
Beta quadra types are energized by competitive situations where analytical tactics are emphasized.

blocked with

Beta types tend to enjoy group activities where the whole group participates in generating a common emotional atmosphere, as in laughing at jokes, etc.
Beta types tend to feel energized in the presence of people who share their beliefs and express them with obvious enthusiasm and emotion.
Beta types tend to give more value to feelings when they are demonstrated with clear emotional expression, and tend to increase the level of their own emotional expression in order to get a reaction from other people.
Beta types tend to describe personal views of special meaning with "poetic" or "dramatic" expressions and language.

The latter details seem to seriously conflict with the former. Common "emotional" atmospheres don't mesh with rigid social hierarchies and power structures, for example. "Poetic and dramatic expression" really doesn't seem compatible with "competitive situations".

I can easily conclude that within a single quadra, you've got diametrically opposed value subgroups based on the "blocks". This is where I can't see a long-term relationship with an SLE. Constant competitiveness irks me, as well, I can't stand rigid hierarchies or social structures. For most of my life, I eschewed any kind of group activity because I can't stand what I deem arbitrary or confining "rules" of engagement. Social games and ambition strikes me as highly distasteful.

Can't help sometimes but see dependence on and belief in the concept of "quadra values" as total bullshit. How can anyone reconcile these glaringly vast abysses in pov??

[Joy]

I don't mean quadra descriptions... just quadra values.

In other words:

1.) Pick A or B

• A.) Ne/Si
  B.) Ni/Se

2.) Pick A or B

• A.) Fe/Ti
  B.) Fi/Te

[Not A Communist Shill]

The latter details seem to seriously conflict with the former. Common "emotional" atmospheres don't mesh with rigid social hierarchies and power structures, for example. "Poetic and dramatic expression" really doesn't seem compatible with "competitive situations".

I can easily conclude that within a single quadra, you've got diametrically opposed value subgroups based on the "blocks". This is where I can't see a long-term relationship with an SLE. Constant competitiveness irks me, as well, I can't stand rigid hierarchies or social structures. For most of my life, I eschewed any kind of group activity because I can't stand what I deem arbitrary or confining "rules" of engagement. Social games and ambition strikes me as highly distasteful.

Can't help sometimes but see dependence on and belief in the concept of "quadra values" as total bullshit. How can anyone reconcile these glaringly vast abysses in pov??

Think of a drunken party where people compete with each other singing songs .

[aka-kitsune]

The latter details seem to seriously conflict with the former. Common "emotional" atmospheres don't mesh with rigid social hierarchies and power structures, for example. "Poetic and dramatic expression" really doesn't seem compatible with "competitive situations".

I can easily conclude that within a single quadra, you've got diametrically opposed value subgroups based on the "blocks". This is where I can't see a long-term relationship with an SLE. Constant competitiveness irks me, as well, I can't stand rigid hierarchies or social structures. For most of my life, I eschewed any kind of group activity because I can't stand what I deem arbitrary or confining "rules" of engagement. Social games and ambition strikes me as highly distasteful.

Can't help sometimes but see dependence on and belief in the concept of "quadra values" as total bullshit. How can anyone reconcile these glaringly vast abysses in pov??

Think of a drunken party where people compete with each other singing songs .

Won't find me there. =P

[aka-kitsune]

I don't mean quadra descriptions... just quadra values.

In other words, pick A or B and 1 or 2;

A.) Ne/Si
B.) Ni/Se

1.) Fe/Ti
2.) Fi/Te

Joy -- I wasn't really speaking to your statements, per se. Just noting that "blocks" by definition fall under a common quadra umbrella. And if quadra values can be so opposed, how can they justifiably be included in the same description?

Again, wtf?? Where is the consistency in this approach?

[UDP]

You just don't get it yet. Keep trying.

[Joy]

Joy -- I wasn't really speaking to your statements, per se. Just noting that "blocks" by definition fall under a common quadra umbrella. And if quadra values can be so opposed, how can they justifiably be included in the same description?

Again, wtf?? Where is the consistency in this approach?

Ignore "blocks" within quadras or whatever... just look at Se/Ni vs. Si/Ne and Fe/Ti vs. Fi/Te.

[UDP]

I can easily conclude that within a single quadra, you've got diametrically opposed value subgroups based on the "blocks". This is where I can't see a long-term relationship with an SLE. Constant competitiveness irks me, as well, I can't stand rigid hierarchies or social structures. For most of my life, I eschewed any kind of group activity because I can't stand what I deem arbitrary or confining "rules" of engagement. Social games and ambition strikes me as highly distasteful.

Can't help sometimes but see dependence on and belief in the concept of "quadra values" as total bullshit. How can anyone reconcile these glaringly vast abysses in pov??

You're basing all of this on technical understanding or lack there of, and not on real experience. What you are not comprehending yet is what seems "diametrically opposed" is actually "complementary".


It seems to imply that you don't grasp the nature of complementary temperaments (EP an IP, IJ and EJ), and perhaps, even the concept of duality in general.



As for why Beta atmosphere doesn't make sense (to you) you could just not be INFp. Or as above, you just don't get it yet. Either way, I would say there is something out of alignment on your part. Quadra values are one of the most blazingly apparent things in socionics, as I see it.

What you may get caught up on is while the values are shared, each different psychological configuration within the quadra manifests the values differently. And so on.

[Joy]

So in other words...

1.) Pick A or B:

• A.) potentiality of objects: inherent possibilities, purpose, abilities, talents, content, values AND tangible connections between processes happening in one place and time: reflections of events on one's inner state; sensations, what one experiences physically
  B.) intangible connections between processes separated in time and space: sense of when things might happen, patterns of events, abstract representations of processes AND outward traits of objects: form, shape, strength, power, readiness, willpower, mobilization

2.) Pick A or B:

• A.) internal activity of objects: internal processes, mood, emotional activity and arousability, emotional content AND logical relationships between objects: systems of rules, hierarchies, comparisons of quantifiable properties, logical judgments
  B.) subjective relationships between objects: feelings of attraction and repulsion, like and dislike, need and antipathy; morals, subjective judgments AND external activity of objects: events (what, how, where), activity, behavior, algorithms

(And yes, I know I'm probably getting too abstract now and these descriptions won't really help anything... I'm just demonstrating what I mean by "quadra values" a little better.)


Keep in mind that this isn't asking you which traits you possess. It's about which aspects of reality you value the information of.

[marooned]

A picture...

[Joy]

You forgot reasonable and resolute.

Actually, my first post in this thread mentioned the Reasonable vs. Resolute and Serious vs. Merry dichotomies, but I took it out because those are too confusing to most people to be of any use. Especially Serious vs. Merry.

[Ezra]

Joy, I have a question. If I love Te so much how could I possibly not value it?

[marooned]

I didn't know about reasonable or resolute yet... how symmetrical it is now...

[Birds]

aka-kitsune: Where did you get that description from?

[Joy]

Joy, I have a question. If I love Te so much how could I possibly not value it?

Why do you think you "love" Te?

[aka-kitsune]

You're basing all of this on technical understanding or lack there of, and not on real experience. What you are not comprehending yet is what seems "diametrically opposed" is actually "complementary".

It seems to imply that you don't grasp the nature of complementary temperaments (EP an IP, IJ and EJ), and perhaps, even the concept of duality in general.

I understand "complementarity". But I also see that as an unattainable ideal in a "reality" situation. I'm not a true believer in the concept of duality, but yes, I understand it should (in theory) be a nice experience to be around someone who is strong in all the areas you're not.

Unfortunately, I'm usually made insecure being around people who display traits I'm weak in. Relationships don't work if you're insecure. I don't mind stretching my comfort zones at times, but I just don't want a constant reminder that I'm not, whatever. There's a real potential for constant conflict based on differing points of view. Plus, I don't notice a lot of people, even secure ones, choosing a "complementary" partner. Most choose someone based on compatibility that has little to do with psychological growth or distance. Not to mention, the entire dating industry is based on finding people with "similar" traits and values (in the usual sense).

As for why Beta atmosphere doesn't make sense (to you) you could just not be INFp. Or as above, you just don't get it yet. Either way, I would say there is something out of alignment on your part. Quadra values are one of the most blazingly apparent things in socionics, as I see it.

Whatever. I'm confident I can accurately ascertain my "type" within any typology system. I just always seem to end up seeing the system as inherently flawed and inconsistent in actual application. "This may work, but this doesn't". It seems to require pretzel logic to make a lot of the assumptions needed to swallow the theory whole. I guess that's why I'm not a true believer in anything, because where it starts to make little practical sense to me, I find it more entertainment or parlour game than life strategy.

Ooh! I'm a socionics heretic! Shall I be excommunicated????

What you may get caught up on is while the values are shared, each different psychological configuration within the quadra manifests the values differently. And so on.

"Psychological configurations" that inherently don't seem very compatible, IMO.

[Ezra]

Don't ask me, you were the one who used that phrase.

Damn, why is everyone so in love with "Te" these days anyways? Sigh.

[Joy]

Don't ask me, you were the one who used that phrase.

Damn, why is everyone so in love with "Te" these days anyways? Sigh.

[snegledmaca]

Think of a drunken party where people compete with each other singing songs .

I couldn't imagine many things worse then that. I run away from such things like from the devil. In fact, I'd say that's my antithesis. You will never, ever catch me doing something like that.

[aka-kitsune]

I guess no one can explain this satisfactorily, and it's simply a matter of faith. And for the record, I can certainly see if you wanna generalize and say something like "Beta types all like intensity" and call it a quadra value. Great. Yeah. We're all intense. But then, classical socionics theory goes further and says IEIs should ideally pull the Jerry Maguire and find that SLEs "complete them". Bah.

What if SLEs in question like to find their intensity shooting up and smashing things while listening to blaring country music? What the hell? Am I going to find a redneck drug addict SLE would provide a better relation than a very responsible and sensitive EIE just because they're my dual?

Of course, someone will probably bring up the "healthy vs. unhealthy" issue to explain this. However, where does classical socionic theory account for "health" level?? What does that mean? How is that determined?

Or perhaps it's just that all typological explanations are at some level fundamentally inadequate.

[Joy]

What if SLEs in question like to find their intensity shooting up and smashing things while listening to blaring country music? What the hell? Am I going to find a redneck drug addict SLE would provide a better relation than a very responsible and sensitive EIE just because they're my dual?

Of course not. There are many, many ways in which people can be compatible. Socionics is just one of them.

[marooned]

Valuing a function just means it's a quadra value (I thought). I like Se for instance. This doesn't mean that Se is my first or second function (in fact I rarely seem to use Se)... it does mean it's probably part of my quadra values: Se/Ni > Si/Ne. All that does is narrow me down to 2 quadras to consider rather than all 4.

[aestrivex]

Don't ask me, you were the one who used that phrase.

Damn, why is everyone so in love with "Te" these days anyways? Sigh.

i find that most people around here cant get enough of repeatedly bashing Te concepts (at least as far as socionics is concerned) into the wall.

[Joy]

Valuing a function just means it's a quadra value (I thought). I like Se for instance. This doesn't mean that Se is my first or second function (in fact I rarely seem to use Se)... it does mean it's probably part of my quadra values: Se/Ni > Si/Ne. All that does is narrow me down to 2 quadras to consider rather than all 4.

Yes.

Don't ask me, you were the one who used that phrase.

Damn, why is everyone so in love with "Te" these days anyways? Sigh.

i find that most people around here cant get enough of repeatedly bashing Te concepts (at least as far as socionics is concerned) into the wall.

I wrote that in a PM, and I was referring to mistypings.

[marooned]

[s:b4532cf167]Where is the source material for these merry/serious... reasonable/resolute quadra distinctions? If anyone can provide a link, I'd be most appreciative. [/s:b4532cf167]

Resolved.