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Thread: ESTp (SLE) Enneagram type 6 and 8

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    Default ESTp (SLE) Enneagram type 6 and 8

    I want to know the difference between an SLE 6 (like Anthony Hopkins for example) and an SLE 8 (like Marlon Brando).

    Perhaps SLE-Tis are more likely to be 6s, and SLE-Ses are more likely to be 8s, although this is by no means all-encompassing.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Default Re: SLE: 6 and 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I want to know the difference between an SLE 6 (like Anthony Hopkins for example) and an SLE 8 (like Marlon Brando).

    Perhaps SLE-Tis are more likely to be 6s, and SLE-Ses are more likely to be 8s, although this is by no means all-encompassing.
    When I hesitate between E6 and E8, I admit that both E6 and E8 are depressive types, but E6 is an anxious type. E8 isn't.

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    What do you mean by 'depressive' and 'anxious'? Are you talking about everyday usage of the terms or in reference to some kind of dichotomy or socionics explanation?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    What do you mean by 'depressive' and 'anxious'? Are you talking about everyday usage of the terms or in reference to some kind of dichotomy or socionics explanation?
    No. I'm talking of physiological properties (i.e. neurochemical levels) that are correlated to, but independant from socionics.

    According to an enneagram theorist, types 468 are depressive, and types 567 are anxious. You should read this thread for more information : http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14540

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    Interesting. 4s, 6s and 8s are in the Reactive triad in the Enneagram, so that would make sense. 5s, 6s and 7s are all Head types.

    Don't know what all that shit about maths you were churning out was though.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    all SLEs are 9w3 by definition.

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    MARLON BRANDO IS AN SLE YOU FUCKING HERETIC AGHHHRHRHRHRHGHGHGHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    I do think Marlon Brando was SLE, but 7w8 rather than 8.

    And I don't think a SLE can be a 6, counterphobic or not.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I do think Marlon Brando was SLE, but 7w8 rather than 8.
    Far enough if he was cited as an 8w7, but he wasn't. He was cited as an 8w9. And there's no mistaking 8w9 and 7w8.

    And I don't think a SLE can be a 6, counterphobic or not.
    Then Mike Tyson is not an SLE. Anthony Hopkins is not an SLE either.

    Why do you not think SLEs can be 6s?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I do think Marlon Brando was SLE, but 7w8 rather than 8.

    And I don't think a SLE can be a 6, counterphobic or not.
    SLE is more 7-ish than 8-ish, because Sevens are impulsive by their nature. They are mostly dominants.

    cp6, as they have high norepinephrine levels, Irrational Sixes are rather scarce, because of low stress tolerance. (Although I have a case of a 6-IEE, but is he rather 8 or 4 ?)

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    SLE is more 7-ish than 8-ish, because Sevens are impulsive by their nature. They are mostly dominants.
    In MBTT, yes. But the emphasis on power in socionics makes Se much more 8-related.

    cp6, as they have high norepinephrine levels, Irrational Sixes are rather scarce, because of low stress tolerance.
    Cp6s are irrational.

    (Although I have a case of a 6-IEE, but is he rather 8 or 4 ?)
    A NeFi 8? Can't see it. Perhaps 4, but that's still tough to see.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    SLE is more 7-ish than 8-ish, because Sevens are impulsive by their nature. They are mostly dominants.
    In MBTT, yes. But the emphasis on power in socionics makes Se much more 8-related.
    Even if you are right about the possible relation between Se and type 8, the most typical 8 is not an SLE for the reasons mentioned by machintruc. And SLEs are definitely much more impulsive than LIEs -- in Socionics too. Every serious socionist knows that. Just a little example of what I'm talking about:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Likewise, he [Putin] does not have the impulsiveness and improvisation of a SLE.
    http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/lsi.shtml

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    SLE is more 7-ish than 8-ish, because Sevens are impulsive by their nature. They are mostly dominants.
    In MBTT, yes. But the emphasis on power in socionics makes Se much more 8-related.
    Even if you are right about the possible relation between Se and type 8, the most typical 8 is not an SLE for the reasons mentioned by machintruc. And SLEs are definitely much more impulsive than LIEs -- in Socionics too. Every serious socionist knows that. Just a little example of what I'm talking about:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Likewise, he [Putin] does not have the impulsiveness and improvisation of a SLE.
    http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/lsi.shtml
    Wrong logic - if SLEs are more impulsive than LSIs that does not mean SLEs are more impulsive than LIEs.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Wrong logic - if SLEs are more impulsive than LSIs that does not mean SLEs are more impulsive than LIEs.
    Correct. It doesn't follow. I should have limited my statement to the claim that SLEs are in fact impulsive and improvising in general. But, as you know, Ezra has been hesitating between SLE and LIE, and he almost seems to think that SLEs are just as orderly as LIEs and that LIEs are just as impulsive as SLEs. You and Ezra can be the same type; have you explained to him the reasons why you have thought you were one or the other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Even if you are right about the possible relation between Se and type 8, the most typical 8 is not an SLE for the reasons mentioned by machintruc. And SLEs are definitely much more impulsive than LIEs -- in Socionics too. Every serious socionist knows that.
    Phaedrus, out of interest, which type do you think fits 8 best?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Just a little example of what I'm talking about:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Likewise, he [Putin] does not have the impulsiveness and improvisation of a SLE.
    http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/lsi.shtml
    This kind of thing points away from me for SLE. I am not impulsive. Nor am I particularly good at improvisation. A good example of this was when I was in a club yesterday. My mate told me to get in and dance with this group of girls and I told him to wait and see what they looked like before taking action. To him, pussy is pussy (or he's simply impulsive). To me, quality matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    have you explained to him the reasons why you have thought you were one or the other?
    Yes, please do, Fabio. I'm still interested.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Phaedrus, out of interest, which type do you think fits 8 best?
    LIE. Every LIE I know in real life (I know a few, and I am certain of their socionic type in case you wonder about that) is clearly an 8. The SLEs I know (I know a few of them too) are probably not 8s, and even if one or two of them really are 8s, that is not at all obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra

    And I don't think a SLE can be a 6, counterphobic or not.
    Then Mike Tyson is not an SLE. Anthony Hopkins is not an SLE either.
    What makes you think they are 6?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Why do you not think SLEs can be 6s?
    Because their motivations and fears do not seem consistent with those of 6s at all.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    What makes you think they are 6?
    In Enneagram circles, they're both cited as 6s. To differentiate between Tyson as an 8 and as a 6, Ali, an 8w7 is used. He shows that Tyson is a 6. I don't exactly know how, because I haven't looked at the two boxers in depth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Because their motivations and fears do not seem consistent with those of 6s at all.
    I know the SLE's motivations are based around conquering territory (which, yes, you're right, are inconsistent with a 6's), but what are their fears?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    In Enneagram circles, they're both cited as 6s. To differentiate between Tyson as an 8 and as a 6, Ali, an 8w7 is used. He shows that Tyson is a 6. I don't exactly know how, because I haven't looked at the two boxers in depth.
    If you don't even know why Tyson should be a 6, then you have a very feeble base to make statements like "he can't be a SLE".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I know the SLE's motivations are based around conquering territory (which, yes, you're right, are inconsistent with a 6's), but what are their fears?
    I'd say that it's fear of not really having what it takes, in terms of their abilities in non-Se areas; of their being exposed as fraud in those areas, and of having a life with no greater meaning.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I'd say that it's fear of not really having what it takes, in terms of their abilities in non-Se areas; of their being exposed as fraud in those areas, and of having a life with no greater meaning.
    I don't see how that isn't compatible with a 6.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I'd say that it's fear of not really having what it takes, in terms of their abilities in non-Se areas; of their being exposed as fraud in those areas, and of having a life with no greater meaning.
    I don't see how that isn't compatible with a 6.
    As far as it goes, it is, ok. But are 6's main motivations really those of the SLE?

    Also, it's a big part of 6's fears to be left without someone to give support and loyalty to the 6 - those are hardly compatible with SLE as a major fear.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I haven't met any SLE 6s. Mostly 7s, 3s or 8s. Personally I'm a 7w8, and don't relate to 6 at all.
    , Se-sub
    8w8-3w8-7w8 sx/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I'd say that it's fear of not really having what it takes, in terms of their abilities in non-Se areas; of their being exposed as fraud in those areas, and of having a life with no greater meaning.
    I don't see how that isn't compatible with a 6.
    As far as it goes, it is, ok. But are 6's main motivations really those of the SLE?
    Well, a cp6 might be afraid of being exposed for cowardice, for example, which is why they take the counterphobic stance in the first place.

    However, concerning

    Abilities are perhaps also related to the cp6, especially if you consider this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eli Jaxon-Bear
    The Sexual Six is called Strength and Beauty. The sexual drive fed into fear and doubt creates the desire for a powerful and/or beautiful body that will make alliances with other powerful/beautiful bodies in order to survive. If the Warm Six is a Chihuahua and a Social Six a Bulldog, then the Sexual Six is a Doberman. Black belts in karate that saunter through the ghetto looking for a fight, sky divers, bungee cord jumpers, jet fighter pilots, mountain climbers, the sexual Six is attracted to being in control on the edge of danger. Sylvester Stallone and Brigitt Nilson are the classic Strength and Beauty couple.

    Often Sexual Sixes will identify themselves as Eights, Fours, Twos or Sevens. Sexual Sixes are the most masked of any fixation.

    Because the terror is avoided by a mask of strength and beauty, the mask is conceived of as another fixation entirely. In this way the issue of fear need never be addressed.

    The terror is in the sexual arena, making sex a deceitful adventure of role-playing behind a mask. Sex is usually perceived as a performance and can tend to be hard and fast as a way of avoiding deep intimacy. Madonna, for example, displays a form of the counter-phobic Sexual Six identity.
    Source

    Certainly it talks about Se to some extent, but there is stuff to do with Fi there (sex).

    Also, it's a big part of 6's fears to be left without someone to give support and loyalty to the 6 - those are hardly compatible with SLE as a major fear.
    True.

    FTR, I think the SLE's fears are more compatible with 8w7 than 7w8.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Just read up that 6 and 8 have one important distinguishment - 6's aggression is that of feeling like a victim, while the aggressive 8 would never label themselves as such.

    8 prevents through attacking, while 6 is in a reactionary position to threat.

    That's why SLEs aren't typically sixes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Just read up that 6 and 8 have one important distinguishment - 6's aggression is that of feeling like a victim, while the aggressive 8 would never label themselves as such.

    8 prevents through attacking, while 6 is in a reactionary position to threat.

    That's why SLEs aren't typically sixes.
    Ezra is LIE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Ezra is LIE
    My comment targeted the general topic, not him. But interesting, I really thought he'd make a good SLE-Ti as in his self-typing and going by the posts. But I'm not really familiar with him

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    My comment targeted the general topic, not him. But interesting, I really thought he'd make a good SLE-Ti as in his self-typing and going by the posts. But I'm not really familiar with him
    I am familiar with him for too many years now

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    I type my brother SLE 6. I don't think an SLE would never desire support or feel defensive...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I am familiar with him for too many years now
    Fair enough

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Also, it's a big part of 6's fears to be left without someone to give support and loyalty to the 6 - those are hardly compatible with SLE as a major fear.
    This is the only comment of Expat's in this thread that I'm in disagreement with. I think with Fi polr and the issue of personal/emotional connections being very hot/cold, issues with people, groups, and loyalty can indeed be cornerstone anxiety-inducing fears or problems in the life of an SLE.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    I type my brother SLE 6. I don't think an SLE would never desire support or feel defensive...
    Case in point. I agree.


    @Viktor Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    I think with Fi polr and the issue of personal/emotional connections being very hot/cold, issues with people, groups, and loyalty can indeed be cornerstone anxiety-inducing fears or problems in the life of an SLE.
    I have seen this concern for loyalty and support in SLE's myself.

    I belong to an Astronomy club, and one of the members is a great guy who is an SLE. I've always liked and kind of supported him in the background, and I've been amazed sometimes at the vehemence he shows in supporting or talking me up to other members. One part of my surprise at this is the fact that LIE's don't really expect to be liked, but what he does is above and beyond. I've always attributed his loyalty to the idea that he can't tell very well when people like him, so when someone clearly shows that they do like him, he jumps on that.

    In another case, I work with an SLE, and I have noticed that when he is feeling threatened about his job security (like, he thinks there might not be enough work for him - he doesn't realize where the money comes from), he can get sensitive about whether people say Hi to him when he greets them. I know that anyone could do this in these circumstances, but he seems more sensitive than most.

    I'm used to the Fe-PoLR behavior of ILI's, who basically tell you to f**k off on first meeting, and if you ignore that and stick around and show them that you actually like them, you are good, so the Fi-PoLR behavior of SLE's was not too much of a change for me to deal with. But then, I have Fe-role and some Fi, and am an SLE's Benefactor, which sort of turns out to give me some kind of limited pass that others might not get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I belong to an Astronomy club
    That's so cool!

    I've always attributed his loyalty to the idea that he can't tell very well when people like him, so when someone clearly shows that they do like him, he jumps on that.
    he can get sensitive about whether people say Hi to him when he greets them. I know that anyone could do this in these circumstances, but he seems more sensitive than most.
    I'm like this lol. I have some constant focus or awareness of "So" issues like this, which could be part Fe HA / Fi polr, so it's been hard for me to get a sense of which stacking I am for a while, because of the interplay of all these things. ( @Cassandra @Chae -- and yup I'm working on the enneagram quiz soon! )

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffer View Post
    This is the only comment of Expat's in this thread that I'm in disagreement with. I think with Fi polr and the issue of personal/emotional connections being very hot/cold, issues with people, groups, and loyalty can indeed be cornerstone anxiety-inducing fears or problems in the life of an SLE.



    Case in point. I agree.


    @Viktor Any thoughts?
    Expat is wrong, SLE 6s exist. I think that Fe HA is connected to it more so than Fi PoLR, wanting to be liked by other people goes hand in hand with loyalty. SLE 6 makes perfect sense if you think of them as warriors or football players, or any form of team effort where you need to be loyal to your team mates. Also regarding 6 sx specifically, it's a common stereotype that SLEs do sky diving right? Why do you think they do it, cuz it's fun? You'd have to be insane to do something like that just because it's fun, they do it to overcome the fear. I know an SLE that said this, he was affraid of it so he did it, cp6. I think that enneagram is connected to upbringing while socionics is with you from birth. The reason why I belive you are born with a socionics type is because you can VI people, Se egos look physically different from Si egos for example, and if socionics type changed based on your upbringing VI-ing would be impossible, because you can't see that based on appearance. Enneagram on the other hand I believe differs based on upbringing, I read about this in "the complete enneagram". 8s often get physically abused as children so they have to grow up quickly and avoid being vulnerable, and 6s live in unpredictable or unsafe environments where you need to be vigilant. That's not to say that any type can be 8, or 6, because I believe that other types will instead use other methods to deal with it, but for SLE I think both 8 and 6 are possible. People in this thread are talking about whether SLE fears lign up perfectly with 6 fears, but socionics and enneagram are two different systems and there is not a 1:1 corellation, some SLEs are 6-ish some are 8-ish. 8 ligns up well with SLE because of the aggression aspect, but Se aggression is present in all SLEs, and 8 aggression is a different kind of aggression on top of that for some SLEs. I'm also aggressive, but I don't feel the need to control other people in the way 8s do, because I've never had an issue with having to avoid vulnerability, I've always been bigger than everyone else my age and I got by without the 8 mindset. My issues where related to security and being accepted, hence 6

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viktor View Post
    Expat is wrong, SLE 6s exist. I think that Fe HA is connected to it more so than Fi PoLR, wanting to be liked by other people goes hand in hand with loyalty. SLE 6 makes perfect sense if you think of them as warriors or football players, or any form of team effort where you need to be loyal to your team mates. Also regarding 6 sx specifically, it's a common stereotype that SLEs do sky diving right? Why do you think they do it, cuz it's fun? You'd have to be insane to do something like that just because it's fun, they do it to overcome the fear. I know an SLE that said this, he was affraid of it so he did it, cp6. I think that enneagram is connected to upbringing while socionics is with you from birth. The reason why I belive you are born with a socionics type is because you can VI people, Se egos look physically different from Si egos for example, and if socionics type changed based on your upbringing VI-ing would be impossible, because you can't see that based on appearance. Enneagram on the other hand I believe differs based on upbringing, I read about this in "the complete enneagram". 8s often get physically abused as children so they have to grow up quickly and avoid being vulnerable, and 6s live in unpredictable or unsafe environments where you need to be vigilant. That's not to say that any type can be 8, or 6, because I believe that other types will instead use other methods to deal with it, but for SLE I think both 8 and 6 are possible. People in this thread are talking about whether SLE fears lign up perfectly with 6 fears, but socionics and enneagram are two different systems and there is not a 1:1 corellation, some SLEs are 6-ish some are 8-ish. 8 ligns up well with SLE because of the aggression aspect, but Se aggression is present in all SLEs, and 8 aggression is a different kind of aggression on top of that for some SLEs. I'm also aggressive, but I don't feel the need to control other people in the way 8s do, because I've never had an issue with having to avoid vulnerability, I've always been bigger than everyone else my age and I got by without the 8 mindset. My issues where related to security and being accepted, hence 6
    Wow. I haven't read a post with such clear thinking and concise thoughts like this since I was reading on the INTP forums when I was like 13. You're awesome Viktor.

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    I agree with Viktor there, a lot of SLEs are actually Counterphobic 6s.

    Two examples I can think of at the top of my head:
    Ronda Rousey (CP 6) vs The Hodge Twins (8).

    They both look very similar (in vibe and presentation, I mean )
    I'd argue that both Ronda and the Twins are Sx/Sp and the Justice Fighter (683) Tritype.
    However, there are a few differences.

    Ronda Rousey is very much driven by fear; read up on some quotes and her book, she's written about having to overcome her fears and so forth before. She also goes out of her way to look intimidating and strong, which is a Counterphobic mechanism: frighten the others so that they won't frighten you.

    "People say to me all the time, 'You have no fear.' I tell them, 'No, that's not true. I'm scared all the time. You have to have fear in order to have courage. I'm a courageous person because I'm a scared person.'"
    The Hodge Twins also care about looking strong, and sometimes play with intimidation, but for them it is more of a joke.
    They are rather fearless. Neither going actively against fear, nor trying to run away from it.
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