About "functional dynamics" and subtypes

[XoX]

This is related to what was discussed in this thread and page:
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...855cfb939f8db9

Ok. So here is the revised version which makes an effort to separate "value" and "strength" of a function. Increased strength means that you have increased capability to apply that function. Increased value means that you have increased appreciation for the capability to use that function.

A) Each function belongs to a realm and has a direction. Realms are sensory, intuitive,
logical, and ethical. Directions are extroverted and introverted. In addition to this functions can be classified as rational and irrational. Let's call this the functions nature.

B) Each function has complementary function, competing function, and conflicting function among the functions of same nature. In addition the function is blocked with another function having a different nature and direction. E.g. an introverted rational function gets blocked with extroverted irrational function and so on. I won't explain the blocking dynamics more in this post I just apply them.

C) Complementary function has the same nature, is in different realm and has a different direction. For e.g. Te the complementary function is Fi. When a function gets stronger and more valued the complementary function gets weaker and more valued (and the opposite).

D) Competing function has the same nature, is in same realm and has different direction. For e.g. Te the competing function is Ti. When a function gets stronger and more valued the competing function get stronger but less valued (and the opposite).

E) Conflicting function has the same nature, is in different realm and has same direction. For e.g. Te the conflicting function is Fe. When a function gets stronger and more valued the conflicting function gets weaker and less valued (and the opposite).

So to apply this to the type INFp i.e. how "intuitive subtype INFp" differs from average INFp:
Ni is stronger and more valued
Fe is weaker and is less valued (this is caused by an "intra-block suppression effect" which I didn't describe)
Si is weaker and less valued
Te is stronger and more valued
Se is weaker but more valued
Ti is stronger but less valued
Ne is stronger but less valued
Fi is weaker but more valued

In practice this implies e.g. that for Ni-subtype INFp the "perfect dual" is Se-subtype ESTp.

[Ezra]

So to apply this to the type INFp i.e. how "intuitive subtype INFp" differs from average INFp:
Ni is stronger and more valued
Fe is weaker and is less valued (this is caused by an "intra-block suppression effect" which I didn't describe)
Si is weaker and less valued
Te is stronger and more valued
Se is weaker but more valued
Ti is stronger but less valued
Ne is stronger but less valued
Fi is weaker but more valued

In practice this implies e.g. that for Ni-subtype INFp the "perfect dual" is Se-subtype ESTp.

I guess that means an IEI-Fe has stronger, less valued Ni but weaker and more valued Fe, yeah?

So a Fe-subtype IEI is the best for an SLE-Ti?

[XoX]

So to apply this to the type INFp i.e. how "intuitive subtype INFp" differs from average INFp:
Ni is stronger and more valued
Fe is weaker and is less valued (this is caused by an "intra-block suppression effect" which I didn't describe)
Si is weaker and less valued
Te is stronger and more valued
Se is weaker but more valued
Ti is stronger but less valued
Ne is stronger but less valued
Fi is weaker but more valued

In practice this implies e.g. that for Ni-subtype INFp the "perfect dual" is Se-subtype ESTp.

I guess that means an IEI-Fe has stronger, less valued Ni but weaker and more valued Fe, yeah?

So a Fe-subtype IEI is the best for an SLE-Ti?

Let's put the rules to teh test.

INFp-Fe
Ni is weaker and less valued
Fe is stronger and more valued
Si is stronger and more valued
Te is weaker and less valued
Se is stronger but less valued
Ti is weaker but more valued
Ne is weaker but more valued
Fi is stronger but less valued

So INFp-Fe is more suitable to ESTp-Ti. At the same time it might be that ENTp-Ti is more suitable for INFp-Fe than is ESFp-Se. Similarly ESFp-Se is more suitable for INFp-Ni than is ENTp-Ti. This I'm not completely sure about.

In order to make it more simple and not always go by these difficult rules it is easier to get a big picture of a) what functions get stronger and weaker when you are of certain subtype and b) towards which wing quadra your values move

So to simplify:
INFp-Ni has stronger NT functions and values move towards Gamma.
INFp-Fe has stronger SF functions and values move towards Alpha.

[ScarlettLux]

So to apply this to the type INFp i.e. how "intuitive subtype INFp" differs from average INFp:
Ni is stronger and more valued
Fe is weaker and is less valued (this is caused by an "intra-block suppression effect" which I didn't describe)
Si is weaker and less valued
Te is stronger and more valued
Se is weaker but more valued
Ti is stronger but less valued
Ne is stronger but less valued
Fi is weaker but more valued

In practice this implies e.g. that for Ni-subtype INFp the "perfect dual" is Se-subtype ESTp.

I guess that means an IEI-Fe has stronger, less valued Ni but weaker and more valued Fe, yeah?

So a Fe-subtype IEI is the best for an SLE-Ti?

Let's put the rules to teh test.

INFp-Fe
Ni is weaker and less valued
Fe is stronger and more valued
Si is stronger and more valued
Te is weaker and less valued
Se is stronger but less valued
Ti is weaker but more valued
Ne is weaker but more valued
Fi is stronger but less valued

So INFp-Fe is more suitable to ESTp-Ti. At the same time it might be that ENTp-Ti is more suitable for INFp-Fe than is ESFp-Se. Similarly ESFp-Se is more suitable for INFp-Ni than is ENTp-Ti. This I'm not completely sure about.

In order to make it more simple and not always go by these difficult rules it is easier to get a big picture of a) what functions get stronger and weaker when you are of certain subtype and b) towards which wing quadra your values move

So to simplify:
INFp-Ni has stronger NT functions and values move towards Gamma.
INFp-Fe has stronger SF functions and values move towards Alpha.

Very nice, makes sense and what I have always thought about the differences between INFp Ni and INFp Fe. What about ENFj Fe and Ni?

[Suomea]

Let's put the rules to teh test.

INFp-Fe
Ni is weaker and less valued
Fe is stronger and more valued
Si is stronger and more valued
Te is weaker and less valued
Se is stronger but less valued
Ti is weaker but more valued
Ne is weaker but more valued
Fi is stronger but less valued

So INFp-Fe is more suitable to ESTp-Ti. At the same time it might be that ENTp-Ti is more suitable for INFp-Fe than is ESFp-Se. Similarly ESFp-Se is more suitable for INFp-Ni than is ENTp-Ti. This I'm not completely sure about.

In order to make it more simple and not always go by these difficult rules it is easier to get a big picture of a) what functions get stronger and weaker when you are of certain subtype and b) towards which wing quadra your values move

So to simplify:
INFp-Ni has stronger NT functions and values move towards Gamma.
INFp-Fe has stronger SF functions and values move towards Alpha.

This is actually something that other socionicists have noticed I believe and why creative subtypes often display sexual characteristics of opposing views (aggressors---->psuedo infantiles and vice versa, victims---->psuedo carefuls and vice versa). By the way.... had a serious relationship with an INFp-Fe......... and I'm a Ti subtype I would say. Very good post by the way.

[Suomea]

Will look at all the implications when my minds not quite as tired as well.....

[XoX]

Here is a list of all subtypes. (if you find any errors or bugs tell me and I fix them)

Alpha Quadra:
ESFj-Fe has stronger NF functions and values move toward Beta.
ESFj-Si has stronger ST functions and values move toward Delta.

ISFp-Fe has stronger NF functions and values move toward Beta.
ISFp-Si has stronger ST functions and values move toward Delta.

ENTp-Ne has stronger NF functions and values move toward Delta.
ENTp-Ti has stronger ST functions and values move toward Beta.

INTj-Ne has stronger NF functions and values move toward Delta.
INTj-Ti has stronger ST functions and values move toward Beta.

Beta Quadra:
ENFj-Fe has stronger SF functions and values move toward Alpha.
ENFj-Ni has stronger NT functions and values move toward Gamma.

INFp-Fe has stronger SF functions and values move toward Alpha.
INFp-Ni has stronger NT functions and values move toward Gamma.

ESTp-Se has stronger SF functions and values move toward Gamma.
ESTp-Ti has stronger NT functions and values move toward Alpha.

ISTj-Se has stronger SF functions and values move toward Gamma.
ISTj-Ti has stronger NT functions and values move toward Alpha.

Gamma Quadra:
ENTj-Te has stronger ST functions and values move toward Delta.
ENTj-Ni has stronger NF functions and values move toward Beta.

INTp-Te has stronger ST functions and values move toward Delta.
INTp-Ni has stronger NF functions and values move toward Beta.

ESFp-Se has stronger ST functions and values move toward Beta.
ESFp-Fi has stronger NF functions and values move toward Delta.

ISFj-Se has stronger ST functions and values move toward Beta.
ISFj-Fi has stronger NF functions and values move toward Delta.

Delta Quadra:
ESTj-Te has stronger NT functions and values move toward Gamma.
ESTj-Si has stronger SF functions and values move toward Alpha.

ISTp-Te has stronger NT functions and values move toward Gamma.
ISTp-Si has stronger SF functions and values move toward Alpha.

ENFp-Ne has stronger NT functions and values move toward Alpha.
ENFp-Fi has stronger SF functions and values move toward Gamma.

INFj-Ne has stronger NT functions and values move toward Alpha.
INFj-Fi has stronger SF functions and values move toward Gamma.


Now that I have written these down they seem pretty obvious and something which I already knew. Heh. I think the greatest contribution is that when you are considering subtypes remember to not only consider the strength of your functions but also your values. Different subtypes differ both in functional preference/strength and in value preference. This might help when choosing a subtype. However this does not help differentiate between mirror types (like ENFj and INFp).

So ScarlettLux in your case if your values are more Alpha/Beta than Beta/Gamma then it confirms you are likely a Fe-subtype INFp or ENFj (assuming you are one of those two types). To differentiate between those is harder. Perhaps you could figure out whether ENTp-Ti or INTj-Ti is closer to your dual. If ENTp-Ti is closer then it suggests INFp-Fe. If INTj-Ti is closer then it suggests ENFj-Fe.

[Blaze]

cept i'm entp/ne and move toward beta.

[XoX]

cept i'm entp/ne and move toward beta.

But you don't count You are an exception to the rule.

try{
  execute teh normal socionics algorithm
} 
catch(BlazeException){
  execute teh Blaze algorithm
}

But if you are not an exception then you either are not ENTp-Ne or your values don't move toward Beta. Reality cannot defy theory around here.

[Blaze]

cept i'm entp/ne and move toward beta.

But you don't count You are an exception to the rule.

try{
  execute teh normal socionics algorithm
} 
catch(BlazeException){
  execute teh Blaze algorithm
}

But if you are not an exception then you either are not ENTp-Ne or your values don't move toward Beta. Reality cannot defy theory around here.

why do you keep telling me i don't count??!!

i so count. as a matter of fact, i count more since i've been alive twice as long as a lot of people here, therefore the validity of socionics as manifested over a number of years can better be substantiated through members such as myself! :wink:

a theory is only as good as its application and face validity....

[XoX]

i so count. as a matter of fact, i count more since i've been alive twice as long as a lot of people here, therefore the validity of socionics as manifested over a number of years can better be substantiated through members such as myself! :wink:

a theory is only as good as its application and face validity....

Ok you count First define to me what exactly do you mean by "ENTp-Ne who has Alpha/Beta values"? More specifically how do you define Ne-subtype ENTp. What does it mean to you to have Ne-subtype. How does it differ from average ENTp in your opinion. Or even more spesific: how do you see yourself differing from average ENTp? Which functions are stronger and weaker. Which are more and less valued.

[Blaze]

i so count. as a matter of fact, i count more since i've been alive twice as long as a lot of people here, therefore the validity of socionics as manifested over a number of years can better be substantiated through members such as myself! :wink:

a theory is only as good as its application and face validity....

Ok you count First define to me what exactly do you mean by "ENTp-Ne who has Alpha/Beta values"? More specifically how do you define Ne-subtype ENTp. What does it mean to you to have Ne-subtype. How does it differ from average ENTp in your opinion. Or even more spesific: how do you see yourself differing from average ENTp? Which functions are stronger and weaker. Which are more and less valued.

oh man now you have to go and make me explain myself?? hahaha thanks for letting me count by the way. *smiles*

Ne subtype: my Ne is definitely stronger than my Ti is all. i see possibilities automatically, whereas Ti is kind of like a well worn tool i frequently use. a tool i have to decide to pick up and use. Ne is like who i am or something.

On difference: there are probably more male entp's than female ones. so i probably am more emotional on average than they are. i lived my childhood in a delta family under the constant paradox of infj criticism yet support. i have taken polr hits on a regular basis from said infj my entire life. this has affected my self esteem which is slowly improving over time.

Values: i think i seek Si less than the average entp. this is because i do this stuff myself already. many women do. but i still value Si and find it pretty comforting. i do kind of value Se...it's just so great how Se gets stuff to happen. plus it gets said infj back. *smirk* although they will freeze you out if you do too much Se retaliation. i seem to value Fe quite a bit as well, perhaps more like an intj. right now i appreciate Ni as well because of infp man. *smiles again*

ok so to conclude: since i supervise and benefact members of beta, i am more attracted to beta to begin with. i'd rather supervise than be supervised. plus because of my marriage and life experiences, i have basically been around a lot of betas my whole life and have connected well with beta values. not that i don't value alpha, alpha's really the most natural, but beta is a good second best. delta holds too many spirits and ghosts for my in the main, and gamma is like whaaaat???

[XoX]

To Blazer:

I thought about this a bit more and in essence you are saying that you are ENTp that uses a lot of Ne (and thus has clear preference of Ne>Se) but who wants to be with people that use a lot of Se (and thus have a clear preference of Se>Ne).
Se and Ne should not be capable of living in this kind of harmony. It is analogous to having an ENTj-Te who prefers to be around Fe people or ENFj-Fe who prefers to be around Te people. It looks like a paradox.

You prefer Ne>Se in yourself but Se>Ne in other people. The only explanation that comes to my mind is that functional strength/preference in yourself and "valuing" a function in others are completely unrelated to each other. This leads to four subtypes instead of two. Where two of the subtypes are "typical subtypes" and two of the subtypes are "atypical subtypes".

Alpha/Delta ENTp-Ne ("typical subtype")
Alpha/Delta ENTp-Ti ("atypical subtype")

Alpha/Beta ENTp-Ne ("atypical subtype")
Alpha/Beta ENTp-Ti ("typical subtype")

This kind of atypical subtype would be a weird beast indeed. I won't even try to understand that yet. Of course the most simple explanation is that you have mistyped yourself. That you are instead ENTp-Ti but you falsely interpret yourself to be ENTp-Ne or perhaps you are some kind of ESTp, ESFj-Fe or ENFj-Fe. Some effort would be needed to rule out these possibilities before writing a new and somewhat counterintuitive subtype theory. And more people need to come forward and say that they are in the same situation with you. If there were these four subtypes then there must be people who are like Expat in their own functional usage but who want to hang around with Fe-people instead of Te-people and so on. More evidence of their existence is needed. While waiting for that evidence to build up an effort to verify your type and subtype should be made. So you count but I'm still suspicious about the details

[Blaze]

XOX i just saw your post now.

i'm still not sure i really understand what you are hypothesizing, but i should explain myself a little bit more.

i value Se from a distance. and in group situations. close up and personal it's totally annoying and results in constant power struggles and disagreements. just as you are saying.

i don't think i'm a Ti subtype. but maybe others on the forum would disagree. i don't know. my Ti is pretty well developed but i still have to make some effort to use it, it's not like it just comes out like Ne. i don't know if i really buy into subtypes.

i have thought that i could be an estp but i'm just not really that alpha female nor am i all that forceful. infp man disagrees but i just can't get stuff to move around the way an estp can. the best i can do is be intellectually forceful and to resist others' attempts to get me to do stuff.

me and infp man are getting along famously....but i'm not sure of his subtype. here's how things go with him: we talk about all kinds of Ti/Fe stuff. all the time. but about every few months we come to misunderstanding about Ne/Ni. i see things staticly, i want us to pursue possibilities and expand them fully. he's dynamic, sees all the uncertainty about how things could play out over time and isn't always convinced that we should do what i think is a good idea. we resolve this but it takes at least several days.

how do we resolve it? usually by getting very here and now and reality oriented. as in what do we have to accomplish right now? how are we feeling about each other right now. is this worth it? sometimes i have to at least try a little bit of Se forcefulness and he has to try a little Si just fucking relax type of thing on me. doesn't really take a very big dose of these to set things straight though.

[misutii]

cept i'm entp/ne and move toward beta.

But you don't count You are an exception to the rule.

try{
  execute teh normal socionics algorithm
} 
catch(BlazeException){
  execute teh Blaze algorithm
}

But if you are not an exception then you either are not ENTp-Ne or your values don't move toward Beta. Reality cannot defy theory around here.

why do you keep telling me i don't count??!!

i so count. as a matter of fact, i count more since i've been alive twice as long as a lot of people here, therefore the validity of socionics as manifested over a number of years can better be substantiated through members such as myself! :wink:

a theory is only as good as its application and face validity....

I've thought about this whole subtype thing as well and believe it or not I found the same contradiction in my life. Most of the people I know, and have subtyped, seem more inclined towards the quadra that this theory predicts. Coincidentally, however, my ENTp-Ne friend's values and relations seem to fall in line with Blaze's. He's definitely more oriented towards beta than Delta. Unfortunately I don't know any other ENTps well enough to find out if this is a natural pattern but there must be something to it. As well we're best friends and he's even said that he gets along better with me (INFp) than with his ISFp-Si friend. If there's other ENTps on this board it would be interesting to see where they stand

[XoX]

Smilex made a good post related to this in another thread. The point was roughly that there is no universally superior grouping. You can build very many different kind of groups in socionics. But choosing any of those grouping to be ultimately the "best" is not possible.

However certain groupings have been suggested to have more importance than some others. E.g. Quadras are formed based on the assumption that some functions are complementary in the way that some others aren't. This has reasonable empirical evidence to make it more important than most other groupings. Another famous grouping is clubs (NT, NF, ST, SF) which is often seen as "good for work" or something. However the goodness of such groupings depends on individual preferences and it is perfectly possible that some people might prefer another kind of grouping even if most people prefer Quadras and Clubs. The context of interaction might also play a major role. It would perhaps be good to make explicit several potentially important groupings in addition to Quadras and Clubs.

One suggested important grouping was such where people share a common irrational ego-function. Their world view is similar in many ways and they bond because of this. This would form the grouping
Ne: ENTp, ENFp, INTj, INFj
Se: ESTp, ESFp, ISTj, ISFj
Ni: ENTj, ENFj, INTp, INFp
Si: ESTj, ESFj, ISTp, ISFp

Can someone figure out a fitting name for this grouping?

That said I have yet to figure out what would be the grouping that Blaze seems to appreciate the most. It is perhaps built around rational functions somehow as Fe, Ti > Te, Fi seems to have more meaning to her than e.g. relation of Se and Ne. Then again she has some positive things to say about some INFjs which messes it up a bit.

It is possible that the functional preferences and values are individual specific to the extent that enforcing specific groupings universally does not make sense in the end. For some Se people their dual is indeed a Ni type. For some other Se people with different preferences their "dual" might be another Se type.

[BLauritson]

One suggested important grouping was such where people share a common irrational ego-function. Their world view is similar in many ways and they bond because of this. This would form the grouping
Ne: ENTp, ENFp, INTj, INFj
Se: ESTp, ESFp, ISTj, ISFj
Ni: ENTj, ENFj, INTp, INFp
Si: ESTj, ESFj, ISTp, ISFp

Can someone figure out a fitting name for this grouping?

Just use the erotic attitude names:

Ne: Infantile
Se: Aggressor
Ni: Victim
Si: Caregiver/Careful/whatever it is

[XoX]

One suggested important grouping was such where people share a common irrational ego-function. Their world view is similar in many ways and they bond because of this. This would form the grouping
Ne: ENTp, ENFp, INTj, INFj
Se: ESTp, ESFp, ISTj, ISFj
Ni: ENTj, ENFj, INTp, INFp
Si: ESTj, ESFj, ISTp, ISFp

Can someone figure out a fitting name for this grouping?

Just use the erotic attitude names:

Ne: Infantile
Se: Aggressor
Ni: Victim
Si: Caregiver/Careful/whatever it is

That right. It is the erotic attitude grouping. I think this grouping could be called "Inbreeders".