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    Default Interesting Post On Socionix

    Here.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    wtf? Are you talking about the first post of that thread? What a load of crap IMO.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Why do you think that?

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    I'll just talk about the types I'm familiar with.
    The Imaginatives (-Ne/+Ni in ego, -Si/+Se agenda)
    INFj; ENFp; ENTj; INTp

    This group is define by its timeless and dreamy like imagination. This group notices all the alternatives that can go wrong in a given situation. This group is also good at seeing the mediocrity in things. The worthlessness of things is always visible to this group. This group is also good at reading people. This group likes to read people. They want to know the true motives behind peoples actions. It is good at predicting the future due to seeing past and present trends of things. These types live in the world of what will happen, not what could happen. These types have a strong need to make sure that nothing bad happens to them. They don’t want to be in pain or agony. These types will wash their hands often and keep up their hygiene. This group lacks initiative. It often has a hard time starting new endeavors. It hardly notices the wonderful little things in life that make the body feel pleasant.
    I don't think ENFps would be this is especially characteristic of ENFps. Sure they might be at times, but it's not something that they're know for. "This group is define by its timeless and dreamy like imagination"

    Don't know about the other 3. But ENFps are known to start many things at once, but not finishing them, and are more likely to continue when they feel like it.

    And reading through the other posts on the threads, more of them seem to NOT relate to the descriptions.

    Jadae: A lot of it. It is really inconsistent and nonsensical. For instance, "Often lacks the willpower to get things done," is pretty much the exact opposite of me, and most other ENFjs. But beyond that, why is this even required? And also, perhaps there is a mistranslation for what they denotations of +/- mean. It is a funny subject because often in philosophy, which is where the majority of these ideas came from, +/- usually refers to one's usage of information in an argument/criticism. For instance, + would infer that one may argue in a fashion of known, dry perimeters only in the fashion of "it is what it is". So, my basic point is, why are these even here? I dont know if we can deduce that from the texts, or if there is any reason to whatsoever.

    And over here:
    "The Originals, The Non-Conformists (+Ne/-Ni in ego, +Si/-Se agenda)
    INTj; ENTp; ENFj; INFp
    ...This group often fails to complete its tasks. Often lacks the willpower to get things done."
    And I disagree with this IME.

    Also, the descriptions are too broad, vague. You can relate to a part of each description almost equally.
    Let's see.. I relate to the non-conformists part to be original, strong need to overthrow authority, a need to rebel, etc.
    And I relate to the imaginative's "notices all the alternatives that can go wrong in a given situation", and liking to read people.

    I think you get the point? I'm lazy to go on.
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    id pretty much bet my life what you call "a load of crap". I am as certain as you can be certain of something that they are correct. Id also be willing to bet my mortgage that you aren't an ENFp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    id pretty much bet my life what you call "a load of crap". I am as certain as you can be certain of something that they are correct. Id also be willing to bet my mortgage that you aren't an ENFp.
    And Jadae is not ENFj?

    Seriously. If you think I'm not one, show me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    id pretty much bet my life what you call "a load of crap". I am as certain as you can be certain of something that they are correct. Id also be willing to bet my mortgage that you aren't an ENFp.
    And Jadae is not ENFj?

    Seriously. If you think I'm not one, show me.
    Got a picture?

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    You may be an ENFp for all I know, the point was to show that I don't care for my house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    ... Id also be willing to bet my mortgage that you aren't an ENFp.
    this means he's hoping to rid himself of paying off his morgage

    and I agree with you Mea, ENFps are notorious for starting a bunch of activities and never finishing them.
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    Thanks.

    Which makes me wonder even more about that description.

    O. I don't wanna post my picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    ... Id also be willing to bet my mortgage that you aren't an ENFp.
    this means he's hoping to rid himself of paying off his morgage

    and I agree with you Mea, ENFps are notorious for starting a bunch of activities and never finishing them.
    Nah, ENFps lack initiative. They are finishers. This isn't even a question of my model, this would be arguing Gulenko's interpretation of model A. Gulenko defined the +/- aspects of the functions, and ENFps lack -Se according to original model A.

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    FFS no no no. ENFps start a ton of projects and never finish them.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    FFS no no no. ENFps start a ton of projects and never finish them.
    "Modest". As a rule, he is not ambitious, because he can enjoy the circle of his friends and the anticipation of something interesting. Unlike The Politician, who likes to be an obvious ruler of the situation, he prefers to be its covert ruler. And his influence is directed first of all towards making other people reveal their skills and talents."

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    As I have said many many many many times before, the people on this forum do not understand what types are what. The majority of the people here are mistyped because they haven't taken the time to research their type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    ... Id also be willing to bet my mortgage that you aren't an ENFp.
    this means he's hoping to rid himself of paying off his morgage

    and I agree with you Mea, ENFps are notorious for starting a bunch of activities and never finishing them.
    Nah, ENFps lack initiative. They are finishers. This isn't even a question of my model, this would be arguing Gulenko's interpretation of model A. Gulenko defined the +/- aspects of the functions, and ENFps lack -Se according to original model A.
    I dunno, but you seem to be contradicting this:

    RIGHT - LEFT (process vs. result, evolyutory vs. involyutory)
    PRAVYE - LEVYE (protsess - rezultat, evolyutory - involyutory)

    (Because this sign was "renamed" by V.Gulenko, a confusion arose. In A.Augustinavichjute [ 2 ] and G.Reinina [ 5 ] this sign is called "left - right" (Leftists are ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE and EII, , rightists - ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE and SLI). We utilized in this article the more contemporary "opposite" designations of V.Gulenko and T.Prokofevoy (Leftists are ESE, LII, SLE, IEI, LIE, ESI, IEE and SLI, rightists - ILE, SEI, EIE, LSI, SEE, ILI, LSE and EII). As the names of the attributes do not determine the attributes themselves, the changing of the names is an insignificant detail, but still mentioned in case one encounters opposite classifications)

    Right (process, evolyutory):
    Pravye (protsess, evoljutory):

    1. Rightists feel as if they are a part of a process, they are "immersed" in it. Because of that they have great difficulty managing several tasks at once.
    2. Rightists perceive the process as a whole (Indissoluble). They tend to complete a process in one go, it is hard for them to return to previously started then abandoned projects (To return to the process that was "turned off" and continue where they left off is equivalent to starting anew)
    3. Lexicon: in speech they use the word "process" a lot.

    Left (result, involyutory):
    Levye (rezultat, involjutory):

    1. Leftists place themselves "outside of a process" and disassociate themselves from the process. For them the situation/process is something external. Because of that leftists deal with multiple tasks/affairs much more easily focusing on the beginning and end of each (They with ease govern several processes at one time)
    2. Leftists are inclined to view a process through estimations of it (They "sum up" a process) and are guided/oriented towards the end result, the successful end of a process. They do not notice that something is wrong with the process until it shows up on their estimations of it. This happens because leftists are outside of a process and as such are very bad at noticing the natural flow of the process.
    3. Lexicon: in speech often use words "beginning", "end", "stage", "interval", "result".

    Notes

    1. The basic difference between the right and the left is in the approach towards situations/processes, or more specifically, the "immersed" and "disassociated" approach when dealing with a process and the orientation on either "the result" or "the process" while neglecting the other aspect. For the leftist the results/estimations (The summing up of the process) are a tool they are forced to use in order to feel the flow of the process (Being that they are disassociated from it). The rightist on the other hand are immersed in the process and do not wish for it to be "terminated" before becoming complete (It's realization).
    2. The hypothesis that perfectionism was a part of the "right" attribute did not find confirmation. Most likely perfectionism is a personal feature and is not connected to the attribute.

    Hypothesis

    The core/foundation of these attributes is work and attention placement becoming prevailing mental activities. The attributes likely/probably emerge at a level of stability and concentration of attention that is higher then normal (When one has the ability to be concentrated on an object despite interferences). However leftist to a larger degree show an ability to "distribute" their attention in such a state (To simultaneously direct/focus their attention to multiple objects) and to completely "shift" their attention from one object/activity to another.

    Examples

    Right:
    "It's not easy to finish something, it's also not easy to start something, but the most difficult thing to do is to continue where I left off a long time ago" "I read the book in the evening to the end of the chapter and a several pages after that…….it's just that the though of an "end" is kina scary for me" "God forbid that I am "left hanging" for a long time (regarding a computer game)" "it's difficult to get it of the ground, but after that it caries itself"

    Left:
    "The matter at hand must be known. If estimations cannot be complete then they must at least be partial." "I find finishing and undertaking new work/ventures very interesting ... I like to do a well executed job" "the most horrible thing – when something just won't end" "I feel like a juggler; in my hands – activities (Processes). They all have two points – the beginning and the end" "Well why can't you simultaneously listen and eat?"
    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8991
    ENFps are Results oriented. I think their problem is not starting something, rather they leave tasks hanging, incomplete, and starting another project. Yes. You might call them finishers, but it doesn't say anything about them lacking initiative.
    Or I have completely misunderstood this dichotomy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    As I have said many many many many times before, the people on this forum do not understand what types are what. The majority of the people here are mistyped because they haven't taken the time to research their type.
    You're like saying that EVERYONE ELSE in the world is wrong, and you're the ONLY one that is right.

    Haven't you stopped to consider the possibility of that? Maybe the problem lies in you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    As I have said many many many many times before, the people on this forum do not understand what types are what. The majority of the people here are mistyped because they haven't taken the time to research their type.
    You're like saying that EVERYONE ELSE in the world is wrong, and you're the ONLY one that is right.

    Haven't you stopped to consider the possibility of that? Maybe the problem lies in you.
    You can go around think whatever you want about certain types, I could care less, I'm just telling you that you're misinterpreting how ENFps act. Take it and do what you want with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    As I have said many many many many times before, the people on this forum do not understand what types are what. The majority of the people here are mistyped because they haven't taken the time to research their type.
    I know my type. Thanks anyway.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    You can go around think whatever you want about certain types, I could care less, I'm just telling you that you're misinterpreting how ENFps act. Take it and do what you want with it.
    O well. That's what you think.

    Thanks. Think I'll stick with my type. Good to know you don't care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    You can go around think whatever you want about certain types, I could care less, I'm just telling you that you're misinterpreting how ENFps act. Take it and do what you want with it.
    O well. That's what you think.

    Thanks. Think I'll stick with my type. Good to know you don't care.
    You're failing to consider the fact that you bashed my system, and without me even caring about you, I have the right to say what I want. So I will say that you aren't an ENFp and neither is slackermom; meatburger is probably an ENFp, he reminds me of them. Not sure what other so called ENFps are on here. ENFps are very reserved people. They aren't these people that run everywhere doing everything all the time. That is a stupid stereo type that people have about ENFps. ENFps need time to reflect about things. I guarantee you if you would talk to real ENFps they would tell you that. ENFps are probably the quietest extroverted type.

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    As it turns out, I am a pretty reserved quiet person IRL. AND I start projects without finishing them. Luckily my ISTp husband doesn't seem to mind finishing projects.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Nah, ENFps lack initiative. They are finishers.
    I think you're thinking of LIEs.

    IPs lack initiative, IJs lack initiative but can finish, EPs are full of initiative but lack the ability to finish, and EJs have both initiative and the ability to finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    You can go around think whatever you want about certain types, I could care less, I'm just telling you that you're misinterpreting how ENFps act. Take it and do what you want with it.
    O well. That's what you think.

    Thanks. Think I'll stick with my type. Good to know you don't care.
    You're failing to consider the fact that you bashed my system, and without me even caring about you, I have the right to say what I want. So I will say that you aren't an ENFp and neither is slackermom; meatburger is probably an ENFp, he reminds me of them. Not sure what other so called ENFps are on here. ENFps are very reserved people. They aren't these people that run everywhere doing everything all the time. That is a stupid stereo type that people have about ENFps. ENFps need time to reflect about things. I guarantee you if you would talk to real ENFps they would tell you that. ENFps are probably the quietest extroverted type.
    have you ever looked at an enfp's home?
    seen the various books laying around? seen the various topics of those books?
    seen the various boxes stacked around the home with unfinished craft projects in them?
    been annoyed when they suggest an activity, convince you to do it, and then change their mind about it after you've already bought the tickets/items needed?
    cmon.....try some real life observations over crappy theory for a change
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    You can go around think whatever you want about certain types, I could care less, I'm just telling you that you're misinterpreting how ENFps act. Take it and do what you want with it.
    O well. That's what you think.

    Thanks. Think I'll stick with my type. Good to know you don't care.
    You're failing to consider the fact that you bashed my system, and without me even caring about you, I have the right to say what I want. So I will say that you aren't an ENFp and neither is slackermom; meatburger is probably an ENFp, he reminds me of them. Not sure what other so called ENFps are on here. ENFps are very reserved people. They aren't these people that run everywhere doing everything all the time. That is a stupid stereo type that people have about ENFps. ENFps need time to reflect about things. I guarantee you if you would talk to real ENFps they would tell you that. ENFps are probably the quietest extroverted type.
    I AM pretty quiet in real life. Going by the more common meaning of an introvert, people do tell me I'm one at times.
    You might be failing to consider subtypes.

    And of course you have the right to say what you want. So do I.
    I have no intentions to bash your system. Just pointing out the parts where I do not think sounds right. If you still think that you're right all the time, I have no comments. But sometimes, things just need to be improved.
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    This is so classic for here.

    "I have this theory. Part of it is that ENFps are X, Y, and Z."

    Three ENFps say "I'm nothing like that at all."

    "Then you aren't ENFps."

    Make the world meet your theory rather than the other while around. Fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    You can go around think whatever you want about certain types, I could care less, I'm just telling you that you're misinterpreting how ENFps act. Take it and do what you want with it.
    O well. That's what you think.

    Thanks. Think I'll stick with my type. Good to know you don't care.
    You're failing to consider the fact that you bashed my system, and without me even caring about you, I have the right to say what I want. So I will say that you aren't an ENFp and neither is slackermom; meatburger is probably an ENFp, he reminds me of them. Not sure what other so called ENFps are on here. ENFps are very reserved people. They aren't these people that run everywhere doing everything all the time. That is a stupid stereo type that people have about ENFps. ENFps need time to reflect about things. I guarantee you if you would talk to real ENFps they would tell you that. ENFps are probably the quietest extroverted type.
    have you ever looked at an enfp's home?
    seen the various books laying around? seen the various topics of those books?
    seen the various boxes stacked around the home with unfinished craft projects in them?
    been annoyed when they suggest an activity, convince you to do it, and then change their mind about it after you've already bought the tickets/items needed?
    cmon.....try some real life observations over crappy theory for a change
    well your an interesting ENFp then because most of the ENFps I know lack initiative. Although I will say this, if I had to guess anndelise's type just from talking to her/him(not sure which), I'd say INFp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    This is so classic for here.

    "I have this theory. Part of it is that ENFps are X, Y, and Z."

    Three ENFps say "I'm nothing like that at all."

    "Then you aren't ENFps."

    Make the world meet your theory rather than the other while around. Fun.

    Well you have X Y Z. I'm X .... you and the other 2 ENFps are Y, and the socionists that have been doing this for 30 years are Z. X and Z agree with each other, so by default Y is correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    well your an interesting ENFp then because most of the ENFps I know lack initiative. Although I will say this, if I had to guess anndelise's type just from talking to her/him(not sure which), I'd say INFp.
    "just from talking to her"....when have we talked?
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    well your an interesting ENFp then because most of the ENFps I know lack initiative. Although I will say this, if I had to guess anndelise's type just from talking to her/him(not sure which), I'd say INFp.
    "just from talking to her"....when have we talked?
    Right now, your an argument with me about your type, but you are sure a lack of +Se in your argument, theres no conviction in your retaliation. An ENFp would be quick to jump out at someone that started an argument. ENFps are retaliatory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    well your an interesting ENFp then because most of the ENFps I know lack initiative. Although I will say this, if I had to guess anndelise's type just from talking to her/him(not sure which), I'd say INFp.
    "just from talking to her"....when have we talked?
    Right now, your an argument with me about your type, but you are sure a lack of +Se in your argument, theres no conviction in your retaliation. An ENFp would be quick to jump out at someone that started an argument. ENFps are retaliatory.
    that didn't answer my question.
    unless you are saying that my posts to this thread are you and i talking to each other.

    in your other thread you have enfps as critiquing ideas and always finding fault...
    and yet when three enfps critique your idea and find fault with it...you say that they are not enfps??
    you say that enfps are retaliatory....wouldn't the response you got from slacker, mea, and me be considered retaliatory?
    you say that an enfp would be quick to jump out at someone that started an argument...wouldn't that "quick to jump" thing fall under...oh...say.."initiating"?

    can we say: "oops, hitta has some errors in his descriptions"??
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    This is so classic for here.

    "I have this theory. Part of it is that ENFps are X, Y, and Z."

    Three ENFps say "I'm nothing like that at all."

    "Then you aren't ENFps."

    Make the world meet your theory rather than the other while around. Fun.

    Well you have X Y Z. I'm X .... you and the other 2 ENFps are Y, and the socionists that have been doing this for 30 years are Z. X and Z agree with each other, so by default Y is correct.
    I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about at this point. You've got three ENFps telling you that you are full of shit. We lack initiative on projects we aren't interested in, but we have all the initiative in the world for projects that catch our fancy. But our interest wanes and then we don't finish things very often. That's how ENFps work. I don't know what Socionists you've been talking who have been doing this for 30 years who say otherwise, but I'm very skeptical about that claim.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Hitta, you're a dumbfuck. Go choke on semen.
    , Se-sub
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    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    well your an interesting ENFp then because most of the ENFps I know lack initiative. Although I will say this, if I had to guess anndelise's type just from talking to her/him(not sure which), I'd say INFp.
    "just from talking to her"....when have we talked?
    Right now, your an argument with me about your type, but you are sure a lack of +Se in your argument, theres no conviction in your retaliation. An ENFp would be quick to jump out at someone that started an argument. ENFps are retaliatory.
    that didn't answer my question.
    unless you are saying that my posts to this thread are you and i talking to each other.

    in your other thread you have enfps as critiquing ideas and always finding fault...
    and yet when three enfps critique your idea and find fault with it...you say that they are not enfps??
    you say that enfps are retaliatory....wouldn't the response you got from slacker, mea, and me be considered retaliatory?
    you say that an enfp would be quick to jump out at someone that started an argument...wouldn't that "quick to jump" thing fall under...oh...say.."initiating"?

    can we say: "oops, hitta has some errors in his descriptions"??
    Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession; <---- these is the Se that ENFps have

    Capture of authority, submission, attack, aggression, attack, the initiative, persistence, insistence, strong-willed pressure from top to down, the statement of the interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, lack of will, mastering<---this is the Se that ENFps lack

    ENFps will hate to start new ideas. When they start them they will finish. The quick to jump thing is retaliatory. ENFps have a need to have willpower. ENFps want to finish. Finishing is an ENFps agenda. An ENFp will not start something they won't finish. If you are having a hard time finishing, check the INFp description. And I'm not gonna even say that you aren't ENFp, hell if I know if you are ENFp are not, I shouldn't have made judgements about your type, but I am telling you, functionally ENFps lack initiative. I know a ton of ENFps. They all lack the ability to get started. Even ask your INFj brethren who will probably have the problem worse.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    Hitta, you're a dumbfuck. Go choke on semen.
    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    Hitta, you're a dumbfuck. Go choke on semen.
    at least i don't have your avatar

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    I had to read through this a couple of times to try to make sense of it..but here goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession; <---- these is the Se that ENFps have
    * insubordination doesn't require finishing anything...but it does require initiating
    * protection/defense can be interpreted as quick actions initiated in that direction...or long term. I vote that it would require a lot of love/loyalty for an enfp to maintain protection/defense for someone else....and would likely psychologically buckle under a long term need for self-protection/defense.
    * retaliation doesn't require finishing anything...only initiating
    * counterattack doesn't require finishing anything...only initiating
    * upholding of interests..that one is a bit complex, but it falls under what SlackerMom said about it having to remain an interest of the enfp..but once another interest takes over...then that one would need to be "pursued" and "upheld"...at least until another interest distracts the enfp

    Capture of authority, submission, attack, aggression, attack, the initiative, persistence, insistence, strong-willed pressure from top to down, the statement of the interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, lack of will, mastering<---this is the Se that ENFps lack
    * persistence requires pursuit of finish, it also requires will power (for some reason you have will power as an enfp trait, but fail to take into account the link between will power and persistence)
    * insistence correlates more with "finish" than with "initiating"
    * overthrow is a goal towards finishing something, and requires follow through for it's success. overthrow requires more than initiating the action towards overthrowing...momentum at the least would need to be included with the initiating action for "overthrow" to ..well...overthrow
    * how can you have "lack of will" + persistence + insistence in the same description? persistence and insistence require will power, if a person lacks will...then they'll have nothing to push the persistence/insistence
    * mastering requires finishing not intiating. yes, a person would have to initiate the steps towards mastery...but to achieve master requires seeing those steps through to completion, as well as will power and persistence

    [edit: damned misspellings!!!]
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    ok, well, the above required way too much mental energy for me.
    I'm outta here.

    Just remember hitta...
    your post at socionix ran across similar criticisms
    and now you have not only an enfj there telling you that you have the enfj part wrong...
    but now you have at least 2 unquestioned enfps (slacker and mea) telling you that you have the enfp part wrong.
    if you were truly interested in "truth" over "theory", then you'd at the least ask some more enfjs/enfps what they think of those descriptions
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    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I had to read through this a couple of times to try to make sense of it..but here goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession; <---- these is the Se that ENFps have
    * insubordination doesn't require finishing anything...but it does require initiating
    * protection/defense can be interpreted as quick actions initiated in that direction...or long term. I vote that it would require a lot of love/loyalty for an enfp to maintain protection/defense for someone else....and would likely psychologically buckle under a long term need for self-protection/defense.
    * retaliation doesn't require finishing anything...only initiating
    * counterattack doesn't require finishing anything...only initiating
    * upholding of interests..that one is a bit complex, but if alls under what SlackerMom said about it having to remain an interest of the enfp..but once another interest takes over...then that one would need to be "persued" and "upheld"...at least until another interest distracts the enfp

    Capture of authority, submission, attack, aggression, attack, the initiative, persistence, insistence, strong-willed pressure from top to down, the statement of the interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, lack of will, mastering<---this is the Se that ENFps lack
    * persistence requires pursuit of finish, it also requires will power (for some reason you have will power as an enfp trait, but fail to take into account the link between will power and persistence)
    * insistence correlates more with "finish" than with "initiating"
    * overthrow is a goal towards finishing something, and requires follow through for it's success. overthrow requires more than initiating the action towards overthrowing...momentum at the least would need to be included with the initiating action for "overthrow" to ..well...overthrow
    * how can you have "lack of will" + persistence + insistence in the same description? persistence and insistence require will power, if a person lacks will...then they'll have nothing to push the persistence/insistence
    * mastering requires finishing not intiating. yes, a person would have to initiate the steps towards mastery...but to achieve master requires seeing those steps through to completion, as well as will power and persistence

    Your missing the point, +Se is reactive sensing, and -Se is initiative sensing. ENFps have -Se as a weak function... same as INTps and ENTjs.... INTps are finishers. ENTjs are finishers. They are not starters. An ENFp will not start something unless they have a very good reason to start it. They have no problem finishing their goals. Seriously this is getting tiring, theres no way I can prove whether your wrong or right, or whether I'm wrong or right. You can go on to think what you want about what and what not ENFps do. And I also remember the fact that you debated your type for a long time. At one time you actually thought yourself to be an INFp. And if you just seen what you typed, you just used relativistic intuition. That is +Ne/-Ni. But like I said, I don't care anymore, I'm tired of arguing this subject because its not gonna go anywhere. Theres no way we can prove either way. Its just ashame that these stereotypes get created and followed by people, and they don't even think about it. I've been studying types for a very long time. And I not gonna say that I absolutely know how types acts, but I can guarantee I'm not far from being able to say that. You've been misinformed by your forum members on how types are supposed to act. And I'm not gonna say that you aren't an ENFp because theres a very good chance that you are misinterpreting your own behavior. I can't prove that you aren't an ENFp, and I have no reason to make that my intentions. The point of my argument is to say that ENFps lack initiative, but they are strong finishers. About that, all I can say is read the descriptions that the socionists have written. ENFps are not like ENTps. They are extremely different. They use totally different functions. If your looking for the people that have initiative, but lack the ability to finish, check INTj ENTp INFp and ENFj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy
    Hitta, you're a dumbfuck. Go choke on semen.
    at least i don't have your avatar
    GUD ONE!!!!11!1
    , Se-sub
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    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    ok, well, the above required way too much mental energy for me.
    I'm outta here.

    Just remember hitta...
    your post at socionix ran across similar criticisms
    and now you have not only an enfj there telling you that you have the enfj part wrong...
    but now you have at least 2 unquestioned enfps (slacker and mea) telling you that you have the enfp part wrong.
    if you were truly interested in "truth" over "theory", then you'd at the least ask some more enfjs/enfps what they think of those descriptions

    I already have asked a bunch of ENFjs and ENFps what they thought, people that I'm almost certain were their type. And they said that it sounded right. I just honestly think that the majority of the socionics community has been misinformed, I remember a couple of months ago the first thing I brought up about INTps were that they had a need to be depressed and that they didn't know how to be happy and to love. I received all kinds of criticisms. I started talking on russian forums, and the first thing that they said about INTps were that they were people that wanted to be depressed. But no, no one at this forum wanted to believe that, but the first thing that someone says when I go to a foreign forum is that INTps are depressed. Its like the people on this forum don't have an understanding of the types. They are working off of stereotypes.

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