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Thread: Dichotomic types 30

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    Default Dichotomic types 30

    Unlike previous socionics stuff I've created this is not a marathon project, more like a sunday walk. This is going to contain pondering. This is not driven by any grand ideal but purely by my sense of aesthetics, fancy and skill. Please consider all of my posts in this thread unfinished until further notice.

    ESTj
    EJ
    Te->Si
    Pragmatic
    Delta
    Emotion-creating->Tactics
    Compliant->Calculative
    Aristocratic
    Negative
    Process
    Taciturn

    And that is of course all... ... Now there's several equally correct ways to travel the following journey, I'm just picking a path and going where it leads...

    I'll start the excursion from the point of taciturnness.
    Being taciturn means here the connection of singular items like the terms above into something sensible, finding a pattern. One finds items, one tries to find a pattern between the items, once the pattern is found one applies it and seeks items to apply it on. This continues until the items start seeming more important and one starts looking for another pattern.

    Within this cycle ESTj is someone who looks for a pattern, an explanation, a solution, a connection. This is not unique, there are 8 types that do this.

    Process is about being absorbed, about identifying with the task, being invested. Personal involvement continues until it doesn't and one pauses to look at one's results an to look for new goals.

    An ESTj is someone who is absorbed.

    So ESTj is someone who is absorbed in the finding of a pattern. This is not unique either, ENTp, ESFp and ENFj are also like this.

    Let's go into negativity. It's the cycle of abilities and limitations. One fights against one's limitations until one escapes them and having escaped them one play around until one finds new one's.

    An ESTj is someone who feels limited to, compelled to find the pattern and is completely engrossed in the task. And yet the ESTj is not unique in this either cause the ENFj is like this as well.

    And the cycle of aristocracy and democracy brings no difference between these two types for they are both aristocrats. They are socially defined as people who are forced to find solutions to problems. This position is both caused by and leads into the alternate position of having solved all problems, being free to do whatever one is able to cause to achieve with one's technique and pattern, being free to choose. And this alternation between states defined by purpose, duty, honour, drive, searching, subjugation to the community and states defined by independence, vindication, frivolity, application, stable power and magnitude of vision is what characterizes the EJ.

    Likewise an IP can be characterized as someone with alternating periods in which they're either calmly and freely, with good perspective and unhurriedly looking for connections between matters that are important and significant to them personally and periods in which they are limited to performing an exposition of their known skills and understanding in as complete manner as they're able to, engrossed in the performance of a routine.

    Likewise an IJ can be characterized as someone with alternating periods of pondering from afar the solutions to any problem that they happen to have run into as a sort of striking at one's personal limitations and on the other hand periods of in which they feel free to apply their understanding and get engrossed in the performance of a task that is personally significant to them.

    Likewise an EP can be characterized as someone with alternating periods of liberally solving any issues they can in the exact manner that happens to momentarily strike them as best and which they manage to perform and on the other hand periods in which they feels forcibly removed from having an effect and remain as observers of familiar seeming patterns.

    ...

    So, why is an ESTj not an ESFj?

    The difference of time, of becoming. The change from one to another is seemingly inevitable. What then happens during this change?

    The small cycle turns. The ESTj reaches a certain state of happiness over hir ability of Si. The mastery of a variety of skills makes things easy and liberates the EJ's energies upon the change to ESFj. When the task becomes easier, the chains of duty and honor lose importance, become forgotten. There's an elation over one's accomplishments. One starts to use one's skills for unnecessary tasks, one starts to show off, to have fun. One starts to liberally apply one's skills to every imaginable purpose.
    The ESFj often still remembers the idea of duty, but it lacks power.
    During the moment of change one is as far as one can be from caring about the importance of things, goals or any such thing. One has immediate and concrete power at one's hands, the feeling of the world being one's oyster. One is over amoured by the trivial and at an utter loss as to its significance to the whole. The ESFj is the absolute master of some, few things, often of little importance except to the ESFj hirself. But the joy is genuine. Having found skill, the ESFj embarks upon a quest for purpose. This quest being something that the ESTj can scarcely imagine, being completely overtaken by the immediate task that the idea of seeking some overall meaning or reason to his activity seems laughable, idiotic even. The ESTj is interested of things s/he can imagine, things s/he might possibly solve at some point. The ESFj is looking for a greater challenge, something undefinable. S/he offers to try to solve any problem that s/he encounters until s/he finds something s/he can't handle, this something becoming hir fixation.

    The ESTj is immediate, strict, harsh when encountered. S/he wants a quick solution to any discussion. The ESFj is not in such a hurry. S/he will linger in conversation for fun, try to show off and perform to people. Though the ESFj is practising the skills, s/he is no longer feeling the need to actually gain new skills, though s/he acts the role of the master, hir development has already reached an apex. Hir Si remains impressive, but the skills are no longer rising with such alacrity.

    The process of learning is present throught the qualities of emotion-creating vs. creation-creating. The ESTj, though gruff is someone who cares about consensus, wants to understand others, to learn, doesn't feel they can overpower others and will try only when otherwise at a loss. The ESFj doesn't feel the need to accommodate. There's little enough that s/he could receive from others. Hir kindness is charity whereas the ESTj's kindness is self-debasement and thus always carries a measure of bitterness, a taste of old age.

    The ESTj is compliant. S/he will accept any amount of burden that s/he can conceive but s/he will seek ways to lighen hir load. S/he is convinced s/he will always find a way to make anything work. Perhaps not work in the best of ways, but work in some possible way. The ESFj, having found the correct solutions is no longer as careful in hir steps except as a matter of professional pride. S/he starts to become choosy, finicky, snobbish, expecting better and better things from the environment. Instead of accepting any goal s/he starts looking for that one big one, hir masterpiece. S/he starts looking for a new focus.

    And that is why an ESTj is not an ESFj.

    And the next phase?

    ENFj? Hmm... Sure, why not.

    Having found that one single, undefinable, unsolvable, unbeatable goal that defines the EJ (Fe) the EJ again becomes driven by an item, becomes defined, limited, separate from others and starts to feverishly look for answers. So if there's so much alike, why is an ENFj not an ESTj?

    ...

    Just wondering... is there someone there who sees where this is going?
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    I agree with this. Especially the IJ part.

    So you're suggesting the change in focus has to do with movement between the mental and vital tracks?

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    If you want to see what's happening you might want to look at earlier posts as well. Cheers.

    An ENFj... is the vague opposite to the ESTj's strictness.
    An ENFj has an intense personal reason for hir feverish search for a solution, but no real definition for either the task s/he needs to accomplish or the form of the answer/system/understanding s/he is looking for. S/he is unable to really explain in an understandable way what s/he is trying to do but the sheer amount of pathos s/he is able to summon makes an impression on people.

    If the ESTj seeks to go unnoticed, so as not to be bothered and to be left alone with hir troubles because then, they are manageable the ENFj seeks to make hir troubles known to all, so that someone could firmly show hir the answer. S/he is looking for a force that breaks hir gordion's knot. Something to convince hir there is no need to try to solve the problem on account of the prolem already being solved.

    Where the ESTj is personal in the sense of staying by hirself, the ENFj is personal in the sense of having a very personal conundrum. While the ESTj is willing to accept any reasonable-seeming problem to work on and any reasonable-seeming solution to such a problem the ENFj is all about the existence of that one single ultimate problem. S/he will think of no other issues and s/he will not accept any simple solution. S/he will only accept a total, ultimate, final solution to the problem once and for all.

    An ESTj is looking for personal mobility, an ENFj is looking for personal stability. An ESTj is looking for means. An ENFj is looking for an end point. While the ESTj may occasionally feel like s/he wished s/he was dead there's always a vitality to hir actions. The ENFj feels occasionally like s/he really did have a deathwish. While the ESTj is all the time mindful of danger and careful in hir actions the ENFj is completely carefree. Any change, any endresult is preferrable to her status-quo. But the change must be real. It must be meaningful. It must be grand. An ENFj will not go out with a whiff, s/he'll go out with a bang. An ENFj will push people as far as they're able to go. An ESTj will more likely try to take the air out of people's sails, flatten them.

    And that's the way these two are opposites.

    And so, after the ENFj becomes persuaded that whatever goal s/he had has been reached, a new stability and stage of liberation has again been achieved. But whereas the liberty of the ESFj hanged on hir personal exertions of skill, that of the ENTj is a given. It simply exists. S/he is free because s/he chooses to be free. It is simply the best possible way s/he has found to relate to things. But being completely independent intellectually and as a spirit the ENTj is also completely dependent on the environment. A personal attachment to something would impair hir freedom and so s/he holds back, waits, sails the currents of events. At some point, a certain frustration or boredom arises. The ENTj will start to try to control the flow of events through hir will rather than just riding the current. At first this may be a simple act of navigation, later it becomes an act of correction of flows.

    There is the idea of the ENTj knowing better than the people who are actually doing the work that creates the events that the ENTj rides. The ENTj is also extremely capable of conforming on the intellectual level and is likely to bend in the wind, though s/he is more likely to see this too as wisdom rather than lack of character. There is always a reason for any particular act of conformism. But a person can only conform so much. At some point the ENTj may simply say:" Enough!" and start to hate the flow and look for ways to make hir own fortune and create hirself a sanctuary, away from the roaring sea of events, somewhere where s/he can create situations that suit hir own will. But for that s/he needs new skills and thus a new ESTj is born.

    An ENTj is not an ESFj because... the ESFj says s/he can do and achieve anything, the ENTj says s/he doesn't have to. The ESFj is all glitter, glamour and other gl starting words. The ENTj will happily slum. The ESFj goes out to prove hir worth a thousand ways, the ENTj thinks the ESFj is just a wannabe who doesn't understand there's greater things than a single person can create. The ESFj thinks s/he can get anything s/he desires, the ENTj will find a use for anything s/he gets. The ESFj is highly individual and personal, the ENTj acts as if s/he was an embodiment of hir environment. The ESFj lacks purpose, the ENTj lacks ability.

    And in this way they are opposites.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    So, how is an ISTp like an ESTj?

    They're both:
    delta
    practical
    dynamic
    taciturn
    aristocrat

    How are they opposites?
    ISTp: Strategic - Creation-creating - Obstinate - Carefree - result - positivist - cold - irrational
    ESTj: Tactical - Emotion-creating - Compliant - Careful - process - negativist - hot - rational

    So these are people who start with a number of thoughts they think are self-evident truths, indisputable, accepted in all of sensible society (Te) and then they diverge for personal reasons, look for how these matters apply to their personal lives. So, they are very private people, low-key, try to not make a fuss over themselves except when it's necessary for trivial reasons. They handle situations case by case, on the situation's own merits from their personal point of view. They are very explicit, clear and this clarity is sometimes misinterpreted as a facade for underlying intentions and sometimes misinterpreted as surfaceality, lack of intelligence. From their point of view they just stick to what is personally important and let frivolous things pass. A very here and now approach, missing on the larger implications of things. Either one of them can take the role of the heckler in the audience, mentioning technical problems though the way they do this is quite different. Both of them look for a solution to personal issues, feel defined by these issues and thus separate from the society. This is a sort of survivor attitude. Workers, peasants with small but definite aspirations (at least in the short term) and hands full of grime(metaphorical but often concrete as well).

    So why is an ISTp not an ESTj?
    Both of them are relatively upright people considering they are concrete-Te (I'd say Te-based which I consider more intuitively correct but other socionists have sort of made this impossible). But each of them has their own way to moderate the amount of stress on them. ISTp just does exactly what s/he feels s/he has to on the basis that s/he knows best what needs to be done and that the issue is so clear there's no reason to discuss it. ESTj on the other hand starts with a very compromise-oriented position. S/he considers true Te to be not something that is absolutely self-evident to hirself but to everyone. So s/he will consider any suggestion, any idea, any information given by anyone. But then begins a process of elimination. A lot of these sources are discarded as unreliable, dysfunctional as if s/he would follow where they point they would lead hir to untenable positions. And those pieces of true Te that s/he finds, s/he follows slavishly to the end. (One thing an ESTj will occasionally do is try to "negotiate" with facts. They'll revert to ENTj activity and suggest an alternate form for a piece of Te on the basis that if they followed the existing version it would lead to the aforementioned positions of impossibilities.) The ISTp, who acts for hir own reasons for hir own goals, proceeds with action without care. The ESTj acts more like a cornered rat or a ship out to sea, proceeding towards an unknown situation for no personal purpose but because there are no real alternatives. All the information s/he trusts pushes hir toward a singular direction but s/he has hirself introduced a possibility of error by discarding certain information. S/he is forced to be cautious while still proceeding with the same course that looks foolhardy to an on-looker.

    Even more to the point, the ESTj is an EJ while the ISTp is an IP. The EJ acts in a free-form way until certain events take place which turn hir into someone who pushes frantically to a certain direction, to correct the situation so that the situation that crossed hir limits is solved and ESTj is someone who is in the process of solving these problems. The IP is someone who acts according to hir knowledge of correct way to act until certain events take place that make hir feel free to do whatever s/he wants, that is until s/he starts to notice the problems that arise from this wanton activity and s/he re-binds hirself to a stricter way of life. The ISTp is someone who has been liberated by certain events and does whatever s/he wants. The ESTj is pushy, intensive, if s/he interrupts the flow of events around hir it is as an act of correction. The ISTp is calm, relaxed, if s/he interrupts the flow of events around hir, it is generally through an act with trivial purpose, for the heck of it.

    And that is how they are opposites.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    So... The ISFp... Hmm The type of which I have the least definite experience and which for exactly that reason interests me atm.

    Alpha
    Social
    Negativist
    Process
    Democrat
    Narrator
    Strategy
    Emotion-creating
    Carefree
    Compliant

    What turns an ISTp into an ISFp? When you spend long enough testing ways to make something work you find the best way and then you become imprisoned by it. Limited by your own tools, unable to deviate. The pattern becomes restrictive. One tries to get it over and done with quickly. One looks for an endpoint, help to break the routine, the tediousness. One can't introduce the element of surprise to one's own life. Simultaneously there's pride of one's abilities, of one's skills to do things easily.

    The IP becomes more open in every possible way as s/he seeks newness and the help of others to create it. On the other hand being uncertain of hirself s/he becomes somewhat more irritated, anxious, animated. The ISFp is defined by the way s/he seeks accord and harmony with almost everyone. (And in this is slightly different from the INFp who believes s/he already has it and has tacit acceptance on everything s/he does and on the other hand on the ISTp who knows s/he's not in accord with others but doesn't care as it's their job to see hir point and not the other way around. The ISFp and INFp compete over the title of the most spineless and most able to change direction on a coin. But this, not really standing for anything, being in many ways invisible to the conflicts around them is both a skill and a gift to the environment. Also, it should be noted that the qualities that create this are the same as create the dealmaking skills of the ExTjs. Though the ISFp is far quicker to seek such deals and the INFp far worse in keeping them, or perhaps this is only what it appears, since the nature of the accord the IP looks for is vague (Fe). It's maybe best seen as the spirit of accord instead of the substance of it.

    So...
    ESTj and ISFp?

    They can be mixed up as both are
    negativist
    process
    Si
    Judicious
    Emotion-creating
    Compliant
    Dynamic

    So in an environment in which there's methodical work to be done over mechanical or otherwise well-defined systems with some kind of control and feedback mechanisms you can find these two slaving away, trying to please others. Just remember that even in these properties the two are not equal as the ESTj is becoming less compliant, less caring of other's opinions the more s/he acts. Hir attitude to the job is "I just do this and then I can go away." The ISFp's attitude is of increasing expectations "If I do this, others will like this!" Because of this phase difference I feel it's difficult to compare types that differ in the aristocracy-democracy dichotomy if they also differ in temperament. Whereas for other relations I happily use partial expressions of "In this they are the same and in this they are the opposite" the differences between these kinds of types have more nuance, are on a different level.

    And of course the one is tactical, grave, EJ, taciturn, Thinking while the other is IP strategic, merry, narrator, Feeling. The real problem is when both of them are extreme Si-subtypes. At that point quadra difference won't help one understand their differences. Neither will T/F difference or anything related to the judging functions. The narrator-taciturn difference, the temperament difference and the creating-tactical-careful vs. the accepting-strategic-carefree differences are what one has to look for then. The temperament is usually the best bet.

    But what is a creating-tactical-careful? The difference is most easily seen on how the person appreciates risk. The ESTj considers that a matter must be done in an exactly certain manner most likely chosen by hirself and executed with precision. The ISTp is far more relaxed, caring more about the results than the way the issue is done, more trusting in hir own ability to get what results s/he wishes, more capable to choose and execute different ways to deal with a situation, guiding things more gently to the direction s/he wishes. The ESTj is extremely high-strung only happy upon resolution. The ISFp is relaxed less affected by the execution and more interested in what the results look like, better at seeing the situation as it relates to hir own actual interests and needs and in this sense more realistic.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    More on the INFp

    So... What do you do when you've gained the favour of everyone? Spend it of course!

    We're talking
    NF
    Beta
    Taciturn
    Aristocrat
    Result
    Emotion-creating
    Compliant
    Tactical
    Careful

    If the peak of the emotion-creation&compliance is the habit of giving people what they want INFp and ESTj are the ones that are the most directly abusing this relation. The habit becomes ritual, a given, and in that manner loses importance. These two groups turn this helping others into a skill, a skill which increases their worth independent of their actual intention of helping anyone. In this way, and in most meanings of the word both of these types are complete tools.

    And more later.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    I disagree with the fundamental premises of the Smilexian socionics - the key to achieving happiness and success in life is to work in agreement with your inborn type - not against it, but it is a work of genius all the same.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    I disagree with the fundamental premises of the Smilexian socionics - the key to achieving happiness and success in life is to work in agreement with your inborn type - not against it, but it is a work of genius all the same.
    Your assertion doesn't contradict my views of socionics. From my pov you're simply making a value judgment of wishing to develop your best qualities instead of wishing to experience a variety of situations and developing all of your capabilities. Your choice seems completely reasonable to me. I only frown on the hiding of this personal choice and framing it as 'inevitability'.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Your assertion doesn't contradict my views of socionics. From my pov you're simply making a value judgment of wishing to develop your best qualities instead of wishing to experience a variety of situations and developing all of your capabilities. Your choice seems completely reasonable to me. I only frown on the hiding of this personal choice and framing it as 'inevitability'.
    Actually...
    I think you are right about an awful lot of things.
    It is just that it seems to me it gets too uncomfortable if you go too far for too long.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Abstract Si
    CALCULATING, JUDICIOUSNESS, TACTICAL & CAREFUL are very high and increasing slowly.
    TACITURN, PROCESS, ARISTOCRACY & NEGATIVISM are high and decreasing.
    COMPLIANCE, GRAVE & EMOTION-CREATING are moderate and decreasing rapidly.

    The EJ is looking for maximal personal benefit. He is looking to pull out of an environment that is turning wearisome and feels no longer worth all the effort. He is starting to feel bored and wants to reach a state of personal freedom. He wants to finish the matter at hand and go away. He feels he’s paid his dues and has earned something better. He is most content when just lazing around but he quickly reacts to outside influence with bursts of energy to make perfectly sure that he’s not further disturbed. Constantly exploring to find a more and more complete situation of personal comfort.

    Expected behaviour:
    Other EJs: Stay put and don’t disturb the situation. Cooperate in maintaining calm when needed.
    IPs: Just stay quiet and relax. Positive comments on the perfection and quality of silence are appreciated.
    IJs: Complex performances and experiments of complete freedom and fulfilled happiness. Active testing and enjoying the quiet and personally fulfilling environment. Wonderment of the EJs ability to provide comfort.
    EPs: Creative suggestions of faults in the perfection of comfort and harmony. Pointing out the final things to be corrected.


    Concrete Si

    CALCULATING, JUDICIOUSNESS, TACTICAL & CAREFUL are very high and decreasing slowly.
    DEMOCRACY, POSITIVISM, NARRATIVE & RESULTS are high and increasing.
    OBSTINACY, CHEERFUL & CONSTRUCT-CREATING are moderate and increasing rapidly.

    Pride of his personal comfort and freedom and willingness to show it around. Wishes to make others enjoy the comfort available so that they would not dare to threaten the comfort. Wishes to convince other of the lack of requirement for things to change. Liable to use strong emotional bursts to make people calm down quickly.

    Expected behaviour:
    Other EJs: Mutual gloating and pumping up on how perfect and wonderful everything is.
    IPs: Taking down anyone who complains and tries to break the status quo.
    IJs: Warning on emerging discomfort. Encouragement for communal effort for further enhancement of comfort and the status quo.
    EPs: Willingness to engage in analysis of the great possibilities and positive qualities of the circumstances. Taking responsibility for defining the state of freedom and independence. Making delightful and stimulating surprises to motivate the group.


    Abstract Fe
    OBSTINACY, CHEERFUL & CONSTRUCT-CREATING are very high and increasing slowly
    DEMOCRACY, POSITIVISM, NARRATIVE & RESULTS are high and decreasing.
    CALCULATING, JUDICIOUSNESS, TACTICAL & CAREFUL are moderate and decreasing rapidly.

    Stubborn in intentions but very adaptive in methods the Fe is actively seeking people who are willing to contribute to the exchange of ideas and sharing of comfort. He draws people together at will and enforces closeness to create a state of maximal group mentality to engage in mutual protection. He is tired of fumbling around and using all kinds of tricks to gain small comforts that never seem to last. He tries to create something greater, a cohesive group that doesn’t require constant fixing to stay together and that shares his motivations.

    Expected behaviour:
    Other EJ:s: Competition over who’s in the limelight. Who gets the most followers wins.
    IPs: Creative spontaneous criticism on any errors made while trying to enhance social cohesiveness. Restraint from hogging the limelight.
    IJs: Helping in seeking a meaning and purpose for the group. Examining the ideological cohesiveness of the group.
    EPs: Providing encouragement, suggesting exciting and important goals to pursue. Suggesting ways to test the cohesiveness of the group.
    Descriptions of the states of the quadras


    PS It is good to have you back.

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