LSE thread

[UDP]

Formerly entitled: Why being an LSE is awesome, I changed this thread because I believe i am the only LSE here, so, I'll offer some insight into the type if I can.

[hr:091335ad46]

Original post:
"Why being an LSE is awesome"
This will be an on going list



- Being a guardian for quality. Pushing yourself and everyone you work with to make a better product, and have things go efficiently and smoothly. Who cares? The LSE cares. Something done so damn good it impresses you and everyone else? Si creative in action.
- This involves, as in my sig - one of my favorite things since coming to school: setting the tone right away, and not being afraid to do it. Initiative is a part of being ESTj, because it seems - honestly - when I do take initiative and set things going right, everything unfolds well, the quality is high, everything goes better. The worst is waiting and constantly having to be on the receiving end - it feels like total stagnation and a waste of my talents
- this is all related to a sense of duty. Doing something just for myself is.... shallow, self centered, not really appealing. But like... the sense of responsibility I get from being Hall President - it allows me to be more benevolent to all the people in my hall. Establish an attitude of care, support, concern, communication, productivity, etc. I want people to tell me what is going on and how they feel, so I realize I have to go out of my way to get to know people. I cannot make tons of friends (close friends, as I see it), but I can know people's names, faces. Doing something for them, to make the community better - that is nice.
- And having that feeling of doing it for someone or something allows making personal sacrifices easier. Of my own self I can do nothing, but for others I can become stronger, more noble, more altruistic -- especially if there is a need. Serving others makes me a better person.
- A unique disposition? It seems a lot like I am the only one really concerned about quality in the same way I am. INFjs are receptive, but my more laid back counterpart. The more I go, the more I see huge areas where I am needed to push for quality and be my natural self - facilitate quality production of things. Make things run as well as the should. Not be lazy, not be counter productive, not settle for low standards of quality, not "just not care about it". And people seem to appreciate whatever it is I bring - like it is some rare talent. While, all the while, I have been wondering -- what is going on, why don't people feel the same way about this that I do? So understanding this, and understanding people need me to be that way - it is an awesome thing.


I haven't even gotten into INFjs much, particularly as my dual... that's coming.

[betterthandead]

yomama

[rockclimber]

he's not yet done with the positive stuff.

[UDP]

that's a lot of positive, tell me your negatives.

Tell me if you read the title of this thread.



edited: Fair enough, I'll get to it in a bit

[UDP]

I would like to address this quote:

Like Thomas Edison, a representative of this type is capable of working 19.5 hours a day.

Why is it like that for the LSE?

• The power of momentum - getting things done. Nothing is more exhilarating than accomplishing a task. I just got done with my first Hall Council meeting, and I was so soaked with energy that I ran the way to, and the entire way back from, the place I picked up my food (I got a wrap, so I carried it back with me). But definitely, the transference of energy from accomplishing a task energizes the LSE, and particularly if the LSE is doing something it is interested in, it derives great energy from it. I believe this is part of "never wanting the PROCESS to end", as in, process>result.
  - Quality / perfection. Doing a damn good job requires time, effort, and energy, and an LSE likes putting time into something to make it work great. It is kind of our fascination I believe. We can be pretty attractive and take care of ourselves well - we can be hotties. But back to the main point, quality and the necessity for it allows the LSE to put in amazing hours.
  - LSEs are not people persons. Not really at least. We like people, but, we're focused on tasks. LSE can be (naturally) benevolent and good natured, but it is not because they want to really be friends with everyone - it is because we want things to go well. It is not always easy to get to know an LSE closely (Fi dual seeking), and for me at least, I much rather talk about job related things than personal things. So in this way, we can see why an LSE is not overtly attached in an "F/ethical" sort of way to people. Business first.
  - Standards and Achievements. Doing a good job is important to an LSE, and they can also get caught up in the rewards associated with such things. Their hidden agenda is Ne, so, in on sense they want "perfection in all forms". For myself, one driving thing is "I want to do everything well", and I always see everything as being able to be improved, to be done better. Sometimes an LSE can want the attention and "glory" of accomplishing something great, although it may or may not be directly admitted. Genuinely, the LSE wants to be the best because it is a matter of quality, and not recognition. But an LSE will be proud of the trophies and awards he worked long and hard for.
  - Honor. This is something extremely important for me - service and contribution to worthy things. In Thomas Edison's case, he was full well aware that he in a position where he was going to be a nations forefather - that is a great inspiration. One LSE I knew in high school did amazing things and was extremely dedicated because he was going to West Point. He was a noble person, in a traditional way - and like I said, not a people person per se, but was friendly and benevolent with people for the sake of making things go well. He was a role model to many students, and in some ways, a model LSE as well. (Not that the model LSE must be in the military, but his take on dedication, service, how he interacted with other people, commitment to quality, commitment to excellence. He is definitely someone I would want to be like.

So all those things lead to why an ESTj can put in huge amounts of time to work. Honestly, aside from close friends and close relationships and family, I don't really enjoy doing much else. There is time for play, physical stuff, outdoors, good healthy stuff, but other than that, I enjoy working a great deal honestly.

It bothers me when I have too much vacation time, or, don't have anything productive to focus on. But, on some weekend days, or sometimes the whole weekend, I do just do fun things. Like College football, online stuff, or outside stuff. But I can only enjoy it if my work is done and everything else is in place, or taken care of. Business first, otherwise there can be no real pleasure.

[UDP]

Resource protecting


I am coming to realize how ESTjs instinctively act in terms of what is productive as per securing their personal safety, and all that which they hold dear. This could be an idea, an ideology, a nation, a family, or one person. But they will always act, in a direct fashion, to provide safety for that thing.

For this they are willing to look bad and face any adversity. This sounds like some ESTp profiles I believe, but the difference is, ESTjs generally make judgments in regard to how much something supports or takes away from what it is they are protecting or valuing. They are very, extremely territorial. They know that if they have no place to stay, or no peace in which to sleep in, then all is lost.

[UDP]

--- why INFjs are so appealing in regard to that last post by me, is, they seem entirely stable. "Finally, someone I don't have to worry about.". That might sound bad or something, but to an ESTj it is such a relief. Someone who is morally consistent, soft, and enjoys protection. Someone who will help educate them towards humanity and progress, help them turn from cynicism to benevolence.

Some people find INFjs "boring", but to me, and probably other ESTjs, they seem exceptionally appealing because they are so consistent. Most of the INFjs I know don't do things that make me question their reliability or ethical intentions, and that alone is so nice. And they can at least appreciate my straightforwardness and realism, while it seems to destroy the will and upset other people who are in Fe quadras. With INFjs I can just call it like I see it and they don't mind. But they also seem to get something that other people don't get, and that is, I say things that way because ultimately I want to protect what I care about and enhance the quality of things.

INFjs help me relating to people because I am so focused on result and resources and tasks that I forget the human element. I am not sociable very much, either, so having someone with a sincere interest in people tempers me more so. I am entirely devoted to ensuring that everything that needs to be in place for growth and success is in place, and the faults show when I neglect the importance of positive social interaction with other people.

You might say, ESTjs are Si creative, so most of the ones I know are pretty nice guys. Yes, this is true. But it is more in a physical "what can I do for you way". I have no trouble 'doing things' for someone or anyone in legitimate need. But really emotionally connecting is difficult and generally uncomfortable. Social lubrication is also something I am wary of, and generally resist Fe when I can. But at the same time, it seems few people understand my subtleness - that I really do care, despite my lack of huge emotional displays to this effect. (Serious > Merry to the max)


Note also that am an extremely heavy logical subtype ESTj. It is possible that other ESTjs, especially Si subtypes, handle social things in a different way.

[UDP]

I am curious as to what EIIs think about these things.

[guest32456]

Hi Courage (and what a name that is ),

Thanks very much for this thread. You've put time and thought into it, which is always nice to see.

It has also confirmed in me a sense that I am probably not ESTj (although you did say that you were very much a Te-ESTj, so I might be an Si-ESTj). For example, you mentioned that you sometimes "forget the human element", whereas a good friend of mine recently remarked that I was empathic.

In a way, you value the same things as I do (e.g. humility, nobility) but you seem to have a different, more logical, more energetic and pro-active slant on it.

Good luck with your Hall Presidency and all your endeavours in life

[UDP]

Hi Courage (and what a name that is ),

Thanks very much for this thread. You've put time and thought into it, which is always nice to see.

It has also confirmed in me a sense that I am probably not ESTj (although you did say that you were very much a Te-ESTj, so I might be an Si-ESTj). For example, you mentioned that you sometimes "forget the human element", whereas a good friend of mine recently remarked that I was empathic.

In a way, you value the same things as I do (e.g. humility, nobility) but you seem to have a different, more logical, more energetic and pro-active slant on it.

Good luck with your Hall Presidency and all your endeavours in life

Thank you.


You do seem to be much more personable than I am. But perhaps I should caution that my state of affairs may just be unique for me. I remember a time when I was generally more polite and such, so this may just be a growing phase. ESTjs can be very caring and "motherly" towards people, I just suppose I am less that way openly. ESTjs seem unusual, as do the delta STs in general, as they are caregivers, but at the same time, they are "ST", and not ethically orientated (although many can follow ethical doctrines easily).

[guest32456]

Hi,

But perhaps I should caution that my state of affairs may just be unique for me.

Thanks for pointing this out. Nevertheless, I think that a thread like this is a good way to step into an ESTj's shoes.

Mmm ... perhaps we should have similar threads for all 16 types :wink:

(PS - Thank you for your kind words.)

[Logos]

You know, the real interesting thing is just comparing UDP/Courage's past threads that existed to reassure and exalt his LIIness, and now he fills the Delta Quadra sub-forum with threads that seem to exist to reassure and exalt his LSEness. Oh, how the times change.

[Creepy-bg]

You know, the real interesting thing is just comparing UDP/Courage's past threads that existed to reassure and exalt his LIIness, and now he fills the Delta Quadra sub-forum with threads that seem to exist to reassure and exalt his LSEness. Oh, how the times change.

he's serious now though... playtime is over!


[spoil:b0eabc8d6e] [/spoil:b0eabc8d6e]

[Not A Communist Shill]

You know, the real interesting thing is just comparing UDP/Courage's past threads that existed to reassure and exalt his LIIness, and now he fills the Delta Quadra sub-forum with threads that seem to exist to reassure and exalt his LSEness. Oh, how the times change.

he's serious now though... playtime is over!


[spoil:8fd0bce59a] [/spoil:8fd0bce59a]

Why can't you accept that Cowrage has been an ESTj all along?

[Creepy-bg]

oh I can accept it... he's whatever type he thinks he is. It's just his new 'personality' is too funny not to poke fun at

[UDP]

You know, the real interesting thing is just comparing UDP/Courage's past threads that existed to reassure and exalt his LIIness, and now he fills the Delta Quadra sub-forum with threads that seem to exist to reassure and exalt his LSEness. Oh, how the times change.

Is it that hard to understand?

If I am wrong, then I will change it, just as I did before. What do you have against consistently testing yourself with reality, to see if it lines up with theory?


I'm not doing this for you, Logos, or you, bionicgoat, or you subterranean - I'm not doing this to convince anyone. I'm doing it for me, and for other people if they want to learn about socionics. There are not many LSEs on this forum with which to compare myself, so if you have comments about LSEs go ahead and share them - that is the point of this thread.

[Creepy-bg]

I'm not doing this for you, Logos, or you, bionicgoat, or you subterranian. I'm doing it for me.

whoa man... nobody's accusing you of changing your type for reasons that aren't your own. I don't think you give a rats ass what we think and that's cool.

[guest32456]

For example, you mentioned that you sometimes "forget the human element", whereas a good friend of mine recently remarked that I was empathic.

Having re-read this, I can understand why it might be misconstrued.

To clarify, I was not saying that LSEs cannot be empathic. I was simply trying to draw a distinction between me and Courage in the logic/business vs feeling/people area.

Hope that clears things up

[UDP]

Acknowledged.

[betterthandead]

yomama

[Jarno]

• The power of momentum - getting things done. Nothing is more exhilarating than accomplishing a task. I just got done with my first Hall Council meeting, and I was so soaked with energy that I ran the way to, and the entire way back from, the place I picked up my food (I got a wrap, so I carried it back with me). But definitely, the transference of energy from accomplishing a task energizes the LSE, and particularly if the LSE is doing something it is interested in, it derives great energy from it. I believe this is part of "never wanting the PROCESS to end", as in, process>result.
  - Quality / perfection. Doing a damn good job requires time, effort, and energy, and an LSE likes putting time into something to make it work great. It is kind of our fascination I believe. We can be pretty attractive and take care of ourselves well - we can be hotties. But back to the main point, quality and the necessity for it allows the LSE to put in amazing hours.
  - LSEs are not people persons. Not really at least. We like people, but, we're focused on tasks. LSE can be (naturally) benevolent and good natured, but it is not because they want to really be friends with everyone - it is because we want things to go well. It is not always easy to get to know an LSE closely (Fi dual seeking), and for me at least, I much rather talk about job related things than personal things. So in this way, we can see why an LSE is not overtly attached in an "F/ethical" sort of way to people. Business first.
  - Standards and Achievements. Doing a good job is important to an LSE, and they can also get caught up in the rewards associated with such things. Their hidden agenda is Ne, so, in on sense they want "perfection in all forms". For myself, one driving thing is "I want to do everything well", and I always see everything as being able to be improved, to be done better. Sometimes an LSE can want the attention and "glory" of accomplishing something great, although it may or may not be directly admitted. Genuinely, the LSE wants to be the best because it is a matter of quality, and not recognition. But an LSE will be proud of the trophies and awards he worked long and hard for.
  - Honor. This is something extremely important for me - service and contribution to worthy things. In Thomas Edison's case, he was full well aware that he in a position where he was going to be a nations forefather - that is a great inspiration. One LSE I knew in high school did amazing things and was extremely dedicated because he was going to West Point. He was a noble person, in a traditional way - and like I said, not a people person per se, but was friendly and benevolent with people for the sake of making things go well. He was a role model to many students, and in some ways, a model LSE as well. (Not that the model LSE must be in the military, but his take on dedication, service, how he interacted with other people, commitment to quality, commitment to excellence. He is definitely someone I would want to be like.

Go to the army

[UDP]

Go to the army

You don't know me well enough, otherwise you would not make that suggestion.


I will directly quote Bono in this performance:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9c4lLnY0rA[/youtube]

"And let me tell you something, I've had enough of Irish Americans who haven't been back to their country in 20 years and talk about the resistance, the revolution back home. And the glory of the revolution, and the glory of dieing for the revolution. FUCK the revolution. They don't talk about the glory of killing for the revolution. What's the glory in taking a man from his bed and gunning him down in front of his wife and his children. Where's the glory in that?

I find no honor or glory in killing.
"Victory should be observed as if it were a funeral", as opposed to some celebration.


[hr:bc69ff540d][hr:bc69ff540d]

Courage is very typical of some ESTJs I know. They make errors, huge errors and then they talk to others and themselves out to make themselves appear better as to set their own judgmental standards.

It's okay to not be perfect ESTJ.

That is a negative aspect of it, yes. But I do earnestly seek improvement - I always have and I always will. A lot of it is how it is done - you can seek it while using it as leverage to make yourself feel better than other people, but that isn't completely sincere, because you are doing it only for yourself - it is ego. But you can strive for self improvement and self mastery. The problem is when you are more critical of other people than of yourself. This seems to easily be explained in enneagram type 1 descriptions....

[spoil:bc69ff540d][web:bc69ff540d]http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/1growth.asp[/web:bc69ff540d][/spoil:bc69ff540d]
(and the more stress a 1 is under, the easier it is to let its anger escape)


Also, I am not sure how to say this, but it seems like because the focus is on such core aspects and life, it is like working with atoms. There is so much energy concentrated, it seems easy to make a mistake and blow everything up. But for whatever reason that does not stop us from trying.



PS: I suppose it makes a lot of sense, thinking about it now, that Spock is a type 1. Logic seems to be the best way to deal with such high internal energy, judgment, and emotions.
PPS: It is something difficult I am learning how to deal with. It seems there may be a need for healthy expression, but at the same time, keeping them under wraps seems to do better than trying to just be regularly emotional. I am not sure which direction to go in at this time, though right now I am leaning towards trying to keep them under wraps again. "To Logic"... as I once wrote in another thread in GD.

[Ezra]

I would like to address this quote:

Like Thomas Edison, a representative of this type is capable of working 19.5 hours a day.

Why is it like that for the LSE?

Actually, Edison is an LIE - check out the wiki entry.

[Ezra]

There's no reason why UDP shouldn't be an LSE. What he did was provide this forum with a huge logical analysis as to why he's an LSE, and why he's not an LII. He clearly gave a lot of thought to it. And one change? What's wrong with that?