Attention Entp's/ILE's!!

[Blaze]

On consideration of Si-dual seeking and Se role.

How do we typically experiences these elements of information or lack thereof?

Socionics says that entp's cannot create a comfortable environment for themselves....do we really see this?

Socionics says that with a role function of Se, entp's cannot organize their households well or manage money. Again, do we really see this?

Looking for comments on how these elements are actually experienced.

[Jimbean]

If I am an ENTp, then I don't think that these are problems at all.

[Blaze]

i'll go first:

on Si:

i don't relate to the inability to manage my own physical needs. on the contrary, i cook well and it is something i enjoy doing for myself and others. i also like to decorate and enjoy fashion quite a bit. i don't feel like i need someone else for this at all.

i do relate to the idea that when i become irritible i'm impossible to get along with and that the irritibility tends to be driven by weak Fi related experiences. but usually if someone just comments that i seem to be very tense, then i can gather my inner resources and behave.

generally it's harder to me to manage stress and i get anxious easily.

more on Se later.

[detail]

Socionics says that entp's cannot create a comfortable environment for themselves....do we really see this?

It's more like: "ENTps can create a comfortable environment for themselves but they can easily fail at doing so in different areas of their lives."

Socionics says that with a role function of Se, entp's cannot organize their households well or manage money. Again, do we really see this?

"ENTps easily dismiss the importance of organizing their households well or manage money, or fail at maintaining it."

In both cases, the actual long term implementation is more of an acquired behaviour than an innate one despite the clear natural preference of some ENTps towards one or both of these traits. Valueing and doing is not the same thing and some ENTps are not aware of this, thus identifying more with their values and ideas than their actions. The bottom line is that there must be some kind of realization on the part of the ENTp for the two quotes above to not apply.

[Blaze]

i do see value in those things. enough value to do them. and to have done them for the last 17 years at least.

[detail]

i do see value in those things. enough value to do them. and to have done them for the last 17 years at least.

So you are an example of what i was saying. I'm in the transition part between the valuing and the consistency in doing it. In your case has it happened as an integration of the positive consequences of taking care of the aforementioned things by the same enthusiasm that also serves ENTps to integrate new ideas, concept, sciences, subjects, etc? I'm asking because i managed to get a similar "positive" feeling by getting my shit together than i had when i discovered phisolophy, logic and that kind of / stuff. As if by now a list of "cool stuff" would look like: "Genetics, electricity, math, getting my shit together, sports, art" instead of "Genetics, electricity, math, sports, art".

[Suomea]

[quote="diamond8"]On consideration of Si-dual seeking and Se role.

How do we typically experiences these elements of information or lack thereof?

Socionics says that entp's cannot create a comfortable environment for themselves....do we really see this?

I can't really maintain a comfortable environment for myself. I can create it but my mind will wander to other things and I'll need others to continue to maintain a lot of the "normal" aspects of life.

Socionics says that with a role function of Se, entp's cannot organize their households well or manage money. Again, do we really see this?

I manage my money by keeping it away from myself as much as possible. I try to make myself poor. Invest and avoid. As for paying bills I simplify as much as possible. I have no idea how I haven't been late on any of my payments. It's a little ridiculous but I always manage to pay them somehow on the last day. My apartment is always a mess if I live alone and always pretty clean if I don't just because I make sure to clean up after myself in common areas. My room is always kinda messy though.

Looking for comments on how these elements are actually experienced.

[Blaze]

i do see value in those things. enough value to do them. and to have done them for the last 17 years at least.

So you are an example of what i was saying. I'm in the transition part between the valuing and the consistency in doing it. In your case has it happened as an integration of the positive consequences of taking care of the aforementioned things by the same enthusiasm that also serves ENTps to integrate new ideas, concept, sciences, subjects, etc? I'm asking because i managed to get a similar "positive" feeling by getting my shit together than i had when i discovered phisolophy, logic and that kind of / stuff. As if by now a list of "cool stuff" would look like: "Genetics, electricity, math, getting my shit together, sports, art" instead of "Genetics, electricity, math, sports, art".

but socionics says we don't value these things. you are saying that we learn to value them via Ne and Ti? (esp Se i guess, since it's in the superego block).

if we learn to value and to do the things that we start out not valuing and doing, then what are the implications for duality?

[Blaze]

but socionics says we don't value these things. you are saying that we learn to value them via Ne and Ti? (esp Se i guess, since it's in the superego block).

if we learn to value and to do the things that we start out not valuing and doing, then what are the implications for duality?

I value Se/Fi but I'm conscious of my weakness in them is perhaps the implication in duality. We want to have control of but we are not really good at them unlike . We don't want someone interfering with this. Duality, our duals do not want control in but are strong in them, they also are strong in our Dual-Seeking functions which is a area we want to relinquish control in.

Our conflictors are strong in the functions that we want to being control of but are weak in. So anything they do seems to be oppressive and intrusive.

so in a way the superego functions are valued. otherwise we wouldn't want to be in control of them.

or are we just wishing the negative consequences of not being in control of them could be avoided?

[Blaze]

on it. so it's not really valued/unvalued, but valued more valued less.

socionics still paints a picture where certain elements are drastically weaker than others.

has anybody read that stratiyevskaya entp description recently? she's fucking scathing...

[Blaze]

on it. so it's not really valued/unvalued, but valued more valued less.

socionics still paints a picture where certain elements are drastically weaker than others.

has anybody read that stratiyevskaya entp description recently? she's fucking scathing...

I think that different people have different inbalances. I think I'm weaker in and then the average ENTp by a big margin.

What's scathing stratiyevskaya entp description?

huh. my Fi is pretty weak but my Se isn't so much.

the scathing stratiyevskaya description is somewhere here, just search it, i would but i don't have a ton of time right now.

i think she's an isfj which would explain a lot.

[Blaze]

on it. so it's not really valued/unvalued, but valued more valued less.

socionics still paints a picture where certain elements are drastically weaker than others.

has anybody read that stratiyevskaya entp description recently? she's fucking scathing...

I think that different people have different inbalances. I think I'm weaker in and then the average ENTp by a big margin.

What's scathing stratiyevskaya entp description?

huh. my Fi is pretty weak but my Se isn't so much.

the scathing stratiyevskaya description is somewhere here, just search it, i would but i don't have a ton of time right now.

i think she's an isfj which would explain a lot.

I think it's pretty accurate in a way... at least for me.

really? i guess i don't see you that way at least here. and, i don't think i expect others to do things that i wouldn't do myself (from Fi section).

and i'm nowhere near as lame at Si/Se as she writes.

[Expat]

diamond8, perhaps you should look at the ESTp option for you again.

[tcaudilllg]

Hmm... well from what I can infer from Einstein's relativity papers, role is at least somewhat believed relevant to ENTp perceptions of space.

Consider, a planet plays a role in the distortion of space, by creating gravity. Think of it as, "you are the mover of society, or the group, etc."

As for the relationship between and (of which I presume you are well aware at this point in your life... am I correct?), every force is on behalf of something that is being sought. Force moves stimulie to stimulus, and the stimulie can theoretically move the stimulus into itself by means of force. So all force is owed to the movement of stimulie to stimulus, otherwise one has no need for it. (needs are everyone's primary motives; that's HA talking, BTW)

Just for the record, it seems to me that the General of Relativity should be easy for ENTps to tackle after 40/midlife crisis period. Einstein himself struggled with the theory until that time.

[Blaze]

Hmm... well from what I can infer from Einstein's relativity papers, role is at least somewhat believed relevant to ENTp perceptions of space.

Consider, a planet plays a role in the distortion of space, by creating gravity. Think of it as, "you are the mover of society, or the group, etc."

As for the relationship between and (of which I presume you are well aware at this point in your life... am I correct?), every force is on behalf of something that is being sought. Force moves stimulie to stimulus, and the stimulie can theoretically move the stimulus into itself by means of force. So all force is owed to the movement of stimulie to stimulus, otherwise one has no need for it. (needs are everyone's primary motives; that's HA talking, BTW)

Just for the record, it seems to me that the General of Relativity should be easy for ENTps to tackle after 40/midlife crisis period. Einstein himself struggled with the theory until that time.

tcaud i don't get this at all. can you explain in plain english?

[implied]

diamond8, perhaps you should look at the ESTp option for you again.

thinking the same. i don't think it's completely insane that an ENTp would be good at , but generally the ones i have met sound more like what stratievskaya describes.

[Blaze]

Se/role function section of Stratiyevskaya: Bold I agree with. Italics I disagree with. Neutral is left alone.

Block Of superego*e-ya position * normative function * "volitional sensorika"
For Don Quixote is characteristic the tendency to defend and to protect its right to live in the manner that it wants it. It constantly and everywhere requires the acknowledgement of its rights to the free intellectual creation out of any limitations. As is free its thought and fantasy, so it must be free and it. It is free from any conditionalities, responsibilities, obligations, claims - from in all, which interfere withs its intellectual creation.

Serious ethical and lawful problems appear in light of such installations in Don Quixote. It understands everyone from its environment, that while Don Quixote by entire days lies on the sofa and looks into the ceiling, in his head ripen the great ideas, capable to please all of mankind.

At the same time Don Quixote not can and it does not consider it necessary to be distracted from the reflection above its projects in order to recall, did wash out it after itself dishes, as that categorically require those surrounding. Any requirement of those surrounding irritates it, since it distracts from the brilliant, exceptional and unique ideas to some everyday trifles. of course the pettier the requirement and claim, the more they it irritate.

Don Quixote fights for the right to free himself from these stimuli, to fence himself from them, since not at all desires to encounter with any interferences on its creative way. For example, its projects must start in that form, in which it them presents, moreover it is indisputable and it is unconditional. No routine work, connected with their description and development, cannot be required from it, since this impedes its creative thought and wastes its precious time. (somewhat relate to this; routine work is not my favorite kind by any stretch.)

In Don Quixote frequently appears the contradiction between the steep demands, presented to them to those surrounding, and by the understated requirements, presented to them to itself. For example, evaluating strange work, it will not suffer even the least logical errors and inaccuracies, while in its work it can consider as that permitted any logical error, asserting that it does not influence substantially the essence of its theory. (exception: if someone asks for feedback on their work, then i'll offer it.)

The same occurs also in the region of rights and responsibilities: it will categorically insist on its rights, allowing for itself not the least mortars. And with the same obstinacy it will try to fence itself from any obligations. (i don't mind taking on obligations as long as i realistically have time for them.)

With the fulfillment obeshchannogo in Don Quixote appear the constant problems: when it gives promise, he thinks only about the fact that it, it goes without saying, can this make, i.e., this in its forces, but he in no way thinks about the fact that it will make this. Therefore any requirement to carry out Don Quixote obeshchannoye simply angers: really someone in earnest can calculate, that it will be distracted from its most interesting matters to some trifles, which not at all personally interest it. (i'm careful with any promises i make...because i want to be able to fulfill them.)

Attempt to impose on Don Quixote some stable responsibilities will perceived by it exceptionally hostilely. ("don't effing tell me what to do!!!") It is perceived, as someone's fraudulent intent: this it means, its internal desire to be free in its matters, thoughts and plans does not give to someone rest. This it means, someone it wants "hide", someone on it wants "water to convey". Question: who? Who it, this criminal? "criminal" very rapidly is located and to him declares war "to the victorious end". In the number of "criminals" can fall any person from his nearest environment. This can be his close relative, husband, friend, chief - anybody. Uselessly to convince Don Quixote, what these requirements are presented in his interests and for his conveniences - perhaps can someone better it very to know its interests?!

Don Quixote, sosredotachivayushchiy all its forces and thoughts in war with the "wind mills", this always tragedy, this always sad and unpleasant phenomenon. (this part historically true...i've learned not to "fight windmills" ) The inexhaustible, richest fantasy, by the kropotliveyshim means the assembled "facts", the lustrously constructed intrigue - all this is directed to that in order "to bring under the monastery" the former chief, to bring to the infarction the former mother-in-law, to deprive zhilploshchadi been to husband...

Where the brilliant projects, which once did ripen in its head? Now humanity will not soon be them oschastlivleno...

A feeling of debt (need, responsibility) brings up in Don Quixote through the logical understanding to enter one way or another and through the observation and the logical analysis of the consequences of its behavior. (although to it sometimes difficult to be concentrated in such observations.)

From other side, it is difficult to itself to represent Don Quixote, constantly concentrated on not reaching to those surrounding of any inconveniences and constantly distracting to that in order to verify, he did not forget to wash dishes after itself and did not leave with that switch oned light in the toilet - such Don Quixote in the course of time begins to note that the brilliant ideas attend increasingly his thinner and it is thinner. Moreover, it notes that already not at all one cannot be concentrated on the intellectual creation so that not to think about its surrounding everyday trifles. This "zakonfliktovannyy" Don Quixote is already other, although less problematic, also not always attractive extreme. (i can't understand this paragraph)

Problems are solved when in Don Quixote appears partner, delicately and nenavyazchivo who distributes his rights and responsibilities. Knowing how to smooth out his conflicts with those surrounding, that knows how to express its requirements in such form, which to Don Quixote seems convincing, legitimate and easy. Specifically, such partner for Don Quixote is his dual (his ideally supplementing partner) - sensory- ethical intravert, designated in sotsionike "Aleksandr dyum's pseudonym".

In sensory- ethical introverta ("the Dumases") the aspect of volitional sensoriki is located on the positions of observant function. Dumas very thinly and sensitively subconsiously observes, as partner receives the requirements presented to it, what responsibilities he with the readiness beret for himself and what performs. The Dumases it is very tactful, in the special soft and delicate manner characteristic of it this aspect is regulated, simultaneously and being adapted to the demands of partner, and training him to consider the possibilities of those surrounding.

i definitely respond better to tactful, delicate people; however, doesn't have to be isfp.

[Strutopolis]

Hello. The topic "Attention Entp's/ILE's!!" made me setup this profile, beacuse I always test ENTP!

I think the Si-thing about keeping order on money and valuing comfort is really true. I can usally make up systems and budgets for different priorities, which makes it work normally, even though I can be quite impulsive within this span. That differs me from a lot of people I know; their economic and more sensory prioritizations seem to come more naturally and be a part of their everyday lifes, without thinking, wheras I need a sort of de-attached system to make it work.

But thats my life!!

[Ms. Kensington]

funny sig

lol

I could see an ENTp being able to create schedules on the fly, not putting much attention into it but not being too shabby.

[Blaze]

The italicized sections seems pretty consistent with ILE behavior. It is possible you're SLE, wouldn't that be a good thing. :wink:

yeah. cept i don't think i have first function Se. i'm just not that powerful; i relate more to Ne. then again, what great idea have i come up with lately? hahaha it's kinda like i let go of valuing Ne or something...nobody wants to hear about crazy ideas...it's hardly ever useful. and my Fi is entp Fi not estp Fi.

[Blaze]

Hello. The topic "Attention Entp's/ILE's!!" made me setup this profile, beacuse I always test ENTP!

I think the Si-thing about keeping order on money and valuing comfort is really true. I can usally make up systems and budgets for different priorities, which makes it work normally, even though I can be quite impulsive within this span. That differs me from a lot of people I know; their economic and more sensory prioritizations seem to come more naturally and be a part of their everyday lifes, without thinking, wheras I need a sort of de-attached system to make it work.

But thats my life!!

welcome to the forum strutopolis...are you from greece? hahaha

anyhow, do you follow your money system once it's established or drop it?

i usually follow it. once it's a system.

but comfort stuff, i do this routinely. do you do stuff to make yourself and others comfortable?

[Blaze]

The italicized sections seems pretty consistent with ILE behavior. It is possible you're SLE, wouldn't that be a good thing. :wink:

yeah. cept i don't think i have first function Se. i'm just not that powerful; i relate more to Ne. then again, what great idea have i come up with lately? hahaha it's kinda like i let go of valuing Ne or something...nobody wants to hear about crazy ideas...it's hardly ever useful. and my Fi is entp Fi not estp Fi.

I don't really know.. ILE seems to fit me pretty well.. but I always wonder if I might be another type because I have incorrect knowledge of myself.
Maybe I don't have PoLR and have something else.. I might be really stupid and illogical or something.

not likely...you seem pretty logical to me. in an entp extraverted open kinda way lol.

soooo no i don't think i'm an estp even though it would be nicer to be one than entp (their problems don't seem that bad to me, go figure). but i do think this role function issue, that of one's role function improving over time is worth thinking about. since the only other explanation for a stronger Se would be istj or isfj, which *shudder* i definitely am not. lol.

[Strutopolis]

welcome to the forum strutopolis...are you from greece? hahaha

haha, no Im in Denmark, mixed European guy. I just thought it sounded funny, and a small tribute to the book "Persopolis".

anyhow, do you follow your money system once it's established or drop it?

I usually keep it quite good, at least the last few years.

but comfort stuff, i do this routinely. do you do stuff to make yourself and others comfortable?

I dont know what you mean by "comfort", but most of my everyday stuff is done in a hurry, and when Im inviting someone for dinner, its often very improvised. When I friends at home, I always start noticing that I should get more cottery, glasses, plates etc. Same thing with the furniture. But I never actually fully complete those more household/comfort things, because... Im not interested in it probably.

but thats my life!!