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Thread: Robert McNamara

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    Default Robert McNamara





    Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara

    I found that the way he relayed information was very similar to my ENTj-Ni uncle. I'm not usually comfortable VI'ing from video but in this case I was extremely confident in my conclusion. What do you think?

    Awesome documentary btw, definitely worth checking out.

    Last edited by silke; 07-02-2014 at 08:25 AM. Reason: updated links
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    I saw it in a theatre in London when it came out. Really a very good documentary. A good contrast for those who call what Michael Moore does "documentaries".

    I think ENTj is very plausible from the way he comes across. Also, he's been described in terms that could mean that he disliked Fe atmospheres. The main problem I have with ENTj is that he made his fame and career, before becoming the CEO of Ford and JFK's Secretary of Defense, essentially as a data analyst, which is not necessarily how ENTjs would do it.

    On the other hand, it is said that one of his favorite put-downs was, "you're suffering from an insuficient data base", which sounds more ENTj.

    For a time I thought ISTj was more likely, but maybe ENTj it is.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For a time I thought ISTj was more likely, but maybe ENTj it is.
    That has always been my doubt about him as well. Hard to decide imho.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    For a time I thought ISTj was more likely, but maybe ENTj it is.
    That has always been my doubt about him as well. Hard to decide imho.
    I found that the way he described other leaders, working alongside him in WW2, helped put his type in perspective. I forget the names but he was talking about one general that was so pissed off with pilots bailing on bombing missions that he made sure to be on the first plane in enemy territory on each trip. This guy seemed ESTp-ish. Then he also talked about another general, (Lemay? I think) whom hardly ever spoke in meetings and such but was non-the-less reknowned for his tough view of things, and the few times he did speak everyone listened, which seemed kind of ISTj-ish. Both these guys seemed Se dominant, and McNamara seemed to imply that he respected them but also that he was different.

    also McNamara seemed to hold purposeful activity in high regard, in terms of increasing efficiency in whatever department he was in. In other words he made things more efficient by collecting and analyzing all the available data and then using his knowledge to implement changes that would bring positive results in the long-run (I suppose I'm thinking of how he described his work at Ford here, but he seems to value Te and Ni)
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    I think those are very good points.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    "you're suffering from an insuficient data base"


    He could be either. He reports stories with the height of detail. But some of the questions he asks like how to stop a war with Cuba seem more as if he has an awareness that comes with the LIE. He also seems to prefer strategy over tactics. Some of his anecdotes seem Ni-related. There was also the thing about him putting himself in others shoes to see what is in their minds. To what function is that skill related?

    Oh yeah, what the fuck was that bomb that went off after about 10 minutes through? Was it a nuke or a Big Bertha bomb or something?

    Off-topic, Philip Glass is a great composer. I like the way his music isn't pretentiously dramatic, but is dramatic nonetheless. I also like the way it's repetitive, because it's a good sound, and it's hypnotic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    There was also the thing about him putting himself in others shoes to see what is in their minds. To what function is that skill related?
    essentially.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    There was also the thing about him putting himself in others shoes to see what is in their minds. To what function is that skill related?
    essentially.
    I think it's
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I don't think ENTps are concerned with that, not in that context.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I don't think ENTps are concerned with that, not in that context.
    Neither are particularly ISFj, I think? So perhaps it's just Ne Fi.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    There was also the thing about him putting himself in others shoes to see what is in their minds. To what function is that skill related?
    essentially.
    I'd just like to add that it's important to remember his age when interpreting his use of functions. As he's older I found that I could tell he was psychologically healthy and that he thus had developed functions like Fi over time. For example, when he was talking about putting himself in other people's shoes he first mentioned how he had failed to do that with the Vietnamese (when he was younger) and that he regretted that. I thought this was a good example, socionically, of how people develop their less used and appreciated functions as they mature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    There was also the thing about him putting himself in others shoes to see what is in their minds. To what function is that skill related?
    :Fi: essentially.
    I think it's :Ne:
    Agree....
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    Switching perspective is Ne. Using Ne to understand a viewpoint in order to empathize could be Ne Ti; using it to feel empathy in order to understand is Ne Fi. Not saying one Ji cant do the "function" of the other; just saying NeJi will apply switching perspective to different ends..

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    I've re-watched The Fog of War on DVD recently.

    McNamara was clearly LIE in my opinion.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    I'd just like to add that it's important to remember his age when interpreting his use of functions. As he's older I found that I could tell he was psychologically healthy and that he thus had developed functions like Fi over time.
    Ahhh, you're talking MBTI and developing tertiary and inferior functions. You don't "develop" functions in socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suomea View Post
    Agree....
    Why? How is putting yourself in others' shoes Ne?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Ahhh, you're talking MBTI and developing tertiary and inferior functions. You don't "develop" functions in socionics.
    No I wasn't thinking about MBTI. I suppose I used the wrong word, I meant IM elements - I don't mean that people develop socionic functions in a "all your IM elements/functions can be ego functions and make you an uber-mann way" but rather in a very slow and gradual way. So your weak functions are less weak but still, relatively, your weak functions. In other words Model A remains intact and well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    but rather in a very slow and gradual way. So your weak functions are less weak but still, relatively, your weak functions. In other words Model A remains intact and well.
    This is more or less how I see it. I think my is more "developed" than, say, 20 years ago but it's still the function that makes me seek help from others most often.

    Which is the problem I have with the version of socionics that at least some people in socioniX seem to propose, that is, that you could still be an ESTj even if having stronger than . Well, in that case you'd be more likely to offer help in than in , and more likely to seek help in than in . No matter how good you are in both, that would already prevent you from being an ESTj in Augustan socionics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    This is more or less how I see it. I think my is more "developed" than, say, 20 years ago but it's still the function that makes me seek help from others most often.

    Which is the problem I have with the version of socionics that at least some people in socioniX seem to propose, that is, that you could still be an ESTj even if having stronger than . Well, in that case you'd be more likely to offer help in than in , and more likely to seek help in than in . No matter how good you are in both, that would already prevent you from being an ESTj in Augustan socionics.
    I agree, I think that it's newcomers to socionics that are most likely to fall victim to the socioniX approach... people over there seem to take the role of 'visionary' upon themselves and change around the rules of socionics before they themselves have been able to comprehend what the actual rules are and what they allow.

    Btw, would you agree that McNamara seems LIE-Ni subtype vs. Te-subtype? I find that the Ni-subtype is more nostalgic, in that when they explain things to others they're more willing/comfortable? to go back in time and explain what they were thinking at that moment, and then when they're done they come back to the present and give their present opinion on their past actions. When they do this they clearly identify which decisions were made correctly according to the information available at the time, and sometimes what they would have done differently if they knew what they know now (I know this paragraph stinks with haha). I noticed McNamara does this in that movie and my uncle, who I've typed the same, also does this when explaining things that are important to him, which he would like me to understand.

    I recently watched a very interesting mini-series, called "Race to Mars", which originally aired on the Discovery Channel a few months ago. I don't know if you got it in Europe, but if you get a chance to see it I think the leader of the mission was a good example of a healthy LIE-Te. He reminded me of my LIE friend and after I watched it I couldn't help but tell my friend that he should sign up to become an astronaut haha. It was an educational, but fictional, series about how the first human venture to Mars (in 20 years) might present itself and the problems it would most likely face (after liftoff) and have to overcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    I agree, I think that it's newcomers to socionics that are most likely to fall victim to the socioniX approach... people over there seem to take the role of 'visionary' upon themselves and change around the rules of socionics before they themselves have been able to comprehend what the actual rules are and what they allow.
    Bingo. Which would be fine if they didn't claim to be using socionics rather than -- something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    Btw, would you agree that McNamara seems LIE-Ni subtype vs. Te-subtype? I find that the Ni-subtype is more nostalgic, in that when they explain things to others they're more willing/comfortable? to go back in time and explain what they were thinking at that moment, and then when they're done they come back to the present and give their present opinion on their past actions. When they do this they clearly identify which decisions were made correctly according to the information available at the time, and sometimes what they would have done differently if they knew what they know now (I know this paragraph stinks with haha). I noticed McNamara does this in that movie and my uncle, who I've typed the same, also does this when explaining things that are important to him, which he would like me to understand.
    I'm not thinking much about subtypes these days, but to the extent that I do, I think he'd be more like Ni subtype, I agree.

    I agree with your analysis of one of the ways Ni is used by LIEs.


    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    I recently watched a very interesting mini-series, called "Race to Mars", which originally aired on the Discovery Channel a few months ago. I don't know if you got it in Europe, but if you get a chance to see it I think the leader of the mission was a good example of a healthy LIE-Te. He reminded me of my LIE friend and after I watched it I couldn't help but tell my friend that he should sign up to become an astronaut haha. It was an educational, but fictional, series about how the first human venture to Mars (in 20 years) might present itself and the problems it would most likely face (after liftoff) and have to overcome.
    I haven't watched it, sorry.
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    Default Robert McNamara and me

    The whole of the excellent documentary The Fog of War is now - for the moment - on YouTube.

    Not only is he a good example of LIE, I've also been told that I behave, talk and move as sort of clone of his.

    For images of him as relatively young, the beginning and a longish bit starting at 4:50.

    I don't like to type by benchmarking, but that's one case where I'm sure I'm the same type as he. So, if anyone types him as someone else than LIE, that would mean (to me) that we have different understandings of LIEs.

    ETA: also, perhaps those who met me can comment on the resemblance.

    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    No offense meant towards Expat, but in my opinion he's just too much of an admirer of 'powerful' and 'important' people. No role model for me, just another imperfect human being, just like the rest of us.
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    Since when do I have to "admire" someone to use them as reference points in socionics?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Since when do I have to "admire" someone to use them as reference points in socionics?
    You don't, but often there is an emphasis on 'powerful', 'important' people when it is about famous people (and the initiative in the thread is yours). Very similar to my admiration for e.g. intellectual, philosophical people (those of a nature that offer some kind of guidance).

    It says something about you, and how the functions are balanced in your Socionic make-up. It is not only that you resemble McNamara that is interesting to discuss, but also the fact that you picked him as a topic for discussion. It reveals some of your focus outside the forum. It reveals a need to associoate yourself with a certain class of people. And (no offense meant) it also reveals that you are not very accepting of yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    You don't, but often there is an emphasis on 'powerful', 'important' people when it is about famous people (and the initiative in the thread is yours). Very similar to my admiration for e.g. intellectual, philosophical people (those of a nature that offer some kind of guidance).

    It says something about you, and how the functions are balanced in your Socionic make-up. It is not only that you resemble McNamara that is interesting to discuss, but also the fact that you picked him as a topic for discussion. It reveals some of your focus outside the forum. It reveals a need to associoate yourself with a certain class of people. And (no offense meant) it also reveals that you are not very accepting of yourself.
    *shrug* I suppose I can do nothing about your projecting of your own motivations, and insecurities, onto me. It doesn't matter, it is of no consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    He seems to be left-handed? I really didn't notice anything distinguishing in his mannerisms, speech or movement from this clip. What seemed LIE about him?
    Well, my typing of LIE came from watching the whole movie, actually in the big screen, years ago. I'm not sure that it's easy to type him just from those clips. If you see the whole movie, I think it's clearer.

    But the fact that you didn't notice anything may suggest that he's just "normal" to you, which may be significant

    And yes, I think he's left handed.
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    LIEs are badass and I love them with every part of my body (including my pee pee)

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    You don't, but often there is an emphasis on 'powerful', 'important' people when it is about famous people (and the initiative in the thread is yours). Very similar to my admiration for e.g. intellectual, philosophical people (those of a nature that offer some kind of guidance).

    It says something about you, and how the functions are balanced in your Socionic make-up. It is not only that you resemble McNamara that is interesting to discuss, but also the fact that you picked him as a topic for discussion. It reveals some of your focus outside the forum. It reveals a need to associoate yourself with a certain class of people. And (no offense meant) it also reveals that you are not very accepting of yourself.
    It's probably more likely that powerful and important people are more widely-known than his plumber. That's why he uses them as examples, just like everybody does in this forum anyway.
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    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I've not met you, but for what it's worth, I'm pretty good at getting a feel for the way people act, and the way I've imagined you behaving is extremely similar to McNamara, except I've imagined you being a little bit more shy and kind of hyper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    I've not met you, but for what it's worth, I'm pretty good at getting a feel for the way people act, and the way I've imagined you behaving is extremely similar to McNamara, except I've imagined you being a little bit more shy and kind of hyper.
    Yes, could be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suomea View Post
    Confused by this..... could you please elaborate.....
    It's my version of niffweed's seemingly nonsensical posts. I find the notion that I would attempt to "promote myself" in such a fashion utterly laughable, revealing much more about those who'd even think such a thing than about me; yet, I am aware of the futility of trying to persuade such people (I mean consentingadult for instance, not yourself) that that's not the case. So, since I see no point in actually debating the issue, but I don't want to say nothing, I posted that picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    I seriously don't understand what consentingadult is going on about.
    As usual, projecting his own issues, and insecurities, and motivations, onto others.

    He used to take for granted that people tried to find their socionics type in order to find their "identity"; then he said that people should not have to find their socionics type for that reason. Of course, he takes, or took, that for granted because those were his motivations, as stated by himself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I'm going to have to double-check, but now that I think about it, wasn't Robert McNamara also president of the World Bank too?
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    He was.

    And one could argue that neither his time at the World Bank nor at the Pentagon would make anyone want to be his identical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    The World Bank has been for a long time a point of controversy and contention for mainly anthropologists, political scientists, and economists.
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