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Thread: LIE-LSI Mirage/Illusionary relations (ISTj & ENTj)

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    Default LIE-LSI Mirage/Illusionary relations (ISTj & ENTj)

    What's the best way an ISTj male can pursue an ENTj female?
    ISTj.

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    1) Show clearly that you're interested and like her - in a constant way
    2) Forget that you have Fe dual-seeking - do not expect her to put you on a good mood or to shower you with a big smile, laughs, hugs and the like.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    1) Show clearly that you're interested and like her - in a constant way
    2) Forget that you have Fe dual-seeking - do not expect her to put you on a good mood or to shower you with a big smile, laughs, hugs and the like.
    Yes. Also, the two of you will probably enjoy talking about Ni matters, and you're both Positivists... so don't be afraid to tell her all of your future plans/dreams/desires/whatever. Her confidence in your ability to accomplish these things and desire to talk about them will be inspiring. After the "honey moon" phase of the relationship wears off, she'll be looking for more Fi and you'll be looking for more Fe... so for the long term success of the relationship, frank communication about these matters is very important. I think in the beginning of a relationship with our illusionary partners, each of us is caught off guard by the fulfillment of our hidden agendas. Things seem so perfect, and we just assume that the person is fulfilling out dual seeking function as well. When we figure out that they're not, it's a pretty big shock, and things can go downhill quickly if you're not prepared.

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    That depends only on how Se you are, and how Ni she is. If she's very Ni, then you might have a chance, if you're very Se. My only advice would be to always reciprocate when she shares her feelings (supposedly that you do) even if you don't feel the need to do so. Also, you can expect her to entertain you with jokes etc, but don't expect enthusiasm in saying "HELLO!". I have experience with my father and I can see that sometimes he's looking for a very loud "Hello" or something like that. Still, that's not really the biggest problem that might arise. The only real problem I foresee is when you two have to do something toghether, and you keep asking questions to understand all the "system" behind it. Don't do this really. It should be easy if you know it beforehand, but don't do it. Good luck anyway.

    As far as approaching her, just approach her like every girl - ask her out. Then ask her out some more, etc etc
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    As far as approaching her, just approach her like every girl - ask her out. Then ask her out some more, etc etc
    I would definitely have to advise against that. This strategy works like magic with Ni dominants, but an ENTj would probably very much dislike this. Lemme explain...

    In irrational Victim/Aggressor relations, the Aggressor is both the initiator and the one who actually makes things happen.

    In rational Victim/Aggressor relations, the Aggressor is the one who actually makes things happen, but the Victim is the initiator.

    Just put yourself in a position to be around her, and watch her. Ask yourself why she's doing whatever she is that she's doing, especially if it involves you. If she is interested, she will set up situations in which you'll be given opportunities to make things happen. The key is to respond decisively when she gives you cues to, but don't try to make things happen before she's given you those cues. This may be a little bit difficult because an ISTj would naturally look for cues to take on Fe form, but they won't with an ENTj. If you're not sure, the safest bet it so watch for a moment of awkward silence where she looks like she's waiting for or expecting you to do something. When this happens, act.

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    Am I mistaken when I get the idea that LIEs like to be optimistic, upbeat and enthusiastic? It just seems that from some impressions I am getting, they are not typically like this.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Am I mistaken when I get the idea that LIEs like to be optimistic, upbeat and enthusiastic? It just seems that from some impressions I am getting, they are not typically like this.
    No, they are. More so sometimes than others, but overall they're more like that than most.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Am I mistaken when I get the idea that LIEs like to be optimistic, upbeat and enthusiastic? It just seems that from some impressions I am getting, they are not typically like this.
    They (we?) are but there is a difference with the ENFjs (assuming I have typed them correctly!). Their emotions seem to be more "purposeful" whereas LIE emotions seem to be more stable-happy and without really a "reason".
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee
    the ENTj emotions (i know two typical ones pretty well) usually always accompany them. when they talk, they get quite emotional at times, like smiling and having the emotional tone to speech, which makes them like almost on the verge of laughing but not quite, they don't usually burst out laughing. when they meet you, they are always positive emotionally and happy, very easy, very good, some of the nicest people i'd say. from what descriptions say, these Fe are supposed to tone up their usually concerned/frightened-looking dual.
    maximization of positive emotions, the descriptions say. But some positive emotions have to be there to be maximized
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee
    from what descriptions say, these Fe are supposed to tone up their usually concerned/frightened-looking dual.
    While ENTjs do put their dual's at ease, it's most certainly not through the use of Fe. And I wouldn't call ISFjs "frightened-looked". Concerened or worried, perhaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by dee
    from what descriptions say, these Fe are supposed to tone up their usually concerned/frightened-looking dual.
    While ENTjs do put their dual's at ease, it's most certainly not through the use of Fe.
    Depends on whether the concern is realistic or not. If it is realistic, Te and Ni will be used. If the concern is over a really mind (or nonexistant) matter, Fe will be used.
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    How so?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    How so?
    jokes and crap like that to distract from nonexistant worst case scenarios
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I don't see why that has to be Fe (or why an ISFj would respond well to it if it was), but that's not really important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I don't see why that has to be Fe (or why an ISFj would respond well to it if it was), but that's not really important.
    look at stratsevskaya description of entj's fe, if you wish

    In the contact he manifests the friendliness, knows how to be communicable, diplomaticallly he tries to find common language in any company, he knows how to be charming [ --]. He values a good humor, joke, charges all by his merriment and optimism, he loves to tell anecdotes and because of this characteristic, the ENTjs soothens and calms his eternally worried dual the ISFj.
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    I see where you're getting that from, but as is common in her descriptions, I think stratsevskaya is attributing some of what she's describing to the wrong function. ENTj/ISFj playfulness is more Se/Ni than Fe, and the Fe that ENTjs use to joke (and whatnot) comforting ISFjs has more to do with things going well in the company of those the ISFj is not very familiar with than it does the interactions between the ENTj and the ISFj.

    The interaction between the 7th and 3rd functions in dual pairs is interesting... we have more patience for and place more importance on our 3rd function than our dual do their 7th. Our duals tell us that the things that we are concerned with related to our 3rd functions don't matter (because they see their 1st function as being more important), and we use our 1st function to explain why they do. Between our dual explaining things related to our 5th function and us explaining things related to our 1st function, an agreement over matters related to our 3rd function/their 7th function.

    So anyways, if an ENTj wants to make an ISFj feel at ease about a situation, it's done with Ni or Te. Part of that may involve the ENTj using Fe with others, but the ISFj doesn't need or benefit from the ENTj's Fe.

    That's my understanding at least.

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    And ENTjs/ISFjs do not value Fe. Quadra values are one of the most basic concepts in Socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee
    i agree, but you gotta admit all functions are used and all of them are useful in particular situations.
    Yeah, like dealing with someone who's not your dual.

    like 8th Si say would cater for 4th Si, etc.
    Cover for, not cater to. ISFjs use Se to communicate their Si desires to ENTjs. ENTjs need only comply with the ISFj's Se demands in order for the ISFj to take care of Si concerns for both of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I see where you're getting that from, but as is common in her descriptions, I think stratsevskaya is attributing some of what she's describing to the wrong function.
    And you wonder why I don't take them seriously...

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    The observations are still good ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    And ENTjs/ISFjs do not value Fe. Quadra values are one of the most basic concepts in Socionics.
    Only because you have a prejudice against Fe

    Let me give you a real-life example of what I mean. ISFj and ENTj are in the woods, near the mountains. A storm is visible at the opposite side of the sky, but it's clearly not dangerous. The ISFjs asks "What if a thunder strikes one of these trees and we both end up incinerated???" (not jokingly). A response like "You see that storm is 231321 kms afar and it is travelling at 30 mphs and so it will need 1 hour and half to get here" isn't particularly effective. Instead something like "Oh! Look at that vouyer watching us! That is indeed more dangerous than a thunder! Actually, let's start making out so that he has something to photograph". This indeed uses Fe because the mood is changed for the better.

    The kind of Fe ENTj's aren't good at using is the one directed towards multiple people/crowds, which is instead typical domain of ENFjs.

    Cover for, not cater to. ISFjs use Se to communicate their Si desires to ENTjs. ENTjs need only comply with the ISFj's Se demands in order for the ISFj to take care of Si concerns for both of them.
    Desire? Demands? Comply? Sorry but I don't see that much ISFjs truly bossing ENTjs around unless there is an emergency situation/unless the ISFj is very nervous for some reason.
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    She's just saying that just because Stratievskaya attributed that particular observation of behavior to Fe, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily Fe. She's not questioning the actual behavior, just the functional explanation of it. I think it's a reasonable position.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    She's just saying that just because Stratievskaya attributed that particular observation of behavior to Fe, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily Fe. She's not questioning the actual behavior, just the functional explanation of it. I think it's a reasonable position.
    And what would you attribute that to? It's an example of steering the emotional atmosphere, even if the "group" is composed of only two people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    And ENTjs/ISFjs do not value Fe. Quadra values are one of the most basic concepts in Socionics.
    Only because you have a prejudice against Fe
    I am not going to debate the existence of quadra values with you.

    Let me give you a real-life example of what I mean. ISFj and ENTj are in the woods, near the mountains. A storm is visible at the opposite side of the sky, but it's clearly not dangerous. The ISFjs asks "What if a thunder strikes one of these trees and we both end up incinerated???" (not jokingly). A response like "You see that storm is 231321 kms afar and it is travelling at 30 mphs and so it will need 1 hour and half to get here" isn't particularly effective. Instead something like "Oh! Look at that vouyer watching us! That is indeed more dangerous than a thunder! Actually, let's start making out so that he has something to photograph". This indeed uses Fe because the mood is changed for the better.
    First of all, thunder does not strike.

    That aside, I cannot fathom this working well on an ISFj. What would probably work? Something along the lines of, "Those clouds are North of us, and the wind is blowing North East. It's not going to hit us. And when I checked the weather forecast before we left it said that storms may develop tonight, but not until after midnight. Besides, if the storm looks like it's heading this way we can always turn around, or cut through the woods if we have to. It'll be fine."

    Anyways... Your story is clearly not an example of typical ENTj/ISFj interactions. The "ENTj" in your example seems to be taking a more Se response than anything, if I interpreted the tone correctly.

    The kind of Fe ENTj's aren't good at using is the one directed towards multiple people/crowds, which is instead typical domain of ENFjs.
    No. ENTjs use Fe in groups, professionally, or whenever else they see a need to in order to accomplish something. It's about "speaking the language of the natives", and they don't use it on those who they know not to value it. It's sort of like... ENTjs can see that Fe is very important to a lot of people, and understand why those people respond the way they do in certain situations. They are capable of giving them what they want, Fe wise, in order to accomplish their Te objectives. They don't mind doing this, but they won't unless they see a specific reason to.

    Cover for, not cater to. ISFjs use Se to communicate their Si desires to ENTjs. ENTjs need only comply with the ISFj's Se demands in order for the ISFj to take care of Si concerns for both of them.
    Desire? Demands? Comply? Sorry but I don't see that much ISFjs truly bossing ENTjs around unless there is an emergency situation/unless the ISFj is very nervous for some reason.
    For example, let's say the ENTj and ISFj are planning a trip and the ENTj is looking for a hotel to book.

    ENTj: Okay, I think I found the best choice. It's cheap and the location is good.
    ISFj: *Looks at the hotel's profile on ENTj's computer screen* That place looks nasty. It's a two star hotel. And why is it only $50 a night? I don't want to stay there.
    ENTj: It looks like the best one in that price range. The next option is $129 a night.
    ISFj: Let me see that one.
    ENTj: *pulls up that hotels profile*
    ISFj: That one looks way better. It's a nice hotel chain. How close is it?
    ENTj: It's about 10 minutes further from the area we'll be spending the day at.
    ISFj: Let's stay there. Seriously, I really do not want to stay in the other hotel.
    ENTj: Okay.

    The idea here is that the ENTj has no qualms about staying in a not so nice hotel (not totally nasty, but not very nice either) or shopping in an ugly grocery store or driving a noisy car or whatever... but the ISFj will say "No, I want it this for because *insert Si reason here*," and when the ISFj puts his/her foot down, the ENTj doesn't mind and will go along with what the ISFj wants.

    And what would you attribute that to? It's an example of steering the emotional atmosphere, even if the "group" is composed of only two people.
    Ni/Se playfulness. Fe is not the only "fun" or "pleasant" or "enjoyable" function.

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    Evidently, we have such noncoincident understandings of socionics and life experiences that it's impossible for us to communicate effectively.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    For example, let's say the ENTj and ISFj are planning a trip and the ENTj is looking for a hotel to book.

    ENTj: Okay, I think I found the best choice. It's cheap and the location is good.
    ISFj: *Looks at the hotel's profile on ENTj's computer screen* That place looks nasty. It's a two star hotel. And why is it only $50 a night? I don't want to stay there.
    ENTj: It looks like the best one in that price range. The next option is $129 a night.
    ISFj: Let me see that one.
    ENTj: *pulls up that hotels profile*
    ISFj: That one looks way better. It's a nice hotel chain. How close is it?
    ENTj: It's about 10 minutes further from the area we'll be spending the day at.
    ISFj: Let's stay there. Seriously, I really do not want to stay in the other hotel.
    ENTj: Okay.

    The idea here is that the ENTj has no qualms about staying in a not so nice hotel (not totally nasty, but not very nice either) or shopping in an ugly grocery store or driving a noisy car or whatever... but the ISFj will say "No, I want it this for because *insert Si reason here*," and when the ISFj puts his/her foot down, the ENTj doesn't mind and will go along with what the ISFj wants.

    And what would you attribute that to? It's an example of steering the emotional atmosphere, even if the "group" is composed of only two people.
    Ni/Se playfulness. Fe is not the only "fun" or "pleasant" or "enjoyable" function.
    lol that actually sounds like me (the ISFj.)
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    ISFj still isn't out of the question for your type.

    I'm trying to think of a way to describe ESFp/INTp relations in a similar manner. The best example I can think of is from Rocky 2 when they're in the process of buying a house (and when they got home after getting married, though that demonstrates a different aspect of ESFp/INTp duality). If you haven't seen that, I definitely recommend that you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    1) Show clearly that you're interested and like her - in a constant way
    2) Forget that you have Fe dual-seeking - do not expect her to put you on a good mood or to shower you with a big smile, laughs, hugs and the like.
    Yes I tried to charm her with but that didn't seem to work, while slightly intoxicated. Now I'm afraid she'll think I'm a 'jerk' as Gamma women supposedly are famous for having a predisposition for casting people as 'jerks'. I'm not a jerk though, I do care about her and want a long term relationship. Which is the best way to go about it, to attract an ENTj. I've heard ENTjs put great stock in being indepedent, how can I overcome this? Should I show that I'm interested in her by sharing ideas, and by offering a sympathetic ear? How should I convey that I'm interested in her, and that I want a long term relationship with her?
    ISTj.

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    Default Mirage aka illusionary relations ISTj and ENTj

    My ENTj friend and I are involved in a project. He's got more hierachy than me, so he decides who's in the project and who's not.

    Recently an ISTj came in and started to consolidate his power at the expense of both of us. I mean, this guy pretends to have all the information, take all the decisions and pretty much become the local dictator. Obviously, when I try to propose a solution for a problem he almost never agrees with me, but knowing about socionics has allowed me to have a better understanding of the situation and keep conflict to zero. I don't think he's a bad person; on the contrary, he probably believes in his own mind that he's more capable than anyone else and then he should be the one taking the decisions.

    The specific problem is this:

    a) My friend has a poor understanding of the kind of relationship he has with different persons. Neither of us know this person, but he already trusts him too much.

    b) I made the mistake to warn him about this person and now he treats me very coldly, as if I were the stranger and not his friend.

    c) He's abstract after all and is delighted with the idea of having someone who does the actual work. So he's allowing this guy to take over pretty much about everything.

    d) This person has the same hirachy level as I do, but both of us are under my friend. So the guy is going to take a lot of decisions, but he will not be responsible for them. I fear that if something goes wrong, the one paying for it will be my friend and not the guy.

    What do you recommend me about it?
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    I have no idea. It is horrible when this happens. It is like, all forms of teamwork fall apart when an unhealthy-ish Se creative shows up, particularly ISTjs.

    They seem extremely detrimental to organizations, IMO. Yet in their own minds, they are making everything better.


    Not all of them, but like,.... there have been many situations where they don't make things go smoothly at all, and it is more about "them" than actually making progress.
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    Last edited by betterthandead; 08-03-2008 at 05:12 PM.

  33. #33
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    What kind of decisions is the ISTj taking? Only small-scale ones, or also large-scale?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Default Re: ENTj being taken over by an ISTj

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    What do you recommend me about it?
    Dunno... fight for power? (c:

    Gonna take a leap here: use you N to see what his decisions will bring and what other venues you could take, friendlily point out how they could be better, then sneakily make your ENTj friend notice how the ISTj's decisions would have caused damage, especially to him since he's the leader.

    Can I ask you if you perceive there to be a struggle or if it happens naturally? I'm beginning to see what Courage means.
    LSI

  35. #35
    Éminence grise mikemex's Avatar
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    After years of "friendship" this "friend" gave me his back and now I'm out of the project, and pretty much out of anything. I don't even know why.

    Haha... poor guy. I'll feel shame for him. I just realized so many things. He always used to complain about being alone and how people betrays him and such, but in reality it's the opposite: he creates the situations and then blames others. He likes to feel like a victim.

    Lesson learned: victims create shit and then complain that it stinks.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

    You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life.
    - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_maguoo View Post
    Which is the best way to go about it, to attract an ENTj. I've heard ENTjs put great stock in being indepedent, how can I overcome this? Should I show that I'm interested in her by sharing ideas, and by offering a sympathetic ear? How should I convey that I'm interested in her, and that I want a long term relationship with her?
    I second this question. Also, are ISTjs required to verbalize feelings to a ENTj in a manner which we (not valuing Fi) would find excessive/suffocating? I'm not sure how to make them feel secure in a relationship.

  37. #37
    EffyCold thePirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_maguoo View Post
    Yes I tried to charm her with but that didn't seem to work, while slightly intoxicated. Now I'm afraid she'll think I'm a 'jerk' as Gamma women supposedly are famous for having a predisposition for casting people as 'jerks'. I'm not a jerk though, I do care about her and want a long term relationship. Which is the best way to go about it, to attract an ENTj. I've heard ENTjs put great stock in being indepedent, how can I overcome this? Should I show that I'm interested in her by sharing ideas, and by offering a sympathetic ear? How should I convey that I'm interested in her, and that I want a long term relationship with her?
    Well, there's always telling her.

    I don't get these threads, why do you assume you have to act differently around her then any other girl?

    Attraction is pretty much universal for the most part
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakealittle View Post
    I second this question. Also, are ISTjs required to verbalize feelings to a ENTj in a manner which we (not valuing Fi) would find excessive/suffocating? I'm not sure how to make them feel secure in a relationship.
    You're a girl, right? No, I don't think that would be problematic to accept for an ENTj at all, if what you are verbalizing are your personal feelings. After all if you think about it ESFps are their activity partners and sometimes can be over-the-top with it, too. So no problem with that.

    I think the main obstacle is, that you should avoid being excessively stubborn when you're arguing (I don't argue a lot with ISTjs, but when I do, it can go on literally for hours because neither will give up) - he could avoid too, but since he doesn't know about socionics...
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    You're a girl, right? No, I don't think that would be problematic to accept for an ENTj at all, if what you are verbalizing are your personal feelings. After all if you think about it ESFps are their activity partners and sometimes can be over-the-top with it, too. So no problem with that.

    I think the main obstacle is, that you should avoid being excessively stubborn when you're arguing (I don't argue a lot with ISTjs, but when I do, it can go on literally for hours because neither will give up) - he could avoid too, but since he doesn't know about socionics...
    Yup, I'm a girl. I'm not sure if you understood me correctly? I don't feel a need to express sentiments but I've read over posts (quite a few of yours, actually, they've been really insightful) that ENTjs like/need to be reassured frequently. It sounds to me like LIEs would feel closest to those who convey their thoughts/feelings to them? If so, what do you find to be reassuring? Examples would be good.

    I have found out how stubborn both parties can be. I naturally back off when I can see they're intent on their views and pretend to be thankful for their advice (don't worry though, my gratitude to you before was genuine, lol). With that said though, I still heart ENTjs a lot. But I wonder if the illusionary LSI-LIE relationship is good enough long term, especially without an ethical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    In irrational Victim/Aggressor relations, the Aggressor is both the initiator and the one who actually makes things happen.

    In rational Victim/Aggressor relations, the Aggressor is the one who actually makes things happen, but the Victim is the initiator.
    this is very good, and true i m e

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